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Grasswire2

(13,564 posts)
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:15 PM Aug 2018

Robert Reich's proposal: ANNULMENT of Trump's presidency.

ANNULMENT OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY


Suppose Robert Mueller comes up with overwhelming evidence that Trump colluded with Russia to become President, and that, were it not for Russia’s actions during the election, Trump would not have been elected. In other words, Trump’s presidency is not authorized under the United States Constitution.

Impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate would remove Trump from office. This would remedy Trump’s “high crimes and misdemeanors.”

But impeachment would not remedy Trump’s unconstitutional presidency because it would leave in place his vice president, White House staff and Cabinet, as well as all the executive orders he issued and all the legislation he signed, and the official record of his presidency.

The only way to respond to an unconstitutional presidency is to annul it. Annulment would repeal all of an unconstitutional president’s appointments and executive actions, and would eliminate the official record of the presidency. Annulment would recognize that all such appointments, actions, and records were made without constitutional authority.

The Constitution does not specifically provide for annulment of an unconstitutional presidency. But read as a whole, the Constitution leads to the logical conclusion that annulment is the appropriate remedy for one.

After all, the Supreme Court can declare legislation that doesn’t comport with the Constitution null and void. It would logically follow that the Court could declare all the legislation and executive actions of a presidency unauthorized by the Constitution to be null and void.

The Constitution also gives Congress and the states the power to amend the Constitution, thereby annulling or altering whatever provisions came before. Here, too, it would logically follow that Congress and the states could, through amendment, annul the actions of a presidency they determine to be unconstitutional.

I am not suggesting that constitutional annulment of the Trump presidency is likely. I am only arguing that, in the face of overwhelming evidence that his presidency was never authorized under the Constitution, there are ample grounds for arguing it should and can be annulled.


From his FB notes.
146 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Robert Reich's proposal: ANNULMENT of Trump's presidency. (Original Post) Grasswire2 Aug 2018 OP
"The Constitution does not specifically provide for annulment...." mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #1
We have to admit the Constitution is not perfect and fix it. brush Aug 2018 #24
There's a procedure for that. A few, actually, including one I'd rather not contemplate. NT mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #26
I know it has to go thru state legislatures but we need to start raising the issue... brush Aug 2018 #33
You know,the Kochs are only a few states away from a constitutional WhiteTara Aug 2018 #112
Agree, it was written 231 years ago so the forefathers would not have been able to onetexan Aug 2018 #93
I know: we get to fix an amendment, they get to fix an amendmet. We don't need to "fix" the ... marble falls Aug 2018 #121
Fix, amend, adjust...whatever word choice we use we know the document... brush Aug 2018 #122
The Constitution did not say SCOTUS could pick wasupaloopa Aug 2018 #32
The Constitution does not say anything about same-sex marriage. mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #34
...and they didn't brooklynite Aug 2018 #55
Not a problem. There are centuries of case law, SCOTUS decisions etc stopbush Aug 2018 #59
LOL. NO manor321 Aug 2018 #2
Post removed Post removed Aug 2018 #62
If you are referring to Reich, then yes and not the first time. grantcart Aug 2018 #80
Well... druidity33 Aug 2018 #107
For the rather obvious reason that using costitutional methods grantcart Aug 2018 #117
I think I was pretty clear... druidity33 Aug 2018 #120
Post removed Post removed Aug 2018 #109
+ struggle4progress Aug 2018 #91
I agree with this idea, but Quemado Aug 2018 #3
Yes, we wouldn't want to have a mess going on in our country. Crunchy Frog Aug 2018 #21
ha, ha, good one. triron Aug 2018 #37
Annulment is a very real possibility and it also hints at what would happen after Trump is indicted. underthematrix Aug 2018 #4
Annulment is not a very real possibility. It's total fiction. onenote Aug 2018 #123
We thought a Trump presidency... SergeStorms Aug 2018 #133
Not Really Cheviteau Aug 2018 #140
It's fiction because there is no "annulment" process in the constitution onenote Aug 2018 #143
I'm behind this 100%. ffr Aug 2018 #5
DITTO! BigmanPigman Aug 2018 #43
Are there limitations on what can be amended by constitutional amendment? Democrats_win Aug 2018 #6
through the amendment process almost anything is possible, including annulment unblock Aug 2018 #12
This... 2naSalit Aug 2018 #7
That statement isnt remotely true DetroitLegalBeagle Aug 2018 #25
Emotional response zipplewrath Aug 2018 #54
Yes, annulment is a fantasy. LuvNewcastle Aug 2018 #111
Thanks for the Republican Talking Point ignoring cheating, thievery, statistical voting abnormality bucolic_frolic Aug 2018 #66
Point out where any of that happened in the Electoral College DetroitLegalBeagle Aug 2018 #87
from whence do these magic Electors spring? Hermit-The-Prog Aug 2018 #134
thousands of shares and comments on his FB OP already Grasswire2 Aug 2018 #8
And if Grandma had balls, she'd be Grandpa. Dave Starsky Aug 2018 #9
It would provide an elegant and gracious solution to this madness cutroot Aug 2018 #10
Ignoring the obvious unconstitutional nature of this mythology Aug 2018 #11
Wishful thinking Tiggeroshii Aug 2018 #13
One way or another it needs annulment. Gorsuch retracted & Kavanaugh denied would be a start. Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #14
Maybe indicting Trump would fast track to SCOTUS and this be the argument bigbrother05 Aug 2018 #15
Gorsuch should have to recuse himself at that point...nt 2naSalit Aug 2018 #27
Holding your breath for that to happen are you? WillowTree Aug 2018 #31
NO need for snark just because you don't agree...nt 2naSalit Aug 2018 #35
It's not a matter of not agreeing, and it's not a matter of snark. WillowTree Aug 2018 #47
Whatever. Have a nice day...nt 2naSalit Aug 2018 #125
if you had the votes, you could annul each action more directly. unblock Aug 2018 #16
It works for me. Vinca Aug 2018 #17
For me as well. calimary Aug 2018 #135
The country was defrauded. Courts have authority to enact remedies. I'd like to see Constitutional Cognitive_Resonance Aug 2018 #18
How was the Country defrauded? brooklynite Aug 2018 #48
I'm extrapolating a bit, but if you recall the Russian hackers indicted in February were charged Cognitive_Resonance Aug 2018 #85
Good idea. Crunchy Frog Aug 2018 #19
These suggestions of extra-constitutional ways to be rid of Trump get more hilarious all the time. WillowTree Aug 2018 #20
Never happen unless Democrats had a super-majority in both houses and a majority Nitram Aug 2018 #22
I'd bet money that it wouldn't even get past a Left-majority Supreme Court. WillowTree Aug 2018 #29
No, you're right. It's a silly idea. Nitram Aug 2018 #145
If it's not in the Constitution, it ain't happening. MineralMan Aug 2018 #23
After seeing one thread after another along these lines, I suspect that far too many DUers mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #36
The people suggesting such stuff are not serious people who MineralMan Aug 2018 #45
Agreed Pacifist Patriot Aug 2018 #139
Even Donald Trump Nasruddin Aug 2018 #51
Kick dalton99a Aug 2018 #28
For the millionth time, it's not happening. bearsfootball516 Aug 2018 #30
Forget it, Jake; it's Chinatown. mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #41
This is one of the more compelling arguments I've read on this subject. NurseJackie Aug 2018 #38
I think a more likely scenario is that Donald starts a war... Grasswire2 Aug 2018 #42
It may not happen, Mad-in-Mo Aug 2018 #39
We have to be realistic. cab67 Aug 2018 #40
Realistically, Nasruddin Aug 2018 #50
I don't disagree. cab67 Aug 2018 #115
I expect more sense from a former Cabinet official... brooklynite Aug 2018 #44
Yale Law, too. I looked it up. He really ought to know better. NT mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #49
I agree duforsure Aug 2018 #46
Reich is Right Karadeniz Aug 2018 #52
The only way that Kavanaugh is not going to end up on the Supreme Court is mahatmakanejeeves Aug 2018 #53
Somebody suggested removing him by civil lawsuit FakeNoose Aug 2018 #56
Please cite the Constitutional passage that provides for this. WillowTree Aug 2018 #60
If the ACLU was dumb enough to,propose this, I'd cut off my financial support brooklynite Aug 2018 #82
Nothing would be more just than for... wundermaus Aug 2018 #57
Please cite the Constitutional passage that provides for this. WillowTree Aug 2018 #61
Since we have not crossed this bridge before... wundermaus Aug 2018 #84
And you think a Constitutional amendment could be drafted and passed before the 2020 election? WillowTree Aug 2018 #86
Dems have great ideas...and then Dems cripple each other with nit picking, Crutchez_CuiBono Aug 2018 #58
So you're saying you think the Constitution is a nit-pick? WillowTree Aug 2018 #65
I think i addressed that. Crutchez_CuiBono Aug 2018 #67
Where? WillowTree Aug 2018 #73
I made my "comment", This isnt a research site...its a discussion, take the good leave the bad Crutchez_CuiBono Aug 2018 #77
I always find it fascinating to watch. this thread itself is like a ping pong game - back and forth NRaleighLiberal Aug 2018 #69
Good Points. Don't know about annulment as GOP would still be in power (Congress). MarcA Aug 2018 #105
Although this is a huge stretch and will not happen but its does seem appropriate.. honest.abe Aug 2018 #63
This IS the CRUX of the matter!!! All Trump actions are illegitimate bucolic_frolic Aug 2018 #64
Because he was legally voted for by the electors. bearsfootball516 Aug 2018 #68
THere is no present mechanism to do something about that bucolic_frolic Aug 2018 #74
"We are not limited to what the Constitution permits, or to what it prohibits." Just.....shocking. WillowTree Aug 2018 #78
We aren't limited to what the Constitution permits? bearsfootball516 Aug 2018 #79
When you are not constrained by reality the solutions are unlimited inwiththenew Aug 2018 #70
"masturbatory fantasy"..........Gawd, that's sooooo appropriate! WillowTree Aug 2018 #75
Yes. Dopers_Greed Aug 2018 #71
I'm guessing something like this would require Liberalagogo Aug 2018 #72
Give that man an award. mysteryowl Aug 2018 #76
I agree The Liberal Lion Aug 2018 #81
don't forget the judges rolypolychloe Aug 2018 #83
How about we just arbitrarily change the Constitution? brooklynite Aug 2018 #88
This message was self-deleted by its author LanternWaste Aug 2018 #90
I'll listen to everyone pretending they know what they're talking about. LanternWaste Aug 2018 #89
If we can't impeach him...a well understood process fescuerescue Aug 2018 #92
"Overthrow and Revolution" sounds like what we've been experiencing for the last two years. FiveGoodMen Aug 2018 #94
In all seriousness no. fescuerescue Aug 2018 #132
Unless we're just in the early stages FiveGoodMen Aug 2018 #141
Almost as likely as ... PBC_Democrat Aug 2018 #95
Finally...a possible solution to a stolen election! But the S.Ct. won't allow it (Kavanaugh). nt Honeycombe8 Aug 2018 #96
NO PENCE! Not giving this guy a head start on 2020 elections. nt oasis Aug 2018 #97
Who would have the authority to declare it annulled? tclambert Aug 2018 #98
Wow. That's a whole lotta bullshit. Dr Hobbitstein Aug 2018 #99
Unfortunately, given the political sitation jimlup Aug 2018 #100
#AnnulmentNow for the sake of American democracy Achilleaze Aug 2018 #101
I recall annulment of a marriage House of Roberts Aug 2018 #102
Oh please vote humans!!!!! LakeArenal Aug 2018 #103
Pure fantasy, the constitution has what can be done, no such thing is possible and beachbum bob Aug 2018 #104
Best benefit would be no Pence in Oval Panich52 Aug 2018 #106
If only! If only we could reverse this stolen election and it's results. usaf-vet Aug 2018 #108
Let's just make things up as we go along proglib217 Aug 2018 #110
And I also want sarisataka Aug 2018 #113
yes!! TalenaGor Aug 2018 #114
Someone will bring suit on this next year bucolic_frolic Aug 2018 #116
Define a legal basis for a civil suit... brooklynite Aug 2018 #130
Who would have standing to sue? onenote Aug 2018 #144
Amen, erase this mess. Nt N_E_1 for Tennis Aug 2018 #118
I'm for trying it. It would be the quickest way to rid America of Trumps' illegal reign. nt ladjf Aug 2018 #119
And after this ridiculous "annulment" occurs (how?) who is president? onenote Aug 2018 #124
Good Idea Raphe M Aug 2018 #126
If/when Dems get control of Congress, demand such boldness. No more... Beartracks Aug 2018 #127
Yep StarzGuy Aug 2018 #128
YES!! karin_sj Aug 2018 #129
YES!!! lunamagica Aug 2018 #131
What does not authorized under the Constitution mean? MadDAsHell Aug 2018 #136
Trump said there's 2nd Amendment remedies. rickford66 Aug 2018 #137
Annul the presidency. Impeach the #TrumpJudges EndGOPPropaganda Aug 2018 #138
I like the idea and I like Reich coeur_de_lion Aug 2018 #142
K&R Scurrilous Aug 2018 #146

brush

(53,467 posts)
24. We have to admit the Constitution is not perfect and fix it.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:43 PM
Aug 2018

This and the Electoral College should be at the top of the list for adjustment.

brush

(53,467 posts)
33. I know it has to go thru state legislatures but we need to start raising the issue...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:55 PM
Aug 2018

to get the public conditioned to it.

This trump debacle is a perfect opportunity to get it before the public consciousness.

WhiteTara

(29,676 posts)
112. You know,the Kochs are only a few states away from a constitutional
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:07 PM
Aug 2018

convention. Maybe it could be hijacked as they want to do it soon.

onetexan

(12,994 posts)
93. Agree, it was written 231 years ago so the forefathers would not have been able to
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:36 PM
Aug 2018

foresee/envision the technological advances, economic, social and cultural developments that have taken place since then. I believe the American Constitution should be an amendable document, as it is currently. If there is no precedent for a case, Congress should establish precedence.
In this case this illegitimate president presents a clear and present danger to the country and to the free world. This alone should warrant amending our rule of law and the Constitution so that such a situation (wherein we have a traitor holding the highest office of the nation) never occurs again.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
121. I know: we get to fix an amendment, they get to fix an amendmet. We don't need to "fix" the ...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 08:35 PM
Aug 2018

Constitution, we need to write laws that meet Constitutional muster.

brush

(53,467 posts)
122. Fix, amend, adjust...whatever word choice we use we know the document...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 08:41 PM
Aug 2018

doesn't cover how to get rid of a rogue, traitor president so we need to fix, amend or adjust it.

mahatmakanejeeves

(56,888 posts)
34. The Constitution does not say anything about same-sex marriage.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:56 PM
Aug 2018

The Constitution does not say anything about school integration.

The Constitution does not say anything about the internet.

The Constitution does not say anything about....

So what's your point?

brooklynite

(93,847 posts)
55. ...and they didn't
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:16 PM
Aug 2018

SCOTUS can and did rule on the right of a State to make it’s Constitutionally mandated allocation of Electors.

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
59. Not a problem. There are centuries of case law, SCOTUS decisions etc
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:23 PM
Aug 2018

that are not enumerated in the Constitution but which are considered to be an extension and clarification of the Constitution.

Response to manor321 (Reply #2)

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
80. If you are referring to Reich, then yes and not the first time.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:43 PM
Aug 2018

It is a simple binary proposition.

Are we a nation of laws.

All of the remedies for the current situation have legal remedies.

If you start advocating for extra Constitutional approaches now then you have to accept them when we are in power.

Take the House and impeach, allow the judicial remedies to take their course of action.

druidity33

(6,435 posts)
107. Well...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:35 PM
Aug 2018

The Constitution allows for amending the Constitution. That's part of our "nation of laws" as you put it. A document over 200 years old actually demands adjustment. Why is there such a strong push to not consider that?



grantcart

(53,061 posts)
117. For the rather obvious reason that using costitutional methods
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:53 PM
Aug 2018

Are, while very high are achievable, while ammending the constitution are much higher and not realistically reachable

Then there is the most obvious reason: any extra constitutional method that is agreed to will likely be used against us in the future.

Response to grantcart (Reply #80)

SergeStorms

(18,882 posts)
133. We thought a Trump presidency...
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 01:55 AM
Aug 2018

was total fiction as well. Until it happened. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

Cheviteau

(383 posts)
140. Not Really
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 08:49 AM
Aug 2018

If it is proven that Trump was elected with the aid and assistance of a foreign power, annulment certainly would be in order. What you are suggesting is that we can be forced into governmental laws and rules foisted upon us by a foreign adversary. I am of the opinion that Trump is a full-fledged agent of Russia. If I am correct, and it is proven, then the only logical remedy is a complete and total annulment of his every official signature. And, btw, Pence was elected on the same ticket. That makes him ineligible to advance to the presidency.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
143. It's fiction because there is no "annulment" process in the constitution
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 01:25 PM
Aug 2018

We're a nation of laws and that means when the law is broken, we follow the law to fix it. We don't make up something on the spot. There is a process for removing the president -- it's called impeachment. And how would annulment work? Would every law signed by Trump be nullified? Would the government shut down because there is no budget? It's an absurd idea.

BigmanPigman

(51,430 posts)
43. DITTO!
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:04 PM
Aug 2018

I wish, I wish.........in a perfect world it would happen in a heartbeat.

Annul the SCOTUS, the GOP laws (like tax cuts, ACA dismantling), agreements with our foreign allies and enemies, executive orders, the entire cabinet and what they have done, etc.

Democrats_win

(6,539 posts)
6. Are there limitations on what can be amended by constitutional amendment?
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:21 PM
Aug 2018

I think there are things that can't be amended such as the dreadful 2 senators per state rule.

But this annulment idea is great because it would remove his wingnut judges and end his bad-idea tax cuts.

On edit I googled for an answer:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/unamendable.html

It's not entirely black and white.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
12. through the amendment process almost anything is possible, including annulment
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:30 PM
Aug 2018

but good luck getting it ratified given how much cooperation from republicans it would take.

2naSalit

(86,048 posts)
7. This...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:22 PM
Aug 2018


...in the face of overwhelming evidence that his presidency was never authorized under the Constitution, there are ample grounds for arguing it should and can be annulled.



DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,904 posts)
25. That statement isnt remotely true
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:44 PM
Aug 2018

The popular vote doesn't matter. It never mattered. The Electoral College vote matters. The Electors voted trump in. The vote was certified by Congress and the trump was sworn in. Constitutionally he is the President. There is no argument to this.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
54. Emotional response
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:14 PM
Aug 2018

All of these things are driven by emotions. People don't want to acknowledge that Trump is the President of the United States. I understand why, but all these declarations of "he's not my president" are just emotional. He may not be "your" president, but he is THE president. There wasn't a single Russian agent in the EC. They were all legal chosen by their states and accepted by the federal branch. There was nothing "unconstitutional" about it. Yeah, there were alot of "dirty tricks" to get this guy elected. Some were even illegal. That's nothing new and the constitution has provisions to deal with it. None of them were utilized. So on we go.

Vote in November. That'll be the start of "fixing" this mess.

LuvNewcastle

(16,820 posts)
111. Yes, annulment is a fantasy.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 06:51 PM
Aug 2018

I'm a little surprised to see Robert Reich writing about this. Reich doesn't usually write bedtime stories.

There won't be any kind of easy fix for the mess we're in today. If Trump is indicted and refuses to show up in court, who will arrest him? The military might get involved, and that scares me almost as much as Trump serving out his term. It's a sad state of affairs and if Trump continues to act as he has thus far, it's going to be a very ugly scene.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,904 posts)
87. Point out where any of that happened in the Electoral College
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:11 PM
Aug 2018

Because if any of your points are in regard to the vote that occurred in Nov 2016, then it doesnt matter. Constitutionally our votes do not elect the President. The popular vote doesn't matter. The states chose their Electors through their own processes and the Electoral College voted for President. That is the only vote that matters.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,031 posts)
134. from whence do these magic Electors spring?
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 02:27 AM
Aug 2018

I've heard rumors that there are states who choose their Electors via a method popularly known as "winner take all", somehow related to ordinary citizen voters.

Hypothetically, if ordinary citizen voters were defrauded, Electoral College Electors were improperly assigned by the states. Something, something, fruit of the poisonous tree, something or other.

While it doesn't have much hope of ever happening in this world, the annulment Mr. Reich muses about is not precluded by the Constitution.


Dave Starsky

(5,914 posts)
9. And if Grandma had balls, she'd be Grandpa.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:24 PM
Aug 2018

I love Robert Reich, but the current makeup of the House, Senate, and Supreme Court, and the timeframes involved, make this so impossible that it's not even worth talking about, even if 20% percent of the population still hadn't lost their minds.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
11. Ignoring the obvious unconstitutional nature of this
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:30 PM
Aug 2018

There's also the problem of there is no obvious measure to determine what the impact of Russian influence efforts were. It wasn't a single event. You can point to a specific event like the second Comey announcement where Clinton's poll numbers dropped to enough to lose the election. But was she only 6 points ahead at that point because of Russian efforts, the 30 year hatefest Republicans have had for her, because Trump spoke to racial animus and racism, because sexism, because bsd campaign tactics, because of media coverage, because of how hard it is for one party to win 3 elections in a row, because of the economy continuing to be disparate in the recovery?

You can't make a credible claim that the Russian efforts alone were sufficient. There is still exactly zero evidence that votes were changed after being cast. There is plenty of evidence, including actual recounts, that says votes weren't changed after being cast.

It's pie in the sky fantasy on Reich's part.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,786 posts)
14. One way or another it needs annulment. Gorsuch retracted & Kavanaugh denied would be a start.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:30 PM
Aug 2018

Following McCONnell, no judicial confirmations in this the final year of tRump's presidency.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
15. Maybe indicting Trump would fast track to SCOTUS and this be the argument
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:31 PM
Aug 2018

His actions violated the Constitution, therefore does not legally hold the office and has to face charges

If Cavanagh gets on the bench, it would never go through. Gorsuch wouldn't go for it and it's unlikely Roberts would either if it's an 8 member court.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
47. It's not a matter of not agreeing, and it's not a matter of snark.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:06 PM
Aug 2018

It's just the reality that he'd never recuse himself.

All this foolish pipe-dreaming is pointless.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
16. if you had the votes, you could annul each action more directly.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:35 PM
Aug 2018

if we had the presidency and a majority in the house and 2/3rds of the senate, then we could impeach and remove all donnie's appointments and reverse all his laws and executive orders.

but best we'll get is the house and maybe a bare minimum majority in the senate, and a different republican president, at least until 2021. nothings getting annulled. we don't have the votes and there's no way enough republicans would ever stand up and do the right thing when they can do the partisan thing instead.

calimary

(80,693 posts)
135. For me as well.
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 02:32 AM
Aug 2018

Even though I’d be seriously shocked if it actually happened.

It SHOULD happen, though. Fitting deterrent to future scoundrels who might think twice before trying to cheat to this extreme.

Cognitive_Resonance

(1,546 posts)
18. The country was defrauded. Courts have authority to enact remedies. I'd like to see Constitutional
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:37 PM
Aug 2018

scholars debate this issue.

Cognitive_Resonance

(1,546 posts)
85. I'm extrapolating a bit, but if you recall the Russian hackers indicted in February were charged
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:01 PM
Aug 2018

with: "Defendants knowingly and intentionally conspired with each other (and with persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury) to defraud the United States by impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful functions of the government through fraud and deceit for the purpose of interfering with the U.S. political and electoral processes, including the presidential election of 2016."

It's not a stretch that coming indictments will charge U.S. persons referenced as "known and unknown to the Grand Jury" with defrauding the United States.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
20. These suggestions of extra-constitutional ways to be rid of Trump get more hilarious all the time.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:40 PM
Aug 2018

Impeachment/Conviction.......25th Amendment.....PERIOD.

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
22. Never happen unless Democrats had a super-majority in both houses and a majority
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:42 PM
Aug 2018

on the Supreme Court

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
29. I'd bet money that it wouldn't even get past a Left-majority Supreme Court.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:51 PM
Aug 2018

Do you really think that Justice Ginsburg or Justice Kagan would vote to violate the Constitution for political reasons?

mahatmakanejeeves

(56,888 posts)
36. After seeing one thread after another along these lines, I suspect that far too many DUers
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:58 PM
Aug 2018

skipped school every day the year that they were scheduled to take Civics.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
45. The people suggesting such stuff are not serious people who
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:04 PM
Aug 2018

understand much of anything, really. They're just fantasizing randomly. When you don't know what's possible, everything seems possible.

Mostly, I just ignore those threads. That's probably the best response, really.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
139. Agreed
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 08:10 AM
Aug 2018

And even things that are constitutionally possible are, in reality, astronomically unlikely politically. We can't hang our hats on those remedies either.

Grasswire2

(13,564 posts)
42. I think a more likely scenario is that Donald starts a war...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:02 PM
Aug 2018

....or pulls a false flag terror incident. That's his ace.

cab67

(2,962 posts)
40. We have to be realistic.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:59 PM
Aug 2018

There's no way this could happen, however nice it would be.

That being said, there's going to be a real need for hard-core de-trumpification after he's out of office. His successor's first act should be to reverse most of his executive orders.

Nasruddin

(741 posts)
50. Realistically,
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:07 PM
Aug 2018

"first act should be to reverse most of his executive orders."
We can't continue this kind of government by tidal wave. We need a new system.

duforsure

(11,882 posts)
46. I agree
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:05 PM
Aug 2018

A total illegitimate President installed by a foreign enemy. Everything he has done should be changed back.

Karadeniz

(22,267 posts)
52. Reich is Right
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:11 PM
Aug 2018

It would be perfect if all the lawyers could come up with a way to have the entire campaign declared illegal. It has always bugged me that Trump might well be evicted, but his henchmen and the Republican agenda and what it's done will remain. It's not fair, not even close to perfect justice. If Trump, his down ballot, his Congress now have power because of illegal behavior, it's not just that Trump go but all his accessories continue on. The DoJ has constantly taken the safe interpretation of the voter effect of Russian interference as unprovable. That was then and up until now. However, if Trump's acquiescence, sanctioning of Russian interference, can be shown, then he conspired and his campaign was fraudulent. Everyone connected with the campaign...at least at the executive level...needs to go.

If a corporation can have the same rights as a person re: political contributions, then why can't a campaign also qualify as a person?

Why should a Little League baseball game be capable of more perfect justice than the American legal system? If it was shown that a single person on a little league team had played dishonestly, his/her team would be disqualified for that game.

mahatmakanejeeves

(56,888 posts)
53. The only way that Kavanaugh is not going to end up on the Supreme Court is
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:11 PM
Aug 2018

for an armada of flying saucers to crash into the Capitol just as the vote on his appointment is being held.

The Orange, Blue, and Silver Lines are really going to be a mess.







FakeNoose

(32,340 posts)
56. Somebody suggested removing him by civil lawsuit
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:17 PM
Aug 2018

That would take it out of the criminal courts and political/impeachment realm altogether, would it not?

It would have to be done by a nonpolitical American organization with deep pockets, like the American Bar Association or similar. A civil lawsuit can be for reasons other than money damages, it can be to legally make something happen or stop something from happening. The civil courts have jury verdicts but it doesn't have to be unanimous, I think it just has to be a majority. (?)

The lawsuit could demand the resignation of Donald Trump, and show all the proof as reasons why he should resign. The burden of proof would be way lower for a civil case then it is for a criminal case.

Anybody else have ideas on this? I'm not a lawyer but I just read this suggestion in the last couple of days. I think it was on a twitter thread (or maybe it was on DU.)

brooklynite

(93,847 posts)
82. If the ACLU was dumb enough to,propose this, I'd cut off my financial support
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:45 PM
Aug 2018

There is NO civil claim you could make on th outcome of an election.

wundermaus

(1,673 posts)
57. Nothing would be more just than for...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:18 PM
Aug 2018

Hillary Clinton being sworn in as the legitimate President of the United States.
Trump committed fraud (TREASON) against the government and the people of the United States to seize the presidency.
Hillary Clinton is the honest winner of the presidential election and she should be sworn in as soon as he is convicted.

wundermaus

(1,673 posts)
84. Since we have not crossed this bridge before...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:59 PM
Aug 2018

We may need a constitutional amendment.

What would you suggest as a remedy?

Would Pence becoming President be a just result?

I don't think so.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
58. Dems have great ideas...and then Dems cripple each other with nit picking,
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:21 PM
Aug 2018

and why things cant be done that way. the point is to get by the next SCJ...ANYWAY we have to until we can fix this system. EVERYTIME we get a great Democrat w BIG brains...we have the usual cadre of "Democrats" who show up and say why that won't work. All we need is a good argument and a fair answer and we should go at it. The gop sticks together. Maybe we can learn a lesson? We have less than 90 days to figure out a path. One GREAT way of making sure this trump train keeps on rolling, is to BURY the folks who have new refreshing ideas. Reich and Tribe and a few others could mind-bust us out of this...if it weren't for the Naysayers in the party. We don't have a plethora of choices. Once kavanaugh is there...it's done. We already dont know how to remove gorsuch....but lets all sit around and bitch about non-perfect answers and make sure we nuke our way of life until the days we all die.
Being a nit picker doesnt make you smart. Im pretty sure Robert Reich has thought about things like..."Its not in the constitution' etc....The guys got more Blue in his veins than any ten of us on a good day. How's about we say yes to some stuff and start this muther rolling? This country isnt set in stone due to a paper written 200+ years ago. Esoecially when the forefathers never dreamt a president would be public enemy number 1. Just sayin. Juuuusssst sayin.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
73. Where?
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:37 PM
Aug 2018

Every "suggestion" that's getting floated, and all that have been floated since November 9, 2016, involve ignoring the provisions of the Constitution in one way or another. Every.......one. You're asserting that all those of us who point out that there is no provision that would be sanctioned under the terms of the Constitution to accomplish removing Trump from the Presidency other than impeachment, using the 25th amendment in some way or waiting for him to be voted out in 2020 are nit-picking.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
77. I made my "comment", This isnt a research site...its a discussion, take the good leave the bad
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:40 PM
Aug 2018

Im not here to argue w you. Kinda as per the post you are referring to. Have a good Thursday.

MarcA

(2,195 posts)
105. Good Points. Don't know about annulment as GOP would still be in power (Congress).
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:25 PM
Aug 2018

Pence and/or GOP could simply declare they got rid of the crazy guy and
they would do it right this time. They could even put the same guys
back on the SCOTUS and like-minded judges on lower courts. I am more
concerned about what happens if they pass more laws and rules limiting
voting while maintaining our Peculiar Institutions of the Electoral College
and undemocratic Senate. Too often laws and Institutions (even Constitutional
ones) don't protect people; just look at our own history. I do agree when we
get new ideas on DU we get the usual Mount Olympus and Moses types on
here to put everyone in their place.

honest.abe

(8,556 posts)
63. Although this is a huge stretch and will not happen but its does seem appropriate..
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:29 PM
Aug 2018

given the circumstances.

You would think our constitution would allow for an annulment if after the fact it was determined to be a sham election and the winner won by cheating especially given the cheater was assisted by a foreign country.

bucolic_frolic

(42,663 posts)
64. This IS the CRUX of the matter!!! All Trump actions are illegitimate
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:29 PM
Aug 2018

if he cheated to get elected! So are his judicial appointees!!

Annulment is the solution. Why do we have to live with the consequences of theft? Courts reverse illegal actions all the time.

Robert Reich brings more brainpower to the table than anyone

bearsfootball516

(6,369 posts)
68. Because he was legally voted for by the electors.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:32 PM
Aug 2018

Legally sworn in, etc. Voters may have been influenced, but the process from the electors voting to him being sworn in were entirely legal. There's nothing that can be done about that.

bucolic_frolic

(42,663 posts)
74. THere is no present mechanism to do something about that
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:37 PM
Aug 2018

Legitimacy however, can prompt change, and extraordinary measures outside what is permitted under the Constitution.

We are not limited to what the Constitution permits, or to what it prohibits.

The electors in a tainted election are not legitimate either, because the derivation of their power was crooked.

There is no sound basis for your position or logic. Stop with the Right Wing talking points!

bearsfootball516

(6,369 posts)
79. We aren't limited to what the Constitution permits?
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:42 PM
Aug 2018

That's flat out wrong. And I'm not parroting right wing talking points. I'm laying down facts and not divulging into impossible fantasy.

inwiththenew

(972 posts)
70. When you are not constrained by reality the solutions are unlimited
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:34 PM
Aug 2018

Unfortunately that's not how things work. Again like I said in another thread more masturbatory fantasy. There are real world solutions supported by established law and the Constitution to remedy the situation. We don't need to invent these fantastical scenarios that have next to no possibility one even happen or two being upheld by the courts.

 

Liberalagogo

(1,770 posts)
72. I'm guessing something like this would require
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 03:36 PM
Aug 2018

a Constitutional Convention and a large vote over a decade or so.

The only reason something like this is not addressed in the Constitution is that the Founding Fathers would never dreamed of something like this nightmare we are in actually happening: that one major political party would become so EVIL and corrupt that it would have absolutely no honor at all and would do anything, including treason, to stay in power.

It's an elegant solution, but won't help in the here and now.

Response to brooklynite (Reply #88)

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
89. I'll listen to everyone pretending they know what they're talking about.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:20 PM
Aug 2018

And take this for what it's worth. No less. No more.

And take it along with the faux-constitutional scholars I'm reading who have only to wear white wigs to make the absurdity one step more bemusing.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
92. If we can't impeach him...a well understood process
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:30 PM
Aug 2018

I doubt that we can annul him, a process which only exists in an opinion column.

Most other countries have a different term for this though. Overthrow and Revolution.



fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
132. In all seriousness no.
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 01:06 AM
Aug 2018

If that were true, Half of the people in the discussion would be dead, the other half in jail.

Revolution would be 10,000 times worse that what we are experiencing right now.

PBC_Democrat

(401 posts)
95. Almost as likely as ...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:42 PM
Aug 2018

Last edited Sat Aug 25, 2018, 02:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Me getting mauled by a brown bear, a polar bear, bitten by a shark, and winning the lottery ... on the same day.

I wholeheartedly agree with the poster that recommended FOCUS!
That and GOTV efforts are the only remedy.

We need to take back the HoR in Nov and then lay the groundwork for taking back the Senate and the White House on 2020.

Then deliver on making life better for the middle class.

tclambert

(11,080 posts)
98. Who would have the authority to declare it annulled?
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:56 PM
Aug 2018

The Supreme Court? Congress? The current cowards won't even impeach the bastard. Even if the blue wave takes over control of both houses of Congress, will any Democrats have the balls to propose an annulment? There's a good chance they will chicken out on impeachment, let alone annulment.

jimlup

(7,968 posts)
100. Unfortunately, given the political sitation
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:00 PM
Aug 2018

Never minding how legitemate such an action might be it ain't gonna happen.

House of Roberts

(5,120 posts)
102. I recall annulment of a marriage
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:08 PM
Aug 2018

required that the marriage hadn’t been consummated. Since right now I am feeling pretty consummated, I don’t think this is going to work.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
104. Pure fantasy, the constitution has what can be done, no such thing is possible and
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:24 PM
Aug 2018

Reich is sounding delusional

Panich52

(5,829 posts)
106. Best benefit would be no Pence in Oval
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:33 PM
Aug 2018

Trump's a Q-nut himself but Pence is full-bore theocrat who also has idiotic economic ideas.

usaf-vet

(6,094 posts)
108. If only! If only we could reverse this stolen election and it's results.
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:55 PM
Aug 2018

I would start by removing the entire Trump corrupt government. Starting with Trump and everybody he has appointed right down to the grounds keepers if necessary.

Then I would send the justice in the stolen SCOTUS seat back to the Federalist Society and Kavanaugh would just be a name in the history books under "could have been"

But I would not in the current Citizen United environment lobby for a Constitutional Convention. That is exactly what the Koch brothers and the Mercers and the other 1%ters want. A way to destroy the protections afforded to every American while at the same time adding additional powers to the 1%ters. They would simply overwhelm us all with billions of dollars to buy THEIR new CONstitution.

 

proglib217

(88 posts)
110. Let's just make things up as we go along
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 06:33 PM
Aug 2018

As much as I'd love to see it, and as just as it would be, I can guarantee you it's never. gonna. happen.

sarisataka

(18,213 posts)
113. And I also want
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:09 PM
Aug 2018

Nay, I DEMAND a unicorn

*sigh*
The Constitution is not that long of a document. I wish people would actually read it sometime.

bucolic_frolic

(42,663 posts)
116. Someone will bring suit on this next year
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 07:43 PM
Aug 2018

If cheating is proven, if the vote count was tainted and the fraud unfairly won, stochastic echoes of illegitimacy are provable by logical argument. It would take our flexible Constitution to create a mechanism for reversing the consequences, but we've faced crises before. Acts of Congress, Presidential Commissions, Judicial Review ... it's not without possibilities. Not likely, but not impossible. A thorough Congressional review of everything Trump has done with revotes on everything in a new Congress would be in order, in my view. This path we're on is tainted.

onenote

(42,374 posts)
144. Who would have standing to sue?
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 01:27 PM
Aug 2018

Remember the birther controversy? Remember how suits were brought challenging Obama's eligibility to be president? Remember how each and every one was tossed on standing grounds?

onenote

(42,374 posts)
124. And after this ridiculous "annulment" occurs (how?) who is president?
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 08:50 PM
Aug 2018

And exactly what actions are annulled? Every piece of legislation signed by Trump, even those passed by a veto proof, bi-partisan majority? Every action taken by Trump appointees? Would the FCC rejection of the Sinclair-Tribune merger be reversed?

It's an extraordinarily silly idea.

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
127. If/when Dems get control of Congress, demand such boldness. No more...
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 09:25 PM
Aug 2018

... mamby-pamby water-under-the-bridge bygones stuff.

=========

StarzGuy

(254 posts)
128. Yep
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 11:00 PM
Aug 2018

I do agree that the only way to undo this fraudulent instillation of this mob boss and his cronies along with all the damaging insults to our environment and constitution would be to declare trumps election null and void. Expunging all that has transpired. This would be a true renewal of the United States of America.

I suppose we can dream...

karin_sj

(805 posts)
129. YES!!
Thu Aug 23, 2018, 11:33 PM
Aug 2018

This is the only reasonable and fair thing that can be done to in response to this illegitimate, illegal, and immoral presidency.

 

MadDAsHell

(2,067 posts)
136. What does not authorized under the Constitution mean?
Fri Aug 24, 2018, 06:55 AM
Aug 2018

Is the Constitution that prescribed on what’s an “authorized Presidency” vs “unauthorized?”

Keep in mind these are the legislative bodies that debated the meaning of the word “is” in the late 90’s. I’m skeptical.

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