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Thu Jul 19, 2018, 11:34 PM

Orange Squirrel, Red Sparrow.

Last edited Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

“This world and yonder world are incessantly giving birth: every cause is a mother, its effect the child. When the effect is born, it too becomes a cause and gives birth to wonderous effects. These causes are generation on generation, but it needs a very well lighted eye to see the links in their chain.”
Halal-ad-din Rumi; Persian Sufi poet.


I think the mainstream media is doing a good job in reporting on the Russian-Trump conspiracy scandal. But I believe that they are overlooking a few clearly visible links in the chain in many reports. Perhaps this is due to management's restrictions. Or it could be due to concerns about just where the causes and effects lead.

A significant number of people on MSNBC and CNN, for example, have said that Trump is incapable of separating the Russian crimes from possible collusion, and his ego keeps him from admitting the Russians impacted the election, as it might reflect badly on him. Baloney. He doesn't separate the two, for the simple reason that he knows very well they are as connected as Siamese twins.

Trump is a wanna-be mob boss, who has had connections with various organized crime families over the decades. He welcomed the Russian money in years past. He was as eager to conspire with them to steal the 2016 election as was his son. They were gleeful. Thus, numerous people connected to his campaign, transition team, and administration had meetings with Russians that they have lied about ever since.

While I'm at it, as one fellow recently said on television, does anyone really believe that when some attractive Russian prostitutes showed up at his hotel door, that his up-right character resulted in his saying, “No thank you. I can't do this, because I'm married?” Really?

The only rational explanation for the sum-total of his reactions to this investigation, from day one to today, is his consciousness of guilt. And that sum-total includes over one hundred individual behaviors that each point exactly – and only – to his conscious efforts to cover up and hide his guilt.

There's another important link that needs close examination. To see it properly, we need to understand that political science is part of a larger field of study, sociology. Consider the young lady recently charged with being a Russian spy, who attempted to infiltrate and influence groups including republican politicians, CPAC, and the NRA. Her efforts weren't limited to electing specific candidates, and helping a pro-Russian sect to take control of the republican party. It included planting the seeds of social disruption, by promoting a paranoid gun culture. The implications are clear.

I've said that, to ask this: is it really a good time to argue about differences between the various sub-groups within the Democratic Party? To invest in bitterness from past disagreements? To engage in behaviors that give birth to further divisions? Or might this be a time when we do not have the luxury of in-fighting, a time where we need to set our differences behind us so that we can concentrate upon that which is most urgent?

Peace,
H2O Man

41 replies, 2495 views

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Arrow 41 replies Author Time Post
Reply Orange Squirrel, Red Sparrow. (Original post)
H2O Man Jul 2018 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2018 #1
H2O Man Jul 2018 #11
spanone Jul 2018 #2
H2O Man Jul 2018 #13
uponit7771 Jul 2018 #3
H2O Man Jul 2018 #14
Hekate Jul 2018 #4
H2O Man Jul 2018 #15
pansypoo53219 Jul 2018 #5
H2O Man Jul 2018 #16
ms liberty Jul 2018 #6
Bluepinky Jul 2018 #7
ms liberty Jul 2018 #8
H2O Man Jul 2018 #21
H2O Man Jul 2018 #17
coeur_de_lion Jul 2018 #9
H2O Man Jul 2018 #18
coeur_de_lion Jul 2018 #27
H2O Man Jul 2018 #28
coeur_de_lion Jul 2018 #34
Leith Jul 2018 #10
H2O Man Jul 2018 #19
kentuck Jul 2018 #12
H2O Man Jul 2018 #20
kentuck Jul 2018 #22
H2O Man Jul 2018 #24
eleny Jul 2018 #23
H2O Man Jul 2018 #25
eleny Jul 2018 #26
H2O Man Jul 2018 #30
eleny Jul 2018 #36
H2O Man Jul 2018 #38
eleny Jul 2018 #41
Scurrilous Jul 2018 #29
H2O Man Jul 2018 #31
Historic NY Jul 2018 #32
H2O Man Jul 2018 #33
saidsimplesimon Jul 2018 #35
H2O Man Jul 2018 #39
NBachers Jul 2018 #37
H2O Man Jul 2018 #40

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2018, 11:48 PM

1. Ah, my dear H20 Man...

You always ask the most interesting questions. Tonight's ending question is one of those, and my answer will not surprise you: It is not a good time to have such arguments.

If we want, and expect to win the midterm elections, we must come together in unity to solve the problems the tRump people have bestowed on us. If we are busy infighting each other, we will miss our opportunity to fight them.

Our survival as a free people is in doubt and that is the urgent situation that we must concentrate upon.

Thank you for your great post!

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:22 AM

11. Thanks!

We have a real opportunity to save our constitutional democracy. Our opposition is thus intent upon preventing our making a unified front. It doesn't take great insight to guess what the opposition's tactics will be -- divide and conquer. We can identify such efforts on internet sites, not limited to Facebook. More, we can see the effects, when otherwise sincere Democrats post divisive nonsense. As I noted, we do not have the luxury of engaging in such foolishness today.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2018, 11:51 PM

2. 100% K&R...

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Response to spanone (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:28 AM

13. Thank you.

If we were to suspend disbelief for a moment, and imagine if Trump really did not conspire with the Russians, common sense would indicate that Trump's public and private position would be very different. Indeed, were he not guilty as sin, he would have immediately addressed the nation, saying that Putin had made the worst mistake of his lifetime, by helping elect a president who would do everything possible to protect his country. That is, of course, how an innocent person responds. Trump displays the consciousness of guilt daily.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 12:01 AM

3. Someone should send Red Don off to whore school too (from Red Sparrow)

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #3)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:34 AM

14. Back in 1971,

Yoko Ono proposed that when world leaders met, they should be naked. Hence, on the cover of "Sometime in New York City," the picture of Nixon and Mao dancing naked. It was considered as "shocking" at the time. I suspect it was pretty mild when compared to the Trump-Putin private meeting, which was truly obscene.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 12:07 AM

4. Kicking this, H2O Man

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Response to Hekate (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:37 AM

15. Thank you!

I couldn't get to sleep last night, so I got on DU and wrote this essay. Probably normal people across the country were in bed -- I can only speculate on what normal people do, of course -- and so this benefitted from your kick!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:00 AM

5. the GOP has been cheating a long long time, why quit now?

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Response to pansypoo53219 (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:39 AM

16. Right.

Compulsive criminal behavior only stops when there are consequences, such as incarceration. Repulsive criminal behaviors such as those of the republicans are even more entrenched, requiring incarceration. It's the only way to stop them.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:29 AM

6. We have a group of members, small but vocal

Who seem to be obsessed with the bitter divisiveness of the previous primaries and election. Indeed, some of them show up only when they can nurture and grow that bitter divisiveness. To the point that I wonder about their true motives.
I'm over it. We can't go back and make this situation not be what it is. If they want to live in their bitter angry world, then I leave them to it. Comrade Dumbass and his bootlickers in the GOP are showing us who they are, and we need to take advantage of it, not just for Democrats but for our country and our Constitution.
Some things are a lot more important than their hate and bitter revenge seeking behavior. Right now I'm sitting by mr liberty's hospital bed, where he's on day 10 of an outpatient surgery gone wrong. That is important. The DU'ers who are making DU a place to NOT be are not.

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:47 AM

7. I'm sorry to hear your Mr. Liberty is having a hard time.

I hope things take a turn for the better very soon. Right now, that’s what is most important for you and him.

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Response to Bluepinky (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:54 AM

8. Thanks, WaterMan. This has been pretty awful. n/t

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 03:34 PM

21. Hoping things

are improving today. Looking forward to hearing from you when time allows.

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:41 AM

17. I hope that

Mr. Liberty recovers soon. For, exactly as you say, that is important. Please keep me updated as time allows.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 09:25 AM

9. Not a frequent contributor to DU

So I miss a lot of these arguments.

But when I see them I'm like WTF?

We have bigger fish to fry.

Thanks for the reminder and the thoughtful essay!

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:43 AM

18. Thanks, Itty-Bitty-Buddy!

At least most of them are obvious. Still, even those often result in long, meaningless group rants that are the lost chapters of Lord of the Flies.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #18)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:11 PM

27. Bahaha!

You funny.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:12 PM

28. Was it

something I said?

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:23 PM

34. Yes lovey

The funny part.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:21 AM

10. Wise Words That We All Should Heed

Every time I see the angry posts reminding us that we should consider this liberal or that one is our enemy, the poster goes in the "suspect" column.

To those who can't get over the 2016 primary: It doesn't matter if Bernie said this or his supporters did that. Get over it. The rest of us did.

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Response to Leith (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:47 AM

19. Right.

An example we see all too frequently advocate a different set of "rules" for, say, a non-white female candidate, than for anyone else. Some of these are most obvious attempts to divide Democrats, while others are fools carrying our opposition's toxic brew for them.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:27 AM

12. We don't have the luxury...

...because it is bigger than Donald Trump. Putin wants to destroy America's democracy just like the old Soviet Union was destroyed. He wants to divide and conquer. He has found an ideal puppet in Donald Trump.



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Response to kentuck (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:56 AM

20. Thanks, Buddy!

(Correction made!)

You are right -- this is way bigger than Donald Trump. He is just the most visible pus from a serious infection that threatens the body politics. While it is important that we wipe him off from any government position, we need to act as a united front in order to address that serious infection. We must prevent its spread.

People need to take time, as individuals, to identify how far they are willing to go to save our constitutional democracy. What are they willing to give up? Are they willing to sacrifice their old, bitter resentments? Are they honest enough with themselves to admit that these poison resentments can only feed the very disease that threatens our society? That's the real question confronting us at this most important time in our nation's history.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 04:44 PM

22. As someone noted on another thread....

It is Trump Derangement Syndrome.

But it is not the Trump critics that suffer from it. It is not his critics that are willing to ignore anything and everything to protect their Leader. Indeed, those with the "Syndrome" are willing to overlook even treason, so long as it prevented Hillary from winning the Presidency. Their hatred for Hillary knows no bounds. There is nothing they cannot ignore when it comes to Donald Trump.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 05:23 PM

24. Exactly!

Very well said.

There is no question that Putin hated Hillary Clinton, and was intent upon doing whatever it took to damage her campaign. Had she won -- and I believe common sense indicates she did -- Putin would have continued to take steps to destabilize the US, to inflict further damage to her presidency. These include efforts to keep republican majorities in both the House and Senate, to block any and all legislative efforts on her part. But it goes far deeper than that.

The TDS is real, and is found on the individual level, without a doubt. And that is, of course, a study of psychology. Yet it is more dangerous on the group level, which is sociology. Specifically, we think of what is known as "crowd behavior," something that is remarkably easy to manipulate to turn ugly and violent. (It is far more difficult to create and maintain the non-violent crowd behaviors we associate with Gandhi and King, as those require each person to discipline their individual behaviors.)

Putin and his associates -- including many here in the USA -- have blended a high level of paranoia into the group consciousness. I'm not suggesting everything we see, such as "road rage" (which depersonalizes the individual within the automobile) is directly from outside sources. But those who seek control through mass confusion are capitalizing on the fears and hatred of "others." And they encourage those paranoid individuals to gather in armed clusters. And that has created a powder keg, one that a small incident may well serve as the fuse to ignite.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 05:21 PM

23. It's past the time to succumb to the entities that work to divide us for their own aims

Dems gave in to those forces as far back as the Nixon/McGovern campaign. Looking back on all the campaigns since then it looks like Dem candidates should have prevailed. Think about them and I believe you'd agree. Each one of them has had a manipulation scandal.

It makes me angry and it breaks my heart how morbid greed has molded America's Executive Branch and thus the Supreme Court.

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Response to eleny (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 05:31 PM

25. Great points!

It's interesting .....I was thinking about this general topic last night. I was thinking about each presidential election for the past 50 years, back to Nixon vs Humphrey, and counting the sum-total of years each party occupied the White House. I thought about Nixon's underhanded contact in Vietnam to prevent the peace process from going forward in '68 (which LBJ warned Nixon was treason), about Watergate, the October surprise crap in '80, and on and on.

Added to each of these, as you note, were tactical efforts to divide the Democratic Party. You are absolutely right. Each and every time. And the degree of success our opposition has per dividing us always determines the outcome. Always.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 05:37 PM

26. Same here at our house!

We were thinking back on how each and every one of those elections ought to have had a different result. The vast American electorate are far better people than the few morbidly wealthy who acted to control the outcomes. The pattern finally emerges. Hopefully, it's not too late for our country.
..... .....

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Response to eleny (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:19 PM

30. Right!

Your post has me thinking about re-reading parts of the Senate Watergate Report this evening. While elections have included some less-than-noble tactics well before 1968, things really did change from then on. There was a different dynamic in play, something very criminal. And divisive.

I hope that you consider writing an OP on this topic.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:59 PM

36. So much corruption

This is so off topic but then again, it's not. I want to reread Layton McCartney's book about the Teapot Dome Scandal. Being born and raised in NYC I always equate the most corruption with the east coast. But living out here in the west for so many years I've taken a wider look around.

And that brings John McCain to mind. Have you ever read about his current wife's family history? Many years ago I came across a lengthy article about all this. But that was too many hard disk crashes & burns ago. Still, there's a lot of details about this topic on the net. Here's one article that tells the family doings in decent detail. So just in case you or some of the readers here haven't checked out McCain's in-law connections and his rise to the Senate, here it is.
https://newrepublic.com/article/64809/made-man

All the corruption that we know about makes me feel like a real bumpkin sometimes. But I always bounce back and never give up. One fact stands in clear relief – every one of those sons a b's is going to breath a last breath and there's not a dime's worth of difference between us in that regard.

Like Rose told Cosmo in the wonderful movie, Moonstruck...

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Response to eleny (Reply #36)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 08:32 PM

38. Ah, NYC!

Home of Tammany Hall .....I remember some of its early history, but focused more on its post-1850 (Irish) history. I remember my late father -- a first generation Irish-American -- telling me that in some cases, organized crime did a lot of good for various neighborhoods. I used to laugh about that with some of Dad's brothers, who were detectives (and they were decidedly unpopular with the fellows who ran the sport of boxing when my brothers and I fought!).

It's sad, really sad, how political positions so often lead to corruption. In the small community I live near in rural, upstate NY, yet another Justice was recently caught for corruption. She was the third one in 20 years. I coordinated years ago with the NYS Office of Judicial Misconduct to remove one ....she didn't think before throwing notes out in the trash can. Soon as I faxed them to Albany, she resigned in disgrace.

In my opinion, the people who are "best" at corruption often get promoted to the next level. Though I can't prove it, I'm convinced that republicans go to something akin to hedge schools, to learn the art of corruption so they can become mature criminal-politicians.
John McCain's wife's family must have been faculty at some of these schools. And I think any close look at his career suggests he wasn't as clean as his self-righteousness made him seem to too many.

An OP could easily lead to a book.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 09:04 PM

41. I think this McCain article is the orignal one from all those years ago

I only post it because William Rehnquist is one of the cast of characters. If I recall right Sandra Day O'Connor mentions in her autobiography that she went to school with him in Arizona. The wild west!
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/mccain_s_mob_connections_146.html

Nice chatting!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:13 PM

29. K&R

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Response to Scurrilous (Reply #29)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:20 PM

31. Thanks!

What a week!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:21 PM

32. When they breed they create treason.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:22 PM

33. True.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 06:34 PM

35. Excellent post, great writing

thank you, peace

I've said that, to ask this: is it really a good time to argue about differences between the various sub-groups within the Democratic Party? To invest in bitterness from past disagreements? To engage in behaviors that give birth to further divisions? Or might this be a time when we do not have the luxury of in-fighting, a time where we need to set our differences behind us so that we can concentrate upon that which is most urgent?

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 08:36 PM

39. Thank you!

I remember when I was young, and saw old photographs of Civil War soldiers from both sides, many years after the war, shaking hands and telling war stories. It made an impression on me. If they could do that then, it would seem that Democrats from all the sub-groups within our party could do so now.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 08:31 PM

37. As someone who still remembers the radioactive tag-team sabotage of the last election cycle,

Last edited Fri Jul 20, 2018, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I'd like to pledge that this will never happen again on Democratic Underground.

That includes pointing out the provocateurs and refusing to submit to their baiting, if it starts to happen again. It's too crucial at this point. We need more linear unity, and fewer scattered, tangential divisions.

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Response to NBachers (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 20, 2018, 08:47 PM

40. Thanks, NBachers!

I'm planning to attend a Democratic Party meeting tomorrow, as an invited guest, as it isn't in the county where I live. I attend their meetings from time to time. There are a lot of good people at these, and I'm pleased that the debates, arguments, and hard feelings over people's 2016 primaries have faded into the past. Only a very few individuals who attended these meetings back then have stopped coming.

Some of those I'll see are conservative by my standards. Others think they are to the left of me. I like them all. There are a handful that I socialize with, and more that I only tend to see at meetings or when we are campaigning (door-to-door). I'm glad that all of them do not view everything exactly as I do, for any group that thinks and acts exactly alike degenerates -- and the republican party is proof of that.

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