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Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:26 PM

Are you going to be a 'good American' and boo and hiss when you hear "socialist" or "liberal"?

Because you're supposed to... That's what normal people do according to the groups I am going to mention next.

Years of conditioning by Fox News, talk radio, right wing pundits, radical right groups seeping into the mainstream, right wing religious leaders, politicians, media, astroturf efforts, etc. have led to this.

You're supposed to boo and hiss the liberal, the socialist and the perceived 'socialist', the Democrat, GLBTQ people, the poor, the person with pre-existing conditions, the refugee, the Muslim, the black civil rights activist, the activist in general, anyone who is against system justification, etc.

Years spent normalizing and creating outrage, finding the one person who is most outraged about these groups who doesn't look like a deranged killer, making opposition to these 'other' groups seem normal and more normal than these 'other' groups, associating hating these 'other' groups with pleasant-sounding groups like the Family Research Council, making it seem abnormal to associate with these 'other' groups (Who wants to be a snowflake, right?), providing rewards and 'rewards' like with feeling a sense of belonging or a vague notion of 'national security', providing a scapegoat for their troubles, etc. I could go on and on... this isn't political, this is purely physiological in many ways.

Here's the thing: We can argue what socialism is and what the definition of it is until the cows come home. We can move to the center or, heck, even be on the right. You can be the perfect anti-socialist. We can have tough border policies. We can do all sorts of things to appeal to people on the other side of the aisle. But as we approach November, here's what will happen... Fox News, Breitbart News, Republican politicians, the White House, Christian right leaders, and others of the first group I mentioned will say "SOCIALIST", "DIRTY LIBERAL", "OPEN BORDERS", etc. and it will be just like Pavlov ringing the bell, one segment of Americans will go into visceral hatred of the 'other' (AKA you), and another segment will not say anything because they don't want to make a scene or look 'different'.

We've got to call it out, we've got to cause the 'extinction' of this conditioning. That's all there is to it, refusing to be a 'good American' is a first step, because I'm not going to wait for 'heretic against Trump or Trumpism' to be the next bell.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:29 PM

1. Conservative media is massive

 

We have no effective way to fight or stop the massive conservative media.

What we can do is prevent unforced errors like calling ourselves socialists, a philosophy that is opposed to core American values.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:35 PM

2. Socialist is antithetical to capitalism- it's not social democracy and it's bullshit

 

- a rookie mistake- to equate the two.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:52 PM

6. What? That isn't at all true. Markets and socialist programs can exist together as they do in this

 


nation. The question is what do you socialize and what do you leave in the hands of markets? At some point we decided not to marketize our fire departments and our policing(for the most part), nor our military(for the most part), and our schools(for the most part).

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Response to JCanete (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:15 PM

8. Socialism doesn't just mean having social programs. It means much more than regulating businesses -

 

Which is fine in a democracy. Socialism is an actual thing and itís bit what a lot of people think it is. State owned businesses scare the hell out of lots of people.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:25 PM

10. Yes, it does

 

Read this essay:

What Can We Learn From Denmark?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/what-can-we-learn-from-de_b_3339736.html

Nothing to do with "state-owned businesses" - we are not living in 1920.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:27 PM

12. A social democracy is not the same as socialism- sorry but it's just not.

 

Denmark doesnít recall its gov socialism, so this is not a good faith argument. Words still have meanings.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:30 PM

13. Meanings evolve over time

 

Especially with respect to political or economic philosophies.

That aside, the Denmark model is what Bernie and other like-minded folks have in mind when they use the term.

The fundamentals being:

Higher taxes, especially on the very wealthy, in exchange for a large social safety net and greater public services.

What would be a better term to describe that philosophy?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:45 PM

14. Falsely describing other nations systems isn't "evolving", it's pedaling fake information...

 

Which is disturbing to see here. This world currently has socialist nations, as well as social democratic ones that are okay w capitalism as long as itís properly regulated.

Not sure why anyone would want to muddy the waters, I donít think it speaks well of them.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:26 PM

11. There is a range of socialism, and again, we have socialistic programs in America. So are we

 


capitalist or socialist? Would socializing medical care make us a socialist nation or would we remain a capitalist nation? That would socialize an industry, as does public schooling, as does public policing and firefighting...so where do YOU draw the line that tips us over into socialism?

If you are just going to use the most extreme definition, which nobody of political prominence in America is advocating for, it comes off to me as rhetoric.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 01:20 PM

9. Our current path promises the death of the social safety net.

Silently hoping and assuming that the party is going to do something about it is not good enough. The party, IMO is afraid to stick their necks out. They, IMO, are afraid of losing corporate backing and are losing the messaging war against the right. I support Bernie Sanders for standing up and fighting for policies that put people first. He is on the right path.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:44 PM

3. The bells have begun ringing in this thread, already...

For some reason, people keep letting the conservatives frame the discussion. They got our side to argue with them and AGAINST their own created boogieman. It's mental. Here's a prediction: conservatives will find ANOTHER verbal boogieman (or eight!) and our side will slavishly isolate otherwise devoted Democrats to satisfy the right. W.T.F.?

I'm guessing a big tent could actually house all brands of socialist, but that would actually fight the right. Instead, we eat our own. Christ.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:48 PM

4. Right wingers aren't the only ones who are ignorant

And they aren't the only ones exploiting that ignorance. Right wingers will pretty much smear everyone who doesn't agree with them as a commie socialist and they always have. They've smeared just about every Dem ever with that label, including Hillary Clinton. They aren't anything like those who are criticizing socialist wannabes like Justice Democrats, and lumping them all in together is dishonest.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:51 PM

5. Is this hyperbole or a straw man?

I didn't hear the bell.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Mon Jul 23, 2018, 12:56 PM

7. How about just be a good American and

leave the stupid labels at the door. We need to win folks.

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