An uncomfortable number of people here missing the point of #metoo and people like Al Franken

[realmirage]

Last edited Tue Sep 18, 2018, 09:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Michelle Goldberg of the NYT did a pretty good article about this. She's using Maher as an example, but I've been seeing the same sort of argument used all over DU. The same trend seems to be in effect for Louis ck as well as was evident in a recent thread about him.

Goldberg:

"I am not unsympathetic to those who want to begin the fraught conversation about how these men — and, now, a couple of women — might redeem themselves and re-enter public life. Before we do that, though, we should clarify a few things. It’s one thing to say that people who have harmed others, and feel remorse, deserve an opportunity to make amends, and shouldn’t be pariahs forever. Most people shouldn’t be defined by the worst thing they’ve ever done.

There’s a difference, however, between arguing that someone merits a second chance, and insisting that he didn’t do anything all that wrong in the first place, that his accusers are exaggerating, or that his humiliation makes him the real victim.

Maybe this distinction seems obvious, but recently I’ve seen it elided again and again. Last Friday, I flew to Los Angeles to appear on “Real Time With Bill Maher.” Maher’s closing monologue was a call for Al Franken, who resigned from the Senate in January amid allegations of groping, to return to politics. It’s fair to argue that the things Franken was accused of — pretending to molest a sleeping woman while posing for a photograph, grabbing other women’s butts — aren’t irredeemable sins, and that he shouldn’t be permanently banished from politics.

Instead, Maher disparaged the credibility of the women who spoke out against Franken, and mocked their complaints. “You know, when you’re a politician, being touchy-feely is kind of part of the job,” he said. (At one point I interrupted him, which you’re not supposed to do in that segment; it was awkward.)"


....snip

"maybe they’d find it easier to resurrect their careers if it seemed like they’d reflected on why women are so furious in the first place"


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/opinion/columnists/metoo-movement-franken-hockenberry-macdonald.html

[manor321]

1. Due process

Franken wasn't given the opportunity of ANY PROCESS WHATSOEVER.

Why does this need repeating?

[realmirage]

3. Are you willing to say the same

for every person caught in the metoo movement that has yet to go to trial? What about people who the statute of limitations has run out on? Without Andrea Constandt Bill Cosby would be in no danger of prosecution. Should those people also be left alone?

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. Al Franken doesn't even know who half his accusers are

Is that any kind of "justice"?

Zero tolerance makes zero sense. Learn how to adjudicate measured responses that fits the allegation.

[realmirage]

99. The man quit. What does that tell you?

I don't know about you, but I would NEVER quit, which basically looks like admission, in response to something like a sexual offense accusation. But he did. Think about that. He quit before it could be "adjudicated." Actually, he adjudicated himself. Again - think about it.

[Drahthaardogs]

106. He quit because his own party demanded he do it.

And rather than create infighting, he acquiesced.

Furthermore, the person who first demanded he quit may have done so for political aspirations.

[wellst0nev0ter]

112. You would never quit a job

Where most of the coworkers are against you and are intent on "moving you on" for no good reason?

Unless you're a total masochist, YOU think about it.

[Trumpocalypse]

69. What due process?

[CentralMass]

2. That was Mahers problem. He is a shock jock who offends on a regular basis.

[realmirage]

4. Not just Maher, seeing it here a lot too

[Ms. Toad]

28. Shh...

You're not supposed to notice that. It's out of sync with the party line.

[CentralMass]

39. The majority here call for nothing less than due process.

However the situation is very different from accusations of attempted rape.

Frankens coworkers from his years at SNL all defended him. as did the female members of his Senate staff, as did his wife.

Franken was a professional comedian.
He was on a USO tour (known for bawdy humour) and was in the presence of other people when the photo was taken. Yes, it doesn't excuse it but it does describe the environment in which it happened.

However, he was a stand up guy from the start on it all and did not question the motivation of or deride any women accusing him.

Please point out any posters here who are deriding anyone involve in Al Frankens situation

[wellst0nev0ter]

46. Three of the accusers are lying trumpanzees

Four are anonymous, and one is Tina Dupuy, who doesn't like people holding her at the waist during photo ops.

(not directed at you CentralMass) Just because you see a big headline number doesn't make every allegation true and vetted.

[CentralMass]

49. I understand, howver a hearing where all parties could testify would have likely revealed the truth

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. Yes, let him have a chance to face his accusers directly

Especially the anons. The sixth amendment says the accused has the right to face his accusers, so why doesn't it apply to Franken, besides the allegations NOT being part of a criminal case?

[PoliticAverse]

78. Because the allegations weren't part of a criminal case.

Also Franken resigned.

[wellst0nev0ter]

111. They weren't part of a criminal case

Because the accusers would have to testify under oath, ehh?

And you know why Franken resigned, because people like you piled on a good man.

[PoliticAverse]

124. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't think he should have resigned.

Take your complaint to the 32 senators that called on him to resign...
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/al-franken-democratic-senators-resign/index.html

[wellst0nev0ter]

131. Yes, he resigned

So people like you and the spineless dems can feel better about it

[Trumpocalypse]

70. What Due Process do you mean?

[wasupaloopa]

5. It really pisses me off when someone supports

their point of view by telling people who disagree with them that those people are missing a point.

No we are not missing a point.

We want justice for Franken. He was convicted with out a hearing!

I know you are not missing that point

[realmirage]

8. Imagine how much it pisses people off who

have been the victims of unwanted groping and sexual harassment to hear others minimize their feelings to satisfy their own goals

[wasupaloopa]

41. So now you are convicting him again with your post

And you are accusing me of being insensitive.

Both without any type of hearing

I don’t see how a position like that gets any credibility.

[kcr]

51. Imagine how it pisses people off who HAVE been victims

to see #metoo being used in bad faith by the right wing. You don't speak for everyone, realmirage.

[realmirage]

76. Odd that you are so eager

to dismiss the accusers outright. Quite odd.

[ChubbyStar]

113. Odd is it?

[PatSeg]

90. Exactly

I have been on the receiving end of unwanted advances and inappropriate behavior, but I would never assume that every woman who makes such claims is telling the truth anymore than I would believe every man who claimed he was innocent.

"Dirty Trickster" Roger Stone saw an opportunity with the #metoo movement and we should not be surprised. There are those in the political realm who will use any means necessary to achieve a certain objective.

Believing every woman who claims she was a victim without due process undermines and weakens the #metoo movement, which is exactly what republicans would like to see. So we end up going backwards instead of forward.

[hlthe2b]

6. I don't think those who defend Franken are missing a damned thing.

This was an ugly and irresponsible use of #METOO to drive out a prominent Senator on the sketchiest of accusations with no due process whatsoever. Those exploiting the situation relied on the fact that Franken was not a narcissistic, sociopath, but rather a man with integrity who did not want to embarrass the party, his family, or the people of Minnesota with a drawn out investigative process and thus readily responded to the demands that he resign from those in his party who believed it would somehow render the party immunized. Those who led the charge readily admitted they did not believe they needed to see a difference between the severity, magnitude, nor credibility of the accusers charges for these situations and were content to lump the mild with the most abhorrent and severe.

In the end, it hurt the #METOO movement and for that there are quite a few of our own, I will NOT forget nor forgive sans some admission that they had "learned" from this travesty.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

7. Hear, hear!

[realmirage]

10. The accusations weren't sketchy

and no one is saying Franken should disappear forever. But going after the accusers so viciously is definitely missing the whole point.

[hlthe2b]

11. Bullshit AND, I am not, have not gone after the accusers.. so that is MORE Bullshit.

[realmirage]

16. your own words:

"ugly and irresponsible use of #METOO"

"sketchiest of accusations"

"it hurt the #METOO movement and for that there are quite a few of our own, I will NOT forget nor forgive"

[hlthe2b]

17. The accusations were not investigated, were anonymous, were sketchy, given no due process.

It is YOUR comprehension that is in question as my second sentence refers NOT to the accusers. Obviously.

Thus, more BULLSHIT.

[realmirage]

21. So you're willing to give the same benefit of the doubt

to every person caught up in the metoo movement that has yet to go to trial?

[hlthe2b]

22. You really don't get it at all. I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse so as to annoy

but, that is my impression. So, move along.

[realmirage]

25. You seem quite angry from the get go.

If having someone calmly present you with reasonable points makes you this upset, maybe it's best if you did move along.

[hlthe2b]

27. Your original Post subject line was offensive and rude. When you start out that way...

[realmirage]

30. It wasn't aimed at you

But you thought it was? If you've been fair minded about listening to people who have been victims, I don't think the title would be at all offensive.

[ChubbyStar]

114. There has been offensive in this thread

Just saying.

[Trumpocalypse]

72. I think you're confused about due process

Franken asked for an ethics investigation. All that would have been a determination if Franken had violated congressional ethics rules. It is not a finding of guilt or innocence and none of Franken's accusers would need to testify.

[hlthe2b]

81. None of us is confused.. Your constant rehash is ridiculous. No, it was not in court, but it is

still the Senate equivalent of "due process" that Franken did NOT receive.

So. Just stop.

[Trumpocalypse]

87. No the "due process" argument is ridiculous.

A full ethics investigation in the Senate would not have exonerated Franken of the allegations. Bringing up "due process" is a straw man argument. So just stop.

[hlthe2b]

89. We ALL have

Your number by now. Not working anymore.

[Trumpocalypse]

91. What does that mean?

My number?

I'm just stating the truth and correcting an inaccurate talking point.

[ChubbyStar]

115. Of course you are

Always right.....

[Trumpocalypse]

118. Never said I was

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Is anything I posted factual incorrect? If so, please point it out.

[ChubbyStar]

119. You are hilarious

And that would be factually incorrect, not factual.

[Trumpocalypse]

121. Why don't we discuss the issue.

An ethics investigation does not determine guilt or innocence. If that is not factual correct, please feel free to point out how it isn’t.

[tonedevil]

122. Is your point that...

guilt or innocence is only determined in a court of law? I'm pretty sure an ethics investigation would look into the veracity of the accusations. Then if the accusations were found to be without merit I would think the panel would publish that and the matter would be closed. If the accusations were found to be true then there would be some further action regarding the Senator, anywhere from censure to expulsion, and the matter would be closed. Perhaps not guilt or innocence in the same sense as a defendant in a criminal trial, but a determination none the less.

[Trumpocalypse]

123. Pretty sure?

No an ethics investigation only determines if Congressional ethics rules were broken.

[tonedevil]

127. From the FAQ for the website...

of the Senate Select Committee on Ethics (Bolding mine):
Q: What are the stages of an investigation?

A: Whenever the Committee receives a complaint, allegation, or information from virtually any source suggesting that a Senator or staffer may have violated rules within the Committee’s jurisdiction, the Committee will initiate a preliminary inquiry. Please see the Rules of Procedure for the Select Committee on Ethics for additional guidance.

At the end of the preliminary inquiry, the Committee will determine whether there is substantial credible evidence which provides substantial cause for the Committee to conclude that a violation has occurred.

If the Committee determines that there is not such evidence, the matter is dismissed. If the matter originated from a complaint, the Committee will provide notice of the dismissal to the complainant and to the subject of the complaint.

If the Committee determines that there is substantial credible evidence of a violation, but the violation is more serious, the Committee may issue either a public or private letter of admonition. If the violation is more serious, the Committee will initiate an adjudicatory review. Upon the conclusion of an adjudicatory review, the Committee can either issue a public letter of admonition or recommend that the Senate take disciplinary action, including expulsion, censure, or payment of restitution by a Member.

[Trumpocalypse]

130. That is still not a determination of guilt or innocence

You should look up the definition of credible evidence. Credible evidence is all that is needed for an indictment by a grand jury. The trial in court is what determines guilt or innocence.

[tonedevil]

134. As I said from my first post here...

your point is guilt or innocence is only determined in a court of law. No one is suggesting a Senate Ethics Investigation is the same as being tried in a criminal court. In the Franken case there are no criminal charges to be brought so it is a moot point.
My description, of which I remain pretty sure despite your attempt to shame me, matches closely to what the Senate Select Committee on Ethics says they do. Your answer in post 123 is so absurd as to be hilarious. Of course they determine if Senate Ethics rules were broken it's quite obvious from the name. The question is what method do they use to come to a determination about those rules? Do you think they might investigate if certain accusations are credible? Do you suppose there might be some form of communication that comes from the Committee to announce their determination? Is it possible that a finding by the committee that the accusations against a certain Senator were not credible might allow that Senator to return to their lawmaking duties with a cloud lifted?

[Trumpocalypse]

135. Never once said that

guilt or innocence can only be determined by a court of law. Please don’t put words in my mouth

As you’re previous post pointed out, an ethics committee investigation only determines if there is credible evidence if Congressional ethics have been violated. Credible evidence is a much lower bar it is not a determination of guilt or innocence. You only need credible evidence for an indictment. Unless you’re claiming everything ever indicated was guilty.

[wellst0nev0ter]

50. Let's review the allegations

Three named accusers are lying, two-faced trumpanzees who voted for a known pussygrabber, but all of a sudden "remembered" that Franken groped them.

Leann Tweeden had that infamous picture to back up her song and dance, but if you scratch the surface a little, you'll find out she committed arguably worse acts on the USO tours, which would explain why Tweeden was quick to accept Franken's apology and not press the issue. Franken has apologized for the photo, but he denies the more serious charges.

The claims made by Lindsay Menz and Stephanie Kemplin were never corroborated by any witnesses at BOTH public events. Not by the photographers, nobody. Menz husband who took the photo didn't see any groping, he only says he only learned of it later.

There are four anonymous accusers, and you can't tell me if they aren't the same individual feeding different outlets bullshit.

The last accuser, Tina Dupuy, is most credible and at the same time the most baffling. She basically gives a dramatic account of Al Franken holding her on the waist during a photo shoot -- that's it.

If she is uncomfortable over that level of touching, she had better make herself clear from the get-go because adults engage in "worse" intimate behavior with strangers without any problems. It is also maddening that Tina's allegation was the one that forced Franken out.

[Bettie]

63. I'm still really confused about the

whole "he touched my waist" thing....it is just weird and not something that anyone would think was inappropriate in a photo.

I figured she just doesn't like him for some reason and used an opportunity to do real harm to him.

The whole thing was a hatchet job.

And we kept being told "it will give us the moral high ground in the future". Wonder when that's going to do us a bit of good.

[wellst0nev0ter]

65. At least it got Doug Jones elected

Maybe. I'm not sure.

But at least Doug Jones will vote against Kavanaugh


Maybe. I'm not sure.

[yardwork]

66. Excellent post.

[OnDoutside]

104. Fantastic post. Shocking hatred of Al by some on this thread.

[brush]

85. The accusations were sketchy. You must not have been paying attention,

Tweeden, the first accuser presented a gag photo as evidence that Franken groped her. It was quickly shown that Franken, then a comedian on a USO tour with her, was hamming it up for the camera and not really touching her.

I mean, come on, who would grope someone in front of a photographer and several witnesses?

And on that same tour Tweeden herself is photographer groping the ass of a guitar player on stage no less in front of thousands of witnesses. So yeah, that allegations was nothing but sketchy.

Shall I go on, because I can?

[Separation]

126. Hatchet job from the word go.

[Autumn]

13. Agree 100%

It was a set up.

[ProudLib72]

24. X 10000000

[mountain grammy]

40. Exactly! Thank you.

[BannonsLiver]

48. Well said!

[spooky3]

54. +1 And, why have there been no more accusers since he left the Senate? nt

[mythology]

59. Matt Lauer, Bill O'Reilly, Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Donald Trump, Roy Moore

When was the last time you heard of a new accuser of any of them? Do you think they were all set up too?

[spooky3]

60. Those cases are entirely different from Franken's, and you know it. Nt

[brush]

86. What are you talking about? Plenty of women kept coming forward against them.

And were talking about women who were sexually assaulted, not just having their muffin top side fat touched when taking a photo.

[joshcryer]

61. "a man with integrity"

Well said.

[leftstreet]

137. +1

[Tommy_Carcetti]

9. Thing with Franken was we knew it was a set up from the very get-go.

[realmirage]

12. It wasn't the Republicans. There were real women that accused

Did you not ever read the actual full list of accusations? They are very credible.

[Demsrule86]

15. Unidentified sources are not credible and one was a GOP operative and a friend of Hannity...

It was total baloney.

[realmirage]

18. One was a GOP operative so

they must ALL be operatives, right? Did you ever read up on the full evidence and the people who accused him?

[Demsrule86]

34. There was no evidence...only the GOP operative ...Hannity's buddy and the facebook Trumper and

anonymous ' accusers' whom I discount.

[Demsrule86]

44. Yes I did...and find none credible.

[Ms. Toad]

29. Like Dr. Ford is a Democratic Operative?

It has to work both ways, or not at all.

[realmirage]

32. Voice of reason

Exactly Ms. Toad.

[Demsrule86]

35. Not true...one could be true... and one not true.

She is not a Democratic operative. You can compare Kavanaugh to Trump but not Franken...the if the GOP does it than when our guy does it, must be true is simply not accurate.

[Ms. Toad]

38. How do you know?

On what basis did you make that determination about one of Franken's accusers? I have never seen any support for the accusations that she is a political hack - other than we like Franken and cannot imagine him doing anything like that, so she must be a political operative.

The same must be true when the shoe is on the other foot.

The response to women making accusations that men abused them must not be based on party affiliation, as it was not only initially - but is until this very day done with with Franken.

The other Franken accusers, at least half of which were not anonymous (and some of those not publicly known were know to reporters - as Dr. Ford was until yesterday) are routinely and inappropriately (even, if it had been true) discounted as anonymous.

The credibility of women making accusations cannot be based on allegations that they are (1) anonymous (the same basis Republicans were using until Sunday for Dr. Ford), or (2) lacking in credibility because of political affiliation (there are no political boundaries for assaulting women), or (3) lacking in credibility because of past behavior (even hookers get raped).

[Demsrule86]

43. One was friends with Hannity...the facebook one was completely not credible in my opinion and

the rest were anonymous...this one has put her name out there....I find no credible accusations against Franken. That is my opinion. Name all the accusers because they were anonymous but for what three?...and my fave was the woman who claimed Franken looked at her the wrong way.

[BannonsLiver]

57. You'll never make any headway

You’re debating people who see no difference between Weinstein, or Ted Bundy, for that matter, and Al Franken. God bless ya for trying but it’s a lost cause.

[Ms. Toad]

58. Only two of 8 were anonymous.

Four were identified by name, two more were known to the reporters and identified by job description. That does not include anyone accusing Franken of looking at her the wrong way.

As to being friends with Hannity - You'd better not take a gander through my FB friends. I have quite a few right wing nut jobs. Most of them are relatives, some are students, some are related by common disease. Who you are friends with on facebook is a meaningless criteria.

Are you willing to judge Dr. Ford by the same standards? Her politics seem to be as far left as the first accuser of Franken was far right.

As for credibility - I found especialy the ones about rear-end grabbing particularly credible. I've experienced pretty much the same thing - in just as public a place - from someone who sincerely believed that the guesture would be welcome (based on my later conversations with him). Like the women who accused Franken - I said nothing at the time - and I probably would never have said anything to anyone other than my spouse and the pastoral care body of the organzation we both belonged to - until he was named to be part of that body at least 2 years later and it became necessary to object to his appropriateness for membership on that particular committee.

Even people you high esteem can engage in sexually inappropriate behavior, and I find it offensive that under very similar circumstances people on DU immediately believe Dr. Ford, a single accuser, without recognizing the hipocrisy of how - under similarly political circumstances - they immediately rejected every one of at least half a dozen accusers of Franken.

[wellst0nev0ter]

67. If Franken doesn't know who the accusers are

They are anonymous. Don't redefine words to fit your argument.

[Ms. Toad]

92. By your definition, half were not anonymous.

A far cry from all of them being anonymous, except for a Republican operative, the standard line around here.

Did you have such high standards for deep throat, or other individuals who have spoken out against Republicans - and who were known to reporters, but whose identities were kept secret from the public (and those accused)?

We're you as vocal in calling Ford's allegations not credible prior to Sunday, when she disclosed her identity as you have been in declaring those similarly situated as to Franken not credible?

Apply whatever standards you want to anonymous report. My point is that quite a few here are not applying the same standards without regard to party affiliation of the target of the accusations. As someone who is a survivor of rape, and far too many more minor sexual abuses, I find that double standard very offensive.

[Demsrule86]

108. Sorry...I don't buy people grope others with a camera pointed at them...

but think what you will.

[brooklynite]

71. Before Dr. Ford revealed her name, did you discount her allegation against Kavanaugh?

[JonLP24]

125. She is also a model

I remember from the Best Damn Sports Show Period and she was pro war I didn't like her which means I would never want to have a relationship with her which her politics didn't seem to matter Franken who possibly was attracted to someone who was just a model at the time. The pro war stuff is why I didn't like her and this was a long time ago.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. The only thing that was credible was the photo.

For which Franken apologized.

The rest was either rather dubious or innocent behavior passed off as being scandalous.

Not all allegations are the same, nor should they be treated the same.

Harvey Weinstein raised millions for Democrats, and yet you didn't see Democrats come rushing to his defense simply for that fact. Because the accusations were serious and believable.

Michelle Goldberg has also claimed we should take Juanita Broaddrick seriously. Do you agree?

[realmirage]

23. You sure do seem eager to dismiss

every accuser. Did you read all the accusations? All of them? I did. Al Franken isn't so chivalrous to go down for something he didn't do. He resigned for a reason. That doesn't mean he should get a life sentence or anything, but it sure doesn't mean he's totally innocent.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. Franken's Democratic colleagues panicked during the Alabama senate race.

The accusations being leveled him were becoming a "whatabout" distraction for Republicans to pick up on and minimize Roy Moore's behavior. The loss of confidence in Franken became a distraction that became impossible to ignore. But I think while well-intentioned, his colleagues probably overreacted and should have let the internal investigation play out.

[realmirage]

31. Do you really think Al Franken would resign over a sexual offense if he was totally innocent?

Just to appease his party? That seems a bit conspiracy theory to me

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Yes. If he was told that he was a distraction by party leadership...

....I believe he would.

Michelle Goldberg also thinks we should consider believing Juanita Broaddrick. Do you agree with her there?

[DFW]

74. He didn't resign over a sexual offense.

He didn't even resign over the phony accusations of sexual offense.

He resigned because 33 of his Democratic colleagues jumped the gun and urged him to resign despite there being no concrete evidence he committed any act of sexual harassment, and the Democratic governor of Minnesota had already announced his successor.

THAT is when and why he resigned. The reason he didn't respond more forcefully at first is because he knew there was no substance to the allegations, and expected his Democratic colleagues to have both the smarts to realize that, and the guts to stand up to the Republican scheme. He was blindsided by their arrogance, their ignorance and their ambition. He thought he was in better company (so did I).

[ChubbyStar]

117. Amen

Thank you.

[DFW]

132. No need to

Pure coincidence (or maybe not, Washington being a small town in many respects), but one of my friends happens to be one of Al Franken's best friends.* It's a FAR better source than picking and choosing from internet posts.

*A while back, I was nastily asked if my friend had a name. Yes, my friend does have a name, and no, don't bother asking me who it is. No name, no link, and no caring on my part if you want to disbelieve every word of what I just posted. Be my guest.

[Trumpocalypse]

73. Not just that

Many women's group were outraged about Franken and were complaining behind the scenes.

[Demsrule86]

37. It is over...I think Franken should have fought but I thnk he did do it for the party...

we will never know ,but I found none of the 'victims' credible...a Hannity buddy and GOP operate, two face book Trumpers and anonymous sources which I discount.

[wellst0nev0ter]

55. No, you did NOT review all the allegations

You know that three accusers are lying trumpanzees

Four are worthless anonymous charges without any names

And one is basically Tina Dupuy saying this:

[realmirage]

101. Here, I did your research for you.

Your anger and aggression toward innocent accusers is really disturbing

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

[wellst0nev0ter]

110. You skipped these parts

Kemplin, who now works as a federal contractor investigating Medicare fraud, is a registered Republican and said she voted for President Donald Trump in the 2016 election.

And...

Lindsay Menz is now a stay-at-home-mom of three young kids. Neither is registered with a political party and she said she has equally supported Republican and Democratic candidates while he said he has tended to favor Republicans. The couple voted last year for Donald Trump, and Menz said she has voted for Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, who is a Democrat, in the past. Menz said she believes she has voted for Franken as well, but is not sure.

The election happened after the pussygrabber tape came out, didn't it? And yet both of these people voted for the orange pussygrabber, then turned around to drive Franken out of politics?

When it comes to filthy, scum-of-the-earth trumpanzees, the burden of truth falls upon them, not the other way around. Franken should have had a chance to directly confront and and challenge their allegations. The way you and people like you take every repuke accusation at face value is why Democrats keep losing (see ACORN.)

[ProfessorGAC]

56. Tommy Did No Such Thing

You should self delete this whole combative, unproductive, and divisive thread!

[Bengus81]

82. Yet they ALL dissappeared AFTER he resigned..........

In other words...MISSION ACCOMPLISHED eh?? Yeah...even the last accuser with the picture of HER with HER arm around Franken for a photo. Yes...she was sooooo sickened by Franken she wanted another pic this time GROPING him.

[Bengus81]

83. He resigned becuse this bunch threw him under the bus......

When he was one of their/OUR STRONGEST fighters for Democratic causes.

[Demsrule86]

36. The photo was a joke...from what I remember.

[BannonsLiver]

47. Well some of us did

Others fell for it hook line and sinker, like the OP.

[Oneironaut]

14. Maher is a bigot and misogynist ass.

He treats female guests on his show abysmally. His show is good, but I’ve never liked him as a person. His dismissive attitude is not a shock.

[realmirage]

19. You nailed it.

Like his show, think he's shit as a person, and is clearly a misogynist.

[Bradshaw3]

42. So you obviously have a vendetta against Maher

Which makes the rest of your argment here dubious. And this supposedly shitty person just gave $1M to elect Democrats and pushes equal rights for women along with having many women of different viewpoints on his show. So that charge is false.

How about you? Have you contributed or worked for Democrats? Your post here is divisive, as these threads on Franken always are and your reponses to those who disagree show.

There are degrees in the metoo movement - not every charge is as valid as the other. But since you view Maher as an evil person, I don't think you are going to get that kind of nuance.

[realmirage]

77. Pointing out the truth calmly

does not = vendetta.

[Bradshaw3]

96. No that isn't what you are doing

Your own words such as calling him a shit isn't teling the truth calmly. Your own words reveal your biases.

Instead you attack one of the best voices Dems had in the senate, one of the best voices they have among celebrities (who puts his money where his mouth is while you of course ignore my question about your contributions to Democrats) and you resort to telling those who disagree on this thread that they are being emotional and attack many DUers in the OP. Why? Because you say they are making you uncomfortable for having a different (and a much more nuanced and truthful point of view on Franken than you). All while using one of the leaders of the Franken lynch mob in Goldberg as some kind of validator.

So one great Democratic voice has been chased into oblivion and you would like to silence another. That is a vendetta and one that is divisive.

[realmirage]

98. I can use the word shit calmly.

Not sure about you, but I can and do.

[Bradshaw3]

141. Still ignoring all the points and questions

Which just goes to show you don't have a leg to stand on.

[OnDoutside]

109. +1

[Eliot Rosewater]

53. She was told "this is not your place" when she interrupted

Jesus Bill, ffs, any idea how that SOUNDED?

As to Franken, I dont think he grabbed any butts, at all. But the way Maher defended it made no sense either.

[Adrahil]

116. +1 NT

[wellst0nev0ter]

120. She interrupted him during his monologue

Whatever you may think of Maher, he has a right to moderate his show.

[phleshdef]

138. During New Rules, you don't interrupt. Everyone knows that.

[Eliot Rosewater]

139. Not the point, it is the way he did it and she has commented on it also.

Saying "not your place" was the WORST choice of words imaginable.

IN the CONTEXT of the subject matter, for krist sake

[phleshdef]

140. She isn't the first nor will she be the last to be shut down...

...in a rude way when interrupting New Rules.

[IluvPitties]

62. Al's situation should not have been handled the way it was handled.

[mythology]

64. They aren't missing the point, they just can't acknowledge it

Because they would have to admit the world is complicated and people aren't saints. It's hard to come to grips with the fact that the world isn't black and white, pure good and pure evil. It's human nature though. We suck at seeing subtlety and nuance.

Look at the responses in the thread. How many are saying oh some of the accusers were Trump supporters so they were obviously lying? And the anonymous ones must be lying too because they are anonymous, completely ignoring that the ones who came forward were attacked and dismissed. As if it's not possible to look at how reprehensibly victims are treated. There's a reason that victims of sexual assault are regularly not named by the press. But because Franken was elevated to hero status, he must be innocent.

John Lennon beat women and mocked disabled people but sang about peace and love. Lyndon Johnson called Martin Luther King Jr a "hypocrite preacher", but he also got the Civil and Voting Rights Acts passed. In 1940, Gandhi declared Hitler to not be as bad as depicted, but was a non-violent leader. Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence declaring all men are created equal, but owned and raped slaves. Woodrow Wilson started to predecessor to the United Nations but was a virulent racist. Beloved children's book author Roald Dahl claimed Hitler didn't pick on the Jews for no reason (and that reason wasn't because Hitler was a racist bigot in Dahl's mind). Henry Ford, father of modern industry, anti-Semite.

People are almost never 100% good or evil. We all screw up, we all have our flaws.

[wellst0nev0ter]

68. Tell that to the people

who wanted Franken moved on for holding a waist at a photo shoot and for taking a stupid photo.

[realmirage]

75. You are one of the few who gets it

A lot of these same people who want to act like Franken did nothing were equally enthusiastic about Louis ck, who obviously learned nothing and told rape whistle jokes? Interesting how people can be so blind when people they like are accused.

[betsuni]

80. This is incorrect.

[YessirAtsaFact]

84. Franken's situation is nothing like LouieCK

Franken was a victim of ratfucking starting with The photo that was clearly a joke.

Someone objects to him putting his arm around their waist taking a picture, and a number of unnamed accusers show up complaining about AL’s posing for photos with them, that he was too cuddly with them.

I don’t recall anything overtly sexual, other than the stupid photo.

The majority of his accusers were anonymous, red flag for me.

I am convinced Tweedan was in on the photo, but chose to misrepresent it for political purposes.

The whole thing was bullshit to remove an effective Democratic Senator from office.

Thanks to the ridiculous level of political correctness in Democratic Party politics, it was successful.

[NurseJackie]

88. Yes. All this and more! A perfect summary and analysis.

[realmirage]

100. You don't recall? Here, let me remind you.

The fervor with which some people here want to discredit accusers when it's people they like that are being accused is quite disturbing.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html

[MuseRider]

93. Exactly,

however all I see here in all the argument is another try from women and many men to stop this treatment of women failing. We will fail this time too because we all believe those we love, for whatever reason, are not ever guilty. Only those we hate so the entire movement gets tainted and we get another case of "get over it". I had a man tell me once to forget it. This is what we are for, we are built to take it so just relax, it isn't a crime. ***I managed to walk out of that since it was all well within a crowded place. Unwanted groping, yes ladies, that is our meaning in life and that has not changed since I experienced my first abuse as a small child from a drunk in a bowling alley.

I love Al Franken and have never been certain what all is true or not. I see him as a man who saw what was coming, fair or unfair (I think some of it was unfair and some just from the time before we ever said anything about our treatment) who left as quietly as possible to avoid fighting against something that I think he believes in now. He made some (abusive actions) mistakes, did not want to admit it or talk about it because I think he really had come to support women strongly.

Hope that makes sense.

[standingtall]

79. The accusations against Franken were spurious

Last edited Tue Sep 18, 2018, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

The first was a photo gag of him pretending to touch Tweedan which I wouldn't doubt she was in on. 2 accusers claimed he groped them them during photo-ops in front of large crowds of people yet no one has came forward as a witness to confirm the accusations. 1 was upset,because he put his arm around her waist during a photo op and rest were all anonymous.

[realmirage]

97. Spurious? No

I find it disturbing that people are so willing to discredit accusers when it's people they like that are being accused.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/politics/al-franken-groping-allegation/index.html

[standingtall]

107. I dont believe accusers on blind faith and yes surious accusations

The first link you posted was the woman who claimed Franken grab her butt during a photo op at a State fair in front of a huge crowd of people and still to this day no one has been able to confirm her claim.

The second one is also a friend of Tweedan and the photo doesn't show what she claimed and that was in public and still no one has come forward to confirm that to this day.

I find it disturbing that there are still those who would lecture us to believe accusations of sexual harassment simply, because they are made. You wouldn't treat any other type of accusation in that fashion.

Has there been some new revelations that have occurred sense Franken resigned that was going to change our minds? No it's the same old information.

[haele]

94. I and my brother understood that once someone said "no", "not that" or "not now", that was it.

One could always ask. The other party had the right to say no, not that, or not now, and that is supposed to be the answer. Apologize for the misunderstanding or imposition and go on.

You could still be friends, co-workers, or whatever - but there's always going to be personal and professional boundaries, no matter how close you are - or want to be - with someone.

It's understood that people are sexual beings as emotional or artistic or logical beings. It's understood that some people will feel attraction to others that may not be reciprocated.

But no one has the right to dominate someone else without their permission, and no one has the right to badger or manipulate another just because there's an expectation of being able to be "in control" of one's destiny - and that other person is part of some plan, whether they want to be or not.

Recognize the other person as an individual with their own interests and likes instead of an object or possession to be controlled, and everything should be fine.

It's that old and universal Golden Rule - treat others as you would want to be treated. Don't treat others in a way you would object to if they treated you like that.

Somehow, people - especially so-called "righteous people" or "important people" - keep "forgetting the Golden Rule" whenever it is in their personal benefit to do so.

Haele

[wryter2000]

95. Maher is a misogynist

I stopped watching him when he called tail hook " boys being boys" and said maybe girls were just bad at math and science.

[Crunchy Frog]

102. I'm not certain that Franken did what he was accused of doing.

If he actually was deliberately groping women, then I think resignation was the right thing, but I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that he was.

I think it's just as, or more likely, that there was a combination of genuine misinterpretation of a few women, coupled with a concerted effort by the Rs to throw out false accusations against him.

The Dems should have allowed him to go through a process to either clear his name, or gather more solid evidence of wrongdoing.

They should not have engaged in that stampede to railroad him out of the Senate before there was sufficient evidence to make a solid case.

It's not about excusing bad behavior because it wasn't really that bad, but about making sure that he had actually done something wrong in the first place.

[Doodley]

103. Franken knew that if he didn't resign, Democrats wouldn't.be able to hold Republicans

To the same standard. He did the right thing.

[Kurt V.]

129. in a nutshell.

[loyalsister]

136. Exactly

There would have been no way to credible hold Kavanaugh accountable. I wonder how long it will be before we hear Republicans cry foul based on Ford's voting history?

[MicaelS]

105. We are not missing the point...

Many think Franken was a victim of ratfucking and that is all there is to it.

[Funtatlaguy]

128. Metoo and Franken badly missed in proportionality and intent.

Frankens inappropriate behavior was just that, inappropriate.
It did not rise to the level of sexual assault or sexual harassment.
It was very crude and unfunny behavior amongst coworkers.
There was never an intent to harm or sexually benefit by Franken.
Franken is a comic that goes for jokes. Trump grabs genitals with the intent of penetrating.

[ProfessorGAC]

133. I Joined DU in 2001

This is in the running for worst thread ever.