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workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:12 PM Sep 2018

Science academies urge paper ballots for all US elections (No Internet technology is safe)

No Internet technology is safe, secure or reliable for voting, find the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.
Heidi Ledford NEWS 06 SEPTEMBER 2018

Paper ballots that can be tallied by hand are the most secure way to conduct an election, according to a report from the US National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine.

The report, released on 6 September, calls for all US elections to be conducted using such ballots by the 2020 presidential election. It comes after US intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government backed attempts to infiltrate the United States’s election infrastructure during the 2016 presidential election. The report’s recommendations were developed by a committee whose members had experience ranging from computer science to officiating elections.

“The future of voting is one in which a clear tension must be managed,” wrote committee co-chairs Lee Bollinger, president of Columbia University in New York City, and Michael McRobbie, president of Indiana University in Bloomington. “We must prevent bad actors from corrupting our electoral process while delivering the means to provide suffrage to an electorate that is growing in size and complexity.”

For now, that means eschewing voting systems connected to the Internet until “robust guarantees of security and verifiability” are in place, the committee concluded.


https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06611-x
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Science academies urge paper ballots for all US elections (No Internet technology is safe) (Original Post) workinclasszero Sep 2018 OP
K&R CentralMass Sep 2018 #1
not just Internet Hermit-The-Prog Sep 2018 #2
K & R. The truth, but implementation will face real opposition $. appalachiablue Sep 2018 #3
Yes, from Republicans, Russians, and cable TV channels that cover the TryLogic Sep 2018 #7
I haven't liked the MSM election reporting since it started. pazzyanne Sep 2018 #11
those scanners gave franken's oponent the win questionseverything Sep 2018 #25
Actually the 215 vote difference triggered a mandatory recount, which was done by hand. pazzyanne Sep 2018 #31
the scanners originally gave the win to coleman so they did have something questionseverything Sep 2018 #32
The scanner count triggered the mandatory recount. pazzyanne Sep 2018 #34
because the scanner count was incorrect questionseverything Sep 2018 #35
That's precisely what numerous European countries - and most major intelligence agencies - concluded sandensea Sep 2018 #4
I work in high tech and love all electronic/internet technology, BUT until we find a way to iluvtennis Sep 2018 #5
Absolutely TryLogic Sep 2018 #8
If we don't win big in 2018, Mr.Bill Sep 2018 #6
Ever since the 2000 election shadowmayor Sep 2018 #9
I want a barcode (or QR code) on every ballot. CaptainTruth Sep 2018 #10
Sounds good to me as long as those codes can be protected against tampering. erronis Sep 2018 #13
It's why I think voter serial numbered ballots with matching tear-off copies is better (recounts). ancianita Sep 2018 #17
I like your idea. phylny Sep 2018 #14
that is a lot of trouble and expense to keep citizens from overseeing questionseverything Sep 2018 #26
In at least WA and OR everyone votes absentee. OMGWTF Sep 2018 #12
K&R alwaysinasnit Sep 2018 #15
A start, but that won't protect servers with voter registration data that are connected ehrnst Sep 2018 #16
good point defacto7 Sep 2018 #20
you are correct that every part of the system must be guarded questionseverything Sep 2018 #29
Recycled paper yuiyoshida Sep 2018 #18
Was is voting called suffrage ? pangaia Sep 2018 #19
Thumbs up on this one. defacto7 Sep 2018 #21
"Science" is just another name for "dark magic" for Rs ProudLib72 Sep 2018 #22
Sent my request for an Absentee today. True Blue American Sep 2018 #23
Democrats?........anyone there?............. LiberalLovinLug Sep 2018 #24
I agree 100%. Let's face it. Information technology cannot be secured and is not reliable? Raven123 Sep 2018 #27
It Can Be The Foolproof System colsohlibgal Sep 2018 #28
On August 11, a Democratic Underground Scientist urged a similar idea.. Stuart G Sep 2018 #30
+++ Agree. iluvtennis Sep 2018 #33
Yeah, let the russian assholes try to Cha Sep 2018 #36

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,328 posts)
2. not just Internet
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:16 PM
Sep 2018

No electronic system can be made as secure and verifiable as paper ballots. The public can watch the paper without knowing who made the marks on it. Electrons are not so easy to see.

TryLogic

(1,722 posts)
7. Yes, from Republicans, Russians, and cable TV channels that cover the
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:38 PM
Sep 2018

hurry-and-get-the-results incoming tallies. Breathless excitement! Money and ratings first.

pazzyanne

(6,547 posts)
11. I haven't liked the MSM election reporting since it started.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:08 PM
Sep 2018

MSM is calling elections far to early IMHO. Minnesota uses paper ballots with scanners, which seems to have worked well so far.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
25. those scanners gave franken's oponent the win
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:23 PM
Sep 2018

took 8 months for the recount

thankfully they do have decent re count laws but most places don't

hand marked hand counted paper ballots in full public view is the answer

pazzyanne

(6,547 posts)
31. Actually the 215 vote difference triggered a mandatory recount, which was done by hand.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 08:20 PM
Sep 2018

During the recount, the absentee ballots had some discrepancies found. After the recount, Al held a 225 vote lead. Norm Coleman contested the count and a 3 judge panel dismissed Coleman's Notice of Contest. Coleman then took the case to the Minnesota Supreme Court where his case was unanimously rejected on June 30th resulting in his being sworn in in July. The scanners really had nothing to do with what happened. You are right in that Minnesota has good election laws.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
32. the scanners originally gave the win to coleman so they did have something
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 08:29 PM
Sep 2018

to do with it

but yes the recount laws made the dif ...Wisconsin has terrible election laws...the counties get to decide wether to hand count or machine count

http://www.wisconsinelectionintegrity.org/racinecountymiscounts


The highest error rate was in the City of Racine’s Ward 26, where election officials failed to count 6.1% of the votes, even during the recount. More than 1 in every 17 voters were disenfranchised in that ward. Detailed results are here, for each candidate and ward.

pazzyanne

(6,547 posts)
34. The scanner count triggered the mandatory recount.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 08:45 PM
Sep 2018

During the hand recount it was discovered that there was a discrepancy in the counting of the absentee ballots. I don't get your connecting this to a scanner problem.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
35. because the scanner count was incorrect
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 08:50 PM
Sep 2018

and while it worked out fine for minn

other states use scanners and it does not work out



http://www.wisconsinelectionintegrity.org/racinecountymiscounts

The highest error rate was in the City of Racine’s Ward 26, where election officials failed to count 6.1% of the votes, even during the recount. More than 1 in every 17 voters were disenfranchised in that ward. Detailed results are here, for each candidate and ward.

Wisconsin Elections Commission officials believe the voting machines failed to detect the votes because voters had marked ballots with types of ink that the machines could not detect. After other counties hand-counted the recount and discovered the high rates of missed votes, the WEC decertified the machines (prohibited their future use in Wisconsin) in late September.

County Clerk Wendy Christensen has not yet publicly explained why the county board of canvassers chose twice to certify the results as 'correct and true' without checking, despite the obviously suspicious number of missing votes.

"We needed the manual count to get the truth,” said Village of Pleasant Prairie voter Liz Whitlock, who was among the recount observers who could see the voting machines missing votes.

sandensea

(21,624 posts)
4. That's precisely what numerous European countries - and most major intelligence agencies - concluded
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:02 PM
Sep 2018

There's a big push to implement it by authoritarian regimes in the third world - but even there there's been a retreat as soon as cybersecurity experts are allowed to show their country's congress how easy it is to hack, identify individual voters' vote, and of course flip.

Great find. Thank you for posting!

iluvtennis

(19,850 posts)
5. I work in high tech and love all electronic/internet technology, BUT until we find a way to
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:19 PM
Sep 2018

safeguard electronic voting machines and all of the electronic infrastructure for counting the votes, I want #PaperBallotsNow.

Mr.Bill

(24,282 posts)
6. If we don't win big in 2018,
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:34 PM
Sep 2018

there will be no 2020 elections. In fact, I'm not even sure there will be 2018 elections.

shadowmayor

(1,325 posts)
9. Ever since the 2000 election
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:43 PM
Sep 2018

I've been waiting for the DNC to make this a national issue - making sure that every vote counts. This is a winning issue and I'm stunned it hasn't been addressed yet?

CaptainTruth

(6,588 posts)
10. I want a barcode (or QR code) on every ballot.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:48 PM
Sep 2018

After the election I should be able to scan that barcode & verify the votes associated with it in the official government database that provides the official vote totals.

No personal info would be stored in that database, just barcodes & votes associated with them. Every voter would then be able to verify that their votes were recorded & reported as they cast them.

Yes security would need to be high & data would need to be encrypted. We can do these things.

I call the system Verified Voting, started working on the concept a few years ago.

erronis

(15,241 posts)
13. Sounds good to me as long as those codes can be protected against tampering.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:11 PM
Sep 2018

We all know that even the magnetic stripes on the back of credit cards are now able to be changed.

Still, the level-of-effort to modify each voter's card/code would be huge. That's why internet malware is so bad - it's so easy to pick up lots of targets for almost no cost.

phylny

(8,379 posts)
14. I like your idea.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:15 PM
Sep 2018

In Virginia we have paper ballots that are scanned and tabulated by computer. The paper ballots are kept. It’s not perfect, but better than what we had. There are random, required audits of various counties or areas. I wonder if this is one of the reasons why we are now a blue state.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
26. that is a lot of trouble and expense to keep citizens from overseeing
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:27 PM
Sep 2018

the counting of votes

we the people shouldn't have to trust anything but our own eyes

OMGWTF

(3,951 posts)
12. In at least WA and OR everyone votes absentee.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:10 PM
Sep 2018

There's a paper trail, you can vote at your kitchen table, and this year, WA is even paying for the postage if you want to mail it in. I was a Democratic election observer for a couple of years at the Pierce County, WA Board of Elections and I have a high confidence that they work hard to ensure each vote is accurately counted.

Send a paper ballot to every person eligible to vote and watch our country change for the better.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
16. A start, but that won't protect servers with voter registration data that are connected
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:45 PM
Sep 2018

to the internet.

If they can delete voter registrations, they can prevent voters from voting, which is more effective than changing votes.

That is what worries me.

questionseverything

(9,651 posts)
29. you are correct that every part of the system must be guarded
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:54 PM
Sep 2018
http://bradblog.com/?p=12386

as one of three states, along with Michigan and Pennsylvania, where Green Party candidate Jill Stein had filed for "recounts" and forensic audits of voting systems, after the Clinton Campaign declined to heed the pleas for such an audit by computer scientists and voting systems experts who begged her campaign to do so. Stein's post-election effort was largely stymied by Team Trump and various statutes in each of those states. A statewide tally was allowed to move forward in Wisconsin, however only about half of the state's ballots were hand-counted, as municipalities were allowed to carry out their choice of either manual- or machine-tallied "recounts".

After finding an alarming number of uncounted ballots in Racine County precincts during last year's machine "recount" (see documentary filmmaker Lulu Friesdat's alarming coverage of election officials refusing to hand-tally clearly valid votes there during Stein's attempted "recount&quot the volunteers at WIE filed, and paid for, a public records request to examine the hand-marked paper ballots in a number of those wards.

Recently, they were allowed to review those ballots and, as they feared, many perfectly valid votes had gone uncounted by the optical-scan systems both during the original Election Night tally and the so-called "recount" in counties that used the same faulty computer scanners for the second count, after they had similarly mistallied ballots on Election Night.

I'm joined on today's show by longtime election integrity advocate and WIE's statewide coordinator KAREN McKIM to discuss the group's findings, revealing that the ballot scanning computers used in some 57 municipalities across the state had failed to tally anywhere from 2% to 6% of the ballots with valid Presidential votes in each of the Racine precincts they were allowed to examine a week or so ago. In other WI cities which chose to count by hand during Stein's "recount", McKim tells me, those same scanners had originally missed anywhere from 9% to 30% of valid Presidential votes! All of that in a state which Donald Trump is said to have won last year by less than 1%.

"They were ignored by the voting system entirely," says McKim, "and that's what made the miscount - or should have made the miscount obvious to the election officials even before they certified. You could look at those election results that the voting machines spit out on their face and you could see that hundreds of votes were just missing. If you compared the total number of ballots cast to the total number of presidential votes counted, you should have known --- they should have known --- that two percent of the voters didn't go to the polls so that they could cast a blank ballot. The miscounts were obvious at the time of the canvas, and the county officials did nothing about it."

Nearly a year after the election, in late September of this year, the state Election Commission finally decertified the 20-year old Optech Eagle computer tabulators, after finding that the systems fail to tally votes at all if the "wrong" type of ink is used to make selections by the voter. The same systems are still used, according to Verified Voting, in other states, such as Indiana, Massachusetts and Virginia, and may be used again in Wisconsin next year, as the state decertification allows municipalities to wait until after the November 2018 mid-term elections to replace them.

McKim, however, tells me that those faulty machines don't necessarily explain "the really widely varying error rates from precinct to precinct. ... Why the city of Racine machines were missing more votes than the suburban machines? I don't know. You'd really have to do a forensic investigation to figure that out." But, of course, Stein was not allowed such an investigation in any of the states where she sought them.

http://www.wisconsinelectionintegrity.org/racinecountymiscounts

5 out 0f 6 precincts showed hc un counted totals nearly twice trumps uncounted

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
22. "Science" is just another name for "dark magic" for Rs
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 05:02 PM
Sep 2018

Science is the Devil's work! That's why we pulled out of the Paris Accord, because climate change is a hoax perpetrated by magicians...I mean "scientists".

It is truly astounding how we have turned our country over to the lowbrows. It's the inversion of Plato's Republic.

True Blue American

(17,984 posts)
23. Sent my request for an Absentee today.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 05:16 PM
Sep 2018

Get this, jon Husted filed law suits,even on election day trying to stop people from voting. The only year he sent out absentee requests to everyone was the year he lost a law suit.

This year he is running with DeWine, he is sending them out.

Yes sir ree, Jon,I am voting, for sure, against you!

Raven123

(4,828 posts)
27. I agree 100%. Let's face it. Information technology cannot be secured and is not reliable?
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:28 PM
Sep 2018

Too easy to hack withou being discovered

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
28. It Can Be The Foolproof System
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:35 PM
Sep 2018

Why there hasn’t been more of a push by democrats for this astonishes me. Or a push to dump the out of date Electoral College.

The move to paper ballots makes so much sense.

Stuart G

(38,419 posts)
30. On August 11, a Democratic Underground Scientist urged a similar idea..
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 08:11 PM
Sep 2018

Hit this link to see that August 11, post.......(what a brilliant fellow - my opinion only Yes, below is a real link from August 11, 2018, oh?..you don't believe.??ok..don't look)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210990251

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