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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsExperts Conclude That Russian Attack Won The Election For Trump
https://www.politicususa.com/2018/07/25/experts-conclude-that-russian-attack-won-the-election-for-trump.html"SNIP..........
Outside experts have concluded that the Russian attack on the 2016 election did enough damage to swing 80,000 votes in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, which put Trump in the White House.
In his latest column for The Washington Post, Max Boot wrote:
While the intelligence agencies are silent on the impact of Russias attack, outside experts who have examined the Kremlin campaign which included stealing and sharing Democratic Party emails, spreading propaganda online and hacking state voter rolls have concluded that it did affect an extremely close election decided by fewer than 80,000 votes in three states. Clint Watts, a former FBI agent, writes in his recent book, Messing with the Enemy, that Russia absolutely influenced the U.S. presidential election, especially in Michigan and Wisconsin, where Trumps winning margin was less than 1 percent in each state.
The numbers are staggering. Russian pro-Trump/anti-Clinton propaganda reached 126 million people on Facebook alone, which is roughly the same number as the number of votes cast for Clinton and Trump. Russian bots reached 1.4 million Twitter users with their disinformation, and 39 states had their voting systems hacked in what experts believed what a Russian effort to get data that they could use to target voters in their attack.
..........SNIP"
2naSalit
(86,040 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Maraya1969
(22,441 posts)orangecrush
(19,236 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)I'm not sure anything other than impeachment is an option. There's nothing really in the Constitution to remove him. The electors elected him and the congress certified it. Even if it is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the voting during election day was rigged the electors votes are the votes that count.
There is no recall provision, no re-do provision. We're stuck with him until impeachment, resignation, new elections, 25th Amendment or death.
Maraya1969
(22,441 posts)doesn't happen ever again. Remember Gore/Bush? And the result of that steal was the Iraq war with well over a million deal including 200,000+ suicides of veterans since they have come home from the war.
Republicans bring about evil. We have to find a way to keep them contained.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)dalton99a
(81,065 posts)edhopper
(33,182 posts)or why people chose Trump. They didn't, he is not legimate.
We ae losing our Democracy with the willing particiption of the GOP, the Press, and anyone who doesn't oppose this imposter.
iluvtennis
(19,756 posts)peggysue2
(10,811 posts)I think disclosure of that fact is something that terrifies him. Thus, all the nonsense about his massive electoral win and the mantra: no collusion, no collusion, no collusion.
Interesting to note as well: early on Hillary Clinton answered her critics and took responsibility for any and all mistakes made during the campaign. But she said very deliberately:
'That's not why I lost the election.'
She was ridiculed for the comment, of course, accused of sour grapes and typical excuse-making.
She knew.
pandr32
(11,446 posts)Cha
(295,899 posts)anymore of that shite that Hillary wasn't a good candidate.
That goes for you, too, BS.. this was after the so called "election".. he was out there on cnn Nov 16, 2016 calling us "elite".
Jim__
(14,045 posts)Trump is probably making a list as we speak.
PaulX2
(2,032 posts)Been saying it over and over. I guess I'm not an expert. Just an American with a working brain, ears, and eyes.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210902204
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210892487
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210891211
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210885802
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210885474
leftieNanner
(14,997 posts)And I don't think we lost the Senate either!
thegoose
(3,115 posts)Down with the Dump ship!
Control-Z
(15,681 posts)But usually as a response not in an OP.
It just pissed me off so much when someone here came back at me with "there's no way to prove it" or "there's no remedy in the Constitution so it doesn't matter".
Responses like that coming from other DUers felt like another betrayal to me. From day one I knew it was a stolen election. I couldn't understand how Democrats weren't screaming it from the rooftops. DUers didn't do it. No one did.
ProfessorPlum
(11,252 posts)Or I think you would have seen quite a few of us screaming about the election being stolen
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Russian lies, or GOPer lies, we have to learn to deal with those. But, tampering with vote totals is different.
Kablooie
(18,571 posts)It was Russian misinformation that kept conservative patsys turning towards Trump and swarmed over each scandal with lies as soon as each emerged.
llmart
(15,499 posts)I couldn't believe he even won the primaries let alone the election. I always figured that big bag of wind was capable of shenanigans. He's always been a blowhard and narcissist and liar.
MsLeopard
(1,265 posts)didnt hurt either. Our mainstream media has a lot to answer for too.
LisaM
(27,758 posts)Not to mention what passed for "debates", both at the primary and general election level.
I've always thought that the media created Trump. We were a divided household during the election (not as far as our political views or ideology, which are progressive). I couldn't stand to watch Trump and my boyfriend was fascinated by him, so we had different TVs on in different rooms. It was bad enough that the media handed him all that airtime; it was worse that it drove ratings.
wonkwest
(463 posts)Americans love a good car crash. Especially in slow motion.
I think that impulse is what gave us what we now have.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,536 posts)They decided at the beginning that they would write as many negative stories as possible about Gore, and as many positive stories as possible about Bush. It wasn't an accident -- it was a choice. And it worked. They turned a man who was a highly accomplished person with impeccable integrity into a serial liar, and a man whose first 40 years were so badly spent (drink, possibly drugs, maybe an abortion, desertion from his military service) into a neverending paean of praise.
After the election there was a brief period of introspection by the MSM ("holy shit, what did we do?), but in the end they returned to their habit of following the sparkling item, to turn the serious process of choosing our next president into a horse race concerned only with the polls and not the contents of each man's platform. (At least Trump was honest in one thing: he said he would only appoint justices who would overturn Roe v. Wade, and he's on track to do just that. As someone with a degree in journalism, I was appalled at how Trump's rallies were covered in their entirety, without any real analysis or fact-checking. The Access Hollywood tape alone should have been enough to shoot down Trump's campaign, but the media let it go to pursue the next shiny object.
One good sign is that the press now reports only new stuff Trump says -- like his Orwellian statement to the VFW -- and stopped running live coverage of Trump's events in full.
Meadowoak
(5,516 posts)meow2u3
(24,743 posts)If it weren't for the Russkies, Trump wouldn't have even been nominated, let alone "elected."
The fix was in way before. It took some serious planning to pull this off.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)residentcynic
(30 posts)Trump was the clear choice for the bat$hit crazy arm of the GOP. I'd always assumed that was about a third, but it seems that it's closer to a half or more now. Of course, the GOP is not known for morals, so once Trump won the most delegates, the less cray cray bunch jumped on the bandwagon. It worked out for them. They got their tax cut and a conservative SC judge. The only way they'll regret supporting him is if they lose their seats. I've about given up on Mueller. It's all going to depend on getting out the vote.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Of course, they won't (elected Dems won't) but they have every justification and good reason to do so.
BigmanPigman
(51,430 posts)and will him in the attack instead (his usual MO). Best defense is a strong offense.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)in the Democratic primary voting and the 3rd party vote increases in all 3 states compared to previous elections.
The very last polling indicated a recognizable swing in sentiment, particularly after Comey's interference with 11 days to go.
We witnessed a 'perfect storm.'
It should be a wake up call. But as they say, "We get the government we deserve."
mythology
(9,527 posts)She was up nationally and in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan by 6 points prior to the second Comey announcement. Her national lead dropped to 3 points in a week. Her overall swing state (more than the three states above) lead dropped to less than 2 points.
If she didn't have the server there's no initial investigation, no letter to Congress just before the election and thus nothing for Chavetz to leak and Comey to announce.
The Russian stuff, not campaigning in swing state, WikiLeaks, the voter suppression, the gerrymandering (in potentially reducing Democratic turnout in gerrymandered Republican districts), none of that had the documentable and quantifiable impact her decision to have a server made. Maybe they had an impact, but you can't provide any real evidence that can be measured.
I know this isn't a popular opinion here, but it has the benefit of being supported by more than maybe.
applegrove
(118,008 posts)wins.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)They didn't need the silly emails. You think they couldn't have gotten equally good mileage out of the Clinton Foundation for example? Equally squeaky clean and equally trashed by all and I mean ALL.
Takket
(21,421 posts)I just see one quote from a former FBI agents book.
mopinko
(69,804 posts)bucolic_frolic
(42,661 posts)and a handful of counties with anomalies just happened to fall for Trump. This is not happenstance, coincidence, or random. This was a targeted play. Trump campaign focused on small county ethnics in Pennsylvania. They used social media mind control to stay close, and focused on counties and Electoral College to put them over the top. Would love to know how much juice was dropped in those counties.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)Hillary would have prevailed regardless of it all, and the Trump campaign/Russians would have had to try harder methods. The Dems learned nothing in 2000. Halfway through to the next presidential election, and no sign of this ridiculous anachronism being addressed.
VOX
(22,976 posts)The EC boils our national elections down to a handful of states that can tip things either way. It's always the same players: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Missouri, etc.
With a nationwide popular-vote victory, we'd have had Presidents Gore and Hillary Clinton. Which is why Republicans will NEVER give up the EC.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,353 posts)is that, in the absence of outright vote-switching/stuffing, all we're left with is a theoretical likelihood that Russia helped swing the election to Trump. It's difficult to quantify exactly the effect of the Russian propaganda. Of course, the fact that they meddled at all is bad enough and IMHO enough of a reason to call the election into question if not invalidate it entirely but as long as the actual vote count was not tampered with, I don't know what the recourse is, as sour as that seems.
rainin
(3,010 posts)She WON!
It is a tragedy that in sports, a first place medal will be taken away and given to a runner up if it's determined that there was cheating. And yet, we have no remedy for stealing the Presidency of the United States.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They just lift a paragraph from the Washington Post and add a clickbait headline misrepresenting the content.
applegrove
(118,008 posts)people to be on the ball.
triron
(21,914 posts)Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)historic levels of complacency
The media was not covering an election, they were manufacturing a horse ran for the sake of ratings, and voter turnout among Democrats was dismal.
And I can't get into the unforced errors because my post will get deleted if I post any of them
applegrove
(118,008 posts)interfearance on a grand scale.
Snake Plissken
(4,103 posts)He is not a legitimate President, and never will be.
But the fact remains, he should not have won, period.
71,242,647 registered voters could not be bothered to vote.
applegrove
(118,008 posts)SergeStorms
(18,882 posts)We all knew that already. The cult leader and his followers seem to be the only humans alive who can't absorb that fact.
Captain Stern
(2,195 posts)The Russians won the election for trump. I think that's true.
But, what they did was trick people (stupid people, and even some not stupid people) into voting for trump. And, it wasn't done lightly...they put a lot of work into it. They sent out some really believable looking, professional-grade lies out, and they targeted the people that their info showed that it would most likely work on.
The bottom line is, the Russians influenced tens of thousands of US Citizens to vote for trump. They didn't steal, or falsify ballots. They didn't 'hack' the vote totals, and change them. What they did was convince a lot of people in our country that trump would make a better President than Clinton would. And, it paid off for them.
FakeNoose
(32,329 posts)Pepsidog
(6,252 posts)to account for dividing a nation and turning its citizens against each other purely for profit. We all saw Trump panic when he thought he was slipping with Fox. No Fox hosts with the exception of Shep Smith should live in peace. They should be hounded and harassed at every public appearance whether it be a a local restaurant or public event. Murdochs should receive the same treatment. In the fight to preserve the Republuc, these fear monging, lying pieces of garbage must be called out. Murdoch, not even born in the USA, has made billions destroying and tearing the fabric of our society which was once considered intelligent and progressive. Their support of the fanatics on the right has blurred, confused, and obsfucated the minds of millions of Americans who now consider foreign governments efforts to undermine a presidential election acceptable behavior. The Fox News problem is our biggest problem.
OMGWTF
(3,891 posts)if you include the ones that went to third-party candidates.
applegrove
(118,008 posts)rurallib
(62,342 posts)With something like 100,000 not counted in Detroit and hundreds of thousands knocked from the polls in Wisconsin, especially Milwaukee.
If we ever had an honest election in this country it would be a landslide.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sedona
(3,769 posts)former9thward
(31,800 posts)No mention in the article.
Enoki33
(1,584 posts)Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Voter data was one damn hot commodity wasn't it!
Votet data was worth multi-millions, if one could get ahold of it.
Hello, TAD DeVine?
Gothmog
(143,998 posts)msdogi
(430 posts)and not just the presidency, Senate and House seats
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)to keep trump voters busy for the next 4 months?
oasis
(49,150 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)pecosbob
(7,502 posts)por favor?
catbyte
(34,168 posts)Something very dark and dangerous happened that day. I've been angry at elections before--2000 is a prime example--but I never felt physically sick to my stomach the way I did when I woke up the morning of the 9th. And the feeling has never really gone away.
I'm terrified by what they are cooking up for the midterms. We need to vote in such numbers that they can't plausibly steal any of these elections. It's going to be an epic battle. The only thing that comes to mind is Tolkien:
[IMG][/IMG]
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I've said it ever since.
I don't think it was JUST the trolls and the bots. I think it was the hacking, too. Our govt will NEVER admit if the hacking (and it's confirmed there WAS hacking of election systes) - it will never admit that the hacking was successful, even if it can tell. It may not be possible to verify that votes were changed or whatever the hackers did.
Trump is what happens when the people don't get to choose their President. Putin is what happens, too.
applegrove
(118,008 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)What we know: the "election systems" and voter registration information in I think 7 states was hacked. The govt has not told us, or they do not know, what exactly was hacked, what was done, what was tried but failed, and the like.
So we don't have evidence right now before us that the election system hacking was successful. Rosenstein said there's no evidence it was or that the election result was affected. As we would expect him, or any govt representative, to say. They are not going to admit, ever, that the result was affected in any way. The reason is that they don't want to admit they failed in protecting our election system, and don't want the public to lose trust in the election system.
So you don't know if the votes were altered, and I don't know.
But on election night, I suspected that had happened, because the result made no sense and didn't jive with the polling data that had been provided the day before the election.
That the result was altered is easily possible, if not probable. That would explain everything, and it fits with the fact that the election systems were hacked and voter registration info was obtained.
All they needed to do was change some votes in a few key but close districts in a couple of states.
I think the result was changed by hacking. The evidence we know of so far supports that. I see nothing at all to indicate that's not true.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)They didn't even tell us the voting systems were hacked but it doesn't make much sense to do all this hacking just to take a peek.
guss
(239 posts)The Electoral College Dropped the ball.
They are suppose to be the last defense against
a elected official who is clearly not Qualified.
I remember one of the Members talking about being on the fence.
to vote against.
They are supposedly a none biased group.
Did Russia influenced them?
Need another investigation into what happened with them.
JI7
(89,172 posts)it would not have hurt as much.
the 2 are almost connected. the Russian attack made Comey's announcement worse.
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)That's the version I'll always favor. The collusion was going to narrowly fail minus simpleton James Comey. I suspect Nate Silver would offer the same conclusion, based on articles he wrote a couple of months after election day, blaming Comey.
VOX
(22,976 posts)That sounds completely insane, but FACTS, FACTS, FACTS.
mountain grammy
(26,568 posts)and another ex friend.. they believed it because they wanted to. You think you know people, then trump comes along..
EndGOPPropaganda
(1,117 posts)The Senate majority is illegitimate too.
We must impeach all the trump judges. They are illegitimate.
stopwastingmymoney
(2,027 posts)I've thought that all along, why does no one talk about that?
EndGOPPropaganda
(1,117 posts)If you would write a letter to editor of local paper saying that, Il help edit
Crash2Parties
(6,017 posts)Crosscheck in action:
Trump victory margin in Michigan: 13,107
Michigan Crosscheck purge list: 449,922
Trump victory margin in Arizona: 85,257
Arizona Crosscheck purge list: 270,824
Trump victory margin in North Carolina: 177,008
North Carolina Crosscheck purge list: 589,393
(from https://www.gregpalast.com/election-stolen-heres/ )
But, that doesn't excuse Russia. They hacked into voter roles, gave the data to Cambridge Analytica who cleaned & correlated it and finally passed it on to Crosscheck and other voter roll purge lists.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)andym
(5,441 posts)especially the last minute investigation/letter which reverberated with the widely disseminated propaganda was too much for Hillary Clinton to overcome. The earlier partisan Congressional investigations focused on Hillary Clinton did not help either, as it enabled the propaganda to find fertile ground in susceptible citizens..
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)so the repubes could have it for a little bit, before the real shitstorm consequences of their treason ruined America for everyone.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)changed their vote based on something they read on social media? We need to make sure these people, the lowest of the low information voters, vote for Dems in November and aren't tricked again.