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DemocracyMouse

(2,275 posts)
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 11:59 AM Aug 2018

Libertarianism is officially dead

The events of this past week, indeed of Trump's entire self-serving, hyper-capitalist modality, have done us at least one favor: Ayn Rand's libertarian creed is now exposed for what it is – lawless, self-serving chaos.

We have had several centuries of historical experiments and the outcome could not be more clear: good government and robust economy and meaningful participation in both is a BALANCING act. These in pure form do not work:

monarchy
capitalism
libertarianism
socialism
communism
anarchy

If we define democracy as a civic infrastructure informing a civic economy it escapes the list above and we can position it as an emerging alternative leading towards a solution.

When protesters shout "this is what democracy looks like!" they (we) are effectively acknowledging that there are no clean, simple solutions. Complex and messy civic involvement is really quite natural. The new thinking in biology supports the notion that a complex balancing of the individual with the collective, freedom with responsibility, has always lead to the most satisfactory state of health (homeostasis). The new paradigm I'm fond of expresses this balancing act thus:

A civil, democratically informed, infrastructure gives rise to a civil, small business economy (with plenty of room for a not-for-profit sector). The soundbite version:

DEMOCRACY =
CIVIL INFRASTRUCTURE x FREE ENTERPRISE

(Feel free to provide balance to my language in the great North African tradition of uncompleted sentences in group decision-making).

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Libertarianism is officially dead (Original Post) DemocracyMouse Aug 2018 OP
It was never alive...In the first place. False beliefs based on false values beachbum bob Aug 2018 #1
I've always associated Libertarianism with greed The Genealogist Aug 2018 #2
So agree that a libertarian society would not be sustainable. Hortensis Aug 2018 #23
Hmmm. Crutchez_CuiBono Aug 2018 #27
Good thing there are relatively few of the real thing. Hortensis Aug 2018 #34
Ayn-Randism is objectivism, not libertarianism. More correctly termed Selfishness & Narcissism. nt Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #3
Objectivism indeed Brawndo Aug 2018 #6
I Agree, And I love this quote njhoneybadger Aug 2018 #8
Great quote and goes to the heart of the philosophy Brawndo Aug 2018 #11
There is no doubt that her philosophy had some major flaws and contradictions njhoneybadger Aug 2018 #14
Agreed Brawndo Aug 2018 #15
her ideology was a result of her childhood experience AlexSFCA Aug 2018 #31
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2018 #35
Works well for an individual? Bullshit. Adrahil Aug 2018 #10
A distinction is necessary Brawndo Aug 2018 #13
weasel words. Adrahil Aug 2018 #18
Nice unnecessary use of invective there Brawndo Aug 2018 #19
Exhibit A: Rand Paul dalton99a Aug 2018 #4
Libertarianism is just a modern form of Feudalism. MicaelS Aug 2018 #5
No. Nothing like feudalism. No inherited aspect of government, at all. Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #7
Well, not everything you wrote is incorrect. PETRUS Aug 2018 #20
Not everything you wrote is incorrect. Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #21
Sophistry. PETRUS Aug 2018 #24
Sophistry. Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #25
Okay....? PETRUS Aug 2018 #26
I get your point and I supported my argument and contradicted yours. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #30
Not that I can see. Want to try again, using more or different words? nt PETRUS Aug 2018 #33
I would add Social Responsibility to your formula Yavin4 Aug 2018 #9
A civic infrastructure, since it is civic, is by definition socially responsible DemocracyMouse Aug 2018 #36
Social responsibility needs to be explicitly stated Yavin4 Aug 2018 #38
By definition, there can be no libertarian society lindysalsagal Aug 2018 #12
I remember back in college when these geniuses "discovered"... TreasonousBastard Aug 2018 #17
Libertarians are fine with roads, clean water, courts, laws, schools, banks, legal currency and insp Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2018 #22
Libertarianism may be dead, but it had little to do with Rand.. TreasonousBastard Aug 2018 #16
hmm. interesting. Crutchez_CuiBono Aug 2018 #29
Not really. Its economic policies have taken over the Republican party. pnwmom Aug 2018 #28
On another forum years ago, Onyrleft Aug 2018 #32
Ayn Rand??? I would love to hear more thoughts about what I said about ALL panaceas - DemocracyMouse Aug 2018 #37

The Genealogist

(4,723 posts)
2. I've always associated Libertarianism with greed
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:15 PM
Aug 2018

I think of it as misanthropic and pessimistic. It caters to the basest emotions and qualities in people, like greed and selfishness. I think a libertarian society is not possible; it is hard to have a society when it is every person for him or her self. Libertarianism belongs on the scrap heap of bad ideas.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
23. So agree that a libertarian society would not be sustainable.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:54 PM
Aug 2018

I've read about libertarianism, mostly before studies started hiding protectively from public view, and failed to be funded of course. Experts agree with you. As a political fad it might be passing, but it'll always be with us.

That's because it's first of all a personality type that sets personal freedom above all other moral values. It's often mistaken for social liberalism but is very different. The more extreme the libertarian, the less other morals come into play at all. I've read speculation of about 13% of all people. Altruism is almost nonexistent in real libertarian types, and they tend to see it as a weakness of fools.

In libertarianism as a political ideology, all this is glorified. To themselves. Its inevitable results, such as expecting people on dialysis to pay their own way economically, are not normally discussed in public, at least not by people like Paul Ryan, since they would include death for all those dependent on taxing others to survive.

Most who claim to be libertarians are, of course, just the kinds of hypocrtical conservatives drawn to an ideology that puts a better face on callousness, greed and selfishness. Both conservatives and liberals value altruism and duty to others and deplore what needs to be hidden.

Back to imaginings of its death, I've been thinking that a natural progression for libertarian billionaires, both intrinsic and poseurs, would be to an authoritarian system that would both protect their wealth from the perils of too much libertarian freedom and facilitate the accumulation of always more.


Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
27. Hmmm.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 04:12 PM
Aug 2018

That was a satisfying read. Summed up every person I know who liked to call themselves libertarians.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
34. Good thing there are relatively few of the real thing.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 05:42 PM
Aug 2018

There are ways of dealing with our new epidemic lifestyle diseases and other problems besides the "cleansing" genocides few have the guts to be honest about. And probably people would object.

Which brings us back to DemocracyMouse's thoughts.



Brawndo

(535 posts)
6. Objectivism indeed
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:31 PM
Aug 2018

I've read a lot of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism, in my opinion, works well as a guide for an individual but should never be applied as an ideology for governing .

njhoneybadger

(3,910 posts)
8. I Agree, And I love this quote
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:48 PM
Aug 2018

“In the name of the best within you, do not sacrifice this world to those who are at its worst. In the name of the values that keep you alive, do not let your vision of people be distorted by the ugly, the cowardly, the mindless in those who have never achieved integrity. Do not lose your knowledge that our proper estate is an upright posture,
an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark, in the hopeless swamps of the approximate, the not-quite, the not-yet, the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish, in lonely frustration for the life you deserved, but have never been able to reach. Check your road and the nature of your battle. The world you desired can be won, it exists, it is real, it's yours.”

Brawndo

(535 posts)
11. Great quote and goes to the heart of the philosophy
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:58 PM
Aug 2018

I've always thought that Ayn Rand got a bad rap due to the misinterpretation that conservatives who reference her make. In much the same way that evangelicals are awful representatives of christianity, conservatives mistake the message that Rand was trying to convey. "Don’t work for my happiness, my brothers—show me yours—show me that it is possible—show me your achievement—and the knowledge will give me courage for mine."

njhoneybadger

(3,910 posts)
14. There is no doubt that her philosophy had some major flaws and contradictions
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 01:51 PM
Aug 2018

It comes down to sacrifice and values. Her example was If we love and value our children it's not a sacrifice to provide for them. Altruism in her mind was making a sacrifice for something she didn't value.
The problem is she only valued herself and her philosophy never made her happy it failed her.
Selfishness failed her.

Brawndo

(535 posts)
15. Agreed
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 01:54 PM
Aug 2018

Thank you for stating it better than I could. I'd never say that it would work for everybody, but some find inspiration in it.

AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
31. her ideology was a result of her childhood experience
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 04:44 PM
Aug 2018

a very specific set of circumstances took place when her family business became victim of communist revolution. Her philosophy does have some valid aspects, IMO. Atheism is essential for civil society, individual rights and individual property rights stand above all.

Response to AlexSFCA (Reply #31)

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
10. Works well for an individual? Bullshit.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:55 PM
Aug 2018

Her philosophy is that altruism is immoral. That selfishness is a virtue. It's not and it isn't

Brawndo

(535 posts)
13. A distinction is necessary
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 01:11 PM
Aug 2018

You are omitting a key word there. She advocated for RATIONAL self-interest. Selfishness is a trigger word, kind of like a catchy headline which will provoke an emotional reaction. When you read further the notion gets fleshed out. Are you trying to make the argument that humans are not motivated by rational self interest? How many people do you think are completely motivated by altruism? Do you think we would be dealing with the global problems we have if altruism was our default setting? It needs to be a mixture of public well-being and individual rights, which is part of the original poster's point. Not all of any one ideology but a balance.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
18. weasel words.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 02:58 PM
Aug 2018

She believes that charity is immoral.

I think the concept of "rational self-interest": is a weak ass excuse for people to justify their own selfish behavior. It elevates the individual above all else. It is a useless concept since what constitutes "rational self interest" is entirely subjective. It can be, and IS, used to justify behaviors which are destructive to functional social society.

And yes, I do see people motivated by altruism. And no, I do not think altruism is our default mode. That is why it is a virtue. It must be aspired to and achieved.

Nothing I said abrogates individual rights. But individuals exist within a context. It is a mistake to see the individual and the community as being at odds with each other, IMO. When I had a recent huge political fight with my in-laws, I had a hard time getting them to understand this basic concept. We are each individuals, but humans are social animals. What the community does, or does not do, affects individuals, and what individuals do or do not do, affects the community.

Rand's philosophy elevates the individual above all else. It is a false dichotomy and corrosive proposition, IMO. I think we, as individuals, DO have a duty to our fellow citizens. Rand rejects such an idea.

Brawndo

(535 posts)
19. Nice unnecessary use of invective there
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:11 PM
Aug 2018

Respectful disagreement too difficult for you eh? It seems I've failed to impress you, let me get to work on feeling bad about that.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
5. Libertarianism is just a modern form of Feudalism.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:26 PM
Aug 2018

It is about property and property rights above everything else.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,789 posts)
7. No. Nothing like feudalism. No inherited aspect of government, at all.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:40 PM
Aug 2018

In libertarianism personal freedom is transcendent. Property rights are a subsidiary right of personal right and subservient. Personal freedom includes gender identity, sexual identity, free speech, free thought, free expression, freedom of religion, free press, among other things. Those override property rights. You can't use property rights to keep a serf on your land working, under libertarianism. You can't use property rights to throw a person into the Tower for worshipping a relic or holy water or a tree.



PETRUS

(3,678 posts)
20. Well, not everything you wrote is incorrect.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:40 PM
Aug 2018

But a couple of things of critical importance are wrong. In libertarianism personal freedom is not transcendent, and does not override property rights. One does not have freedom of speech, etc. on (someone else's) private property - for example: at my house, or at your place of work (if you are not the owner). If you are at my business or my home, I can act on your person without your consent (eject you) or have the state do it for me. Libertarianism is about authority based on property. Authority and freedom are in opposition.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,789 posts)
21. Not everything you wrote is incorrect.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:47 PM
Aug 2018

You don't have freedom of speech on someone else's property, but that is already a limitation and personal property is limited in size and scope. You can't use property (money) to shut down somebody's free speech (buy their silence against their will), but you can use free speech to advocate limiting somebody's property.

Ejection off property is about all you can do. You can't duct tape a speaker's mouth just because they are on your property. Libertarian property rights are based on personal freedom and descend from personal freedom. It's not authority to use one's own property; it's freedom to use one's own property.

PETRUS

(3,678 posts)
24. Sophistry.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:58 PM
Aug 2018

Property is a social convention, and there is no fixed version of this offered by god or nature (history offers a variety of incompatible concepts). Owning something isn't about having freedom to access and use it as one cares to - if something is unowned, one is free to access or use it - it's about imposing restrictions on other people's freedom to access and use it.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,789 posts)
25. Sophistry.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 04:06 PM
Aug 2018

Property is a social convention and less of an innate concept or state than personal freedom.

Some Native American people and some other societies have a philosophical history where property rights are very weak, where the convention is not very strong. (When they are enmeshed with modern US society they are more likely to follow the new than the old, perhaps.)

A thug can take away all your property including most of your body but not your most innate core freedoms: to think and to believe. All freedoms we claim and gain flow from that core. Including the idea of property rights.

Yavin4

(35,357 posts)
9. I would add Social Responsibility to your formula
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 12:52 PM
Aug 2018

All of us have at least a minimum of Social Responsibility that we ALL should follow in a healthy, productive society.

DemocracyMouse

(2,275 posts)
36. A civic infrastructure, since it is civic, is by definition socially responsible
Mon Aug 27, 2018, 12:06 AM
Aug 2018

Yes? No?

DEMOCRACY = CIVIC INFRASTRUCTURE x FREE ENTERORISE

Yavin4

(35,357 posts)
38. Social responsibility needs to be explicitly stated
Mon Aug 27, 2018, 12:05 PM
Aug 2018

"CIVIC INFRASTRUCTURE" is a little broad. IMHO, Social Responsibility is something that EVERYONE needs to practice. For example, free college/vocational training is part of the Civic Infrastructure, but everyone has a responsibility to attend these schools and should not abuse the privilege.

lindysalsagal

(20,444 posts)
12. By definition, there can be no libertarian society
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 01:01 PM
Aug 2018

just like there have been no societies that have seriously attempted communism: Both titles disguise selfishness and greed and irresponsibility as elightened social engineering.

People who claim to be libertarian should not be allowed to live enywhere that there are roads, clean water, courts, laws, schools, banks, legal currency or inspected food.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
17. I remember back in college when these geniuses "discovered"...
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 02:36 PM
Aug 2018

libertarianism and couldn't wait until the revolution arrived.

Funny thing was, we were all going to City College of NY back then when it was free.

And don't them who will provide police and prisons, road and bridge repair, medical care for the indigent, or anything else. They would rant on for an hour and not actually say anything.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,789 posts)
22. Libertarians are fine with roads, clean water, courts, laws, schools, banks, legal currency and insp
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 03:50 PM
Aug 2018

... and inspected food.

In the purist most rabid radical form of libertarianism they object to use of force to pay for all that stuff.

But setting up the rabid form and knocking it down is just like setting up the most rabid form of socialism (communism) and knocking it down. Easy to do, satisfying to a few, but essentially useless noise.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
16. Libertarianism may be dead, but it had little to do with Rand..
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 02:30 PM
Aug 2018

She hated libertarians and considered them nothing more than anarchists.

It's easy to confuse her presumably enlightened self-interest with simple license, but she seems to have thought that humans were smart enough to expand their individual self-interest to something more social. Kind of like a "group" self interest. Altruists were idiotic, she said, but she did work out an Objectivist ethical system. Of course, her Objectivist groupies seemed quite robotic-- kind of like the present day fanatics we all know and love.

Alas, her ethical system was as confused as her epistemology-- it seemed to be going around in circles.

Anyway, although she would have hated to hear it said that she was a lot like Marx, she did seem to share his understanding of many problems, but, also like him, her solutions were just nuts.

And never forget that she ended up going on Medicare and Social Security during her last days.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
28. Not really. Its economic policies have taken over the Republican party.
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 04:15 PM
Aug 2018

They don't really care about the rest -- just the selfishness.

Onyrleft

(344 posts)
32. On another forum years ago,
Sat Aug 25, 2018, 04:52 PM
Aug 2018

I pointed out that Ayn rhymed with mine. Not the way an adult pronounces it, the way a toddler shouts it.

This earned me a lot of respect from several Randroids who said that I "really got it".

SMMFH

DemocracyMouse

(2,275 posts)
37. Ayn Rand??? I would love to hear more thoughts about what I said about ALL panaceas -
Mon Aug 27, 2018, 12:11 AM
Aug 2018

...and the value of BALANCING self-interest with altruism...

....and the formula:

DEMOCRACY = CIVIC INFRASTRUCTURE x FREE ENTERPRISE

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