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Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:36 PM

Indictments Today

Yesterday's indictments of 12 Russian military intelligence officers was outstanding. It's fair to say that Trump and others from his campaign and transition teams are “captives” of the Russian indictments. There has been some outstanding analysis, both in the media and here on this forum. I'd like to add a few thoughts to the discussion.

The first thing is that people should not get their hopes up that Trump et al will be charged with treason. In its common usage, “treason” is the most accurate description of what they knowingly did. In that sense – and that sense alone – people are correct in calling it treason. But in the legal sense, as defined by constitutional law, there is zero chance that they will be charged with treason.

It is apparent, however, that Malcolm Nance was correct many months ago, when he said the group will most likely be charged under the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations Act (also known as the RICO statute). We've seen that Mr. Mueller has been charging groups of Russians twice now, which suggests that in the larger domestic case, he is likely to take the same route. And, as Mr. Nance has recently stated, this allows for the listing of Donald Trump as an unindicted co-conspirator. Since he has been absolutely correct on virtually everything since releasing his 2016 book on the hacking of America, I trust his insight and judgment.

Next, a good prosecutor builds a conspiracy case, as everyone knows, by chipping away, both from the fringes and from the weakest links. Then, he/she uses a systematic process to close in on the top targets. Thus, for example, they targeted General Flynn, a weak link. Then, they indicted a group of Russians for internet activities such as their program on Facebook. Next, they indicted the 12 Russian intelligence officers.

Was it a coincidence that these indictments became public yesterday? Malcolm Nance has noted that in intelligence operations, coincidence take planning and hard work. Mr. Mueller is prosecuting cases from counter-intelligence investigations. The indictments against the 12 Russians had been diled as sealed indictments some time ago, and were opened days before Trump meets with Putin. This is a national security issue, that shows how seriously Mr. Mueller considers the upcoming meeting.

Finally, the fact that Mr. Rosenstein had informed Trump that these indictments were coming, apparently the day before Trump left for the NATO business, is also important. It goes a long way in explaining why Trump's meltdown – when he accused Germany of being a captive of Russia – was so ugly. The old fellow is feeling the pressure of the Mueller investigation closing in on him. Likewise, it explains why the republicans questioning Peter Strzok were so unhinged: their attacks upon him target Mr. Mueller by way of Mr. Rosenstein.

These republicans are planning to try to impeach Mr. Rosenstein, to allow Trump cover to fire him. In their current plan, they do not want Mr. Rosenstein to actually face trial, since as he has said, this would allow him access to their e-mail accounts, etc. (Thus, in a congressional hearing, republicans asked if it were true he had threatened those advocating his impeachment.)

Things look bad for Trump and his co-conspirators. Very bad. So we can anticipate that they will attempt more foolish though destructive actions in upcoming weeks. Count on it. And count on Mr. Mueller to counter their desperate attempts to avoid the legal consequences of their criminal, treasonous behaviors.

Peace,
H2O Man

85 replies, 13187 views

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Arrow 85 replies Author Time Post
Reply Indictments Today (Original post)
H2O Man Jul 2018 OP
handmade34 Jul 2018 #1
H2O Man Jul 2018 #14
Xolodno Jul 2018 #81
CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2018 #2
H2O Man Jul 2018 #15
Hayduke Bomgarte Jul 2018 #3
H2O Man Jul 2018 #17
coeur_de_lion Jul 2018 #4
H2O Man Jul 2018 #18
malaise Jul 2018 #5
H2O Man Jul 2018 #19
Pachamama Jul 2018 #54
malaise Jul 2018 #56
Pachamama Jul 2018 #57
RandomAccess Jul 2018 #6
scarletwoman Jul 2018 #8
RandomAccess Jul 2018 #9
scarletwoman Jul 2018 #10
RandomAccess Jul 2018 #11
H2O Man Jul 2018 #21
Scarsdale Jul 2018 #63
H2O Man Jul 2018 #66
cilla4progress Jul 2018 #27
handmade34 Jul 2018 #36
RandomAccess Jul 2018 #38
H2O Man Jul 2018 #40
FakeNoose Jul 2018 #7
calimary Jul 2018 #20
H2O Man Jul 2018 #23
H2O Man Jul 2018 #22
blue-wave Jul 2018 #12
H2O Man Jul 2018 #24
blue-wave Jul 2018 #29
H2O Man Jul 2018 #77
handmade34 Jul 2018 #37
warmfeet Jul 2018 #13
H2O Man Jul 2018 #25
SHRED Jul 2018 #16
H2O Man Jul 2018 #26
cilla4progress Jul 2018 #30
cilla4progress Jul 2018 #28
H2O Man Jul 2018 #41
cilla4progress Jul 2018 #42
H2O Man Jul 2018 #44
Guilded Lilly Jul 2018 #31
H2O Man Jul 2018 #43
Guilded Lilly Jul 2018 #64
H2O Man Jul 2018 #78
Sophia4 Jul 2018 #32
H2O Man Jul 2018 #45
Sophia4 Jul 2018 #47
KentuckyWoman Jul 2018 #33
Pacifist Patriot Jul 2018 #35
H2O Man Jul 2018 #46
Awsi Dooger Jul 2018 #79
jaysunb Jul 2018 #80
Takket Jul 2018 #34
H2O Man Jul 2018 #49
Sophia4 Jul 2018 #58
spanone Jul 2018 #39
H2O Man Jul 2018 #50
kentuck Jul 2018 #48
H2O Man Jul 2018 #51
kentuck Jul 2018 #55
H2O Man Jul 2018 #73
kentuck Jul 2018 #75
Oneironaut Jul 2018 #52
H2O Man Jul 2018 #53
DonaldsRump Jul 2018 #59
PearliePoo2 Jul 2018 #61
H2O Man Jul 2018 #70
PearliePoo2 Jul 2018 #84
H2O Man Jul 2018 #85
sellitman Jul 2018 #60
H2O Man Jul 2018 #68
PearliePoo2 Jul 2018 #62
H2O Man Jul 2018 #69
kpete Jul 2018 #65
H2O Man Jul 2018 #71
PatrickforO Jul 2018 #67
H2O Man Jul 2018 #72
orangecrush Jul 2018 #74
H2O Man Jul 2018 #76
Blue_Roses Jul 2018 #82
H2O Man Jul 2018 #83

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:49 PM

1. just...

thinking of the Rosenberg's of late... oh the irony, and how things have changed

"...Julius and Ethel Rosenberg went to their deaths affirming their innocence and proclaiming their guilt to have been the result of a witch hunt against...Americans who only wanted peace with the Soviet Union...

The Rosenbergs were charged and found guilty of “conspiracy to commit espionage,” which requires a commission of one overt act, to be found guilty by a jury"

Eisenhower stated, “I can only say that, by immeasurably increasing the chances of atomic war, the Rosenberg's may have condemned to death tens of millions of innocent people all over the world. The execution of two human beings is a grave matter. But even graver is the thought of the millions of dead whose deaths may be directly attributable to what these spies have done."




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Response to handmade34 (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:37 PM

14. Thank you.

I think Ethel was likely innocent. Certainly the ancestors of today's alt-right was cheering for their deaths, while today's version supports Trump in a cultish way.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:55 PM

81. In agreement that Ethel was probably innocent.

...another reason why I'm against the death penalty.

Even then, did this treason warrant the death penalty? The Soviet Union was well on its way in developing the "bomb". It was only a matter of time. The Rosenberg's only pushed up the time table and one could argue, it wasn't that much.

Commentary:

As much as we denounce as well as every other country, Russia's meddling in our elections, the sad story is, the rest of the world is going to say "well, you did it to us/neighbor/ally/ etc." Many on DU will denounce this and me for it, but it is reality. Hence why the world "out cry" has never really materialized.

Hindsight is 20/20...or better. The TEA Party was born out of opposition to the "black guy" in office. A foreign nation saw the opportunity to use that against the country. The real question is, how many other nations were either on board with it...or chose to ignore it?

GWB and his master Cheney, didn't exactly make a lot of "friends" abroad.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:05 PM

2. Well said, as always, my dear H20 Man.

I know that when situations become complex and difficult to follow, your prose will help clarify what is going on. This post today does just that.

I thank you!

Keep 'em coming.



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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:37 PM

15. Well, thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:28 PM

3. I've said for many years

That the gop, as an entity, should be subject to the RICO act and that any other "organization" that did a fraction of what the goops are doing and have done would be charged with RICO. Every member is complicit. If not by actual hands on criminal act, then by their silence and implied consent.

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Response to Hayduke Bomgarte (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:42 PM

17. I agree!

There are a number of republicans in the House -- and I'm not sure about the Senate, but wouldn't be surprised -- who have benefitted directly from relationships with Russian "interests." Nunes is but one example.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:44 PM

4. Thank you for clarifying the indictments

I am worried about Rosenstein.

And I am worried about what will happen to Mueller when they impeach him.

Does explain the criminal GOP's behavior past week or so. Assholes.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:43 PM

18. Thanks.

Both of these men know who the enemy is, and understand the nature of the beast. They are preparing to slay it.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:46 PM

5. K & R

I can't wait.
I expect more than a few people to be in Manafort's current situation.

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Response to malaise (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:46 PM

19. Thank you.

I think the door is closing in regard to trying to make a deal in the future, for those who haven't been charged yet. Mr. Mueller's team has enough, that they don't need much more cooperation. Hence, the criminals can only hope from a pardon.

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Response to malaise (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:14 PM

54. +1000

I agree with you dear Malaise....

More than a few....more than a few handfuls of people who are AMERICAN CITIZENS will be in Manaforts' current situation very soon.....

And it will include Trump family members, Trump Campaign employees, employees and associates of organizations like Cambridge Analytica and others (RNC and NRA?) and yes, even some members of Congress....

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Response to Pachamama (Reply #54)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:17 PM

56. That Washington Post Report on

Ryan and keep it in the family remains a smoking gun of collusion and conspiracy.

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Response to malaise (Reply #56)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:21 PM

57. There will be more smoking guns....I am sure of it....



Paul Ryan, Devin Nunes, Dana Rohrbacher.....just to name a few members of Congress....

And there are Senators too....

I for one still want to know WTF the Repuke GOP Senators who went to Russia on the 4th of July really did and why they were there.....

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:48 PM

6. Treason - Laurence Tribe may disagree with you

 

I think the typical rationale for "this isn't technically treason" is that there's no war going on --

HOWEVER, several people, including Tribe, have noted that those indicted are members of the MILITARY, and doesn't make the interference attacks of war?

- Laurence Tribe @tribelaw
US citizens who work with a foreign power to “levy war against the United States” are guilty of Treason (Article III, US Constitution.) It was the Russian *military* that levied the cyberattack charged in the grand jury indictment obtained by Mueller today. “War” or not? Hmmm. .
8:51 PM - Jul 13, 2018




And here's an article by former REPUBLICAN Congressman Tom Coleman:

It's Not a Liberal Fantasy to Ask if Trump Committed Treason
https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-a-liberal-fantasy-to-ask-if-trump-committed-treason

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:36 PM

8. Wow! That piece by Tom Coleman needs to have an OP of its own! nt

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #8)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:39 PM

9. It actually does

 

I probably should've posted it --

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210869331

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #9)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:43 PM

10. Oh, thank you for the link! I obviously missed that post!

Much appreciated!

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #10)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:45 PM

11. You're welcome

 

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:53 PM

21. Respectfully disagree.

I have the utmost respect for Laurence Tribe. His new book on impeachment is a must read. If you haven't gotten to read it yet, I think you'd really enjoy it.

What Trump et al have done is treason. I noted that in the OP. Professor Tribe uses the Constitution to highlight that it is. While I could not speak for him, I am 100% confident that, if asked, he would say that there is no chance of their being charged with treason. In his book, he even expresses a lot of concern about what might take place in the streets of America, if Trump is impeached and convicted. His concerns are valid

More, the prosecutors have a much stronger, more certain case under RICO and/or other federal statutes.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:25 PM

63. Wait. There are more of us

than there are of them. tRump supporters are loud and angry, but are outnumbered by sane, rational democratic supporters. In London the crowds were estimated in the hundreds of thousands, all peacefully demonstrating. A handful of tRump supporters were bloodied in a fistfight at their own march! Who behaved more civilized? Thankfully there were no guns involved.

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Response to Scarsdale (Reply #63)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:38 PM

66. I agree.

Our side is civilized. We believe that a non-violent approach that follows the rule of law as defined by the Constitution is the best option.

A significant portion of our opposition is uncivilized. The only part of the Constitution that they cling to is the Bill of Rights' second amendment.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:27 PM

27. Actually, there IS a war going on.

Just not a conventional war.

We and others are under attack from Russia.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #27)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 07:07 AM

36. I believe so as well...

at the same time, I believe that here in the United States we are actively engaged in a Civil War... not in the conventional way, but...

I know there is a fun meme out there alluding to #thesecondcivilwar but I really believe that it is happening in real time...


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Response to handmade34 (Reply #36)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:33 AM

38. Yes -- someone, can't remember who --

 

called what we're going through a Cold Civil War. It fits, the more I think about it the more it fits.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #27)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:16 AM

40. Sure. You are correct.

And it is different. Those differences create a gray area in this case, that would make a prosecution for treason risky, versus a RICO or similar charges, which are a pretty sure thing. Prosecutors tend to avoid risks when there are equally good sure things.

First, to try this as treason would require the federal government to hold that "meddling" in foreign elections is warfare. That would be admitting that a large amount of US foreign policy since WW2 has been literal acts of war. While that may be accurate, our government isn't likely to task that approach.

Second, it is not as clearly defined as selling government secrets -- say, blueprints for weapons, or identifying CIA agents. Rather, it was accepting stolen information about an opposition party, which is not "the government," as well as accepting financial rewards by way of money laundering. These are far, far easier to prove to a jury as a series of criminal acts as part of a RICO charge.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:20 PM

7. I appreciate your insights

Thanks for posting this H2O Man!

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:52 PM

20. They're always worth the read.

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Response to calimary (Reply #20)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:54 PM

23. Thanks, calimary

I hope my essays are worth reading.

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:54 PM

22. Thank you!

I appreciate that!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:32 PM

12. K&R

But I hope you're wrong about the treason charges. If anyone committed treason against the United States of America, treason charges must be brought to bear. If they are not, the unintended effect will be an open door for others to commit the same reprehensible acts.

The republicons are melting down due to increasing pressure. But this also increases the stress on our side to start indicting and prosecuting quickly. If not, Trump will fire Mueller, Rosenstein or anyone else he chooses. It is time to prove that we are a nation of laws.

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Response to blue-wave (Reply #12)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:16 PM

24. Well said.

If we lived in a healthy society, those people would be prosecuted for treason. And it would be easier, because in a healthy society, Trump would never have been taken seriously as a candidate for any public office. In fact, he'd have been incarcerated years ago, on both financial and sexual convictions.

This is, as you note, a struggle to prove that we are a nation of laws.

Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:44 PM

29. Thanks for the compliment

You have over 59,000 posts, so you've obviously been here awhile. I am truly flattered. And I agree, we live in an unhealthy society. For the sake of everyone, I hope and pray we can find an antidote sometime soon.

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Response to blue-wave (Reply #29)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:32 PM

77. Well, sure!

Just stating the fact that you nailed it. I really appreciate intelligent, insightful discussions. So thank you!

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Response to blue-wave (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 07:09 AM

37. "It is time to prove that we are a nation of laws"

well said!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:36 PM

13. K & R.

I couldn't agree more.

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Response to warmfeet (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:17 PM

25. Thanks, warmfeet!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:38 PM

16. Good post

 

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Response to SHRED (Reply #16)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:18 PM

26. Thank you.

By any chance have you read Mr. Nance's new book? I haven't yet. I'm sure it's good, but I'm curious if you (or others) have read it.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #26)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:03 PM

30. Just downloaded it

On my library app.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:32 PM

28. H2O Man,

I think I only disagree as to I believe trump and the gop congress don't need a reason to be vile and profane.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #28)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:22 AM

41. I agree.

But when Trump hits the high notes of "vile and profane," it comes right after he has felt 'attacked." It follows just as surely as day follows night.

His comments that are being reported today, about who he identifies as his "foe," suggest he is feeling pressure regarding his meeting with Putin tomorrow. I suspect that this pressure is not limited to the media coverage linking the indictments to his meeting. Some in his administration, as well as some republican Senators, have communicated just how bad this looks.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #41)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:25 AM

42. Your threads

Always elevate.

Thank you!

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #42)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:32 AM

44. Oh, thank you!

You are very kind. I do try to write things that clarify the turmoil around us, and hope they are of interest to at least some people here. So I appreciate your kindness!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:15 PM

31. I can't pretend for a moment to be astute enough to understand the intricacies of...

These legal issues.

I do know that our country is under attack. Internally as well as from threatening foreign regimes. It is a multiplayer/multilayer heinous war on our Democracy, our freedoms, our lives, our earth and our livelihoods that has been in the planning for a very long time.

The Perfect Storm of the Perfect conman frontman of the Cretin has opened the floodgates of unchallenged corruption. He was the best gift wrapped in the most stained, fouled wrapping paper.

His public persona is genuinely and rightly one of an unfit egomaniacal charlatan who could quite possibly be proven mentally ill were it needed to defend him from any serious indictments. They gleefully promote his obnoxiousness and count on the media to chase the inane and repulsive.

They know this. He was/is the perfect tool for them. He plays to the truly Stupid, dense, thick -skulled and ugliest of Americans who have for a generation, at least, been soullessly primed on Reality Show ignoramus mentality.

The powers that are planning the take down of this treachery must be as perfect as the perfect corruption they fight.

Thank-you for your words and assurances to those of us who are reeling daily from the migraine level nightmare and bombardment from characterless thugs of this war.

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Response to Guilded Lilly (Reply #31)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:30 AM

43. Right. Exactly right.

You summed up in six paragraphs the essence of the extremely important book, "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump," in which 26 psychiatrists explain that Trump is a sociopath. As a retired psychiatric social worker, the most glaring feature of Donald Trump is his sociopathy. It's more evident to me than the color of his hair. And it provides the correct model for anticipating what his next destructive act will be.

Thank you very much!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #43)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:31 PM

64. Thank you, actually. This is such a horrific struggle, every day.

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Response to Guilded Lilly (Reply #64)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:35 PM

78. It is horrific.

I didn't think this day was coming. Trump posed a clear danger to our country, and the world, but I didn't think he could possibly win the election. And I don't think he did win, for that matter.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:18 PM

32. It might be more certain to charge conspiracy, but I wouldn't count out treason

 

so quickly.

Why?

Because Trump made a point of saying that he views Putin more as a competitor than as an enemy. Well, that may matter.

Consider this possibility. And it is just a possibility. One of the definitions in Article III, section 3 for treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Another is leveying war against the US -- which could be construed as levying cyberwar against the US. I'm not saying that what was done constitutes cyberwar or that Trump will be found to have given aid and comfort to Russia, but it is a possibility.

If Russian officers are found to have hacked into our election-related websites and performed other acts to involve themselves illegally in our election(s), then Russia's government could be viewed as an enemy. And if Trump or his team gave them aid and comfort in some way, then we could have a treason charge.

Other definitions of treason from our Constitution might also apply.

Article III, section 3:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

It's possible. There are a lot of ifs and buts, but it is one possibility. We don't know all the facts yet.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #32)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:35 AM

45. Great points!

Thanks. I agree 100% that this was a case of treason. But what is important, in my opinion, is that prosecutors go for the sure thing. And RICO or very similar, closely related charges provide that certainty, whereas charges of treason put in front of a jury provide unnecessary risks.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #45)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:50 AM

47. Could be. But they will have to decide whether to limit or expand the charges.

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:30 PM

33. I respectfully disagree.

Your views are always thoughtful and measured. I completely understand why your view is what it is. But on this, I disagree with you in strong terms - even as I hope you are correct.

I don't believe Trump is sweating anything. I think he believes he and his inner circle are untouchable. ... and I have no faith in the checks and balance system anymore. He might be right.

The Republican hierarchy put him there on purpose, counting on him to be a worldwide distraction now that we no longer count the dead bodies in the quest for oil profits. They have already lined up the scapegoats.

The modern day Ollie North and Gordon Liddy will go to jail but the White House will go merrily on. 99 bottles of beer on the wall, take one down pass it around, 98 bottles of beer on the wall....

I hope I am wrong.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #33)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 06:35 AM

35. I'm somewhere in the middle.

I do think Trump is sweating and believe his Twitter behavior is evidence of that. However, I fear you are right and we'll see lots of weak link and lower chain conspirators go down while the primary movers and shakers skate.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #33)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:49 AM

46. I'll start by saying

that I hope I'm right, too, but that I recognize your position is as valid as mine, and could well be the outcome. A lot depends upon the November elections.

North and Liddy .....two important references to disgusting criminals from past scandals. Well done! Yet, as horrible of specimens as they were, both had a stronger inner-core than anyone associated with Trump. There is, among the ant-social personality disordered among us in society, a criminal code of honor. That often translates into a willingness to accept consequence, without informing on others. That willingness can, of course, be measured on a graph; low-level, stupid criminals are much easier to "turn" than the top mafia folks. Ass to that the "military" (or "para-military" code of honor of a North or Liddy, and they can be tough nuts to crack.

The closest thing to that around Trump was General Flynn. He was, of course, willing to lie to the FBI. But when they put pressure on him -- specifically in terms of charging his son with related crimes -- his loyalties changed mighty quickly. Unlike General Kelly, he was not willing to sacrifice his son on the alter of his war gods. No Abraham, he. Instead, Flynn flipped as easily as any common high school hoodlum.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #33)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 05:52 PM

79. Multiply by 10 on the crimes...divide by 10 on the consequences

 

Easy formula that will seldom fail with this administration.

We still have occasional threads like this but they earn fewer replies and devotion. I am very impressed that over the past year there are now far more realists and fewer suckers.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #33)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:28 PM

80. You seem to be overlooking the fact that republican primary voters put Trump in position

to capture the nomination. Maybe the hierarchy got on board when the results were inevitable, but the other 16 candidates were not there as stage props, neither were the many never Trump groups just going along as part of some bigger plan to give him the nomination.
That being said, I'm sure there were people in republican leadership and financiers couldn't help but appreciate having a useful tool to carry out their wildest dreams.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:32 PM

34. If treason comes it will be in a second wave

The first wave of charges will be simple, obvious, and total slam dunks. Mueller will move forward with those worthy of not just removing drumpf from office but doing so easily.

After removal and a criminal trial, and drumpf being sentenced to prison (and this is probably years away) he might move forward with a trial for treason if he thinks he can make the case. Such a trial might go to SCOTUS to answered ambiguous questions like...

What is a war? (Hacking, bot armies)

Is it a war if we are attacked and Congress refuses to acknowledge it?

We are once again at a place where we looked to the Constitution to answer questions no one even thought to ask 200 years ago...

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Response to Takket (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:55 AM

49. Outstanding reply!

Wow! I love it! Thank you so much!

You really should make this into an OP.

The Founding Fathers could not have imagined the situation we are in today. Nor could they imagine that women and non-white people were equal to white men. But they were able to create a Constitution that could be viewed as a "living" document. More, as detailed in outstanding detail in Professor Tribe's new book on impeachment, they recognized the extreme dangers that a president, who accepted "help" from a foreign power to enrich themselves, posed.

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Response to Takket (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:23 PM

58. Agreed.

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:36 AM

39. This is so hard to watch. Seeing our country being destroyed from within.

Never thought it would go down this way.

K&R...

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Response to spanone (Reply #39)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:56 AM

50. Absolutely.

It's a fucking nightmare.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:51 AM

48. Trump's decision to ignore the 12 Russians indicted...

...shows his outright contempt for the law in general.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #48)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:59 AM

51. It's disgraceful, kentuck.

Today's news reinforces that. Europe is his foe, and Putin his buddy.

I'm not sure why the mainstream media is asking if Trump will confront Putin. The last time I saw a puppet talk back to the puppeteer was on the Ed Sullivan Show.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #51)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:16 PM

55. And all Republicans share the disgrace.

Trump still calls it a "witch hunt" after getting the intelligence on the Russian cyber attack and all of his supporters fall in line and begin mouthing the same lie. It's like they are cheering the player that scored a touchdown for the other team??

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Response to kentuck (Reply #55)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 03:00 PM

73. They are traitors to this nation.

The lowest form of scum.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #73)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:14 PM

75. Lower than whale shit..

For sure.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:01 PM

52. Yes, but remember, there still has been *0* indictments!

None whatsoever! The Fuhrer said so!

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #52)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:03 PM

53. Exactly!

And each and every one of those zero indictments prove that the Trump campaign is innocent! Witch hunt!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:33 PM

59. One question

This is an excellent post, H20 Man.

I have one question - can the House impeach Rosenstein? I've never seen the US Constitution's impeachment powers used against anyone except a President or a federal judge/justice. Has this ever happened before?

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Response to DonaldsRump (Reply #59)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:14 PM

61. This is my question too. We're in treacherous uncharted waters!


How does impeachment of a Deputy AG work? Would it also go before the Senate for a vote?

Does the mere fact that the House is going to introduce it give BLOTUS cover to fire him? These rat-bastards are desperate and pulling out all the stops!

This is scary as hell. I sure hope there's a backup plan "B"!

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Response to DonaldsRump (Reply #59)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 02:00 PM

70. Great questions

in both this and response #61. As they are closely related, I'll try to answer both here.

Constitution law allows for the legislative branch to impeach officials in either the executive or judicial branch. Such actions are rare, and are almost exclusively undertaken in cases where laws have been broken. I'm not aware of anything remotely similar to what the House republicans hope to accomplish. It is not only unprecedented, but it on its face a very clear abuse of power.

If, under different circumstances, it was known that Rosenstein was fully aware of the Trump-Miller letter justifying the firing of Mr. Comey, which White House counsel strongly advised Trump not to release, and then knowingly wrote his memo on Comey's handling of the Clinton e-mail situation -- providing cover for firing Comey because of the Russian investigation -- the House could impeach Mr. Rosenstein. But that's the difference between shit and sugar.

What they hope to do -- and this is important -- is to impeach Rosenstein, to provide cover for Trump to fire him before the case goes to the Senate to be tried. The House republicans know that Rosenstein's defense could subpoena, among many other things, all of the republicans' communications about Rosenstein and the investigation. This would unmask their coordinating with Trump directly, to interfere with a criminal investigation.

If (and it's a big if) they had the votes to impeach Rosenstein, Trump will fire him within 36 hours, claiming he cannot stand for the taint of corruption in his administration. Keep in mind that a handful of republican Senators have warned Trump not to fire Rosenstein. So he's not going to allow it time to go to trial.

We are talking about a collection of human beings that do not have a bit of Good in them. There is nothing they won't try, for they have literally zero respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, or this country's people.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #70)

Mon Jul 16, 2018, 10:02 AM

84. Thanks for your response!


We'll have to see what Meadows and Jordan's response will be today especially in light of the fact that Trey Gowdy said, "Impeach Rosenstein for WHAT?"
That was a surprise to me given his attack mode during that disgusting farce of a hearing with the FBI agent.
So it doesn't seem like the Freedom Caucus worms have Gowdy on board with their plan.

Looking forward to reading your Part 2 post. Have you written or posted it yet?

Thanks again!


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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:01 PM

60. As usual an educated well thought out piece by one of DU's best.

For whatever it's worth I'm another huge fan of your work.

You make this place special.

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Response to sellitman (Reply #60)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:41 PM

68. Well, thank you!

I'm thinking of posting "part two" of this essay later today. There are three or four very important factors I did not address here .....because even I am aware of my unusually long, perhaps boring, essays on a forum that favors brief OPs. I hope that you will find it equally worthwhile to read.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:20 PM

62. I'm encouraged by reading your extremely well-written and thought out post! Thank you.


I have a question please. Could you (or anyone reading) respond to my post #61 with your opinion?

Thanks!


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Response to PearliePoo2 (Reply #62)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:44 PM

69. Thanks!

I'll try to combine answers to both posts 59 and 61 at the same time. Great questions.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:36 PM

65. I enjoyed every word

I enjoyed every word. I hope you and Malcolm Nance are right. I want to believe.

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Response to kpete (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 02:02 PM

71. Thanks, kpete!

Malcolm had better be right, for our country's future depends upon it.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:40 PM

67. Thank you for your perspective.

I've been seeing lots of these kinds of posts, and boy do I hope you all are right. Like the guy on my signature line says...

RICO Law!

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 02:11 PM

72. Thanks PatrickforO!

I'm pretty confident. (I think that may be a common feature among Irish men named Patrick.)

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:12 PM

74. Thanks, H2O Man!


Great reading!


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Response to orangecrush (Reply #74)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:15 PM

76. Thanks, orangecrush!

Much appreciated.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 10:20 PM

82. Great analysis as always!

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Response to Blue_Roses (Reply #82)

Mon Jul 16, 2018, 09:08 AM

83. Thanks!

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