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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe most plausible story regarding the neighborhood killer cop
She was tired. She went home. Lots of noise in the apartment above. She went upstairs, beat on his door and then proceeded to lose her shit and shot him.
That sounds more like what happened than the crap they are trying to spin.
Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)Johnny2X2X
(19,038 posts)"Open the Door" when you have the key?
Iggo
(47,549 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts).
The only connection we have been able to make is that she was his immediate downstairs neighbor, Meritt said. And there were noise complaints from the immediate downstairs neighbors about whoever was upstairs, and that would have been Botham. In fact, there were noise complaints that very day about upstairs activity in Bothams apartment. Botham received a phone call about noise coming from his apartment from the downstairs neighbor.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/attorney-reveals-potential-link-dallas-cop-innocent-man-gunned-apartment/
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haele
(12,647 posts)But still doesn't explain why her first reaction was to shoot him.
Haele
brush
(53,764 posts)pnwmom
(108,976 posts)she started complaining and then when he didn't respond to her liking, she shot him.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)That story doesn't account for why she parked her car on the victim's floor, rather than her own floor.
That story doesn't account for why there would be "excessive noise" coming from the victim's apartment (he was home alone). And nobody else has claimed there was "excessive noise" coming from the victim's apartment.
The most plausible explanation is that the cop just, plain, fucked up.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)She came home, possibly exhausted and maybe distracted as well by the phone or something, parked on the wrong floor and made some tragic and criminal mistakes.
I dont know why so many people here are intent to go all Alex Jones conspiracy theory on this and invent ways it had to be premeditated.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Her claim of confusion and that's why she was yelling open up. If she lived alone, who did she think was going to answer? Also if she was yelling to open up, how does that square with her claim the door was ajar?
How did she not notice the bright red doormat?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Media reporting of supposed eyewitness accounts immediately after an event are very, very often unreliable. The media doesnt do any work to determine credibility and people are often mistaken and also more often than you may think just make things up- either because they want the attention or because they want to change the story.
As an example the investigators from the DOJ looking into the Micheal Brown case found a whole lot of supposed witnesses who admitted to making it up, claiming they saw things only to alter say they were just repeating what they had heard and claiming to have seen it, or who were adamant they saw things that never happened.
Dont put much faith in random media eyewitness claims in the immediate aftermath of a high profile event.
MaryMagdaline
(6,853 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)The narrative that most closely matches them is most likely the truth.
Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)Facts: 1) White cop with photos of her posing with family or friends who are displaying obvious White Power signs; 2) White cop changes her story several times; 3) Dead, innocent black man, in his own apartment.
Why are you so eager to chalk these facts up to conspiracy theories?
I'm actually upset and suspicious about a manslaughter charge versus murder one at this point.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Murder requires them to prove she had intent to go to that apartment and harm him or that the death happens during the commission of another felony.
If you cant prove intent and dont have another felony in progress at the time, you dont have murder. You have manslaughter.
At this point, absent the conspiracy theorists fantasies, there is nothing that even comes close to proving any intent existed to the standard required to bring charges and convict somebody.
There is absolutely more than enough for a slam dunk conviction on manslaughter.
You are framing a situation in your mind to try and steer judgement one way, because thats what you want. Sit back and look at it from the standpoint of a jury and of a prosecutor. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a high burden to reach. Nothing we have seen here proves she went the the wrong apartment INTENTIONALLY with the INTENt to harm or kill him. Nothing. You can cherry pick the bits and pieces you want to try and make that seem so and connect the dots with things that exist only in your mind to convince yourself, but the evidence of that isnt there. And the defense will easily sell the other story- exhausted cop, just finished a 12+ hour shift, parked on the wrong level of a series of buildings that all look alike, made a tragic mistake.
Its a clear Manslaughter case. Its nowhere near a Murder case. And just because you hate cops doesnt make it a Murder case.
brush
(53,764 posts)You don't bang on your own door and yell to be let into your own apartment.
There had to be some kind of prior relationship.
Hope it comes out and is not whitewashed past the grand jury.
Just the fact that they're having a grand jury scares me as a biased, cop-favoring DA can slant the evidence and not call certain witnesses to get the cop off.
They have a dead man and the person who they know killed him, why don't they just charge her and take it to trial? We've seen grand juries in other killings of unarmed AA men used to "exonerate" killer cops.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Dont put heavy credence in random media reports of eyewitness claims that are otherwise unsubstantiated. They often end up being false.
brush
(53,764 posts)next door neighbor was quoted as hearing the knocks on the door, the yelling to be let in, a sound of a scuffle, then gun shots.
No grand jury needed. They have the dead body and the killer.
Take the killer to trial and let her make her case.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Sneederbunk
(14,289 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)but the police get to. Also, you know the other cops told her to keep her mouth shut.
Hav
(5,969 posts)had already filed two noise complaints against him, would it sound more plausible? It doesn't really matter though without sufficient evidence. Regardless of the prior complaints, she could have still made these string of terrible decisions that led to the tragedy.
malaise
(268,930 posts)How did the neighbors her her shouting 'open the door'.
LakeSuperiorView
(1,533 posts)as apartments? I've never seen parking on the apartment levels. Having multiple levels of parking is rare, apartments and parking on the same level?
csziggy
(34,136 posts)Look at South Side Flats in Dallas, Texas, then on Google Street View go around the complex to the southeast on Powhattan Street. Across the empty lot you can see the parking garage which is four, if not five, levels (ground level plus four if they use the top level for parking.
LakeSuperiorView
(1,533 posts)If I'm looking at the right thing, the parking structure is completely separated from the apartment building. One has to walk across the alley to enter the apartment building. Which makes the "parked on his floor" not make any sense.
csziggy
(34,136 posts)The apartment complex does extend the width of the block behind the parking garage, if you "travel" up lamar and look at it from the north side, so it may be connected there. The entire complex is a huge four sided affair, extending from Lamar Street on the west side to the railroad on the east side. Unfortunately the Google Maps aerial view was taken before the complex was completed so the layout is not clear.
The website for the complex shows a large swimming pool and patio area - that has to be inside the block of flats closest to the railroad tracks.
OK, here is a page that shows a current aerial view but you have to scroll down. It looks as though there are two sections of apartments, an L- shape that includes the street level store fronts and a U-shape that encloses the pool. The parking garage seems to be at the back corner where the two sections come together"
https://www.har.com/south-side-flats/apartment_5211A
LakeSuperiorView
(1,533 posts)I was looking at this building. The "parked on his floor" is nonsensical as one can't get a car into an apartment building.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)It sounds like it had an attached parking deck. She parked on the floor above hers.
LakeSuperiorView
(1,533 posts)Street view, unless the pics are dated, shows one has to go to street level and cross an alley before ascending inside the apartment building. An attached to each level parking garage would mean foregoing windows along an entire side of the building. Unless they have razed the site and rebuilt since Google maps took pictures, the building that is there would not lend itself to attaching a parking structure alongside the building.
Demovictory9
(32,448 posts)crap.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)She was verifiably working prior to getting home. The cops will know where she was and what she was doing for her entire shift. And she was still in uniform when the incident happened.
GemDigger
(4,305 posts)with that night and there were several of them with one being that same day or shortly before.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Hav
(5,969 posts)See also post 63 in this thread with indications by the attorney that there could have been causes for anger in the past between the two:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211119667#post63
WhiteTara
(29,703 posts)doesn't sound like a noise machine to me.
fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)exboyfil
(17,862 posts)and she went to confront him. If a witness sustains the story of her yelling "Open up", then it is a very plausible scenario but one you never will be able to prove.
I want to know how close he was to the door when he was shot. That would support that he actually opened the door.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Sneederbunk
(14,289 posts)Rather than speculating or making things up.
elleng
(130,865 posts)Imagine that, waiting until facts come out!
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)But if she's shouting open the door, then that means:
1. She tried to get in but couldn't.
2. She assumed someone was in there to open the door.
2 generates more questions. Why did she assume someone was in there? Did they make sounds? If she thought it was an intruder, why would she ask them to open the door? I certainly wouldn't announce myself like that if I thought there was an intruder in my apartment, who could also be armed. Even if I was an armed officer. Did she think she knew the person inside? Was she expecting someone to be inside?
Other questions:
1. Was there some sort of unknown relationship between the two? (Positive or negative).
2. Did she realize she wasn't on the correct floor for her apartment but was dating or involved with someone on that floor? (either the victim, or some other person and she just got the door wrong). We assume she parked on the fourth floor incorrectly, but what if she intended it?
3. Why didn't the giant red floor mat clue her into not being in the right apartment. I don't care how tired you are, that's something one assumes you would notice. Now if you are drunk/high, you very well might not notice it or react appropriately to it.
Not to say your scenario isn't also possible, but why would she draw her gun over such a minor dispute? Why wouldn't we hear some sort of extended argument like turn down your effing TV or don't stomp around? It's basically he opens the door, and she more or less shoots him, without discussion. That suggests to me that there really wasn't any confrontation.
If she's trying to open a door with a wrong key, it makes noise. The person inside may hear that someone is messing with their door knob and ask who is there. That would then let her know there is someone inside.
Imagine being at home in your own apartment, and your doorknob starts jiggling because someone is obviously messing with it. What do you do?
If she thought it was an intruder, why would she ask them to open the door?
If she thought someone was inside her apartment, then what would you expect her to do? Leave? Call the police? She IS the police.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)The first is an assumption. We don't know if/when she heard sounds. Was it before she even put her key in? Was it after?
If someone started messing with my door, my initial reaction would be to be silent. After that, if I thought they were continuing to try and come in I would probably both look for my phone to dial 911 and say hey who are you and why are you trying to get into my apartment.
But, again, we don't know what kind of door handle it was, we don't know if he even was in his living room and heard anything.
Thus my question...the answer tells us something, whatever that answer is.
The second. First, if she thought it was an intruder, why would her response be to pound on the door and say let me in? I would not expect her to do that.
I would expect her to call for backup. I would expect her to announce herself as a police officer and issue commands.
What evidence we have is she did neither of those things except to bang on the door and say let me in.
LandOfHopeAndDreams
(872 posts)Her friends at the department, the union, and her lawyer, need more time to get the best possible story together. One with the greatest chance of getting her off completely, or at least, with a very light sentence. God forbid she loses her right to carry a gun! That would be a true tragedy.
LandOfHopeAndDreams
(872 posts)She was clearly a nervous cop, with an itchy trigger finger. Perhaps the incident from the year before made her more prone to shoot first, ask questions later. Actually, that's pretty much the Pig motto these days, shoot first, if something bad happens to the person you shot, worry about that later. Or not at all, you were in fear for your life, after all.
So my theory is, she thought it was her apartment, and someone was trying to lock her out. Perhaps she heard noises inside, so she banged on door. She was startled when it opened, not to mention it was a Black man, and she knew that most black men were bad news, and this one was in her apartment. So she stood at the ready, and shot him, after all, she was standing her ground, and in fear for her life.
So yes, it was an honest mistake, right up until the point she took advantage of her position, and the fact she had a gun, to take action. She soon realized that she screwed up, and perhaps she might now lose her job, and started to panic, and think of ways to justify what she did. It takes time to come up with a coherent story, one that can stand in place for when she goes to court. They'll eventually come up with an appropriate screenplay, and stick to it.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Gunfucker logic.
tblue37
(65,322 posts)fleur-de-lisa
(14,624 posts)The attorney for the victim, S. Lee Meritt, appeared on CNN Tuesday where he was asked by host Brooke Baldwin whether there was any connection between the two.
The only connection we have been able to make is that she was his immediate downstairs neighbor, Meritt said. And there were noise complaints from the immediate downstairs neighbors about whoever was upstairs, and that would have been Botham. In fact, there were noise complaints that very day about upstairs activity in Bothams apartment. Botham received a phone call about noise coming from his apartment from the downstairs neighbor.
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)Sneederbunk
(14,289 posts)csziggy
(34,136 posts)Since her story is that she got off work and went home, going to the wrong floor she did not have time to make a noise complaint that evening. If the released story is a lie and she had gone to her own apartment, complained to management about the noise with no results, then went up to Mr. Jean's apartment to complain to him, she should be charged with murder.
If she had complained that morning before she went to work then could she have been on a hair trigger that evening?
According to the YELP reviews, the South Side Flats was a good place to live until a new management company took over in 2017. Some of the reviews comment that complaints to security, who I guess would handle noise complaints, took days if not weeks to get results.
mshasta
(2,108 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)she would get away with it..
dalton99a
(81,450 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)on the force. She's 5'2". At that height and from the photos of her she could've weigh more than 140 lbs.
Most people she would come into contact with as a cop would be bigger than her so it's entirely possible that she would be more inclined to pull her gun to protect herself from being physically overpowered, as shown by being in two shooting incidents in just 4 years on the force when most cops never have to used their gun.
Seems too small to be an officer.
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)Her apartment was directly below Jean's apartment. I think she snapped and killed him when he wouldn't bend to her authority.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Outside of that I don't buy a damn thing she said. I think she started to open a dudes door and startled him and then went full rambo when she saw him. I do not think that the door was "ajar" and I think that story is total bullshit, and the only person who can refute it is dead.
Cattledog
(5,914 posts)The only way they can be ajar is if an object is placed to prevent it from closing.
displacedtexan
(15,696 posts)I saw a picture of the door this morning, and there's no way you don't glance at it every time you get home. I lived in a loft for 4 years, and I glanced at the number on the door every time. And it didn't have a brightly lit number.
brush
(53,764 posts)floor and went to the wrong apartment. Your senario sounds plausible.
I hate to think of the other possibility that's in the back of my mind, that she she, being in white supremacy circles, planned the whole thinga black guy, noisy neighbor. She had gotten away with shooting someone before so in her mind she'd just shoot him in the gut like the last guy who didn't die and claim it was a mistake, wrong apartment.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)KWR65
(1,098 posts)Just because you hate police doesn't mean that you have to make stuff up to paint her in the worst possible light. Have you ever made a mistake in your life? I know I have.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)An average citizen that entered a police officers a apartment and accidentally shot and killed the
police officer. Do you honestly think they would be treated the same way This police officer has been treated???
KWR65
(1,098 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Not sure it's a good idea to ask 'regular' people to relate to this situation
KWR65
(1,098 posts)leftstreet
(36,106 posts)ecstatic
(32,681 posts)they're human and fallible. Anyone who acknowledges that s/he is human and capable of making mistakes would have taken a lot more precautions than Guyger did. Either way, that's a moot point as the evidence now points toward a noise-rage murder.
Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Anytime you have humans doing anything it will be imperfect.
In comparison police officer make far fewer fatal mistakes than medical professionals do.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)The Killer Cop wasn't at a crime scene, or responding to an incident. No one called on her expertise or put her in a situation where she could potentially make a mistake
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)1) We don't hate police. I personally hate how police officers are seen as above the law, instead of as its executors held to at least the same standards as ordinary citizens while off-duty. There's argument for expecting somewhat more out of officers of the law, that they should as virtue of hopefully being adequately trained and having more knowledge of the law than the average citizen, but in the criminal responsibility portion the most we can Constitutionally ask for is equal treatment and standards for officers as citizens. Particularly when off-duty, but that's when its most vital.
2) To have a trial, charges had to be filed. 72 hours before arrest? Would that have happened had Dallas PD not started officer-involved shooting protocols, which might have included union agreements to not be questioned or taken into custody for a certain amount of time, despite her being off-duty? Would alleged witnesses have been making their statements to the media before officers, allowing their information to potentially contaminate the interview with the unquestioned suspect? Why, when the Dallas PD dropped their OIS protocol at noon Friday, did they not immediately move into the same processes they would use -- at least giving her the opportunity to turn herself in Friday, vs delay until Sunday?
3) Recently there have been multiple reports of officers who mixed their on and off-duty roles. The officer who essentially held an innocent family hostage with his gun, threatening to shoot them and claiming it was "his house" when he mixed up his AirB&B with another home is a prime example. Any other person would have been arrested as soon as proof was available that confirmed their identity, given the chance to obtain a lawyer, and put up bail. They didn't do anything of the sort. And in the context of what is both Constitutional and responsible about holding officers of the law to a slightly higher standard, there shouldn't have been caginess from the NYPD about his duty status and investigation. That time nobody died, but an innocent family was terrorized. That IS a crime, drunk and on vacation or not. Where's the accountability?
4) Part of the issues surrounding perceived "special treatment" of officers is that it leads TO such speculation. If Dallas PD had arranged arraignment for Friday after dropping their OIS protocol, she'd probably still have been free, but bailed -- aka, committed to coming to court. If unions want to put up bail money in mixed situations where it might seem to potentially violate the union rules, especially if the off-duty officer acts in an on-duty manner and may seek that defense (and no citizen must speak so delaying the interview beyond union limits would still be fine), I don't see a problem. But she was perceived to be given special treatment by delaying that necessary consequence of getting caught doing something potentially illegal -- the free fingerprinting and photography, then paying for your physical freedom and promising to appear in court. Even if you're found innocent in said court.
5) I gave my unvarnished opinion of her behavior in this post, and you may feel some "cop-hate" in it, as well as "cop-prejudgment" -- expecting more out of people we give guns to and ask to maintain the peace. But FFS, even I am not so much of an idiot to go inside my home to confront a burglar inside it. And I have carried. I certainly can say that shooting at "a dark silhouette" in an allegedly completely dark apartment is NOT following the fourth rule of gun safely. Therefore NOT an accident. It was pure negligence in the best possible view, recklessness in the view of the law per her charges finally. When you have someone trapped in an apartment, backing out so you are able to have the door in your sights and calling 911 is the safest, smartest option for any armed person.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... seeds out.
I do feel DPD will make this right, they have a decent track record so far sans this incident
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)and the words of the witnesses who heard her screaming at him to open the door.
She is a trained police officer. That means she KNEW that once she realized someone was in "her" apartment, she should have immediately retreated and called for back-up.
Nothing about what she did makes sense -- unless she was "accidentally" too drunk to know what she should do.
Demsrule86
(68,546 posts)she went into an apartment and gunned a man down. That is not a mistake...it is murder. Stop defending her.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Its a clear case of manslaughter and she will be convicted.
Its not murder, however, unless we see some new evidence. Murder requires intent to harm or the death happen while another felony was being committed. We dont see that here. What we do see is reckless actions that set off a chain of events that led to the death. That is Manslaughter under Texas law.
Demsrule86
(68,546 posts)she is a murderer...got irritated by noise went to the apartment and shot him...because she thought she could...being police and all...arrest her and charge her.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And the theories in your head are not admissible in court.
If the totality of the circumstances was diferent, and she had been at home all day and not just arriving home after a 12 hour shift, maybe they could try and sell that to a jury. But given all the circumstances- just got home, parked on the wrong floor, rendered first aid immediately after, etc the totality circumstances totally supports a manslaughter charge, and doesnt at all come close to supporting the standard needed to prove intent and get a murder conviction.
Some of you anti-cop types get as irrational in your conspiracy theories that you display the same kind of twisted logic as Alex Jones followers when it suits you. You decide what the truth has to be based on your own biases then twist logic and cherry pick facts to convince yourself thats reality.
Demsrule86
(68,546 posts)she lost it...murder. You always seem to come to the defense of killer cops...don't know why.
DFW
(54,341 posts)It must get really nasty when it's deliberate.
Beakybird
(3,332 posts)He might have enjoyed music in the early evening while she was sleeping.
I'm waiting for more facts before opining.
I had a roommate who commit suicide, and people confidently speculated after reading the news story that it was the ex-husband who had murdered her - because it so often is. Being her roommate, I knew she was suicidal and that she had attempted before.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)in this country by cops...
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)some kind of substance abuse haze.
edit-and when she sobered up, she started changing her story.