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louis c

(8,652 posts)
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 08:26 AM Aug 2018

How is it that all 4 of my Grandparents were considered non-white, but I'm considered white?

All four of my Grandparents hailed from Southern Italy, from Calabria and Sicily. They all arrived in America in the early 1900's. When they arrived, they were not considered as "white". Now, I'm considered as white. Funny how that shit happens.

<snip>From 1861 to 1920 began a substantial immigration, about three millions of Italians migrate to the United States, two thirds from southern Italy. Moreover, now it starts the creation of the stereotype of non-white Italian. At that time theories were considered now considered pseudo-sciences, but at the time thought correct of proto-criminology and anthropology rallies, mainly promoted by Niceforo and Lombroso. These theories postulate that the Italians of the former kingdom of the two Sicilies were a Negro and damned population and the people with specific physical traits of southern Italy were naturally criminals.<snip>

Link:
https://www.quora.com/Are-Italians-considered-white

56 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How is it that all 4 of my Grandparents were considered non-white, but I'm considered white? (Original Post) louis c Aug 2018 OP
Got some of that Middle Eastern blood.... Historic NY Aug 2018 #1
My husband is of Italian & Sicilian ancestry. Dulcinea Aug 2018 #28
Same with the Irish Older Than I Look Aug 2018 #2
Not sure what you are talking about. They definitely would have been considered SweetieD Aug 2018 #3
Read the link. louis c Aug 2018 #5
Italians were NOT considered white Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #18
July 30, 1866, 44 African Americans were killed in New Orleans in a race riot LakeSuperiorView Aug 2018 #37
Yes it was Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #41
You are saying that manner someone was murdered is the important part? LakeSuperiorView Aug 2018 #42
I am saying that is you looked up the largest mass lynching in American Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #45
That's exactly what I did and the top article LakeSuperiorView Aug 2018 #46
Google the largest mass Lynching in American history Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #49
Told you, I did Google. LakeSuperiorView Aug 2018 #51
I agree blueniteflower Aug 2018 #53
Gee, I just watched Vendetta the story of the LARGEST mass Drahthaardogs Aug 2018 #55
No one is arguing with your straw man. n/t pnwmom Aug 2018 #20
No that's quite wrong Loki Liesmith Aug 2018 #26
This "racial adaptability" chart from 1925 separates "White Americans" from "Italians" ck4829 Aug 2018 #32
One is perceived by how they appear when walking out their front door. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #4
My point is that during this time of thinking that we will become a Majority-Minority nation louis c Aug 2018 #6
The only appropriate response would have been. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #7
I don't think you understand louis c Aug 2018 #9
You are wrong. We are not all illegal immigrants. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #10
Then you must be a Native American. What tribe do you belong to? louis c Aug 2018 #11
I belong to the American Citizenship Tribe. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #12
I guess you just don't get it. louis c Aug 2018 #14
There is a difference between not getting it. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #15
It's kinda tough to "get" a dogmatic premise supported with little more than absolutism. LanternWaste Aug 2018 #47
I don't think you understand what "illegally" means Lee-Lee Aug 2018 #36
And disease d_r Aug 2018 #54
Most of our ancestors were either invaders from Europe or came here before pnwmom Aug 2018 #21
Before 1940. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #22
I see nowhere in the OP, which I just reread, where the OP claims that pnwmom Aug 2018 #23
They have called me illegal multiple times. NCTraveler Aug 2018 #24
That's how assimilation works. In a couple of generations all of sinkingfeeling Aug 2018 #8
Me too!!! phylny Aug 2018 #13
Shows you how fucked up racism is. ismnotwasm Aug 2018 #16
I totally understand what you're saying. Shanti Mama Aug 2018 #17
The Irish ran into the same thing. And I remember visiting England in the late 70's, pnwmom Aug 2018 #19
The origins of Paddy Wagon are unclear but some say it was the PD (Police Dept) LakeSuperiorView Aug 2018 #40
history of the term SoCalDem Aug 2018 #44
The racial categorization of black/white/asian is a social construct and can change any time ck4829 Aug 2018 #25
My point is that my contemporaries can't grasp the logic louis c Aug 2018 #33
That I think is a serious issue ck4829 Aug 2018 #35
Exactly. n/t pnwmom Aug 2018 #43
In a few decades Asians and some Latinos Loki Liesmith Aug 2018 #27
Indeed, and we're already seeing it ck4829 Aug 2018 #29
Wouldn't it be great Soxfan58 Aug 2018 #30
If you did that, then greymattermom Aug 2018 #31
It will take some time... N_E_1 for Tennis Aug 2018 #34
I have my father's 8th grade picture from 1928 CanonRay Aug 2018 #38
My Mom's family is from Salerno and Sicily HockeyMom Aug 2018 #39
Anti-Chinese sentiments, anti-Irish sentiments, anti-Italian sentiments have all come and gone. LanternWaste Aug 2018 #48
I'm Sicilian-Irish maveric Aug 2018 #50
This is true. If you were Irish or Italian, at one time underthematrix Aug 2018 #52
Because race and culture are malleable constructs. nt Hekate Aug 2018 #56

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
1. Got some of that Middle Eastern blood....
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 08:34 AM
Aug 2018

Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman, Yemen, United Arab Emirates (UAE), Lebanon, Israel

My DNA profile showed 11% from the above regions. I guess being down at the boot its was easier to spread out along the trade routes. I have some early photos and many in my family have dark features. My brother would be so 'dark' during the summer.

Dulcinea

(6,510 posts)
28. My husband is of Italian & Sicilian ancestry.
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 07:11 AM
Aug 2018

I'm mostly Polish with Austrian, Bavarian, & Slovenian background too. Strange to think that per Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, the Jeff Sessions of his day, we wouldn't be considered white people.

SweetieD

(1,660 posts)
3. Not sure what you are talking about. They definitely would have been considered
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:19 AM
Aug 2018

White. I'm sure they faced anti immigrant sentiment and were otherized but on any census or official form they would have always been listed as white or Italian not colored or negro. Same with Irish. No group in this country went through what black people went through specifically. If you guys were truly considered black the experience would have been much different.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
5. Read the link.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:23 AM
Aug 2018

did you ever hear an Italian called a Guinea? That insult was coined in the early 1900's. Why do you think that was? There is a country called Guinea and the inhabitants don't look like Norwegians.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
18. Italians were NOT considered white
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 05:33 PM
Aug 2018

And the largest mass lynching in America was perpetuated against Scicilian immigrants. Theodore Roosevelt called it "a good thing"

 

LakeSuperiorView

(1,533 posts)
37. July 30, 1866, 44 African Americans were killed in New Orleans in a race riot
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 09:07 AM
Aug 2018

which makes the October 15, 1890 killing of 11 Italians in New Orleans, what... less tragic? Both are horrific. December 26, 1862, 38 Native Americans were executed in Mankato, Minnesota after the Dakota War of 1862 which was the largest mass hanging in the United States.

The "largest mass lynching in America" was not perpetuated against Sicilian immigrants.

 

LakeSuperiorView

(1,533 posts)
42. You are saying that manner someone was murdered is the important part?
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 01:34 PM
Aug 2018

That the method used by a gang to murder groups of people is the defining bit of information? I gave you an example of 38 people being hung, which far exceeds 11, but that isn't important, because that was an execution?

That is like using the "in it's class" qualifiers in car and truck ads to make their brand the leading vehicle "in it's class".

I'll give you that it was the largest lynching in the city of New Orleans, between 1890 and 1892, not having any additional methods or murder, or having an abnormal ALK+ gene.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
45. I am saying that is you looked up the largest mass lynching in American
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 03:27 PM
Aug 2018

History, Italian Americans would be the victima.

I don't make the stats hoss. Sorry you don't like it.

 

LakeSuperiorView

(1,533 posts)
46. That's exactly what I did and the top article
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 04:04 PM
Aug 2018

said that it wasn't even the largest in New Orleans. One can find anything they want if they only follow their preferred version of truth. 17 to 20 Asians were lynched in Los Angeles in 1871, 237 Black sharecroppers were killed in 1919.

If one searches "mass lynching Italians New Orleans" guess what comes up. Sorry that one can't see facts when one lets only their bias guide the search.

Since no one is ever going to dissuade you from your chosen version of truth, go ahead and claim it again with nothing to support your views and have a nice week. I'm not going to send any more time looking up tragedies with higher body counts. They are all horrible, continue to believe what you want.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
49. Google the largest mass Lynching in American history
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 04:50 PM
Aug 2018

Sorry. I have no idea what you are googling, nor do I understand why it is important to you that it WASN'T italians ( even though it was).

And on edit:

I believe there are some goats tapping on your bridge...

And on edit again,. What does the History Channel Say?

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.history.com/news/the-grisly-story-of-americas-largest-lynching

 

LakeSuperiorView

(1,533 posts)
51. Told you, I did Google.
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 05:09 PM
Aug 2018

And found that your claim does not hold water. Not sure why you are so invested in claiming the "largest" when it clearly is not true.

You said you don't make up the stats, but it is clear that your claim is made up. Sensationalized movie titles are merely based on fact, not actually fact. The truth is important to me. I'm a small percentage Irish by DNA test, likely due to voyages to/from Scandinavia before the 1700's.

And I resent your implication that I am a troll.

Whatever, cling to your beliefs despite proof to the contrary, that what faith based knowledge is built on.

blueniteflower

(38 posts)
53. I agree
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 05:19 PM
Aug 2018

Thanks to this exchange, I looked it up too. Seems like a misconception. Not even close to being the largest. "The lynching of the 11 Italians in New Orleans is often billed as America’s worst mass lynching. In truth, it was not even New Orleans’ worst mass lynching — 34 black people had been killed in a white supremacist uprising in the city in 1866. (Although Italian immigrants in Louisiana continued to be subject to lynch law after 1891, it was in far smaller numbers than black Americans.)"

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adamserwer/how-an-1891-mass-lynching-tried-to-make-america-great-again?utm_term=.lpEMXOKgM#.rl7Bb0xrB

And these weren't even close to being the largest in US history.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
55. Gee, I just watched Vendetta the story of the LARGEST mass
Sun Aug 19, 2018, 09:24 PM
Aug 2018

Lynching in America.

It dawned on me, you don't know or understand what constitutes a lynching. You equate riots with lynching. Perhaps you should watch the movie. It's on Netflix.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
4. One is perceived by how they appear when walking out their front door.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:21 AM
Aug 2018

When sitting down for an interview.

When being pulled over by the cops.

Etc...

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
6. My point is that during this time of thinking that we will become a Majority-Minority nation
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:31 AM
Aug 2018

we don't even know what a minority is. Latinos and Hispanics may be considered non-white now, but considered Caucasian 20 years from now, just like Italians. The point I'm making is how silly it is to even consider race as how American a person is.

let me give you an example. I worked as a union rep on passing a casino bill in Massachusetts. All the interested parties formed a coalition for passage of a bill. Among the participants were indigenous tribes in the state. About 20 people were gathered around a table and during our lunch break the conversation veered off into immigration. Different points of view were exchanged and voices became raised. The Native American political director for one of the tribes, who, until this point, remained silent, slammed his hand on the wooded table, making a very loud sound. Getting everyone's attention, he stated in a loud and convincing voice, "let's get something straight. As far as I'm concerned all you assholes are illegal immigrants".

That's my point.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
7. The only appropriate response would have been.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:36 AM
Aug 2018

I’m not an illegal immigrant, you idiot.

Stupidity met with stupidity does not a good argument make.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
9. I don't think you understand
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 10:00 AM
Aug 2018

We were all citizens sitting at the table. The Native American didn't even look up, was not addressed and did not participate in the political discussion, he just ate his lunch.

15 minutes into the discussion, that's when he ended it by slamming his hand and saying, in a loud voice 'You're all illegal immigrants". It was the only participation he had and the discussion ended there.

The point (which I can't believe I have to make to you), other than Native Americans, we're all illegal immigrants. It's their country. We have no right to point fingers at each other, because we are all their guests.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
10. You are wrong. We are not all illegal immigrants.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 10:17 AM
Aug 2018

I am a guest of no one.

I also don't believe people themselves are illegal, as you are promoting.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
11. Then you must be a Native American. What tribe do you belong to?
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 10:23 AM
Aug 2018

otherwise, you are, like most of the rest of us, here illegally. This country belonged to them.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
12. I belong to the American Citizenship Tribe.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 10:53 AM
Aug 2018

If you are here illegally I think you should leave or get proper documentation for yourself. Of course you could hold tight. People such as myself are working toward blanket amnesty.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
47. It's kinda tough to "get" a dogmatic premise supported with little more than absolutism.
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 04:13 PM
Aug 2018

I'm not here illegally anymore than "I" was instrumental during the Battle of Yorktown.

I guess you just don't get it and never will...

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
36. I don't think you understand what "illegally" means
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 08:27 AM
Aug 2018

There were no immigration laws for the period where you seek to think people came here illegally.

There wasn’t even a nation.

There were just many tribes, with very fluid boundaries and tribal identities. Tribes migrated around, fought wars, seized territory. They even committed genocide sometimes wiping out entire other tribes.

I say this as a person with Native blood. But as a realistic viewer of history also.

There was no nation for anyone to illegally come to.

Under that argument what people held the territory of the nation of the person who made that statement before his people held that land? What makes his nation not illegal immigrants over that precious tribe or nation when they came to that land?

If you really want to get down to it every Native American tribe or nation seized the land it held or lived on from other tribes or people. When the Europeans first arrived in North America every tribe in the land was on land it had seized from or stolen from or won in battle from other tribes over history.

The idea that somehow at that point is where we freeze legitimatacy and all before that was legal and good and all after that is illegal is asinine for many reasons.

In many respects the Europeans who arrived in North America didn’t do anything vastly different than what the existing native tribes had done when it came to sieizing land, fighting for resources or any of the rest. The only thing really different was that the Europeans had a huge technological advantage and were a lot better at it.

Had you given one tribe in the US technology like firearms, written language, etc and none of the other tribes had it you would have seen the same kind of expansionism, siezing of land, etc.

Because human nature is human nature, no mater what the skin color.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
21. Most of our ancestors were either invaders from Europe or came here before
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 05:43 PM
Aug 2018

there was an official immigration system, or simply walked across the Canadian or Mexican border.

Maybe your ancestors all came here after 1940.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
22. Before 1940.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 06:01 PM
Aug 2018

That’s does not negate my position that I am not an illegal being.

I find the argument to be foolish.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
23. I see nowhere in the OP, which I just reread, where the OP claims that
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 06:04 PM
Aug 2018

anyone is an illegal being.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
24. They have called me illegal multiple times.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 06:08 PM
Aug 2018

It is not a state of being.

It’s demonization.

We don’t even call refer to escaped convicts as illegals.

sinkingfeeling

(51,281 posts)
8. That's how assimilation works. In a couple of generations all of
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 09:37 AM
Aug 2018

these 'awful illegals' would be just Americans if we stopped making it an issue.

phylny

(8,353 posts)
13. Me too!!!
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 11:03 AM
Aug 2018

On my great-grandfather's papers, he was described as "swarthy." My great-grandparents came to this country from southern Italy. I have Italian, Greek, and Middle Eastern roots, but I'm a white woman with blue eyes.

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
16. Shows you how fucked up racism is.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 11:07 AM
Aug 2018

And how the entire concept of “passing” has inspired books and college classes. It also emphasizes that “Whiteness” is a invisible standard for power .

Shanti Mama

(1,288 posts)
17. I totally understand what you're saying.
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 02:09 PM
Aug 2018

I grew up in what is now a very wealthy CT suburb. The trash collectors couldn't afford to live there, even then. They were all Italian and looked down on. Not at the same level as African-Americans, but not up to Anglo-Saxon blood. At some level I was always aware at school of a pecking order among "white" kids. I'm glad it has dissipated, but I believe it still exists among folks like Laura Ingraham.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
19. The Irish ran into the same thing. And I remember visiting England in the late 70's,
Fri Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 PM
Aug 2018

telling a cab driver we were going to Ireland next.

He asked why we'd want to go there -- hadn't we heard about the Black Irish?

The Celts were said to be small and dark, and Ireland was invaded by the Moors from the South, and the Vikings from the North, so there is a variation in Ireland similar to that in Italy.

And here in America, at one time police vans were called "paddy wagons." Paddy was the nickname for the Irish, and the criminals were supposed to be Irish.

 

LakeSuperiorView

(1,533 posts)
40. The origins of Paddy Wagon are unclear but some say it was the PD (Police Dept)
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 09:25 AM
Aug 2018

on the side that started the Paddy (PD) Wagon name. They were as much associated with the Irish American police officers driving them as the people being hauled in them. That is not to say that "Paddy" is not a derogatory name used towards those of Irish descent, just that the origin of the term Paddy Wagon was more likely a slurring of the PD painted on the side. PD Wagon becomes Paddy Wagon which becomes other meanings on both sides of the law.

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
44. history of the term
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 02:01 PM
Aug 2018
https://splinternews.com/a-complete-history-of-the-phrase-paddy-wagon-the-survi-1793855618

For a word that is so firmly a part of American slang, the term "paddy wagon"—sometimes spelled as one word, "paddywagon"—has a surprisingly checkered history.

You know what it means. It's a police wagon, and you don't want to end up in the back of one. Over 100 contemporary songs have used the word, according to Genius.com, by artists ranging from TLC to the Red Hot Chili Peppers to Will Smith, Kendrick Lamar and Meek Mill. Hell, Martin Luther King Jr. even used it in his monumental "I've Been to the Mountaintop" speech, the last he ever gave before being assassinated.

The trouble is that, depending who you ask, the term is an anti-Irish slur, born from a time where the Irish were discriminated against in the U.S.

snip


ck4829

(34,981 posts)
25. The racial categorization of black/white/asian is a social construct and can change any time
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 06:54 AM
Aug 2018

Racial categorization is not a real thing by any measure, certainly not a biological reality. It's social and it's political. Used to justify slavery for example. It's used to divide and conquer.

Pitting the poor white man against the poor black man has been one of the greatest tools of those who prefer oligarchy.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
33. My point is that my contemporaries can't grasp the logic
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 08:02 AM
Aug 2018

that we came here as immigrants. We, as Italians, were treated like vermin. The very first immigration laws (other than the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1888) were passed to prevent and control Italian immigration.

Too many of my cousins and close friends who are also Italian, support Trump and think that "we" are better than "them". The connection I'm making here is to show my contemporaries that Italians are "them".

ck4829

(34,981 posts)
35. That I think is a serious issue
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 08:08 AM
Aug 2018

That a lot of people will do more to be part of the "Us" in the "Us vs them" rather than fight against the "Us vs them" system as a whole or realizing that the people who are trying to make it "us vs them" when it comes to race or immigration are trying to screw you over too, but they hope you ignore it to fight the "them".

Hopefully, it's stuff like this that wakes people up.

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)
27. In a few decades Asians and some Latinos
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 07:08 AM
Aug 2018

will likely be considered white.


This is why Democrats should not rely on the inevitability of demographic change for victory. Because the definition of whiteness expands to insure its own survival.

greymattermom

(5,751 posts)
31. If you did that, then
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 07:52 AM
Aug 2018

John Boehner and Barack Obama would be the same race. Look for pictures of them standing side by side in the same light. Boehner does have that orange thing though. Maybe the races should be orange and other.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,593 posts)
34. It will take some time...
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 08:07 AM
Aug 2018

But it’s eventually going to be that way. Earth is a closed system, all will be absorbed and diluted into a homogenized populace. Natural variations will always exist but will become less and less apparent as time goes on.

But, and a huge but, I don’t think the earth will be habitable by that time.

CanonRay

(14,038 posts)
38. I have my father's 8th grade picture from 1928
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 09:22 AM
Aug 2018

He's Sicilian, stands out in his mostly Irish/Polish class like the proverbial sore thumb. Now I'm "white". I'm almost as dark as he was. I put "Other" when answering the question now.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
39. My Mom's family is from Salerno and Sicily
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 09:22 AM
Aug 2018

My Dad's family is British and Irish. Mom's family could be described as "swarthy". My Dad's might be called "Black Irish"; very dark hair and blue eyes.

My daughters had their DNA tested. From my side my younger daughter got 31% Italian, 13% Irish, and 4% Iberian, and 1% Middle Eastern and Asian. She is a blue eyed, redhead. My older daughter got a smaller percentage Italian, greater percentage Irish and Iberian, and also 5% North African. She has very dark hair and brown eyes. "You two are SISTERS?"

The Middle Eastern and North African is not surprising at all with a Sicilian heritage. Trade routes. My husband's family is German, Scandinavian, and Lithuanian.

My daughters call themselves "mutts". A little bit of everything.



 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
48. Anti-Chinese sentiments, anti-Irish sentiments, anti-Italian sentiments have all come and gone.
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 04:17 PM
Aug 2018

Collectively (nationally), anti-Chinese sentiments, anti-Irish sentiments, anti-Italian sentiments have all come and gone.

There's really only two bigotries predicated on racial constructs which permeate US history: antisemitism and the animosity towards the AfAm community. 250 years on, and they still get the short end of every stick thrown.

underthematrix

(5,811 posts)
52. This is true. If you were Irish or Italian, at one time
Wed Aug 15, 2018, 05:13 PM
Aug 2018

they were not considered white. I believe there's a case of a man in early 20th century US who sued to be classified as white. What he was really suing for was access.

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