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kpete

(71,964 posts)
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 08:33 AM Sep 2018

Billie Jean King: "Thank you Serena Williams for calling out double standard-More voices needed..."


@BillieJeanKing

(2/2) When a woman is emotional, she’s “hysterical” and she’s penalized for it. When a man does the same, he’s “outspoken” & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, @serenawilliams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same.

7:21 PM - 8 Sep 2018





https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/billie-jean-king-says-serena-williams-penalized-at-us-open-due-double-standard-1141355
188 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Billie Jean King: "Thank you Serena Williams for calling out double standard-More voices needed..." (Original Post) kpete Sep 2018 OP
I'd feel better about all of this janterry Sep 2018 #1
That's not all the coach said. He said that every coach of every player does this all the time... brush Sep 2018 #102
Perfectly true but I don't support male tennis players smashing racquets or malaise Sep 2018 #2
Did you notice no one complained or said the Japanese coaches were coaching...this is a deflection. Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #5
I have never seen you or others complain about males smashing racquets or malaise Sep 2018 #10
++ nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #23
What would happen in football if you called the referee a thief? Red card or yellow? Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #27
You are missing the point about double standards n/ t malaise Sep 2018 #31
Malaise, I get your point...and agree with it. But defending bad behaviour because of other Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #33
Where did you see me defend bad behavior? N/t malaise Sep 2018 #36
Not you! on the thread...generally speaking...sorry for the misunderstanding on that! Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #41
Cool malaise Sep 2018 #43
You just blew your argument MiniMe Sep 2018 #55
Cornet didn't go ballistic when warned about the shirt. JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2018 #44
Who has their "coach on court?" No one. You're making up shit. stopbush Sep 2018 #62
OK then malaise Sep 2018 #82
Pointless. No one is allowed to have their coach on court during a Slam event. stopbush Sep 2018 #86
I did not say slam malaise Sep 2018 #87
Your post was specific to yesterday's match, which was a Slam. stopbush Sep 2018 #88
What Japanese coaches? malaise Sep 2018 #21
I think this op-ed in WaPo covered it well. Ilsa Sep 2018 #24
"...one of Williams' last bids for all-time greatness. ? pangaia Sep 2018 #51
That got a "WTH?" from me, too. No reason to look for an ice floe! Ilsa Sep 2018 #78
nah, wrong nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #25
what japanese coaches? nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #26
Naomi had a coach there I am assuming...was her coach coaching...during this match? Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #29
Have to agree justie18 Sep 2018 #46
I was disappointed in her too at first MuseRider Sep 2018 #77
Spot on! InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #179
Males have given a lot more abuse, smashed more racquets, used fouler language, ... JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2018 #3
Because she was losing Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #93
BS. She specifically called out to the crowd to stop the bowing and complimented Naomi for her play. brush Sep 2018 #103
A crowd that she riled up with her hostility and theatrics Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #119
You really don't know what happened do you? Pam Shriver and Chris Everett both... brush Sep 2018 #125
It's Chris Evert not Chris Elliot and she's a very nice person. Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #131
Why such dislike for an American player by some Americans? brush Sep 2018 #132
Lol Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #133
Yeah, really. And it's pretty obvious. brush Sep 2018 #136
Uh huh Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #138
You need to read this. brush Sep 2018 #143
really heaven05 Sep 2018 #153
For actually understanding tennis, it's history and the rules of the game? That's racist, lol? Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #171
I do not care whether you heaven05 Sep 2018 #174
Whaa?? LOL Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #177
It is in 99.9% heaven05 Sep 2018 #152
She most certainly did not. Demit Sep 2018 #109
But Singles tennis is not a group sport Tursiops Sep 2018 #166
It's only a tournament rule, not a rule of tennis. JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2018 #168
thank you, Billy Jean heaven05 Sep 2018 #4
Serena Doesn't Need To Cheat To Win Me. Sep 2018 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author Loki Liesmith Sep 2018 #19
Yes, yes, and yes. Reader Rabbit Sep 2018 #108
hmmmm heaven05 Sep 2018 #117
As A Woman RobinA Sep 2018 #178
reject all you please heaven05 Sep 2018 #180
John McEnroe was called hysterical and was penalized for his similar behavior oberliner Sep 2018 #6
I immediately thought of McEnroe, who complained a lot and was largely considered to be an asshole. PoliticAverse Sep 2018 #34
No one is calling Serena hysterical...but McEnroe parlayed his hysterics into fame and fortune, even Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #42
Yeah, but he's still an asshole. n/t PoliticAverse Sep 2018 #48
Some of McEnroe's fines whistler162 Sep 2018 #54
Thank you for pointing out the facts. John Fante Sep 2018 #79
overblown faux outrage heaven05 Sep 2018 #182
Ms Osaka as a POC heaven05 Sep 2018 #183
Translation: anyone who criticizes Serena is racist. John Fante Sep 2018 #184
you said it heaven05 Sep 2018 #186
37 years ago? Are you serious? ecstatic Sep 2018 #123
Of course they do... tenderfoot Sep 2018 #141
I didn't see a single person referring to Serena as hysterical LisaM Sep 2018 #7
Agreed. Her behavior was totally unprofessional. Trust Buster Sep 2018 #8
Yes it was. She is the one who should apologize. milestogo Sep 2018 #12
no need to apologize nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #22
Apologize for what? Double standards? InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #65
Any evidence that women players are penalized more John Fante Sep 2018 #81
Apologize for unsportsmanlike behavior. milestogo Sep 2018 #97
You have it SO completely backwards... I see Serena as a hero for standing up against that bullshit. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #127
I see someone who thinks she is bigger than the game. milestogo Sep 2018 #134
It never ceases to amaze me the capacity people have for twisting things Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #139
Yeah, it never ceases to amaze me either. milestogo Sep 2018 #142
Never ceases to amaze me how some people so easily dismiss blatant sexism. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #145
But it's not blatant. It's not a given here. Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #148
You have the right to your opinion. LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #157
That pos cartoon has racism written all over it. rockfordfile Sep 2018 #159
nah, wrong nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #20
+1000 Pachamama Sep 2018 #11
nah, wrong nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #18
Care to explain why he/she is wrong? John Fante Sep 2018 #83
not to you or anyone heaven05 Sep 2018 #91
Exactly! justie18 Sep 2018 #50
She owes the judge an apology janterry Sep 2018 #70
The one percent versus the ref who made 450 dollars Tursiops Sep 2018 #161
Of course there is a double standard MuseRider Sep 2018 #9
Methinks I lend credence to Serena and Billie Jean griloco Sep 2018 #14
Those saying it wasn't a woman thing, DON'T follow tennis. LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #104
I've been following tennis since 1975 Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #120
Or she's a witch zentrum Sep 2018 #15
It doesn't make it right Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #122
I agree. zentrum Sep 2018 #151
It does apply to men Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #170
i feel so bad for Osaka. Kurt V. Sep 2018 #16
I don't and NEVER WILL heaven05 Sep 2018 #17
i can't help feeling for her. it should have been a great moment not a sad one, Kurt V. Sep 2018 #28
I doubt that poster cares RhodeIslandOne Sep 2018 #32
It was already a blowout before the 2nd set started...Osaka had her number...coach intervened... Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #37
Not necessarily. Someone always wins the 1st set. Doesn't mean the match is over. brush Sep 2018 #156
Nah- Naomi played great tennis all tournament malaise Sep 2018 #30
I still won't heaven05 Sep 2018 #35
OK malaise Sep 2018 #39
No logic needed at times. She DID NOTHING WRONG. But punish her if it makes you feel better. nt USALiberal Sep 2018 #47
logic, in cases like this, is for heaven05 Sep 2018 #56
1%? ok. nt USALiberal Sep 2018 #58
Let me clarify heaven05 Sep 2018 #59
Making up your own truth is fun! nt USALiberal Sep 2018 #61
actually heaven05 Sep 2018 #63
You realize Osaka is a minority also? Miss that part? nt USALiberal Sep 2018 #64
Nope Inescapable heaven05 Sep 2018 #69
They admit they didn't even watch the match RhodeIslandOne Sep 2018 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author John Fante Sep 2018 #85
Unless she was in on the ump being on her side she is innocent in this nini Sep 2018 #75
ok nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #89
Naomi was whipping Serena comfortably. John Fante Sep 2018 #84
ok nt heaven05 Sep 2018 #90
Naomi was whipping Serena comfortably. LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #106
How is this related to yesterday's match in any way? John Fante Sep 2018 #114
For holding Serena accountable for her deplorable actions? Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #94
nothing deplorable about Serena heaven05 Sep 2018 #95
She's verbally abused linesman and refs repeatedly over the years and that's verifiable. Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #98
you can hate heaven05 Sep 2018 #116
Hate? Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #118
yes hate heaven05 Sep 2018 #154
Aw, poor baby Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #172
no heaven05 Sep 2018 #173
Uh huh Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #176
you are heaven05 Sep 2018 #181
Wow, compelling argument Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #188
He's a dick nini Sep 2018 #105
Is it OK to abuse referees just because she is a woman? Renew Deal Sep 2018 #38
Also not okay to impose double standards. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #66
What is your evidence of double standards? Renew Deal Sep 2018 #68
While I agree with BJK, Serena was wrong underpants Sep 2018 #40
Pure nonsense Hav Sep 2018 #45
Serena was classless and went off her nut because she was going to lose. Botany Sep 2018 #49
On another note BeyondGeography Sep 2018 #52
The Lady doth Protest too much. jalan48 Sep 2018 #53
Within the past year, Kyrgios has twice been penalised a point for name calling muriel_volestrangler Sep 2018 #57
Serena was inappropriate, but her premise was 100% correct. jayddrew Sep 2018 #60
He invoked a rule that her team was breaking. janterry Sep 2018 #72
She's a black and a woman. She should just have shut up and taken it. LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #107
I support Serena. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #67
Then you support her engaging in verbal abuse and bullying Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #92
Nope, I support her lashing out against the WTA's blatant sexism... and, frankly, racism too InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #121
No, it's not "plainly evident to everyone". Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #126
Well, it should be. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #128
No, it shouldn't be Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #135
The only mess is that which has been created by the WTA that leads to crap like this... InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #144
Okay fangirl Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #149
So do I. She's had to put up with so much crap over the years. Demit Sep 2018 #112
It's gotten fuckin' ridiculous!!! Good for Serena standing up against the bullshit InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #124
Serena Was WRONG, Period WiffenPoof Sep 2018 #71
That point when she 'flipped' the switch janterry Sep 2018 #73
Lleyton Hewitt made a racist DAMN fool of himself at the 2001 US Open... LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #110
Thank you for pointing out the blatant double standards Serena is fighting against. InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #129
Thank you for pointing out the blatant double standards Serena is fighting against. LenaBaby61 Sep 2018 #150
Thanks for that response... AWESOME post! InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #155
Unless she knew this umpire moondust Sep 2018 #74
Post removed Post removed Sep 2018 #76
Everyone should listen to this from Serena Williams. Gothmog Sep 2018 #96
She is doubling down and portrying herself as the victim. redgreenandblue Sep 2018 #100
Meh. Serena is just another in a long line of athletes who made asses of themselves. redgreenandblue Sep 2018 #99
Never has a male tennis player had a game taken from him b/c he called the chair ump a name. Demit Sep 2018 #113
Serena lost a game because it was her third infraction. John Fante Sep 2018 #115
The warning for her, against her coach coaching, was a crap call. Demit Sep 2018 #147
Not really. Illegal coaching is rife, yes. But other players are called on it Tursiops Sep 2018 #160
Ace!! InAbLuEsTaTe Sep 2018 #130
Really... are you sure about that? whistler162 Sep 2018 #164
Yes Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #137
Some one once said whistler162 Sep 2018 #101
It blows me away that so many people refuse to believe a woman knows sexism when she sees it. Reader Rabbit Sep 2018 #111
I am with you! disenfranchised Sep 2018 #140
Thanks. Reader Rabbit Sep 2018 #187
The Whole Thing Was Troubling colsohlibgal Sep 2018 #146
This should have never been couched in gender politics Tursiops Sep 2018 #158
Belinda Cordwall (now that I have your attention) brettdale Sep 2018 #162
Hmm. Sorry, going to go with Billy Jean King on this one. kcr Sep 2018 #165
Serena has a htory of going after umpires males or females brettdale Sep 2018 #167
I'm with Serena Williams. It seems though from the start of the tournament Serena was a target. rockfordfile Sep 2018 #163
Martina Navratilova: Serena Lost the Plot brettdale Sep 2018 #169
Well said Martina Sugarcoated Sep 2018 #175
Thank you BJK Wawannabe Sep 2018 #185
 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
1. I'd feel better about all of this
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 08:44 AM
Sep 2018

if the coach hadn't said that he coached every point. Since he does that regularly, it's pretty clear that Serena knows that. And, even if she didn't -
what will she say about that?

It seems to me that this is the most honest place to start.

brush

(53,743 posts)
102. That's not all the coach said. He said that every coach of every player does this all the time...
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:26 PM
Sep 2018

and they should stop the hypocrisy of selective punishment.

He also said that he was so far away that Serena could've even see him. Pam Shriver and Chris Elliot both back that up.

On ESPN this morning they showed four incidents at the US Open where Serena has been unfairly treated, one where the Tennis governing body apologized to Serena as the video clearly showed balls from her opponent to be clearly out but she lost the point and eventually the match.

Something is up when this happens to an American player over and over and over at the US Open. You'd think an American would get more favorable treatment at America's premier tennis event. But she black and a woman so...

malaise

(268,715 posts)
2. Perfectly true but I don't support male tennis players smashing racquets or
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 08:45 AM
Sep 2018

abusing umps.
The gender bias is real.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
5. Did you notice no one complained or said the Japanese coaches were coaching...this is a deflection.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:13 AM
Sep 2018

Serena was warned, according to the rules, then the rest was just her inability to control her temper.

Meanwhile her opponent, cool as a cucumber. I admire her more than I feel sorry for Serena.

And for someone to say it is OK to smash racquets is on a slippery slope indeed...how about throwing into the audience, towards a linesman, smashing the net, etc, etc.

The rules are for a reason. Fair warning given...and the coaching was apparently every point...every point!

malaise

(268,715 posts)
10. I have never seen you or others complain about males smashing racquets or
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:39 AM
Sep 2018

abusing umps. The umpire created this mess. I also don't know how you saw her coach coaching every point, particularly when she is one of the few players who does not have her coach on court. I saw her look at the box one time during the lead up.
The truth is all coaches do it and it's ridiculous to punish players for things coaches do.

Where we agree is that she should not have smashed the racquet or called him a thief although male players do it all the time.
I do notice that the Serena haters are out in numbers.
Does she have a temper and passion for her sport - yep that's why she's the best player of all time with nine more grand slam trophies than every American player, male or female.

On the other hand, I'm old school when it comes to smashing things and abusing officials. I would make my comments after the match. I've never had that sort of passion or desire for winning anything.

Earlier in the tournament Alize Cornet was sanctioned for exposing her sports bra when. She returned from a shower break and realized her jersey was back to front. Male players take off their jerseys with impunity. Further after scoring a World Cup goal, Brandi Chastain took off her jersey to celebrate her goal way back in 1999.
There are different standards for men and women and those condemning the double standards are correct.


Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
27. What would happen in football if you called the referee a thief? Red card or yellow?
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:23 AM
Sep 2018

Or smashed the ball into a pancake? Same thing!

Maybe the males will take notice now and not ham it up for the crowd and their social media exposure and sponsors so much.

Fair Play! FIFA motto.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
33. Malaise, I get your point...and agree with it. But defending bad behaviour because of other
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:35 AM
Sep 2018

bad behaviour is not my cuppa!

So there should be one standard...follow the rules, and have the referees consistently enforce them.

But was using the tennis court of the final of the US Open the best place to open the debate?

MiniMe

(21,709 posts)
55. You just blew your argument
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:22 AM
Sep 2018

"The referees consistently enforce them". Actually, they don't. Even the commentators were saying that coaching happens in every match, and is rarely called. Oksana's coach was coaching her too, the ref didn't mention that or penalize her for it. And going back to McEnroe, Conners, and many other men who have yelled at refs and called them names, they almost never got penalized for it.

Oksana played a great match, and I have a lot of respect for her for her play, and for her ability to focus on the match rather than all the confusion and booing. Nothing should take anything away from Oksana's play.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,325 posts)
44. Cornet didn't go ballistic when warned about the shirt.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:48 AM
Sep 2018

She just went back to playing tennis. She can be a head case at times, but not in this instance.

Brandi Chastain didn't take off her jersey because of just "a goal". I think it was the penalty goal that won the World Cup. So, in effect, the match was over. Also, soccer is a much more demonstrative game than tennis, with huge goal celebrations and operatic death scenes when fouled. And, it has vuvuzelas.

stopbush

(24,393 posts)
86. Pointless. No one is allowed to have their coach on court during a Slam event.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:46 PM
Sep 2018

Your post about having a coach on court was SPECIFIC to yesterday’s match. Read what you wrote in context of what you wrote:

“. I also don't know how you saw her coach coaching every point, particularly when she is one of the few players who does not have her coach on court. I saw her look at the box one time during the lead up.”

stopbush

(24,393 posts)
88. Your post was specific to yesterday's match, which was a Slam.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:49 PM
Sep 2018

“. I also don't know how you saw her coach coaching every point, particularly when she is one of the few players who does not have her coach on court. I saw her look at the box one time during the lead up. ”

Ilsa

(61,690 posts)
24. I think this op-ed in WaPo covered it well.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:20 AM
Sep 2018

Ramos was definitely the problem.

At U.S. Open, power of Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka is overshadowed by an umpire’s power play
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/tennis/at-us-open-power-of-serena-williams-and-naomi-osaka-is-overshadowed-by-an-umpires-power-play/2018/09/08/edbf46c8-b3b4-11e8-a20b-5f4f84429666_story.html

Snip

Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.

Williams abused her racket, but Ramos did something far uglier: He abused his authority. Champions get heated — it’s their nature to burn. All good umpires in every sport understand that the heart of their job is to help temper the moment, to turn the dial down, not up, and to be quiet stewards of the event rather than to let their own temper play a role in determining the outcome. Instead, Ramos made himself the chief player in the women’s final. He marred Osaka’s first Grand Slam title and one of Williams’ last bids for all-time greatness. Over what? A tone of voice. Male players have sworn and cursed at the top of their lungs, hurled and blasted their equipment into shards, and never been penalized as Williams was in the second set of the U.S. Open final.

Snip

Ilsa

(61,690 posts)
78. That got a "WTH?" from me, too. No reason to look for an ice floe!
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:57 PM
Sep 2018

Serena needs a little more time to recover from the whole business of having a baby. She'll be fine.

justie18

(169 posts)
46. Have to agree
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:56 AM
Sep 2018

Agree completely! Especially since Serena clearly changed her strategy to follow coaches instructions! Also, after reading about her meltdown in 2011 when she was loosing to Sam Stosur, it just really looks bad for her sportsmanship. In Stosur's case, she was penalized for verbal hindrance during play, then had the meltdown. I thought she tried the same crap against Osaka in the first set, but Osaka was not rattled.

Perhaps the rules need to be changed but in the meantime, the umpire should not be blamed.

I am frankly disappointed in Billie Jean, not to mention Serena.

MuseRider

(34,095 posts)
77. I was disappointed in her too at first
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:52 PM
Sep 2018

but then I noticed that she never said Serena was right acting this way or that the judge was wrong with the penalties. She only called out the unfairness of how women are judged, and we are. There is certainly a problem there but Serena did what she did and earned the penalties. It is a shame, it all could have ended after the first penalty. She knows what happens when you push it, even to the men although not nearly as often. THAT is where the unfairness is and I think that is what Billie Jean was saying.

Serena was displaying behavior that is not all that unusual for her. I had hoped she would stop. I understand why that has to be the hardest thing in the world to do but it is required. She has not learned that yet and she has certainly weathered these things without losing her fans so perhaps she never will.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,325 posts)
3. Males have given a lot more abuse, smashed more racquets, used fouler language, ...
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:07 AM
Sep 2018

... but they generally STFU after the second warning and loss of a point. Nobody wants to take it to the loss of a game, or a match.

Most women also manage to STFU after two warnings. Serena couldn't stop this time, who knows why.

I agree with her coach. Coaching, signalling, etc, should be allowed and ignored by the umpires. Comm gear is so good that players could wear earpieces to hear their coach. Maybe some do.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
93. Because she was losing
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 02:20 PM
Sep 2018

and she did what she frequently has done over the years...take a big dump on the winner's day to try to spoil it.

brush

(53,743 posts)
103. BS. She specifically called out to the crowd to stop the bowing and complimented Naomi for her play.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:34 PM
Sep 2018

brush

(53,743 posts)
125. You really don't know what happened do you? Pam Shriver and Chris Everett both...
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:42 PM
Sep 2018

criticized the chair umpire for over reacting and over penalizing Serena for what male players suffer no consequences for.

The sexism exhibited went completely over your head.

And what a concept, who would've thought American fans at the American US Open would show disfavor at questionable judgements against an American player, who then admonished the crowd to stop booing the new champion.

Wow! Unheard of.

Why such dislike for an American player by so many Americans? Is it because of her race?

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
131. It's Chris Evert not Chris Elliot and she's a very nice person.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:54 PM
Sep 2018

If you knew what you were talking about you'd know what her name is. Past champions bend over backwards to give Serena the benefit of the doubt. They are really too kind because they're friends with her. I saw the looks on the faces of Mary Carillo and Lindsay Davenport after the match. They had no good things to say about Serena the fool she made of herself.

ETA: You changed spelling but still spelled it wrong. It's Evert not Evertt.
ETA: There. You got it right this time.

I know you're a fan of Serena, I get that, but I've seen her in action for years and years. She's a jerk. Always has been, and apparently, always will be.

brush

(53,743 posts)
132. Why such dislike for an American player by some Americans?
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:58 PM
Sep 2018

Is it because she's black?

And no mention of the sexism Serena was protesting, and what Shriver and Evert and Billie Jean King concurred with.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
133. Lol
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:00 PM
Sep 2018

Really?

ETA: In response to your edit, I did "mention" Chrissie and Billie Jean and their responses a post above.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
171. For actually understanding tennis, it's history and the rules of the game? That's racist, lol?
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:41 PM
Sep 2018

When the accusation is so carelessly thrown at people it's one of the reasons why many people don't take actual racism seriously.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
174. I do not care whether you
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 09:23 PM
Sep 2018

take racism seriously. Does not change one thing. So you run along now and play. I am right, you are wrong. Period. Nothing you say or imply will change that. I understand, tennis, the rules and how dipshit racist some umps are and stupidly open about it some can be. The ump was an asshole. And those who back him....well..... you're entitled. Your opinion about Serena Williams means NOTHING to me. So you know where that leaves you, I hope, and that you will stop stalking me and trying to harass me. bye

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
177. Whaa?? LOL
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 10:22 PM
Sep 2018

Stalking? We're posting on a message board and we happen to disagree...you were "stalking" me and my posts as well sillyass.
Take care

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
152. It is in 99.9%
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:42 AM
Sep 2018

of cases of criticism toward Serena. No doubts. The ump hated her because of her race regardless that Naomi is mixed race and Serena is not. No doubts. Appearance is everything in this media-driven age. Youth was also a factor that included in appearance. Size. ect. All the booing was/is from the hypocritical gentile of the world who would rather see a Chris Everett out on the court. This criticism is all BS to distract from the real agenda of MANY in the amerika I know to be the reality. Racism is not suspended when sports come into play. Many here voiced criticism over the kneeling in protest of white cops killing mostly, unarmed and innocent AA men. women and CHILDREN as young as 11 years old.

Tursiops

(89 posts)
166. But Singles tennis is not a group sport
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:57 PM
Sep 2018

A lot of players and coaches would like to change that but until the rule changes it's illegal. Federer does allright without it. Why can't the others?

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,325 posts)
168. It's only a tournament rule, not a rule of tennis.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:25 PM
Sep 2018

Some tournaments allow coaches to visit with the player on the court whenever the opposing player takes a bathroom break or gets medical attention.

Boxing is also an individual sport, but allows coaching between rounds, and even during the round.

Maybe they should confine the coaches and other staff behind one-way glass, so they can watch but not be seen or heard. But even then, someone will find a way, with modern communication gear.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
4. thank you, Billy Jean
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:12 AM
Sep 2018
Such obvious sexism. And throw in a skin colour that is threatening to many, many white people and there you have it. Serena Williams has done nothing more than show the strength of African-american women particularly and women in general.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
13. Serena Doesn't Need To Cheat To Win
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:48 AM
Sep 2018

and I wonder if this ump has ever taken against a male player the way he did Serena

Response to Me. (Reply #13)

Reader Rabbit

(2,624 posts)
108. Yes, yes, and yes.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:14 PM
Sep 2018

Every female athlete has had to put up with this misogynistic crap from male officials. Behavior that doesn't even make them blink their eyes when done by male athletes somehow merits STRICT ADHERENCE TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW if the person committing the "infraction" has ovaries instead of testicles. If she has the nerve to speak up for herself and point out the double standard, she's vilified as a poor loser, out of control, entitled—basically every kind of derogatory remark available to justify the sexism.

The timing of this kinda makes me wonder whether or not Serena's support for Nike's new Kaep-campaign had anything to do with the umpire's fault-finding.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
180. reject all you please
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 11:57 PM
Sep 2018

part of being right is knowing what's right and in the case of Serena Williams, a lot of so-called liberals are pretty "boorish" themselves. So Serena was cheated by an idiot calling himself an ump, the WTA and many others who have more knowledge of what is boorish or not have lined up and have Serena's back. Your opinion of her counts for zero. Period. bye

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
6. John McEnroe was called hysterical and was penalized for his similar behavior
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:17 AM
Sep 2018

See this article from 1981, for instance:

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/24/sports/mcenroe-is-fined-1500-and-warned-of-being-suspended.html

Excerpt:

McEnroe's outbursts drew front-page headlines in British newspapers ranging from ''The Shame of John McEnroe'' to ''Disgrace of Super Brat.'' One tabloid consulted a clinical psychologist at a local hospital, who cited McEnroe as a classic example of a ''hysterical extrovert.''

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
42. No one is calling Serena hysterical...but McEnroe parlayed his hysterics into fame and fortune, even
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:43 AM
Sep 2018

now.

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
79. Thank you for pointing out the facts.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:31 PM
Sep 2018

I'm all for calling out sexism and racism when they occur, but this isn't one of those instances. Serena was getting worked and lost her cool. The consequence is that Naomi Osaka (also a woman of color) and her moment of triumph have been completely overshadowed by this overblown controversy.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
182. overblown faux outrage
Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:09 AM
Sep 2018

is all I've read here and it's pretty obvious what's behind it. Pretty obvious.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
183. Ms Osaka as a POC
Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:14 AM
Sep 2018

does not need your help. She did a good job, yet Serena was still the recipient of stupid and obvious bias on the part of the idiot ump and she was right to get angry. All this faux outrage and the really transparent reality of white outrage that has always been against a woman who has a lot of strength to put up with the BS created by racist people who hate her being on the tennis court. I laugh at all this. She still outshines all who want to put her down. Always will.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
186. you said it
Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:08 AM
Sep 2018

I didn't because I wouldn't say such a thing in public. Too much sniffling and whining. Can't stand it.

LisaM

(27,794 posts)
7. I didn't see a single person referring to Serena as hysterical
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:26 AM
Sep 2018

yesterday. I just saw nothing to excuse in Serena's behavior.

I think there's plenty of sexism in sports, but I don't see how what happened yesterday had anything to do with sexism.

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
81. Any evidence that women players are penalized more
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:38 PM
Sep 2018

often than men? The evidence suggests the opposite is true.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
97. Apologize for unsportsmanlike behavior.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 03:11 PM
Sep 2018

Destroying her racket? Threatening the umpires job? Asking for a break because she is a mother?

What a poor role model she is.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
127. You have it SO completely backwards... I see Serena as a hero for standing up against that bullshit.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:43 PM
Sep 2018

Discrimination, in all of it's ugly forms, is wrong and should never be countenanced.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
134. I see someone who thinks she is bigger than the game.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:01 PM
Sep 2018

Bigger than her opponents, bigger than the rules, bigger than the officials, bigger than the fans, bigger than tennis.

She's no victim.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
139. It never ceases to amaze me the capacity people have for twisting things
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:08 PM
Sep 2018

To not see what's right in front of them. Reminds of me of some people....

LenaBaby61

(6,973 posts)
157. You have the right to your opinion.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 04:56 PM
Sep 2018

But unless you actually FOLLOW tennis on the regular, then your opinion is one that is NOT taking all things into consideration, because you have no idea what Serena has had to face during her tennis career. Being black and a woman is difficult in a sport that at one time didn't want "your kind" playing in it. This official would never do a male tennis player like Rafa, Nole or Federer like he did Serena--during a championship finals match. He took a game away from her which "officially" cost her the match (She probably would have lost, because Osaka was playing extremely well and deserved to win her 1st US Open singles slam. And to Serena's credit, she's come a long way back, #16, after a difficult and life-threatening post-pregnancy). Now, If Ramos had called her over and warned her and she kept going, then that's on Serena Williams for complaining after a warning, and he'd have had the right to remove the game. But there was NO warning. He just took a game away from her after slandering her for cheating earlier in the match. Serena Williams has had a match stolen from her, and it happened at the same US Open in 2004. Ramos at the very least guilty of being a snowflake/thin-skinned IMHO. He abused his power also. By the way, he issued a code violation to Venus Williams because he said that she was cheating by allegedly receiving coaching help from her coach during a 2016 FO match. Venus told him during the changeover, I'm 36 years old, and I don't have to cheat.

At the 2001 US Open, and on prime-time TV, male tennis player Lleyton Hewitt accused a black male lines man of CHEATING for the black male opponent he was playing (James Blake) when he called 2 foot faults on him. Everyone heard him and knew what he meant. Yet, he wasn't defaulted and not even FINED. The match was reviewed, and he still wasn't fined or anything. I wonder WHY Hewitt wasn't punished for his racist tirade on prime-time tv? You can't tell me that him being white and a male didn't have something to do with it, and from all I have ever read, Hewitt never apologized to the linesman he racially slandered (If he did, then my bad, I'm wrong, but I don't think he ever has). In 2002, he said something to the affect of, lets just let bygones be bygones, and that he's spoken to Blake and we're fine You talk about Serena wanting to be bigger than the game, but Hewitt never being punished for his overt racism made HIM bigger than the game. He got away with it & he won the tournament. By the way, Hewitt was a jerk his WHOLE career. So, me being a fan of a following tennis since 1969, I can see where Serena Williams would feel a "certain way" about certain things concerning the US Open, as she was cheated out of a match there in 2004. That prime-time match was called so horribly, that the USTA issued a letter of apology to Serena Williams, but not before "gold-star" umpire (Marianna Alvez) was removed from officiating the rest of the tournament. Serena actually LOST that match to Jennifer Capriati due to bad umpiring/lines calls. You had people like yourself saying that she thought that SHE was bigger than the game, when everyone who actually knew tennis and who saw that match say that she was CHEATED out of that 3-set match. Actually, Serena held her temper quite well after having a match STOLEN from her. But she was still called a cry baby, sore loser, when she rightfully complained in her post match presser about how badly her match was called. Thank goodness shot spot was made a permanent fixture in tennis, but that only after Serena had that match STOLEN from her.

And here we are today.

Look at this cartoon from Australia. This isn't racist? Not sure what race you are but if you aren't black, you have NO idea what black women, especially successful ones go through with sexism & racism on the regular.



I have been a Serena Williams fan for decades. Love her, respect her, and there have been times where I've not even agreed with some of her actions. She definitely isn't perfect, as none of us are. However, I'm hearing how she's a cry baby, sore loser, cheater, makes up things, a whiner and complainer. She's had to endure being called a man, transvestite, monkey, gorilla, silver back, liar--has been accused allowing their father to match-fix matches between them, and you have had those say that she's built like a male/muscular/intimidating and that it gives her an advantage over the "regular" women on the tour

Like I say, you have a right to your own opinion. But, unless you have a more full context of what this woman's gone through on the tour over her 20 plus years playing on it, then to me what you're saying about her thinking that she's "bigger than the game" is simplistic and shallow at best.



Pachamama

(16,884 posts)
11. +1000
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:46 AM
Sep 2018

Neither did I - and I watched this match with many a group of women and we all were disappointed and screamed in disappointment and disgust when she called first the “mom/baby card” and then the “woman card”.

Her coach was coaching and he even admitted it. The rules are the rules. Whether she agreed or had seen it or not or it’s “done all the time” and men get passes wasn’t relevant. She should have accepted the initial penalty and kept playing and being a good sport and playing the game. But abusing a racket? That is also against rules and she knows it. It bad sportsmanship and against the rules. She chose to do it. She then decided to keep going and verbally abuse and accuse and call an umpire a “thief”. Holy shit. She lost it. She was out of control. I was embarrassed and sick seeing this. Exhibit A in bad sportsmanship and then calling out the accusation of sexism. Even if it was sexism, she was wrong. She should have after being called on the coaching penalty kept her cool and shown she is the best tennis player. Instead she started channeling Cardi B and had no self control and even the stats showed what anybody who plays tennis saw, which is Osaka was outplaying Serena. Osaka was calm and cool.

Serena lost it and lost it all and has only herself o blame. Billie Jean King is correct in that there is sexism in tennis as there is in many sports. But in this case, it was Serena who messed up. The Ump Ramos could be the biggest sexist mofo on the planet and it doesn’t matter. He made a call on coaching penalty (that was happening and was his call to make) and right or wrong, Serena had a choice and she made the really wrong choice.

I lost a lot of respect for Serena last night and she lost more than the match and tournament- she lost the ability to be the top role model for young women athletes in the battle against sexism.

That was also a huge loss for us all.

justie18

(169 posts)
50. Exactly!
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:04 AM
Sep 2018

Thank you. This was exactly how I felt watching the match. In fact, after a few minutes of Serena's meltdown, I had to turn off the TV. I did turn it back on for the last game, but what an ugly finish to a grand slam final.

Serena had a similar meltdown during the 2011 final, when she was penalized for 'verbal hindrance during play' - also happened while she was loosing the match against Stosur.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
70. She owes the judge an apology
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:08 PM
Sep 2018

Her coach didn't just say he coached her on that point, but that he coached her 'every' point.

So, she knew. I mean, she could be a complete idiot and not know that he does that 'all the time.' But that just doesn't make sense.

Her whole diatribe against him was built on a falsehood.

MuseRider

(34,095 posts)
9. Of course there is a double standard
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:36 AM
Sep 2018

there always has been and it has been slowly whittled away but is long from gone.

That says nothing about the match yesterday. She was not penalized because she is a woman, the rules were broken and she escalated. This has been applied to men but so rarely it is hard to remember.

The penalization was the correct response to the situation but it is certainly not used equally. It does not change the outcome and should be a warning to all of the players that perhaps the coaches are getting tired of players who cannot let it go. Each penalty was appropriate, a few words even if angry are expected but the judge was not a thief and coming on the heels of 2 other penalties it was a proper response.

Women are not treated fairly that is for certain however getting called on rule breaking is not inherently sexist, it is applied with a heavier hand to women as most things are in the sport but the rules were broken. This was not a new judge either, he is well respected.

Billie Jean King is my forever hero.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
120. I've been following tennis since 1975
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:35 PM
Sep 2018

Serena is a verbally abusive bully who likes to burn the house down when she's losing. It's not a woman thing it's a lack of character thing.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
122. It doesn't make it right
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:37 PM
Sep 2018

It's not okay to take your anger out on everyone around you. If you do there are consequences.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
151. I agree.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:30 AM
Sep 2018

That's not what I'm saying. The point about female anger is a separate matter. She was penalized for behavior that has not penalized men players.

Sometimes anger is the only way to make a point. If the point must never be made by anger, then the same norm should apply to men.


Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
170. It does apply to men
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:30 PM
Sep 2018

If they don't stop after the third warning they lose a game. Those are the rules. She made her point and kept going, smashed her racket, got a second warning. She knew what would happen if she didn't kept badgering him. Ramos is a stickler for following the rules, all the players know that.

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
28. i can't help feeling for her. it should have been a great moment not a sad one,
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:24 AM
Sep 2018

Regardless of who we blame.

 

RhodeIslandOne

(5,042 posts)
32. I doubt that poster cares
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:33 AM
Sep 2018

They are a Serena fan, not a tennis fan. They were already sore that Osaka was daring to hand the Queen her lunch.

brush

(53,743 posts)
156. Not necessarily. Someone always wins the 1st set. Doesn't mean the match is over.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 12:31 PM
Sep 2018

The second set was much more competitive even though the ref took a point and a game from Serena.

Serena is a known slow starter. She has come back many times in matches to force a third set.

I would like to have seen how the match played out without the over reaction of the ref to what her coach was doing, which she couldn't see btw.

And chk out tennis legend Billie Jean Kings remarks on the matter:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/billie-jean-king-op-ed-serena-williams_us_5b9595b1e4b0162f472e68ef

malaise

(268,715 posts)
30. Nah- Naomi played great tennis all tournament
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:30 AM
Sep 2018

I've been talking about her since she won Indian Wells early this year and then she beat Serena in Miami although Serena was not fit.
Watching Naomi is like watching young Serena and their lives are not dissimilar. She and her family faced horrific racism in Japan and it's actually poetic justice that the first Japanese( (male or female) to win a grand slam single title is an Afro-Haitian Japanese.

She played really well yesterday and while it's true that Serena was playing better I the second set, Naomi was not giving an inch and coming back from set down against someone with your game who is almost 17 years younger would have been no easy task.
I was rooting for Serena and #24, but I was always aware that Naomi could beat her again.

Serena is the greatest of all time, but like all great athletes, that time eventually comes to an end.
I hope she equals the record before retiring but she's already the best ever.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
56. logic, in cases like this, is for
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:23 AM
Sep 2018

is for the privileged and entitled who must rationalize said privilege and entitlement to be able to continually turn away from the truth. I see it happen every day in amerika. Doesn't make me feel better. Osaka and her sad look is for what? Did she know she got big breaks? I seriously don't know. But in not seeing the match first hand and relying on snips from the match, Osaka got BIG breaks, while Serena got none. Osaka is a good athlete. That is all she gets from me.

I rely on my gut in Amerika every day. Been wrong 1% of the time. My gut got me through a war, so yeah, I rely on it. heavily.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
59. Let me clarify
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:32 AM
Sep 2018

with living in amerika, I have been wrong about racism and racist situations, 1% of the time. Since I saw my first racist incident/consequence, I have relied on my gut when dealing/assessing situations like this. Have at your non-belief. Does not faze me.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
63. actually
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:47 AM
Sep 2018

being right 99% of the time about racism and this enabling, encouraging society and its minions of the racist culture of amerika makes me weary. It is just waiting to sink, already hit the iceberg, November 9, 2016.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
69. Nope Inescapable
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:06 PM
Sep 2018

and don't let me start on the DEGREES of racism in this country. You have nothing to provide me in the area of trying to educate me. NO, that's the first thing I saw and just accepted my conclusions based on the South African apartheid system of classification of POC that white amerika still uses. Look, I have watched the ebb and flow of white racism in its many guises and rationales for 59 years, NOTHING has really changed except the window dressing. Behind that oh, so fine and beautiful window dressing has always lain a hell hole of hate, ignorance and stupidity perpetrated by a racist group of sub-cultural slugs who are the foot soldiers of the RW racists that have governed and led this society for generations.

Nope, didn't miss a damn thing. I am done with this. You have a good one you heah??? bye

Response to USALiberal (Reply #58)

nini

(16,672 posts)
75. Unless she was in on the ump being on her side she is innocent in this
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:34 PM
Sep 2018

Don't blame her for the ump being an asshole.

The 'win' isn't the issue here.. it's how Serena was treated and the BS that took the focus off the winner. Osaka did outplay Serena.

I love Serena - but Osaka would have won without all the crap that went down.

LenaBaby61

(6,973 posts)
106. Naomi was whipping Serena comfortably.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:50 PM
Sep 2018

Serena was whipping Jennifer Capriati in set 3 until the So-called chair umpire Marianna Alves and her crew did her in during the third set at the 2004 US Open.

How Serena held her nerve and temper was beyond me. I'd have went ballistic. Nope, she was TOLD in many a column I read that she should have been the bigger person because she was a multi-slam champion. Shut up and be quiet, and in some cases, I read where people said that she's won ENOUGH, good that she lost even though cheated. Mighty white of them. And even when the USTA issued an apology to Serena because that match was so poorly umpired, those same folks saying that she's won enough and should shut up, many said something to the effect of she was black and the only reason she was given a written apology And, even though Capriati clearly was shown to have seen several of those balls hit inside the baseline and past her as winners for Serena during that match, she said that she didn't see anything in her post match presser And the LAST shot of the match landed clearly inside of the baseline as a winner for Serena, yet was called out and the match went to Capriati. Racism and Sexism is alive and well in the still mostly white sport of tennis.

Finally, black people in general have to always be the "BIGGER PERSON." Or are told to SHUT UP and take it, or turn the other cheek, and that's especially so for African-American women who tend to stand up for themselves. I know, I've been there as an African-American and Native American woman, and have had to stand up for myself in the field I've worked in.

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
114. How is this related to yesterday's match in any way?
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 07:45 PM
Sep 2018

The blown calls from that 14-year-old match were acknowledged by the WTA and the umpire was sent home. They apologized to Serena.

The three penalties Serena recieved yesterday were not blown. She earned every one. They didn't halt here momentum either because she never had it.

If you're going to scream racism you should at least acknowledge that Naomi Osaka is decidedly non-white.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
95. nothing deplorable about Serena
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 02:27 PM
Sep 2018

now the ref, from all I have seen and read, that's a different story. You are entitled to your opinion, I WILL stick with mine.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
98. She's verbally abused linesman and refs repeatedly over the years and that's verifiable.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 03:21 PM
Sep 2018

Her coach admitted he was coaching from the stands. Ref was enforcing the rules. Facts. I'll stick with the facts.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
154. yes hate
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 07:53 AM
Sep 2018

and it saddens me so many have such visceral hate for black athletes who resist against the wannabe 21st century slave masters. The double standard is alive and well in Amerika.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
173. no
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 09:20 PM
Sep 2018

but some are blind and need to be led. I understand why you can't admit defeat. EVERYONE, has backed Serena. That counts as someone who has the juice to back her. No tissue needed, she has been vindicated by those who count. not some who faux outrage is rendered moot and of NO CONSEQUENCE. bye

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
176. Uh huh
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 10:14 PM
Sep 2018

Everyone is not backing Serena and she made a damn fool of herself. I have a case of puffs tissues for her, too.

 

heaven05

(18,124 posts)
181. you are
Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:02 AM
Sep 2018

enough to make me really laugh. People that count are having Serena's back. Your opinion matters not. Take your tissues somewhere they are needed. Serena can more than buy her own. and she damn sure has more than you. Jealousy is pretty obvious. So take your opinions and tissue elsewhere. Not needed by me or Serena....what a joke all this faux outrage is and the transparency is obvious.

nini

(16,672 posts)
105. He's a dick
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:47 PM
Sep 2018

Did the same crap to Venus in the past. He handled that whole thing completely wrong..

Her reaction wouldn't have been a bip on the radar is she was male.. and white.

Renew Deal

(81,847 posts)
68. What is your evidence of double standards?
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:59 AM
Sep 2018

Prove your point.

This is typical abuser mentality. It’s OK because the victim “deserved” the awful behavior of the abuser.

underpants

(182,627 posts)
40. While I agree with BJK, Serena was wrong
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:40 AM
Sep 2018

It seems clear that she got coaching from the box and also abused equipment and then she went off when she should have known to stop and cut her losses.

The score tells you everything you need to know. It wasn't her day. She made a truly remarkable comeback (in terms of time) but sometimes the ball says NO. Ball don't lie.

Hav

(5,969 posts)
45. Pure nonsense
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:50 AM
Sep 2018

To degrade real sexism for one's own bad behavior and clear rule violations is disgraceful in addition to an insult to women.
Others have mentioned that her coach later admitted to coaching her while she told the ump he didn't and would rather lose than cheat. That would make her a liar as well.

And what is this nonsense with comparing it to what men do? When they have breakdowns and throw insults, they get punished as well. No one calls them outspoken for it.

Botany

(70,447 posts)
49. Serena was classless and went off her nut because she was going to lose.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:02 AM
Sep 2018

She is a the G.O.A.T. of women's tennis but her actions were wrong.

BeyondGeography

(39,351 posts)
52. On another note
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:14 AM
Sep 2018

Who cares if coaches coach during the game? They do in every other sport. Let’s take France’s World Cup away because Deschamps told Pogba to look for Mbappe DURING THE GAME! What a stupid rule.

jalan48

(13,842 posts)
53. The Lady doth Protest too much.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:16 AM
Sep 2018

Her coach admitted he was using hand signals but Serrena denied looking, I guess he just can't help himself even though Serena never looks!. Serena got caught breaking the rules and it was embarrassing for her. That's why she couldn't let it go.

jayddrew

(12 posts)
60. Serena was inappropriate, but her premise was 100% correct.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:33 AM
Sep 2018

Serena had no right to rip that umpire and call him a thief. That was as deep a personal insult as the implication that she was cheating. However, her point was spot on about the double standard between men and women in tennis. What happened with her was a prime example, and the episode earlier with the young lady who changed her shirt is the smoking cannon. Whether this particular umpire was aware of what he had done is beside the point, but if he has a history of this, it should be explored separately.
This should not fade - the women in tennis, current players and historic figures (King, Everett, Navratilova, Graf, etc.) need to approach all the major tennis organizations and demand this be addressed ASAP. If that means many major rule changes, from dress to behavior to coaching, so be it.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
72. He invoked a rule that her team was breaking.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:18 PM
Sep 2018

Her coach was coaching. He said so. I posted up thread that she must know (he said he did it 'every' point). You mean to tell me her coach 'coaches all the time' and during this match every point - and she has 'no idea'? That just doesn't make sense.

She knows her coach. She must know.

If you don't like a rule, change it. But if you get caught breaking it - well, then, you get caught breaking it.

Honestly, if she had just let it go, then it was just a warning.

LenaBaby61

(6,973 posts)
107. She's a black and a woman. She should just have shut up and taken it.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:58 PM
Sep 2018

As for that chair umpire, he sure as hell wouldn't have taken a game away from a male during a championship match. Some gold-star official. From Nadal, Nole or Fed during a championship match? NO WAY. He also accused VENUS of cheating too. Humm 🤔

It's not just Serena: how umpire Carlos Ramos has clashed with players.

The former champion said she had been unfairly treated by the official during Saturday’s US Open final. She is far from the first player to find fault with him.

The former champion said she had been unfairly treated by the official during Saturday’s US Open final. She is far from the first player to find fault with him

It is said that umpires and referees are doing a good job if fans don’t notice they are there. If that’s the case then Carlos Ramos’s performance during Saturday’s controversial US Open final was a failure.

The Portuguese umpire penalised Serena Williams three times during her loss to Naomi Osaka, ultimately awarding the Japanese player a game after Williams called Ramos a “thief”. Williams accused Ramos of sexism, pointing out that men are rarely called out for such outbursts.

Ramos is a “gold-badge” umpire, a status conferred on the top officials in tennis. He has vast experience and has umpired a final at all four grand slams, as well as the 2012 Olympic men’s final, in which Andy Murray beat Roger Federer.


Serena Williams burns the house down as Naomi Osaka's brilliance is forgotten
Read more
Ramos also has a reputation as a stickler for the rules. At last year’s French Open, he drew criticism from the eventual champion, Rafael Nafal after they argued during a fourth-round match. Ramos gave Nadal two warnings for slow play, and the Spaniard felt he was being unfairly treated.

“I say it with sadness, but he is an umpire who scrutinises me more and who fixates on me more,” Nadal said after the match. “He also pressured me about coaching. I have respect for him and all I ask is for that to be reciprocated.

“The umpires are here to analyse the match and they are not here to use the stopwatch. There are some who like to take part in the matches more and who like to put more pressure on than others. If you want to see good tennis, you have to let the players breathe a little.”

Ramos has also been accused of inconsistencies. At this year’s Wimbledon quarter-final between Novak Djokovic and Kei Nishikori both players threw their rackets to the ground in frustration. However, only Djokovic was issued a warning and directed a comment at the umpire during the game: “Double standards, my friend, double standards,” he told Ramos. After the match, Djokovic brought the subject up again with reporters. “I thought I didn’t harm the grass. I know how I threw the racket. [Nishikori] even threw the racket in the fourth set. [Ramos] said he didn’t see it it.”

Ramos has also been accused of grandstanding. At the 2016 Olympics, he issued Andy Murray with a code violation when he thought the reigning champion had called him “stupid”.

“I didn’t say ‘stupid umpire’, I said ‘stupid umpiring’. But if you want to be the star of the show, that’s fine,” said Murray as the two spoke during a break between games.




Williams’s sister, Venus, has a history with Ramos too. At the 2016 French Open he accused the elder Williams of receiving coaching during a match, the same offence he penalised Serena for on Saturday. Like her sister, Venus denied she had cheated. “I’m 36 years old,” she said. “I play fair.”

Although it is impossible to prove whether Ramos was being pedantic or sexist during Saturday’s final, it is true that he has never penalised a player a game in such a high-stakes match. For former US Open champion Billie Jean-King there is little doubt where the blame lay. “When a woman is emotional, she’s hysterical’ and she’s penalized for it. When a man does the same, he’s ‘outspoken’ and there are no repercussions,” she wrote on Twitter. “Thank you, Serena Williams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/09/carlos-ramos-serena-williams-tennis-umpire-us-open

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
121. Nope, I support her lashing out against the WTA's blatant sexism... and, frankly, racism too
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:36 PM
Sep 2018

though Serena held back on that charge, which everyone, nonetheless, knew was plainly evident. Why are male tennis players not held to the same standard?!

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
126. No, it's not "plainly evident to everyone".
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:42 PM
Sep 2018

Do you have proof that male players aren't held to the same standard?

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
144. The only mess is that which has been created by the WTA that leads to crap like this...
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:50 PM
Sep 2018

Good for Serena calling these bastards out on their double standards and hypocrisy.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
112. So do I. She's had to put up with so much crap over the years.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 07:24 PM
Sep 2018

That crowd booing her for being black that time...sportscasters making snide comments about her body type...I even read that she got tested for drugs more than any other tennis player. I feel sad that so many here are telling her how she should act, how the way she reacted is wrong...same as it ever was, for successful, powerful women in the public eye. They're supposed to hold it all in, never be angry, be perfect ladies. Then, even after she composed herself and put an arm around Naomi Osaka and asked the crowd to stop booing and make this a good moment for her—she gets criticized for that! Bah.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
124. It's gotten fuckin' ridiculous!!! Good for Serena standing up against the bullshit
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:38 PM
Sep 2018

that's been thrown her way. She shouldn't have to take this crap anymore... I applaud her!!

WiffenPoof

(2,404 posts)
71. Serena Was WRONG, Period
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:10 PM
Sep 2018

I can't believe some of the posts here that are defending Serena. I also can't believe the panel on "A.M. Joy" who obviously know nothing about tennis.

I have played and watched tennis since the John McEnroe days of throwing racquets and yelling at umpires.

Things were getting so bad in the seventies that the powers that be decided to crack down on bad behavior on the court (including coaching from the stands).

I am so pissed at Serena.

Let me make it clear that I think Serena is not only the greatest women's tennis player in history. But possibly the greatest athlete in history.

Serena Williams acts like the most entitled person on earth. She is beginning to believe the opinion that she is the greatest and is entitled to break the rules (like threatening the life of a lines person a few years back).

Serena and her team broke the rules... It is that simple. Gone are the days where you can insult an umpire or throw a racquet without penalty.
Imagine if Osaka had done what Serena had done. Do you think she would have gotten away with it. I think not. But because she is Serena.... I might add that any male player would have suffered the same penalties.

Serena wasn't even penalized for a time delay during her tirade.

She demanded an apology because she felt like her character was questioned. I have no idea what she is talking about. In fact, Serena questioned the umpires character by calling him a liar.

Then... Realizing she made a fool of herself, she flips a switch and acts all gracious. I've seen this from her before and I don't buy it.

My heart goes out to Osaka. This should have been all about her. Instead Serena stole her thunder. Osaka came out and shocked Serena in the first set and Serena couldn't handle it.

Serena you may very well be the greatest to have ever played the game, but sometimes your attitude and sense of entitlement do not serve you well.

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
73. That point when she 'flipped' the switch
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:22 PM
Sep 2018

made me angry. It was like she was now going to run that show, too.

The problem was - it wasn't a show. It was Osaka's moment.

LenaBaby61

(6,973 posts)
110. Lleyton Hewitt made a racist DAMN fool of himself at the 2001 US Open...
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:58 PM
Sep 2018

Because he used his racism card on a black lines man & James Blake. Yet NOTHING was done to him.

Humm 🤔

I guess it was because of HIS sense of WHITE MALE ENTITLEMENT, which served him WELL because nothing happened to him. He won the tournament and slurred a black lines man and James Blake.

Got away with it.

I actually follow tennis on the regular. Have this past 51 years. Anyway, I'm STILL waiting for HIM to be defaulted for his racist remarks about that lines person/Blake 17 years later. I'm still waiting for him to be fined for his racist remarks. Hewitt was a complete jerk on the tennis court as well. White Male privileges.


Hewitt not fined for tirade.

NEW YORK — U.S. Open officials decided Saturday not to discipline Lleyton Hewitt for his tirade during a five-set victory a day earlier, saying it was unclear whether his comments were racially motivated.

Because evidence was inconclusive, Hewitt didn't violate the Grand Slam code of conduct, tournament referee Brian Earley said.

Playing on Friday against James Blake, one of the few blacks in the event, Hewitt complained after being called for two foot faults by a black linesman and requested that the official be removed.

Television microphones caught the Australian saying to the chair umpire: "Look at him. Look at him, and you tell me what the similarity is. Just get him off the court."

Some observers, including Blake, thought Hewitt was noting that the linesman and Blake were both black. But the umpire, Andreas Egli, inferred no racial overtones, Earley said.

Hewitt told officials Saturday what he meant by the comment was that the same linesman made both foot-fault calls.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/861873/Hewitt-not-fined-for-tirade.html


White males breaking the rules again and getting away with it. AGAIN. What's else is new

In any event, it doesn't for an instant excuse what Hewitt said or the complete lack of backbone shown by tennis authorities in dealing with him. He probably should have been defaulted on the spot -- the rule book allows for immediate default for "gross misconduct," and this was about as gross as you can get. To then listen to the tape and take no action is inexcusable.

James Blake chose to take the high road, saying that things get said in the heat of battle and no hard feelings. He's entitled to feel that way. But there should be hard feelings. Hewitt is a spoiled, arrogant tennis prodigy surrounded by excuse-makers who blame everyone but him when he gets into trouble. (This was not a first, just the worst.) By the end of the tournament, the TV announcers were actually heard saying that Hewitt had "overcome" the controversy of the first week. Overcome? Oh, please.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2001/09/11/hewitts-fault/a9e7bd0b-91b7-4952-bd56-7d36243b0ece/?utm_term=.c19780e535c7

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
129. Thank you for pointing out the blatant double standards Serena is fighting against.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:48 PM
Sep 2018

She should be applauded, not condemned, for her brave actions.

LenaBaby61

(6,973 posts)
150. Thank you for pointing out the blatant double standards Serena is fighting against.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:46 AM
Sep 2018

You're welcome 😊

Someone on this very site compared Serena to Donald tRump. Called her a bully and said she was acting just like him. Yep, here on Democratic Underground. I'd compare Ann Coulter to tRump because for her whole existence, Coulter's been an ignorant, race-bating asshole just like tRump, yet SERENA'S like tRump?

Wonder why no one cared about Lleyton Hewitt's racist actions from the 2001 US Open? He made a racist ass of himself, but HE didn't get fined nor kicked out of the 2001 US Open tournament. The USTA said that what he said in accusing a black lines man of cheating for James Blake who he was playing, was not racist. Hewitt's a WHITE MALE, so he must have been telling the truth about what he said not being racist, right He never was given ANY punishment for his actions. I remember James Blake being praised for being a GOOD man for "taking the high road" and for "turning the other cheek" (Hewitt remained a total prick his whole career). Of course many people (Even some sports writers back then), were quick to say that some of the Williams Family's "actions" could be considered racist, and of course the match-fixing accusations were thrown in for good measure. I'm a 20 plus year Serena Williams fan (Have been following tennis since 1969), and while I wished she could have handled the situation better with Ramos, the Chair Umpire sure didn't handle the situation well himself. Pretty sure he wouldn't have interjected himself into a male player's championship match. Yes, Serena was being beaten by Osaka, but Serena was beating Jennifer Capriati in 2004's US Open until the chair umpire and lines people took over and cost HER that match. The USTA had to issue an apology to her because that match was officiated so horribly. I think Serena had that reaction back to 2004 during the Finals match because she's been accused of being a cheater for so long--accused of 'intimidating' or being 'brash' or even 'threatening' towards the other "gentle" women of the tour. And, how dare she win matches and championships over these last 2 decades with her serve. There are still the doping accusations But you know something, the truth is stranger than fiction because in reality, it was the WTA'S promoted as such "Face of tennis" and "It Girl," blonde and Russian" Maria Sharapova who was found to have been using Meldonium for well over 10 years. It was not banned when she was using it, but she forgot to read her email stating that this particular PED was put on the banned WTA banned list right around the time of the finals of the 2016 AO Open in January. When questioned as to why she was using this PED, she said that she needed the drug over a decade ago for her heart because heart problems run in her family. Then, she said she used it for diabetes which runs in her family. Odd though, because she's "evolved" into quite the Candy Mogul over the years. Yes, selling her "fine" candies and now "fine" chocolates to children all over the globe at the various tournaments in the WTA, and in various department stores. She's very lucky that her ban was shortened so that she could resume her tennis career. Odd thing though, and it's that she's really struggled on the tour post-Meldonium (Which is really good for faster physical recovery/endurance and stamina). She used to be known for playing in and winning a lot of 3-set matches. She's never been the best athlete, but at 31, she's always practiced well and kept herself in tip-top shape. I wonder WHAT could have happened to the 5-time singles slam and former "IT Girl" of the WTA to make her struggle so after returning from her ban and struggle so in winning matches 🤔

And speaking of James Blake again:



Yeah, he's lucky to have had a video of his arrest, or else the policeman might have said that he was guilty of something. We know how things can escalate into death be some policemen when you look a 'certain' way.

Oh yes, the WTA & ATP has been a mini-Peyton Place--full of accusations, denials, sexism and racism for a very long time--just like in normal, everyday world

moondust

(19,960 posts)
74. Unless she knew this umpire
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 12:26 PM
Sep 2018

had a history of unfair calls based on gender, race, or anything else, I thought Serena was taking a cheap shot at him, using sexism as a weapon. It reminded me a little bit of Gillibrand unfairly going after Al Franken in the heat of MeToo.

Response to kpete (Original post)

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
99. Meh. Serena is just another in a long line of athletes who made asses of themselves.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 04:45 PM
Sep 2018

Do you know how many male athletes, in the history of pro sports, have been penalized for insulting a referee, attacking a referee, insulting an opponent, attacking an opponent, spitting at various people and all sorts of other shitty behavior? So many, one could write entire books on the subject.

Trying to make this about sexism helps no one except Trump.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
113. Never has a male tennis player had a game taken from him b/c he called the chair ump a name.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 07:36 PM
Sep 2018

Never has a male tennis player been penalized for changing his shirt on the court.

And WTF does Trump have to do with it?

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
115. Serena lost a game because it was her third infraction.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 07:58 PM
Sep 2018

I agree with you on the shirt-change penalty. That was ridiculous.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
147. The warning for her, against her coach coaching, was a crap call.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:30 PM
Sep 2018

The other players on the tour say so too. Especially in a Slam event. Crap call.

Tursiops

(89 posts)
160. Not really. Illegal coaching is rife, yes. But other players are called on it
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 05:17 PM
Sep 2018

It's not a group sport. If you are getting advice from your coach in real time it is an unfair advantage. Her coach is right: everybody does it (except Federer and some others, including Osaka) and it should be called out much more. I think the reason it was in this case is because it was so obvious and it was a Final.

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
164. Really... are you sure about that?
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:28 PM
Sep 2018

"Controversy was never far from McEnroe, however; in his fourth-round match against Mikael Pernfors at the 1990 Australian Open, McEnroe was ejected from the tournament for swearing at the umpire, supervisor, and referee.[14] He was warned by the umpire for intimidating a lineswoman, and then docked a point for smashing a racket. McEnroe was apparently unaware that a new Code of Conduct, which had been introduced just before the tournament, meant that a third code violation would not lead to the deduction of a game but instead would result in immediate disqualification; therefore, when McEnroe unleashed a volley of abuse at umpire Gerry Armstrong, he was defaulted. He was also fined $6,500 for the incidents.[24][25][26]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEnroe

"default: Disqualification of a player in a match by the chair umpire after the player has received four code violation warnings, generally for his/her conduct on court. A double default occurs when both players are disqualified. deuce: Score of 40–40 in a game."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_tennis_terms#D

Reader Rabbit

(2,624 posts)
111. It blows me away that so many people refuse to believe a woman knows sexism when she sees it.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 07:23 PM
Sep 2018

We've lived and breathed it our entire lives. If we call it out, it's there.

And I have to say, I'm super uncomfortable with all the Serena-blame because she supposedly "broke the rules," or was "unprofessional," or whatever. It has disturbing echoes of "Well, they shouldn't have broken the law" or "They should have followed the cops' instructions" after every police shooting of a black person. Getting pulled over for "driving while black" is a selectively-enforced rule, too, you know.

And finally, why wouldn't a strong, self-confident woman call out selectively-enforced rules that reek putting said powerful woman "in her place"?

As the saying goes, "Well-behaved women rarely make history."

Reader Rabbit

(2,624 posts)
187. Thanks.
Tue Sep 11, 2018, 02:43 PM
Sep 2018

To say I'm a little disheartened to find so many willing to bash Serena and completely deny that her race and sex played any role in this incident is an understatement. While the anti-woman nastiness against her is nowhere near Gamer-gate levels, it certainly has that vibe.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
146. The Whole Thing Was Troubling
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:26 PM
Sep 2018

I see blame on all parties. I feel for Osaka, it should have been her big moment, breaking through for a major at 20 years old. After the match Lindsay Davenport and Mary Carrillo pretty much expressed the same thought. Sorry Billie Jean, I have been a fan for years but think you are off base a bit here.

Sometimes you have to move on and play the next point, it works out in the long run for you!

Tursiops

(89 posts)
158. This should have never been couched in gender politics
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 05:11 PM
Sep 2018

He has charged men something like four times as women for violations. She got caught cheating. (or her coach got caught. either way its a violation)
Then she broke her racquet. Another violation.

Being the professional champion that she is she knew that verbally attacking the ref was going to surely cost her but she persisted. Not once but twice while she could have been charged with time wasting on Osaka's serve.

Look at her history. Threatening to kill a Chinese lines woman half her size; verbally abusing a female ref. All at the US Open and because the fans are solidly behind her.

Like Mary Carillo said, she is a great champion and person but at her worst she can be a bully.

brettdale

(12,365 posts)
162. Belinda Cordwall (now that I have your attention)
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 05:25 PM
Sep 2018

Although it would be hard to disagree with the great Billie Jean King.

There is a former tennis player from New Zealand, who never won a major, but
played the circuit back in the late 80's.

She came out and basically called Serena a liar, and she there is no doubt that
she was cheating and being coached, she also said that tennis umpire is just known
as being extremely strict and is harsh on all players.

kcr

(15,315 posts)
165. Hmm. Sorry, going to go with Billy Jean King on this one.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 06:31 PM
Sep 2018

I'm not sure why we're supposed to give Cordwall's input special importance, here. A lot of people have played the circuit.

rockfordfile

(8,699 posts)
163. I'm with Serena Williams. It seems though from the start of the tournament Serena was a target.
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 05:25 PM
Sep 2018

Congrats to her challenger, she played a great game.

brettdale

(12,365 posts)
169. Martina Navratilova: Serena Lost the Plot
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 08:09 PM
Sep 2018

Tennis legend Martina Navratilova says Serena Williams lost the plot in her US open final.

Writing in the New York Times, Navratilova said there was a huge double standard for women when it comes to how bad behaviour is punished — and not just in tennis.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12122956

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
175. Well said Martina
Mon Sep 10, 2018, 10:10 PM
Sep 2018

Personal responsibility. Choices. Consequences. Bullying and verbally abusing others is bad.

Smh that this is hard for some people.

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