Hillary Clinton was not the 'lesser of two evils'

[Trumpocalypse]

I am so sick of hearing this from those on the purity left.

Watched Chris Hayes show last night and he had some people that didn't vote in 16 and the reason they gave was that they didn't want to vote for the 'lesser of two evils'. That is total BS.

Hillary Clinton would not:

- Separate parents seeking asylum from their children.
- Sign a tax bill that is a giveaway to corporations and billionaires
- Cut environmental regulations
- Appoint far right wing judges like Gorsuch and Kavanaugh
- Cut ACA funding
- Insult our allies while bowing down to Putin.

There is no way Hillary Clinton was the 'lesser of two evils'. Those who refuse to get off their high horse of their "principles" to do the right thing for their country are as much of the problem as those on the right. They need to grow up and realize that elections are not all about them needing to feel inspired. Voting is a responsibility and civic duty.

[secondwind]

1. Hope they are happy with the "better of two evils"

[SHRED]

2. False equivalency is a RW meme

Too bad they fell for it along with the RW Hillary bashing that has occurred for decades.

Link to tweet

[dalton99a]

3. +1

[Eliot Rosewater]

9. Good list , well done. Saying they are not the same is not enough, also...

HIllary is a LIBERAL and would have been an AWESOME fucking president.

We better not fuck up the next election with this BULLSHIT

thanks for the post

[SHRED]

13. You're welcome

[AllaN01Bear]

55. bookmarked for history

[calimary]

187. Excellent list. Good reminders.

Hillary would NEVER have soiled the office of the presidency. She might be accused of a bunch of this shit, but she would be innocent of it. Trey Gowdy dug down everywhere into everything trying to find something to hang her for. He was so Hillary-hostile that if anybody could have found something he would have.

And what were the results? Yep two years I think it was, and zero indictments, and zero convictions. Took Ken Starr and his legions of flying monkeys and they looked all over everywhere trying to dig up dirt. And all they found was a stained blue dress.

I once heard Hillary respond to a question about her and Bill being the most deeply investigated political couple ever. And she came right back with “yes, and we’re also the most exonerated political couple ever, because nobody ever found anything.”

There were so many Clinton haters after them all the time that - if there ever were any actual crimes committed, you bet one of those haters would have found something!

[prudence54]

203. And don't forget

One of Ken Starr's "legion of flying monkeys" was Brett Kavanaugh himself. Amazing how small the world of slimeballs is.

Yes, Hillary would have been so much better. No, Bernie was never the answer, nor a savior or Messiah. He was a flawed candidate who electoral loss in the primaries martyred him to some, to the point where they not only promoted the RW narrative, they shared and liked millions of posts by Russian bots on social media. GREAT JOB, Berniebros! Mission Accompli!

I'm still not ready to make nice, doubt I will ever be. This was all so fucking avoidable.

[calimary]

208. Welcome to DU, prudence54!

I know how you feel. But I gave up wanting to be nice a long time ago. I LOVE Michelle Obama. But I'm afraid that her excellent and moral advice - "when they go low, we go high" - that I'd LOVE to follow, is not an option in THIS world. It only works when both sides agree to play nice. And play fair. And don't try to cheat or rig the game. And the other side won't play that way. And as such, they WIN.

So WE need fighters. WE need people who don't play nice, they play to WIN.

Gotta admit - I'm quite intrigued by the idea of Michael Avenatti throwing his hat in the ring. Say what you will about him. He FIGHTS, dammit! He gets in-yer-face and FIGHTS.

[JI7]

4. i think people who say things like that actually favor many right wing views

[Fred Sanders]

39. People were made that to think that way by massive Russian propaganda inserted into the

election campaign that Clinton was evil enough to lock up!

Even when Shitler was told that a internet meme that Clinton was being assisted by anti-Russia Ukraine, so lock her up, was clearly Russian propaganda...he deliberately soiled the credibility of the Presidential Seal by repeating the Russian lie in a tweet anyway!

A WTF moment to top them all!

[potone]

180. Yes, I think that had a big effect.

I saw many recycled accusations against her from the days when her husband was president. All of those originated with Republican opponents of Bill Clinton and were amplified by the rabid right-wing media. It was very dispiriting to see those scurrilous charges revived by people who were either duped by Russian sources or so rabidly anti-Hillary that they couldn't think rationally. I say this as someone who supported Bernie in the primaries, but voted for Clinton in the general election. How anyone could think that she was either worse than or equivalently bad to Trump is just beyond me!

[treestar]

43. That is true. Or they could be making an excuse

they didn't bother to vote, so these are the excuses when it turned out badly.

[John Fante]

61. I suspect that most of these purists (Cenk, Sarandon, Jimmy Dore)

have a secret hard-on for Trump. I'm tempted to add that idiot Michael Moore to the list.

[Nedsdag]

76. "Purists"? Here we go.

Not everyone is going to be lockstep as many in here.

I voted for her, but I there was warning flags that many did not see. For instance, I still do not understand why the campaign did not return to Wisconsin. There was no excuse whatsoever. None. Also, I am on Facebook, but I didn't see any Russian propaganda regarding the election. And even if I did, it certainly would not sway me into voting for Trump or not voting at all.

But I am not going to personally go after people just because they didn't vote the way I wanted to. Leave the purity tests to the conservatives. I had to personally play peacemaker to two close friends over the election. Life is too short to hold grudges over this.

If that means I am banned in DU because of my opinion, then fine. I said my peace and I am fine with this.

[John Fante]

92. I would let it go if they showed even a hint of

remorse for their divisive rhetoric in 2016, but they haven't. In many cases, they've doubled down on it. I even got into an argument with a Stein voter who insists, two years into this nightmare, that Hillary would have been worse. WORSE! I question the critical thinking skills of anyone who would make such a ridiculous claim.

These types are as impossible to reach as Trumpers. Not worth the effort.

[Nedsdag]

106. I don't understand why they should show remorse.

They made a decision. I don't have anything against them.

It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario.

[John Fante]

121. "I don't understand why they should show remorse."

Perhaps a few hours in one of Trump's kiddie detention camps will help you (and them) understand.

[Nedsdag]

127. This is why this thread is long.

If there's a disagreement, then detention is the answer.

You won't change any minds with that response.

[Hekate]

152. That is an offensively specious reply, Nedsdag: you know very well the poster referred to children

...and babies being ripped from their parents at the border and confined to cages in detention centers indefinitely before being sent across the country without records.

You said: "If there's a disagreement, then detention is the answer. You won't change any minds with that response."

Detention and family separation is occurring in the here and now in our America, and it is TRUMP who is responsible. Never in a million years would Hillary Clinton have condoned this.

[Nedsdag]

155. I never said she would.

The poster wanted me to be put in detention centers.

[MrsCoffee]

190. No, that poster wanted you to grow some compassion and empathy.

[betsuni]

198. +1

[Hekate]

150. I am personally so offended that HRC did not come to my California town PERSONALLY...

...and hang around to shake MY hand that I will never vote for her again. How dare she not come to my town of 100,000 people? How dare she virtually ignore my state of 40 million people in favor of that pipsqueak New Hampshire? Godsdammit she deserved to lose.

My gods I do not want to hear about Wisconsonites getting their noses out of joint any more.

[fescuerescue]

178. But she won California and lost Wisconsin

Clearly, she had the right strategy on California.

But given the results in Wisconsin, I think that maybe, just maybe Wisconsin Dems might have a point.

[Steven Maurer]

195. Are voters in Wisconsin so stupid and shallow...

...that they won't vote to keep a sex-predator out of office because they don't get a personal ass-kissing visit from his opponent?


Sorry. I don't believe it. I believe it had far more to do with racism and downright evil. Just about t only people who go to political rallies are those who have already made up their mind to vote for the candidate. All this BS about her not going to one state or another is just a way to blame-shift by the petulant left.

[fescuerescue]

209. We'll never know

But while we are wondering....Trump is satisfied with the Wisconsin results.

[betsuni]

154. Why did she have to go to Wisconsin again?

I don't understand. Would another rally there have made a difference? Did people in Wisconsin not want to vote for the Democratic nominee unless they saw her in the flesh? Was there a particular local topic they needed addressed? If someone could answer this I'd appreciate it.

I don't get it because I've never lived anywhere a presidential nominee would visit, and even if they did I wouldn't want to go to a rally. I have a TV. I can watch news and debates. I can read all about them at home.

[LisaM]

186. Apparently if Hillary had spent her last two campaign stops in Racine, WI and Watersmeet, MI

the entire election would have been saved.

Of course, the broken voting machines in Detroit and Milwaukee and the voter suppression and gerrymandering in Wisconsin and the gerrymandering in Michigan had nothing to do with events.

[betsuni]

192. I see.

I will join you:

[fescuerescue]

210. I don't think she HAD to go anywhere.

But for some reason. Politicians of all stripes spend millions visiting states and holding rallies.

maybe they are a waste of time. Maybe they aren't.

But I have a hard time believing the politicians spend all that money just for the hell of it.

[yellowdogintexas]

93. some of them still had their knickers in a twist over Bernie

However, I think many of them were either first time or seldom voting people who may have leaned right of center a bit but couldn't bring them selves to vote for #45 because of all the obvious reasons , but bought into the horrid brainwashing about HIllary and were two lazy to find legitimate comparisons (or couldn't "hold their noses" and vote for her as a protection against #45.

I have yet to have anyone actually tell me specifically just what they mean when they say "but Hillary is just such an awful person" So I say " What is your basis for that broad statement?" Give me examples...

nobody ever can

[ananda]

5. I voted for Clinton.

Sanders was my first choice though..

and I still like him!!!

[FakeNoose]

30. I hear you

In 2008 I voted for Obama, but Hillary was MY first choice.
Still I can't complain because Obama was awesome.

[David__77]

110. Me too!

...

[DonCoquixote]

6. even if you felt she was the lesser of two evils

You still had to pick.

If I was given the choice between losing am arm or a leg, I know I would have to make that choice. Many a cancer patient has to deal with that, and sadly, the GOP is exactly that to a body politic, a cancer. Granted, do i want the nation to get chemo so that someday they will NOT have to make choices, and that some on the left will not feel the need to waver between giving the gop half of what they want and everything they want, yes, but that moment was NOT 2016, nor will it be 2018 or 2020.

[Trumpocalypse]

12. On the evil scale

Trump is a 10. At most, and I don’t think Clinton is evil, she is a 1.

[elocs]

62. The GOP depends on those on the Left using false equivalency.

A rational person given a choice between what they perceive as being the lesser of 2 evils, and it will be one or the other elected president, will do what they can do to make sure that the lesser evil prevails. Here in Wisconsin in the presidential election we had thousands on the Left who who chose not to vote for Clinton or not vote at all. There's blood on their hands.
Do this kind of insanity again in 2020 and considering that the Supreme Court is and will be firmly conservative for decades you can look forward to a Trump kind of country for a generation or more.

[Pope George Ringo II]

63. Definitely.

Let's pretend for the sake of argument that every criticism of Hillary from the fair and accurate complaints to the most fevered hallucinatory wacky nonsense Fox News was able to conjure was true. Even if you believed everything Hannity, Limbaugh, and so forth said about her for the last quarter-century, and that all that enormous hit job genuinely represented realty, she was still the most patriotic, intelligent, and honest candidate on the ballot that November. Even under that scenario, it's not close.

For crying out loud, Cthulhu could have gotten the "lesser evil" vote against Trump.

[DonCoquixote]

69. I agree

It really would take an epic feat to be as much of a disaster as trump.

[aikoaiko]

7. What framing allows them to vote for Democrat, I can live with it.

adoration is not required.

[theaocp]

8. While I agree with the sentiment...

They need to grow up and realize that elections are not all about them needing to feel inspired. Voting is a responsibility and civic duty.

...is there a better way to get this message across than berating them for their immaturity? Perhaps filling in the void of inspiration with a love of civic duty? I don't claim to know how to do that, but it's the teacher in me that wants to do something different. Cheers.

[Jim Lane]

22. I agree with you that this kind of berating isn't the best approach

You ask, "is there a better way to get this message across than berating them for their immaturity?" There'd better be, because, in general, such an attack is more likely to make people dig in their heels than to persuade them.

The classic alternative to negativity is to be positive. The approach I favor is along the lines of: "Look, I know that the Democratic nominee is more conservative than you are. This person, if elected, won't be a perfect President. But over the next four years we can at least accomplish some things." Then tailor the specifics to the person's principal concerns. It might be judicial appointments, environmental protections done by executive order or EPA regulation, an FCC that's 3-2 in favor of net neutrality instead of 3-2 against it, etc. Then there's the whole huge area of legislation. Depending on the composition of Congress, that might mean enacting some good laws or just vetoing bad ones.

I hope that the constant lashing out that we see on DU is just harmless venting, in a context where most of the people being vilified won't see it. For actual persuasion -- to do some good in the world instead of just venting -- a different approach is required.

[R B Garr]

85. A simpler and obvious truth and solution is not to spread lies

about our nominee. See the Russian propaganda and why they promoted Trump, Stein and Sanders to harm the Democrat.

[The Mouth]

207. No one has ever made someone change their mind by attacking them

You'd think some people here would figure that out.

It. Simply. Doesn't. Work. That. Way.

No matter how much you hate Trump, or wish Hillary would have won.

Calling someone a fool, evil, a closeted racist or any other insult in simply never going to get a person to agree with you. In fact attacking them, be it gently or with vitriol is the BEST way to get them to double down and NEVER change their mind.

Anyone who doesn't realize, and practice, this is doing more harm than good.

Human nature.

[RiverStone]

36. Agree! Plus - How does the OP help us win in November?

We need all hands on deck to support a blue wave in less than 2 months.

I proudly voted for Hillary - even as a Bernie supporter. We need to embrace ALL progressives for November, including the purest left. We need everyone's votes to crush the enablers of the orange fascist.

[MineralMan]

10. Hillary Clinton Was the Better Choice.

She was selected by Democrats to be the candidate. She was worlds better than the Republican candidate. Sadly, she isn't in the White House, partly due to people who considered here the "lesser of two evils."

It's a shame. A damned shame, if you ask me.

[Martin Eden]

27. Hillary Clinton is worlds better than any Republican

I voted for her in the general election, but in Dem primaries I will not support anyone who voted for the Iraq War resolution in Oct 2002.

[MineralMan]

29. Your decision was a good one.

Sadly, others did not do that, and either did not vote at all, or voted for a token candidate with no chance of winning. The result of that is Donald J. Trump.

Some people need to think more.

[Hekate]

153. A damned shame indeed, and damnation is where we are headed. GOTV this year. nt

[Hortensis]

11. +1000, but highlighting this smear in the title is not good tactics.

This stuff always makes me angry too, and completely agree.

But keep in mind that by far most people only read headlines and titles, which is why they are extensively used to deliver literally billions of smears --by far most of them against Democrats, of course, because our enemies include some very bad people.

[Aristus]

14. The anti-Hillary left is the equal of two evils.

The other being the anti-Hillary right.

It's sad to have to say that purported left-wingers gave us Trump. But it's true...

[FakeNoose]

34. THIS is one of the things the right-wingers used to divide and conquer us

Sadly I don't believe the Democratic Party decision-makers will ever get it though.

[treestar]

44. Which is why the MSM gives the left-wingers airtime.

They may not be that numerous, but they get the platform to spread their sentiment to anyone vulnerable to it.

[justie18]

65. Have to agree

Just check out the numbers from MI, WI, and PA! Jill Stein's votes were greater than Trump's margin of victory over Hillary.

[Nedsdag]

81. Gary Johnson had twice the amount of votes as Jill Stein in those states.

Why does he get a pass? And don't say moderate Republicans disheartened with Trump voted for him because I know a few Democrats who voted for him.

[icaria]

96. don't agree but thanks for not blaming bitter Bernie non-vote

But anyway the Bernie model - Democratic Socialist running under the Democratic party banner - avoids the spoiler problem. There are complaints on many threads about Bernie being a spoiler, but he is really trying to avoid this problem.

[icaria]

94. False equivalence much?

Misogyny, Racism, Hyper-individualism, Hyper-partisanship, Gun-Rights, Russian trolls gave us Trump.

Not so sure it was purported left wingers desire for single payer healthcare, etc.

[Aristus]

100. Any vote cast for anyone other than Hillary Clinton was a de facto vote for Trump.

That's not false equivalence. That's realpolitik.

Russian trolls played their part, no doubt. But lefties who stayed home on Election Day rather than cast a vote for Hillary Clinton gave us Trump. Bottom line.

[Eliot Rosewater]

182. Stay tuned, the same folks are gonna do some shit again.

[qazplm135]

15. if you are a purist

or a young idealist, then she absolutely was.


For the rest of us, no, she clearly was not.

[Trumpocalypse]

16. Then they are self-centered idiots.

[qazplm135]

24. no just idealists

or folks with a low tolerance for compromise.

[Trumpocalypse]

31. No they are selfish idiots.

[honest.abe]

32. Minimal compromise versus jumping off a cliff?

Easy choice for most logical people.

[treestar]

46. civilization is compromises

there are times for the "give me liberty or death" stance, but a stable society is not when. That's why it is stable.

[qazplm135]

177. well sure I understand that

probably why I'm not an idealist.

But ask 18-year-old me, and you probably would get a more idealist answer.
Then after some life happens to you, you start to learn about compromise, and the perfect being the enemy of the good or the good enough.

[Marrah_Goodman]

159. Having fun insulting people who vote the same way you do?

Really, what is the point of this? Not everyone was thrilled about Hillary like you were. They still voted for her. Why the hell do you care what their reasoning was?

I wasn't thrilled voting for her, but I did, because of the two choices she was by far the better choice. But please, keep insulting those of us who voted for her even if we weren't huge fans of hers.

Stupid fucking post.

[Trumpocalypse]

162. You're missing the point.

Sounds like you did the right thing in 16. But there are many who didn't and helped Trump become President.

[betsuni]

165. People who voted for the Democratic nominee in the last election weren't "huge fans."

They just weren't stupid fucking idiots.

[Eliot Rosewater]

183. Absolutely NOT...she was a liberal, one of the most liberal Senators ever.

She was NONE of the things they made her out to be.

That was all lies, fucking lies.

[True Blue American]

196. Lies that have been

Perpetuated by Republicans for 30 years.

Now, you can see the monster they chose.

[brush]

17. Agreed. It's total apathetic bs coming from those to lazy to research party platforms...

to find out what each party stands for and vote accordingly.

Those mouthing that "I didn't want to vote for the lesser of two evils" ridiculousness should be ashamed to make such a stupid statement in public, or in private for that matter.

You vote for the principles and platform of the party, not whether you're so uninspired by the candidate so you don't bother to get off your lazy ass to stop cheating, traitorous repugs from getting in office.

I have more respect for people who vote on both sides than I do for those "uninspired" non-voters who can be bothered.

[comradebillyboy]

18. Is it just me or is there a problem with Chris Hayes?

He seems to be drifting to the fringes of the Democratic Party. Every week I find less to like about his show.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

20. He's certainly no Rachel.

[Trumpocalypse]

21. I credit him for pushing back

on the idiot who said if the Dems ran a more inspiring candidate for Governor, the Republican wouldn’t have won.

[c-rational]

23. Not just you. I feel the same way of late. Why give absolute morons who bought a false

argument any air time. Better to point out critical thinking skills or the disenngenous techniques of the rethugs.

[pazzyanne]

50. I've thought that for a few months now.

It is becoming hard to watch him without calling him an idiot sometimes. I don't watch him much anymore.

[justie18]

68. Yes!

If you watched any of his shows in 2015/2016 it was obvious he was pro-Bernie all the way!

I was very annoyed that he gave those 'voters' all that airtime, especially his introduction - they were the most ignored 'voting block'! What about the Hillary voters - have they been given ANY airtime since the election? Even during the primaries, Hillary support was not given near the airtime as those e-mails!!!!!

[Cha]

157. It's not just you, Billy.

[True Blue American]

197. I quit watching Chris long ago.

[mcar]

19. After all this, the fact that they are still saying that

tells me a lot. It was a ridiculous thing to say then and it's completely absurd now.

[Mr. Ected]

25. Continued propaganda created the "Hillary is evil" tagline

Once introduced into the human brain, most are incapable of self-deprogramming.

There was was only one evil at play. It was the GOP, conspiring with Russia to overthrow the will of the people. Their methods are quite obvious, but their prey was already 90% in the bag.

[icaria]

47. Agreed! - with a minor qualification...

Great post - I think you nailed it!

Hillary was demonized by the GOP/FOX, etc. for twenty years before the 2016 election. They worked hard at it. Hillary herself acknowledged a phenomenon where some of the negativity transfers to both sides. The misogyny is also pretty obvious and we can see it in the response to many other female candidates.

However, I would also point out the "evil" of the two party/winner-take-all system itself that all too often seems to require a desperate vote "against" more than a vote "for" a candidate. It is also practically made-to-order for a reality show approach to an election.

[Eliot Rosewater]

184. Not just them...

[dlk]

26. Misogyny is Deeply Rooted in American Culture

We need to find ways to address and overcome it. The

[icaria]

28. tweedle-dee vs tweedle-DOOM /nt

[sellitman]

33. They are just as deranged as the far right is.

I voted Burnie in the Primary but was proud to work for and vote for Hillary once the cards were on hand.

Those who stayed home... a pox on you. Oh that's right, we already have a Pox. Unfortunately, it's upon all of us.

Good work by the Russian Trolls too.

[lapucelle]

35. I remember when the purity patrol painted environmental activist/Nobel Peace Prize winner

Al Gore as the "lesser of two evils" and helped deliver GW Bush to the White House. They are directly responsible for the Citizens United decision, the Roberts court, and the Iraq war, among other things.

Nor will history exonerate the 2016 purity police and the narcissists who failed to vote because they feel entitled to "inspiration" before they perform the most fundamental of civic duties.

They knew what they were doing and what was at stake in 2000 and 2016. They deserve and will have to live with the full measure of approbation and contempt that they are facing now and will face for decades to come.

[JHan]

37. ++ Personally, when they've been at it for so long,

it's hard for me not to adopt a tone of condescension. Because it's tiring and I fear we'll be back at it in 2020.

There's already disinformation being spread about Harris on twitter, toxic shit I won't repeat here.

[True Blue American]

199. It was a

Corrupt Supreme Court that installed Junior.

The Electoral and Russian dirty tricks brought us Trump.

I have not had any confidence in either for a long time

[radical noodle]

38. I've pretty much stopped watching Hayes

due to comments like that. Obama said it best, “there has never been a man or a woman—not me, not Bill, nobody—more qualified than Hillary Clinton to serve ..."

[True Blue American]

200. Bravo

[treestar]

40. I always ask them why

if they must see it that way, that if they don't vote for the lesser of the two evils, the worse of the two evils will win, and so why live with even worse? Makes no sense when people say that. If they believed it, they'd at least want the lesser of the evils in office.

[NNadir]

41. I really have a hard time thinking of anything "evil" about her. I was looking forward to her...

...Presidency, as she was closely associated with two great Presidencies, was experienced, and by all accounts I accept as true, a highly principled, intelligent, and ethical woman.

[treestar]

42. And do they have to be inspired to go to work?

Inspired to continue their marriage?

Inspired to be a parent to their children?

Inspired to watch a television show?

Inspired to work out/exercise?

Inspired to go to the grocery store?

Inspired to go to their children's sports or performances?

Inspired to cut the grass?

Inspired to take out the trash?

Why is voting so much more than just another thing we do?

[ffr]

45. I voted for Hillary Clinton because she's a wonderfully kind intelligent person who serves.

She's spent her life doing so. Any idiot who knowingly voted for tRump did so out of hatred for something that was falsely said about her or had some preconceived notion about the anarchy that tRump would do to our institutions.

[dchill]

48. Smells like Teen Spirit.

With the lights out, it's less dangerous
Here we are now, entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now, entertain us

[videohead5]

49. A bunch of these people

Think Bernie got screwed out of the nomination by Hillary and the DNC but the DNC does not have control of the primaries. that is all run by the AG of each state. the DNC was also broke and had no influence.

[WhiteTara]

51. Hillary Clinton fought for human rights so fiercely that

Putin said she had to go--Kerry was more pragmatic, he took the natural resources and ignored the human rights abuses. I'm not making this up. This is in the Manafort charging docs to which he pled guilty.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/09/15/paul-manaforts-modus-operandi-accuse-the-female-politician-of-crimes-she-didnt-commit-then-dodge-sanctions/

[Brogrizzly]

52. I mean not to excuse them, but right wing propaganda works.

Decades of right wing smears and attacks, propaganda if you will. Combine that with targeted Russian trolling, hard to combat that ever present oppression/treason in the minds of voters, no matter how goodly one side is versus the other. Scary stuff if you think about it, how a certain percentage of people believe and behave towards other Americans?! I feel empathy for them, try to correct Maga Americans when I run into them, but a lot are just lost causes. We can’t stress over them, all we can control is our own party virtues and stand up for what we feel we need to. Where a lot of the angst against Democrats comes from is the effectiveness of decades long right wing propaganda, when Reagan on down is telling people government is bad, corrupt the good in it, and act purely out of self interest, well were fucked, until we can get a handle on it. Money, etc, I’m sure it’s been numerated many times on this board before.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

53. OMG, what an understatement. In fact...

"Hillary Clinton was not the lesser of two evils" would possibly qualify to be the entire world's understatement of the year.

And, for 2016 and 2017.....

tRump continues to prove that every single day!

[AllaN01Bear]

54. hillary clinton and al gore , the once and true leaders of the usa. :)

[icaria]

74. the Once and Future King

Nice reference there. Camelot is usually associated with JFK.

I'll go with FDR & Bernie!

(and I did vote for Hillary and Al).

[R B Garr]

79. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton actually were elected,

they both got the popular vote majorities, anyway. Both are subjects of actual, historical subversions of our democracy—Al Gore and the Supreme Court and Clinton with the Russian criminal interference. FDR was elected, and I don’t recall any history of him actively smearing Democrats, so he never played spoiler for the GOP.

[StevieM]

188. Our own FBI and State Department Inspector General's offices did a lot more damage with their

dishonest and illegitimate tactics.

She would have easily won had it not been for Comey's multiple interventions.

[R B Garr]

80. Truth! Thank you. nt

[7962]

56. But to ignore their opinions, which are theirs to have, is risky. Independents win elections.

Whether we like it or not. The RW makes the mistake of screaming "RINO!!!" at everyone who isnt perfectly "conservative'. But the independent voter decides elections, not the "base" or either side.

[Trumpocalypse]

64. That's true

but most independent swing voters are in the middle not on the extremes. Because of the purity left, Dems don’t have a secure base like the GOP has. Thus, Dems need more swing voters to win forcing them to go more to the middle.

[7962]

70. I think thats a good analysis. nt

[Cha]

101. NO. The Damn LIES need to be Exposed. The "purity"

squad was brainwashed by jill stein and susan sarand0n among others.

[Nedsdag]

112. And the Stein/Sarandon blame game continues.

Move on! Enough!

[Cha]

116. And it will Happen Again. I don't take orders from Nedsdag.

Or anyone else.

[Nedsdag]

131. Did I say I was your supervisor?

If I were, you'd be surfing right now.

Mahalo!

[Cha]

136. Just so we have that straight.. I will Not stop posting about stein and SS' LIES.

[Nedsdag]

148. And I will not stop saying it's time to move on.

Your posts might as well say Stein and Susan Sarandon should renounce their citizenship and leave the country.

Posts like this are as bad as conservatives going after moderates in the GOP. Let's not sink to their level. I disagree with what both women have said, but I will not deny them their freedom to speak.

[Cha]

156. Yeah, keep covering for Stein and SS' LIES. It's Not working.

They're going to do it again in 2020.

[MrsCoffee]

185. No, posts like this will never be as bad as conservatives in the fucking GOP.

But hey, get your scold on!

[betsuni]

194. "To me one is death by gunshot wound and the other is death by strangulation."

Stein says about the choice between Hillary and Trump. Everyone who pushed the lesser of two evils stuff is likely to do it again. It's about past elections where this happed and winning future elections.

Post #179 posted Bill Maher on the "Lesser of two evils":

"After 100 days it does give us enough evidence to ask those liberals who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary because she was the lesser of two evils. Quite a bit lesser, wouldn't you say now? And no, this isn't about reliving the last election or my great love for Hillary (that never was), it's about winning the next election. And that begins with learning the difference between an imperfect friend and a deadly enemy."

[NewJeffCT]

166. Not really

Elections are won by which side is better at turning out their base - Republicans typically do a much better job of it during the midterms - hence 1994, 2010 and 2014. (The Democratic wave of 2006 was great, but not nearly as big as 1994 or 2010)

Democrats have done better during presidential years - winning the popular vote every year since 1992 except for 2004, but managing to lose the electoral votes in two of those elections.

[samnsara]

57. buttery males...gasp....and those SPEECHES to the bankers..gasp....what did she say/didnt say?....

….gasp...and THAT Foundation!...gasp.....and something about Canada? …..gasp...HOW IN THE EFF were ANY of those excuses valid enuff to install FRIGGEN trump into the highest office into the WORLD...and hand over the keys to humanity to him??? IMHO anyone who didnt vote for Clinton doesnt have a clear understanding of their role as a voter...and they have exactly what they voted for....and they deserve him.

[icaria]

71. Every nation gets the government it deserves

quote from some french guy...

Democracy is hard and requires an informed electorate. We obviously have a largely misinformed electorate, thanks in part to Boris and Natasha!

[JHan]

77. she made speeches about empowering women in business. oh the horror.

[True Blue American]

201. I am with you

On this.

[The Wizard]

58. The Russian / Republican

Bots and Trolls succeeded in suppressing the vote. The unwitting dupes bought the lies and rumors about a woman and ignored the facts about Trump.

[R B Garr]

87. Exactly, and blaming Clinton for this deliberate activity

is not honest and not based in reality. You nailed it.

[Dr. Strange]

59. And yet...

"To me, it was embarrassing to watch that these are our two candidates. Both are proven liars, and it almost seems like they’re trying to debate who's less racist. And at this point, talking with one of my friends, it was, you have to pick the lesser of two evils, but in the end, it’s still evil."

[Trumpocalypse]

67. Not both proven liars

Here is Trump’s rating on Politifact
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
Versus Clinton’s
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

[JHan]

104. "both proven liars" was the attempt to drag her to his level and people fell for it.

see also "both flawed candidates"

[Dr. Strange]

126. Not just fell for it.

People here praise Colin Kaepernick as a great hero and patriot. But he's a dumbfuck who sees no difference between Hillary and Trump, who contributed to this mess.

[JHan]

129. Kaepernick can be praised for his activism in one area...

while we acknowledge he was "dumb" or low information in another area. Kaepernick falling for it is just an example of how successful the disinformation was, in the case of emails it was legacy media pushing a false equivalency with their constant coverage of it.

[JHan]

102. And yet, we now have great evil.

elections have consequences.

And no Clinton is not some great liar. "Both are proven liars" elevates Trump and trashes Clinton. It's false equivocation of the worst kind. It's as bad as "all Politicians are corrupt" which is the sort of rhetoric that lifts the worst politicians and trashes the best among the lot.

[Gothmog]

60. Hillary Clinton is the most qualified candidate in the field

[icaria]

72. She is also the most demonized

Qualifications? That's so pre-2016!

The political process is now so broken that it may require bringing in a candidate with no political history whatsoever - to reduce the opportunity for attacks. Just step out on the sidewalk, yank in the first person walking by and nominate her/him. Chances are 99.99999% the person will be much more well qualified than Trump. (there is a very small probability that it would be Trump walking by...).

[elocs]

73. Republicans tend to view voting as a duty.

Unfortunately too many on the Left need to be excited or motivated to vote and the candidate needs to pass their purity test in order to be a "real" Democrat. In the 2016 presidential election too many on the Left abdicated their duty and responsibility to vote for the one and only candidate who could have stopped Trump from becoming president. They should be ashamed of what they did and shame is useful if it causes a sincere change in thinking and action. One would think the Left would have learned their lesson from what happened in the 2000 election with Gore and Bush, but no, it had to be repeated again in 2016. With what Trump has done with all of his judicial appointments as well as to the Supreme Court this nation will be changed for decades and that's sad because it never needed to happen.
If the Left does not stand together and back the Democratic candidate what happened in 2000 and 2016 could happen again. But as a result of Trump's election this country has been changed forever and we need to grasp the reality that the tens of millions of Trump supporters are here to stay and unless we remain vigilant dutiful the Liberal point of view in the U.S. will fail.

[Nedsdag]

88. You are not making any sense.

I believe in freedom of speech, but you sound too much like a troll.

[Jim Lane]

89. Yeah, let's just redo the 2016 election.

Absolutely no point in trying to win over anyone who's not already 100% with us.

As to the Stein voters et al., many people seem to believe two things:
1) Trump is totally their fault because they didn't vote Democratic in 2016.
2) In 2020, we don't need their votes.

I have the honor to point out that these two propositions are, if not outright inconsistent, at least in considerable tension.

[R B Garr]

120. You keep avoiding that lies were intentionally spread

about our nominee. Don’t forget the lies. Deliberate lies that were designed to turn voters against the Democrat. Don’t forget the lies—that’s the reality. Let’s not spread lies about the Democrat in 2020.

[tenderfoot]

90. You're not good at this

eom

[icaria]

103. is this sarcasm?

I'm new here help me out. (Please don't answer with sarcasm - I might not get it...)

[Yonnie3]

107. She has indicated no interest in running again.

She can't be elected if she doesn't run. Will you sit 2020 out and not vote if she is not on the ballot,?

[Yonnie3]

111. You didn't answer my question.

What if someone else is on the ticket?

[Yonnie3]

119. Life is full of disappointments. nt

[icaria]

128. Okay - not sarcasm

It was the "Better than FDR, JFK, Lincoln, and Washington put together." that threw me.

Go ahead and argue for "Better than JFK" - that will convey the general idea.

FDR, Lincoln, Washington - put together? Nope, that's not serious.

Anyway, nice that you're passionate.

[icaria]

82. Also a power trip

I think you're right about how Republicans view voting, but I also think they are more likely to see themselves as the party that is rightfully in power and they are always motivated to protect and defend that power. White privilege has much to do with it. They obviously view themselves as "real" Americans and patriots who own the American flag. They have the feeling that they are holding onto something and protecting a threatened position.

A large part of the current electorate learned nothing from the election in 2000 - because they are too young.

BTW The country was also changed forever in 1980. So history repeats itself: first as tragedy, then as farce.

[LostinRed]

78. It sickens me

I hate it too. Especially, when we have the Supreme Court taken over by right wing thugs.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

83. and, and and!

She wouldn't be tweeting either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MFM008]

84. all those subversive recipies

.........................

[Separation]

95. You are absolutely correct

Its a lesson that wont be soon forgot by a lot of people.



Oh, who am I kidding...what were we talking about again?

After edit: I forgot sarcasm does not transfer well without voice inflection. 😉

[Trumpocalypse]

115. Lol

[LiberalFighter]

97. If Jesus had run for President they still would not had been happy.

They probably would say Satan was a better choice.

[Cha]

98. Those "purity" people were/are brainwashed to the max

by Liars like Jill Stein and the other RF susan Sarandon. And, others.

Some refuse to be deprogrammed. We've all seen them.

Mahalo, Trumpocalypse

[lunamagica]

108. Those purist are like a plague which invades every four years and help the GOP

Hillary would have been a wonderful president, same with Al Gore.

It's a tragedy for America that we got Bush and trump instead of them

[R B Garr]

124. ++, and Bill C left Gore a surplus, thereby beating the GOP

at their own smear games against Democrats. Hillary fought for Universal Health care 25 years ago when it was actually politically risky to stick your neck out. Bill C picked a climate change expert —Al Gore—25 years ago when it was an actual political risk. True progressives actively working, not just speeches. It is a true tragedy what we got instead—Bush’s war and Trump’s mafia.

[betsuni]

147. Speaking of Bill Clinton beating the Republicans at their own game:

Even though they had majorities in both houses of Congress, The Republicans' Contract with America failed because people balked at giving up Social Security and Medicare, public schools and government-backed air, water, and earth protections; Republicans shutting down the government was unpopular; and "As important, Bill Clinton's legendary ability to 'triangulate' -- taking on as his own some of the goals they proposed while drawing the line against such extreme measures as a balanced budget amendment -- took the steam out of the House GOP's sails. To be repeatedly outwitted by Clinton, a president the radical right had spent much effort and untold treasure trying to undermine, made the sting of defeat all the more sharp." (from "Democracy in Chains" by Nancy MacLean)

All the whining about Bill Clinton, it's politics! Duh. Republicans are radical nuts who want to turn the U.S. into a hellhole.

[JHan]

149. bill also made good use of the line-item veto which is now unconstitutional I think.

[R B Garr]

175. Great post. Bill C was willing to risk some of his

popularity to achieve those financial goals. Say no to some things up front to achieve the surplus which would have gone to Gore’s presidency. Twenty years ago now. It is so sickening what was thrown away.

[True Blue American]

202. I remember Gingrich saying," When

He walked out of the Oval Office thinking he had won, only to find out Clinton had!”

[betsuni]

113. People said that because they heard it somewhere and don't think for themselves.

A small child or animal can instantly tell the difference between a nasty crazy person and a normal one. Takes adults to be that fucking stupid.

[Cha]

118. Excellent point, betsuni!

[David__77]

114. A winning coalition may include those who vote for "lesser evil."

The key is to win, I think.

[icaria]

132. Bingo - coalition building is key

We have to form coalitions to win elections. Coalition building in the US system is so so painful.

A synonym for "lesser evil" might be "coalition partner". I guess it's less insulting.

[lancelyons]

123. Hillary is almost none of what he right wing and media pushed.

The more liberal media had to join with the right wing media in their constant attacks on the Clintons and Hillary in the last 10 years. This attack on the Clintons goes back to the days as first lady of Arkansas where the country club ladies thought Hillary was shockingly modern in her attire and approach compared to the "proper" country club ladies. THey have been digging dirt on the Clintons ever since.

[honest.abe]

130. Thank you for posting this.

That also makes me ill whenever I hear that. Hillary was a lifetime public servant and never ever committed anything close to being called evil. Trump on the other hand is basically a mob boss with a lifetime of evil actions.

[czarjak]

143. But...

All those murders though?

[JHan]

151. ..

[pansypoo53219]

135. its sane vs moron asshole. but i guess he has hairy balls........

[Perseus]

137. You are correct but...

It is a good argument when you are talking to someone who voted for the man-child and is sorry he/she did that.

The reason I say this is because now that they are on the correct side, they admit they are sorry to have voted for the man-child, that they are going to vote to unseat all crooks in the republican party, the least you can do is minimize their pain, and believe it or not, it works.

They need to hear that they were not 100% wrong and the "lesser of two evils" kind of soothes the pain. Maybe some day, or in their hearts, they understand that Hillary was actually a great candidate, that Putin and the rest would be eating their pants if Hillary were the President.

In a just World, the man-child, Pence, McConnell, Ryan, etc. would be removed from office, and Hillary would take what she won, the Presidency, but unfortunately, that is not going to happen and the best we can do is keep those who have remorse on our side.

[Trumpocalypse]

141. This is not about people who voted for Trump

but alleged liberals who didn’t vote because Clinton wasn’t pure enough for them.

[Marrah_Goodman]

160. That is not what lesser of two evils means

it means people who voted for Hillary not because they were thrilled to do so, but rather because Trump was so bad. You are insulting those of us who DID vote for her.

[Trumpocalypse]

161. Not trying to insult you.

But point is Clinton is not and was never evil. It is an insult to her to use that term.

[betsuni]

163. The idiom means a choice between two evil things. It was used incorrectly.

The lesser of two evils is a choice between Trump or Ted Cruz. Hitler or Stalin. Two evil things.

Why was Hillary evil? No one can say. It was all propaganda. It would be like someone becoming impatient with a young person for not being able to learn something new and saying, Well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[Perseus]

173. It was all propaganda, you are correct

but when you talk to people who voted for trump, which was my original point, they do believe that Hillary was evil, that is something you cannot debate with them, most of them are very close minded, and my point is that if they now realize they made a mistake and they now think that Hillary was in fact "the lesser of two evils" and they will be voting for democrats to oust the real evil SOBs, then let them think what they want, they are now on the right side and it does make them feel better to think they were not 100% wrong, at this point that is not as important as they contributing to get rid of the filth we have in government today.

I really feel that it should not be an issue at DU, I have to believe that 99.99% of people here know the truth, one that Hillary was not the lesser of two evils, and two, that Hillary is no evil, and actually there is a three, that she would have been a great President.

[world wide wally]

138. "The lesser of two evils" is code for,

"I'm too fucking stupid to figure anything out"

[Mr.Bill]

139. A real journalist would have asked immediately

What was evil about Hillary Clinton?

[George II]

140. Why doesn't Chris Hayes just stop the charade and register as a republican?

[czarjak]

142. A rigged election gives them an out...

[muntrv]

144. Just like Al Gore was not the lesser of 2 evils in 2000.

[Trumpocalypse]

145. True

It is amazing to me that people are still defending Nader and his supporters.

[Wolf Frankula]

146. It's been going on since 1980

Last edited Sun Sep 16, 2018, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Remember John Anderson, a man so liberal he wanted to make the US officially a Christian nation. Purity Ponies voted for him to 'feel good about themselves.' Reagan was dumb and Carter was 'tacky'. I heard it from their own mouths.

Wolf

[drmeow]

158. Hillary is imperfect but basically good

Trump is imperfect and always to the core and bone marrow evil.

And Bernie isn't even as far left as I am.

[Trumpocalypse]

167. Bill Maher said

Some on the left need to realize the difference between an imperfect friend and a deadly enemy.

[betsuni]

171. Nobody ever said she was perfect.

[ehrnst]

164. k&R

[Nitram]

168. Hilary was never evil. A well-financed right wing smear campaign that has been going for decades

has persuaded even many liberals (particularly millennials) that she is a is a dreaded "neo-liberal" for whom corporate ties, money and power are paramount. That was never true. Clinton's heart has always been in the right place in support of the vulnerable, the weak, and the disenfranchised. But if you grew up hearing only negative attacks on her, it would not be surprising if you thought otherwise.

[el_bryanto]

169. I wonder how many of those who refused to vote for the lesser of two evils were in competitive

districts . . . probably not very many right?

I am in a competitive district and voted for Clinton even though I don't agree with her position on economic issues (particularly with regulating the bonds market). But if I lived in California or another solidly blue state I might have felt different.

Bryant

[Trumpocalypse]

170. Well enough in

Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to elect Trump.

[UCmeNdc]

172. They bought into the GOP lie! Hillary is 10 times better for the average American than Donald Trump.

Just look at the Judicial picks as the major example of why she was 10x better than Trump to vote for.

[Blue_Tires]

174. +1000

[Frequency Kenneth]

179. New Rule: The Lesser of Two Evils Real Time with Bill Maher

From the spring of last year...

[StevieM]

189. Welcome to DU!! (eom)

[Frequency Kenneth]

191. Thank you, StevieM

Sincerely,
Ken Q!

[betsuni]

193. Thank you for posting that!

[Frances]

181. 1st time I heard people

say they would not vote for the lesser of two evils was when Ronald Reagan ran against Jerry Brown’s father for governor of CA
I heard again when Gore ran against George W
Some purist voters don’t seem to care how much damage their purity causes others, especially those who are vulnerable

[CrispyQ]

204. Even is she was the lesser of two evils, why wouldn't you vote for that

over the greater of two evils? I voted for the adult.

[BlueMTexpat]

205. That they are STILL spreading

this merde de taureau shows that they have not learned anything ... and most probably never will.

I, for one, am sick of them. Every. Single. One.

[blue-wave]

206. Thanks for posting

And that list can go on and on.

[joet67]

211. While I agren, the past is the past. We need to talk about 2018 and beyond. r

[betsuni]

212. It is about future elections.

If people couldn't tell the difference between the Democratic candidate and the Republican in the last election, they won't in the next.