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Fri Sep 7, 2018, 10:49 PM

When I think about the probable fate of Roe v Wade, my blood boils!

I just saw the segment on the PBS Newshour where they talked to an abortion MD in (I think) N Dakota.

They also talked to several anti-abortion groups. These groups are headed by men.

I cannot stand listening to men holding forth on the sacredness of life when it's carried by a woman. They disregard all her reasons for the abortion and only talk about the new life coming.

These men have no right to interfere with how a woman treats an unwanted pregnancy. They have nothing to say about it, and yet they still hold forth.

We are preparing to enter a very dark period where women's health is under the thumbs of men who think they have the right to tell us how we should live.

I despair for all American women. It will take a huge effort to fight this change state by state.

65 replies, 2382 views

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Reply When I think about the probable fate of Roe v Wade, my blood boils! (Original post)
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 OP
Atticus Sep 2018 #1
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #2
Ilsa Sep 2018 #38
Nay Sep 2018 #62
mopinko Sep 2018 #3
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #8
smirkymonkey Sep 2018 #20
ProudMNDemocrat Sep 2018 #51
leftstreet Sep 2018 #4
BigmanPigman Sep 2018 #5
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #9
Pantagruel Sep 2018 #6
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #10
pnwmom Sep 2018 #12
OnDoutside Sep 2018 #24
Pantagruel Sep 2018 #29
pnwmom Sep 2018 #33
Pantagruel Sep 2018 #34
SMC22307 Sep 2018 #58
onetexan Sep 2018 #52
EffieBlack Sep 2018 #7
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #11
Hortensis Sep 2018 #46
steve2470 Sep 2018 #13
LuckyLib Sep 2018 #14
dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #15
mopinko Sep 2018 #21
dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #35
Silver Gaia Sep 2018 #16
Olafjoy Sep 2018 #17
SharonClark Sep 2018 #18
Pantagruel Sep 2018 #30
dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #36
dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #37
Solly Mack Sep 2018 #19
Hugin Sep 2018 #22
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #25
CrispyQ Sep 2018 #23
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #27
Ilsa Sep 2018 #39
Freddie Sep 2018 #42
stuffmatters Sep 2018 #53
CrispyQ Sep 2018 #54
Lars39 Sep 2018 #55
CrispyQ Sep 2018 #56
Lars39 Sep 2018 #59
CrispyQ Sep 2018 #60
Lars39 Sep 2018 #61
roody Sep 2018 #26
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #28
Freddie Sep 2018 #32
Ilsa Sep 2018 #40
Freddie Sep 2018 #43
catbyte Sep 2018 #31
DFW Sep 2018 #41
CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #44
DFW Sep 2018 #48
Lionel Mandrake Sep 2018 #45
DFW Sep 2018 #47
Lionel Mandrake Sep 2018 #63
DFW Sep 2018 #64
oberliner Sep 2018 #49
Demovictory9 Sep 2018 #50
smirkymonkey Sep 2018 #57
area51 Sep 2018 #65

Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 10:59 PM

1. From a sign at the Women's March: "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!" nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:00 PM

2. It's a great sign and it's true. Thanks, Atticus. n/t

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Response to Atticus (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:40 PM

38. "If men got pregnant, abortion would be offered at

every 7-11 and other convenience stores across the country. If it is just the pills, then why not?

We might need to set up an underground supply chain for morning after pills, chemical abortion, and grant money so poorer women can travel to whichever states keep it legal.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #38)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:48 AM

62. The underground clinics are stocking up on pills even as you speak. There have been

several articles about it. If RvW is truly overturned, there WILL be alternatives, more alternatives than we had back in the 50's and 60's. The problem has always been those crazy laws that make clinics run through so many hoops that they have to close.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:14 PM

3. same dudes who cry about child support from a one night stand.

 

fuck those dudes.
hard.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:48 PM

8. Exactly right!

Hypocrites, all of them.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 06:17 AM

20. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, I think that all men who impregnate women should have

to be on the hook financially for the first eighteen years of the child's life. Even if it was just a one night stand. That might change their tune. So many of these republican men are such disgusting hypocrites.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:18 AM

51. The hypocrisy is that many of these men will make sure their women have access to abortion.....


While denying every other woman the access to even making Contraception ILLEGAL once again as they slash budgets that help people who DO NOT abort.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:16 PM

4. DURec

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:18 PM

5. Kavanaugh is against health insur

by employers for birth control for their employees but is fine with Viagra being paid for 100% by all health insur.

Barefoot and pregnant...oh, goodie

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:49 PM

9. Typical male behavior.

indeed.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:30 PM

6. To all the ladies

too lazy or uninspired to vote in 2016......

What were you thinking?

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:51 PM

10. I doubt very much that thinking is what they were doing.

I am at a loss when it comes to explaining those fools.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:02 AM

12. To all the men too lazy or uninspired to vote in 2016.

What were you thinking?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:12 AM

24. As we now know, there's nothing in the constitution that affects the male body ! ;)

The wider point is that this has been coming for a long time, and being disengaged from what's going on, is why all these advances are now under threat. Maybe this needed to happen for a massive backlash from ordinary decent Americans, who were busy getting on with their lives. At least we hope there is going to a massive backlash.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:47 AM

29. You miss my point

I probably should have clarified.
Women, especially those of child bearing age, have a specific, unmistakable dog in this fight, more than men. They should know a GOP win would lead to this and turn out accordingly.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:09 PM

33. I didn't miss it. You missed mine.

If you think men don't have a stake in ending unwanted pregnancies, you are wrong.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #33)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:31 PM

34. Missing points

We all have a stake in reducing unwanted pregnancies but I believe pregnant women have the most to directly lose. That said, why don't we ever discuss the monetary costs to society of adding millions of unwanted children -they're staggering.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #34)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:08 AM

58. Start the conversation -- start a thread.

Don't wait for others to do it.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:24 AM

52. Dont forget to mention the white educated women who voted for

You-know-who. They are more complicit than those who didnt vote.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:33 PM

7. But thank God, we didn't get Hillary.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #7)

Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:51 PM

11. ABSOLUTELY!

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:27 PM

46. I've lost my tolerance for hypocrites and

people so lacking in insight that they have no idea what they've done. I'm tired of being afraid. It could have been so incredibly different. It's trauma from 2016, no doubt. I don't trust people who claim goals and values to vote them.

As for Roe v. Wade, we still have a chance. Trump's blabbed that he chose Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to criminalize abortion and said that women "will have to be punished." If people learn enough that Collins and Murkowski's can't maintain "plausible deniability" that they know what is intended...

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:06 AM

13. kick and rec Peggy!!!! nt

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:14 AM

14. I would like to believe that if R v W is challenged

there will be women in the streets like this country has never seen before. Massive marches on Washington and every state capitol.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:21 AM

15. You and I are of the age where we fought long and hard for legal abortion.


Looks like we grossly under estimated the tenacity of the patriarchy.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:00 AM

21. never in a million years

 

did i think my daughters would still be fighting this shit.
but here we are. the monsters have come out of the closet we thought we had nailed shut.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:12 PM

35. The upside...


Our generation was fighting for safe abortions and birth control that we had never experienced.

The women born after Roe vs. Wade safe abortion and more importantly, birth control, are not going to want a return to the pre-70's days.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:39 AM

16. What is freaking me out is thinking about

what could happen if Trump goes down, but Pence stays and becomes president... with Kavanaugh on the SC. Republic of Gilead?

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:48 AM

17. Book Club

If Roe v Wade is overturned, my book club will begin running a safe, underground abortion clinic. We are health care professional, empty nesters who marched in Washington on January 21st. If Kavanfraud gets confirmed we start ordering supplies. We have been discussing this for a year and a half and are deadly serious. We will never go back.

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Response to Olafjoy (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:54 AM

18. K&R

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Response to Olafjoy (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:52 AM

30. Response to Roe overturned

Wouldn't the modern way be making sure "morning after" drugs are cheap and readily available?
A "Book Club " clinic seems so 1950's a response?

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #30)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:34 PM

36. Morning after drugs would be outlawed.

and as illegal as cocaine.
There are many reasons why esp. young women do not have access to them even today.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #30)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:38 PM

37. just saw this:


When a patient arrived this spring at the only abortion clinic in western Arkansas, the doctor had startling news: A new state law had gone into effect, and clinics could no longer perform abortions via medication in the state.
Less than a month later, a judge suspended the law, which is now the focus of a legal fight as Arkansas tries to reinstate it. The fight in Arkansas could help define the looming legal battle over abortion, 45 years after the Supreme Court made it a constitutional right.

There are 14 abortion cases currently before federal appeals courts, including the Arkansas case, and legal experts say any of them could be the first to reach the Supreme Court after Justice Anthony Kennedy’s retirement. Others include a parental consent law in Indiana, a ban on a common second-trimester abortion procedure in Alabama, and a requirement in Kentucky that ultrasounds be displayed and described.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211110384

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:29 AM

19. K&R

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:08 AM

22. Hear, Hear!

Anything which causes CaliforniaPeggy to post an OP in DU:GD is an abomination to Nature and Man!

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Response to Hugin (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:40 AM

25. Aw, thank you! I know it's rare for me to post like this. This topic is close to my heart.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:40 AM

23. Not allowing women access to abortion is a violation of the 13th Amendment,

I don't know why the pro-choice groups don't use this argument.

The 13th Amendment and Forced Labor

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth
Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, akoppelman@law.northwestern.edu

I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.

This argument makes available two responses to the standard defense of such prohibitions, the claim that the fetus is a person. The first is that even if this is so, its right to the continued aid of the woman does not follow. As Judith Jarvis Thomson observes, "having a right to life does not guarantee having either a right to be given the use of or a right to be allowed continued use of another person's body -- even if one needs it for life itself."7

Giving fetuses a legal right to the continued use of their mothers' bodies would be precisely what the Thirteenth Amendment forbids.


Man created God to control woman & put himself at the top of the hierarchy of life. But here's the thing. When they put life in a hierarchy like that, their argument of Right to Life just lost its validity because some life has greater rights to life than other life, & of course, they get to decide who!

These men are fucked up, control freak assholes, & the women who vote for them are beyond my understanding.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:43 AM

27. I was unaware of this amendment and the arguments that go with it. Thank you for your post.

I also have no idea why the pro-choice groups don't use it.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:44 PM

39. Even if the pregnant woman would be compelled

to give up a baby after birth if she didn't want it, during her pregnancy she is compelled to not have any alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and not perform certain activities, like horseback riding. She is compelled to eat a certain way, take vitamins, have invasive procedures done, etc. A woman really is a slave to a fetus during pregnancy.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:02 PM

42. When we bring this up to SCOTUS again

And we will, under better circumstances (or after we pack the court) I would like to see our case argued under the 13th amendment rather than the “right to privacy.” And if we ever got the ERA, Sen. Harris’ question will make our point - “how exactly does the government control a man’s body?”

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:30 AM

53. TY, I've have said it for 50+ years: Forced Birth is Slavery.

And these Republican Plantationists (both religiously and politically) are even determined to eliminate women's right/access to birth control.


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Response to stuffmatters (Reply #53)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:26 AM

54. When you take a woman's control over her reproductive cycle away from her,

you take away her control over her life. This is what they want. Taking away our vote is the end game, but too many people think they will never go that far.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #54)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:35 AM

55. Just a quibble...The right to own property is the end game.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #55)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:44 AM

56. Women as property is part of the end game. -nt

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #56)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:46 AM

59. Agreed

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #59)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:00 AM

60. He who dies with the most toys, still dies.

Think they'll ever learn? "They" being the alpha male types who stomp around this planet thinking they are superior while our species stands on an ecological brink. This is super old but I love it.



Oh look, it's an old white guy.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #60)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:23 AM

61. Good 'toon.

It usually is.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:43 AM

26. Women will take charge of their own bodies.

Women in self help groups were practicing menstrual extractions before Roe.

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Response to roody (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:44 AM

28. I have read about them, and you're right.

But there will still be many women who will fall through the cracks.

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Response to roody (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:02 PM

32. Yes, and medications

Over the internet that weren’t available back in the day.
My fear is for women in wanted pregnancies with fetuses that are diagnosed with problems, fatal or even not fatal but would have a poor quality of life. Or adverse results of genetic testing including Downs. This is normally diagnosed too late for a medical abortion. It’s unbelievably inhumane to force her to give birth against her will in any case. Women should consider an underground network providing transportation and funds to legal states (if there are any).

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Response to Freddie (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:46 PM

40. I mentioned developing an underground in another post.

A lot can get covered, but many women, still, will not have access.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #40)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:07 PM

43. Unbelievably infuriating

That we have to even think about that again. That men think they have the right to control our bodies AT ALL.
I have a young granddaughter, and if I’m still here when she’s of childbearing age I will let her know that I will drive her to Canada or do whatever I can if she's in a situation needing to end a pregnancy.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:57 AM

31. It costs them nothing, lets them feel morally superior, allows them to slut shame

and exercise control over women. It's vile.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:57 PM

41. How long do you think it would take?

If Kavanaugh is confirmed, some state with a heavily reactionary legislature would immediately draw up and enact some Draconian anti-abortion-rights measure so awful, a legal challenge is inevitable. It fast-tracks to the Supreme Court, where the Republican Male Catholic Mafia Majority upholds the new statute and overturns Roe v.Wade. Shares of companies that manufacture coat hangers jump 15% the next day. The European Union puts a temporary hold on accepting new refugees from Asia and Africa, in order to handle the sudden influx of refugee seekers from the United States.

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Response to DFW (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:24 PM

44. I don't think it would be quite that fast. Unless the fix is already in.

But something like that (minus the end, which is too fantastic to be realistic! ) would most likely happen.

This outcome is almost too dreadful to contemplate.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #44)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:41 AM

48. When the number of Kowalskis in the Warszawa phone book outnumber the ones in Chicago

You'll know for sure that the tide has reversed in earnest.

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Response to DFW (Reply #41)

Sat Sep 8, 2018, 05:51 PM

45. It's not just Republican male Catholics.

Conservatives have adopted an anti-Roe-v.-Wade agenda to secure the support, not only of Republican Catholics, but also of 'born-again' Protestants, almost all of whom are Republicans. It seems likely that Kavanaugh will be confirmed, which will ensure a long-term Conservative stranglehold on the Supreme Court. Roe v. Wade will probably be overturned. How's that for a shitty scenario?

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Response to Lionel Mandrake (Reply #45)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:38 AM

47. I was referring to the right wing members of the Court

Exclusive dogmatic male right wing Catholics. Might as well be a chapter of Opus Dei. Come to think of it, that may not be as far-fetched as it was intended to be. Unfortunately. This is quickly turning into the century of the control freak, which we had hoped went out with the demise of Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Nixon, Franco and Mao. Now they want Tomás de Torquemada on the Supreme Court.

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Response to DFW (Reply #47)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:18 PM

63. Torquemada would move to expel Jews and Muslims

from the USA. This would require a really creative interpretation of the Constitution. We could also expect a ruling that burning a heretic at the stake is not cruel and unusual punishment.

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Response to Lionel Mandrake (Reply #63)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:28 PM

64. Two years ago, I would have found all of that laughable.

The thought of Kavanaugh, Thomas, Alito, Roberts and Gorsuch inventing a constitutional precedent for removing Ginsburg, Kagan and Breyer from the Court byforce is no longer one I find inconceivable.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:54 AM

49. Around the same percentage of women think abortion should be illegal as men

 

It's about 40 percent of men and 40 percent of women who hold that position.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:07 AM

50. k&r

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:01 AM

57. Honestly, have republicans thought about the societal costs of outlawing abortion?

How do they plan to handle all of these unwanted children? There won't be enough families who will want to adopt, what are they going to do with the overflow? Too many of these women will be unable to afford to take care of another baby. Are they going to subsidize them? I think we all know the answer to that. As usual, they are short-sighted and cruel. They don't care what will happen to the mother and live babies, they just want to punish women for having sex.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Original post)

Sun Sep 9, 2018, 02:02 PM

65. And these are the same men who don't want women on welfare raising these unwanted children.

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