Can we be honest about McCain for a minute? If it weren't for Trump...

[bitterross]

If it were not for Trump, I doubt people would be doing so much to defend a Republican Senator. Let's be very clear here. McCain was a Republican Senator who voted the party line the majority of the time.

- McCain was very much part of the "Pro-Life" fetus-worship cult
- McCain voted against the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
- McCain was against ending Don't Ask, Don't Tell
- McCain voted against adding federal protections based on sexual orientation
- McCain was for repealing the ACA until the very end and that last vote to screw Trump. Like most Republicans, he campaigned in his last Senate race on a promise to repeal and replace the law with something better.
- McCain voted against giving DC representation in congress
- McCain voted for Chamber of Commerce legislation almost all the time
- McCain voted AGAINST Sonia Sotamayor for SCOTUS
- McCain voted for repealing the Estate Tax

McCain gets a lot of credit for that one time he defended Obama during the Presidential campaign. But people have forgotten the rest of his campaign stoked the meme that Obama was a Muslim. McCain propped up Sarah Palin who said "Barack Hussein Obama" with an emphasis on "Hussein" as often as she could. Hell, he gave us that deplorable Sarah Palin in the first place.

So, let's be honest about McCain. He was a Republican who voted like a Republican. If he hadn't been such a thorn in Trump's side we'd be saying respectful things and not dancing on his grave. Because that is type of people we are.

I don't think we'd be doing all this hero-worship I'm seeing though. I really don't think his overall record bears out any reason he deserves that. When we look at his vote that "saved" the ACA I don't really believe it mattered as much as people would like to think. Frankly, I think he saved the GOP from shooting itself in the foot on that one more than anything. All they've done now, is to go about dismantling the ACA by more covert methods.

No, I don't wish ill for his family. I've lost both of my parents so I have sympathy for his family. I just don't think he deserves the hero-worship he's getting here.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it knowing lots of people disagree.

[DURHAM D]

1. Voted against MLK holiday. nt

[marylandblue]

2. Did one other good thing - campaign finance reform

Cosponsored McCain-Finegold which Citizen United gutted.

[DownriverDem]

34. His final vote

which did save the ACA.

[BootinUp]

3. Hero worship? More like paying respects

Don’t u think? I certainly haven’t seen any hero worship.

[NewJeffCT]

7. agreed

He was old school in disagreeing with somebody during the day, but having a drink with them after work is done.

[meadowlander]

16. +1

You can acknowledge his faults and disagree with his positions while still acknowledging that he was a genuine war hero and that he at least had integrity and the courage of his convictions.

And I don't believe in tearing people down on the day of the funeral or while their family and friends are still in open grief. He's dead. We have the rest of our lives to criticize him and disagree with his policy positions. We don't need to do it today.

And if it all makes Trump look worse by comparison and annoys him, that's all gravy.

[EffieBlack]

39. Thank you.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. Did you see the "he's our hero now" thread?

[BootinUp]

32. I'm thinking you missed the point, have not read it.

[treestar]

62. +1. I do not think he is as much a villain

as people sometimes make of the opposition. Yes, we disagree with him, but he disagreed with others and could still get along with them. And he did draw the line at the Orange Idi Amin, which many Republicans have failed to do.

He's not like others where we might come close to grave dancing, like Cheney or the Tangerine Idi Amin himself.

[joshcryer]

4. Well yeah, if the Republicans in general weren't so horrific...

...nobody would care. McCain with all his faults was still better than the ones currently holding power. And that's a statement that is sick to make.

[UTUSN]

5. I agree with you & have my own list of things, and have deferred to the prevailing honorifics here.

All of us are a mix of all feelings, high and low. I love my fellow Dems who are of the school of "the high road" and "we're better than that/them" - but I don't consider my mixture to be "better than" the wingnuts or whomever. I detest SHITLER and welcome *any* kind of resistance to him, high or low in any form it takes and at every opportunity. I had a derogatory nickname for McCAIN during the campaign and have not used it during this period. I *do* have my limits!1 Once he's buried I'll post a treasury of the zingers at SHITLER from both funerals.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

6. It's a funeral. Lots of emotions. Someone has died and we set the example for

folks who don't know what that looks like. He's gone now so we don't have to worry about adding to the list above...his replacement will do that. It's the holiday weekend. If it ruined your karma for awhile then maybe just shake it off?
There will be time enough for counting, when the dealings done. And for today it sounds like Pres Obama sent the world a message.
It's a national holiday. We have forever to rank out John Mccain. That's why i won't watch it. We all have a few choices left. Today Im going to be glad to be alive and remember that 'death hurts the living the most'.
Happy Holiday Weekend.

[cos dem]

8. If McCain represented the worst of Republicans, instead of the best, ...

I don't think I would feel any differently.

Disagreed with him on everything you list. Disagreeing on policy is not the the worst thing in the world.

I thought he could be insulting at times, perhaps more so than some are remembering. He directed some insults at Obama that I thought were stupid (I recall "feckless" used multiple times).

At the end of the day, I can still respect him, because he wasn't an ass all the time. Which is more than I can say for pretty much the rest of Republicans.

[nycbos]

10. Re: Disagreeing on policy is not the the worst thing in the world.

That his how democracy is supposed to work.

[nycbos]

9. You can honor a man;s service to his country while disagreeing with him on every issue.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. People are basically nuts-- I have no idea how we evolved as far as we have...

Democrats praising him as a saint and Republicans demonizing him.

Nuts, I say!

But, although I disagreed with maybe 90% of his political thought, I never thought he was dishonest, or any sort of lowlife.

He believed in and fought for his country, as I do mine, and we take our lumps and victories as they come.

Did you know he fought for the last Lincoln Brigade survivor?

The Lincoln Brigade was more than a brigade-- it was a force of largely US soldiers who fought Franco and for the Spanish Republic. Things in Spain were more confused than usual at the time, with Hitler and Mussolini taking Franco's side, Stalin taking a faux-republican side, and a whole bunch of people wandering around in the middle looking for anything to hope for.

When the last survivor was being hounded by Hoover's FBI and anti-Communist hysteria, guess who stood up for a "commie"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/25/opinion/john-mccain-salute-to-a-communist.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur

[jalan48]

22. Dishonest? He was one of the Keating Five.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

[TreasonousBastard]

25. Like any politician with that sort of longevity-- you can always find...

something to complain about. Just look what the other guys are digging up on Hillary.

Keating Five wasn't his finest moment, but it does pretty much pale beside some of the other stuff going on. And not just now.

Come to think of it, there's no one on the planet who ever made the news for anything who has led a perfect life. Imperfection comes with the territory.

Hitchens and others dug up dirt on Mother Teresa-- is there an equation that needs to be balanced to decide whether a person is good or evil? Good enough or evil enough?

[jalan48]

30. The Savings and Loan scandal was a really big thing. I'm not complaining, I'm just not buying the he

was not dishonest statement.

[TreasonousBastard]

33. Yes, it was, and yes he was a lesser player, although still a player in it...

but, again, how perfect does one have to be?

[jalan48]

37. McCain has died. I feel for his family in their time of loss. He's a Republican, I'm a Democrat.

[D23MIURG23]

12. To be fair, he's being lionized more than he deserves

But he did have a few redeeming qualities, and they provide a nice counterpoint to that worthless paskudnyak in the oval office.

[bitterross]

14. I agree with you. I think you get my point.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

46. Isn't that the case for most funerals: More lionization than not?

Like the funeral yesterday for Queen Aretha, Saint Aretha, go in style and in love, but there is always some kind of mess to clean up.

RIP John McCain, RIP Aretha Franklin.

[elleng]

13. Amy Goodman did a fine job, on Democracy Now.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11064596

[moondust]

15. Agree.

Plus he helped cause an awful lot of unnecessary death, disability, destruction, and hardship in Iraq as did many of those attending his funeral and eulogizing him as a hero.

[Demit]

17. 1) Keating Five 2) Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran 3) Sarah Palin.

The people who are saying they merely "disagree with his policies" are forgetting an awful lot. He had wobbly principles and very poor judgment. I'm sure he was good to his family—mostly, except for the occasional calling his wife a trollop and a c*nt in front of reporters—and I would offer them my condolences and mean it, if I were there in person at his funeral. But he had some pretty big failings that he'll be remembered for.

[malaise]

18. I'm celebrating one thing

He humiliated Don the Con

[Demit]

19. Truly the measure of a man.

I'm sure that will be in the biographies, how carefully he planned his final FU to Trump. He sure gave symbolic gestures a lot of thought.

[malaise]

21. For this reason September 1 has new meaning

Every time I play my favorite Belafonte cover, I'll remember how McCain banned the Con from his funeral and laugh


https://m.

[melman]

36. "disagree with his policies"

That's a neat trick isn't it? I noticed that too.

It's like a way of (sort of) acknowledging he had some bad points but brushing them aside at the same time.


People make it seem like he was great with a little bit of bad, when in reality he was full on fucking terrible almost all the time and once in a while he did something decent.

[Blue_true]

20. Don't disagree with the political policy points that you made.

Completely disagree with your hero worship comment. There is no hero worship here, just some respect for a man that had an enormous life, even if we don't agree with his policy choices. Aretha Franklin was hero worshipped, because she earned that adoration.

[BlueStater]

23. He was a deeply flawed man with some really great redeeming qualities.

He could be nasty. He was often an asshole. I haven't forgotten the fact that I stood against virtually everything he was for when he was alive, but I can also recognize the fact that he had a certain amount of honor and integrity as opposed to Trump who has absolutely none.

[melman]

24. Voted against ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia

And fully supported their war on Yemen.

[blaze]

26. He was instrumental in passing the Magnitsky Act

I'm glad for that.

[RandySF]

27. It's called human decency

We don’t have to act like deplorables.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

28. Thank you. ITA.

[John Fante]

31. Hero worship? Pretty much every Democrat

who has eulogized the man has made it a point to say that they disagreed with him on a number of issues, but they still respected the man. That goes for most of the posters here.

You'd rather we take the low road and shit on the man now that he's passed? Sorry, that's not happening.

[paleotn]

35. The enemy of my enemy?

Possibly, but I think McCain reminds many of us of a politics where we could disagree, vehemently at times, but knew neither side was purposefully destroying our institutions, in league with neo-nazis or in the pocket of a foreign adversary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. It seems like you think the poor fella died and ruined all the fun.

SMH

[bucolic_frolic]

40. Yes, we're being played, they are moving us to the political right

but it's still far left of fascism

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

41. You are right.

We are seeing hero worship here for a man who stood essentially for everything Democrats do not stand for.

He also voted against Elena Kagan for the Supreme Court. And against the Martin Luther King Holiday.

His dishonesty was in clear evidence when he moved out of his Congressional District in Phoenix to a much nicer part of town several months before he announced he was running for the Senate. It was well understood that he didn't want to live where his Congressional District was.

I suppose cheating on his first wife, actually abandoning her when he came home from Vietnam isn't all that awful.

I agree that his family and friends deserve condolences for their loss. But he himself does not deserve to be raised up high and for his many terrible votes and stands be glossed over, worse yet forgotten.

If McCain becomes a hero to DU that means a lot of people here are in wilful ignorance of what that man actually was and what he actually did.

[Nitram]

42. I am not one of those who worship McCain as a hero. I hated his politics.

And I will never forget that he was one of those involved in the Reagan-Era Savings and Loan scandal that cost every American a pretty penny.

[Iggo]

43. In a minute. (n/t)

[Liberty Belle]

44. He also voted to open Native American lands up for drilling

and against Native American interests much of the time.

I do honor him for his courage as a POW and in standing up against Trump putting country against party.

But he was a conservative through and through on nearly every issue.

[beachbum bob]

45. McCain did go against GOP...show me ANY other GOP senator that did that

[IronLionZion]

47. He was a worthy adversary

and the last of those types of Republicans

[KrazyinKS]

48. I disagree with a lot of his politics-but we have to find a way to come together

I really believe that is what Trump is doing is dividing us I think at someone else's direction. He simply is not smart enough to do this by himself. The tactics they are using really are brilliant, and they are working. The more we come together, the more Trump gets pushed out, and the dirty tactics the Republicans are using. I really think there is a lot of dirty Russian money in a lot of Republican hands. They are way to quiet. We can not afford to alienate everyone. Have you ever been conned by any one? It is a sinking feeling, and these guys are being conned.

[shadowmayor]

49. And he was no friend to veterans

He consistently got very low marks for his voting record on veteran's issues. DAV gave him a 20 out of 100, Iraq and Afghanistan Vets gave him a "D" and he repeatedly voted to un-fund the VA and voted against more funding for veteran's health care. This is the same man who never failed to find more funding for more wars.

See the republicansforobama.org of all places for a run-down on his record.

[MagickMuffin]

50. Not standing up for his colleague Senator and Candidate John Kerry in 2004

Another Viet Nam war hero who got tarnished by the swiftboaters. I don't recall McCain condemning the attacks on Kerry.

[vi5]

51. He doesn't rise to the level of grave dancing for me....

...and frankly he is the only remaining Republican about whom I can say that, if ONLY for what you said about him defending Obama once or twice and being reasonably graceful in defeat.

Everyone else who has remained a Republican during the Trump years can frankly rot in hell as far as I'm concerned.

[Mr.Bill]

52. Well stated and I agree 100%. n/t

[Blanks]

53. It's been a week of John McCain's life in the news...

It’s more of a Trump slap in the face than anything else.

Sure, he’s a well loved national figure and all, but I think if Bob Dole had died, it’d been a week of Bob Dole, it’s more about celebrating how America was before Trump than honoring McCain specifically.

Kind of a “we don’t need to make America great, it was already great, until you came along” week.

That’s how it seems to me.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

54. Aww..

Was going to tap out some words for you, but it’s all been said. Nothing will ever move you. I don’t mean politically but emotionally.

I’m a Vietnam Vet, I’ve lost many friends in that war, death knows no politics.

Senator McCain spent 5.5 years in a fucking hole of mud sweat, piss, feces, then came back to the U.S., not bitter, ross, but determined, in his way, to serve us.

Politics is a real shitass business, not for the thinskinned. Like the old saying goes “ if ya can’t stand the heat, get outta the kitchen”. Been in politics for over 30 years, local and state we take our lumps and bumps. Even now, our relationships stay apart from our politics. We still leave as friends. We both, dem and repub, not the trumpies, are determined to serve the best we can.

Look at the people that honored the man this weekend, they were able to put aside politics and SEE the man. To see his commitment.

I understand if you can’t put aside politics to understand beyond, then be honest with yourself and bow out of the conversation. That is a whole different conversation for another, more appropriate time.

At that time for what you listed, I’m pretty much on your side, then we will talk.

[Raven123]

55. If you can only see McCain the Republican, your view will be tinted, if not partially obstructed

I disagreed with many of his political opinions/decisions. For me at least, his 5 years as a POW speaks volumes for his character. I think that is true for others. So, yes, his battle with a man who denigrated those 5 years and became POTUS provides a stark contrast and perhaps adds to my own sadness over his passing.

However, I think the services were thoughtfully designed as his last farewell message to family, friends, colleagues, fellow soldiers, constituents, worthy opponents and future generations. It was a rebuke of the indecency that clouds the White House as well as an acknowledgement of his own mistakes ( Note Pailin wasn’t invited ).

Of course part of me also thinks the grace and dignity of the service was a way of showing the indecent ones something they likely will never have for themselves.

[SummerSnow]

56. I remember when McCain complained in 2009 to Obama

that he should not use Marine One, the presidential helicopter, cause it was too costly for taxpayers. I also remember McCain not ever telling another president this same thing, just Obama.

[cornball 24]

57. IMHO, John McCain's Celebration of Life is indicative of all that binds us as true Americans.

I feel sympathy for those who seek to disparage a man who chose to follow a path that would subject him to public scrutiny even upon his death.

[njhoneybadger]

58. If it weren't for tRump, for Christ's sake we are in a fight to save our Democracy

And he was willing to give Barrack Obama the spotlight as his funeral to rally the troops to defend
And fight for his and our Country's Democracy. I believe he deserves praise for that. If that's what
You mean by hero-worship, I'm guilty.

[samplegirl]

59. I too remember

his voting record during the Bush years. I also remember him not answering Letterman about how many houses he owned. He was a war hero and I’ll give him that but I felt there were many very good democrats who deserved a send off equal to McCains.

[torius]

60. If he had become President and died in office

His funeral would usher in President Palin.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Can we be honest here?

While he was on the wrong side of most of the issues I care about, I also have the utmost respect, admiration, and appreciation for and of him. He was the real deal. You do not do as he did in Viet Nam and not be the real deal.

Yes, he was a conservative Republican. Yes, he was on the opposite side of most everything liberals stand for, but he was a good man who loved this country as much as anyone - maybe more than most.

John McCain WAS a genuine hero. The Real Deal.