In defence of Michael Moore...

[Fred Sanders]

Why is Moores's point that the only two parties with any political power forever and ever being at least somewhat beholden to corporate interests be controversial?

It is of course true that Republicans are very different in being openly tied to corporations and particularly Wall Street and banks and fossil fuel, etc. That they are corrupt and rotten through and through is obvious by now to the public. It is a very smart thing to make Republican corruption a top election plank.

But if Democratics do not cut the cord with corporate cash...Citizens United does not mean we have to play by a no rule rule book...how does the pubic see the difference? Bernie drew a clear line in the sand about that and was crucified from all sides because the whole thing unfortunately became tribal and the issue got buried. The S word was mentioned and all hell broke out.

Can't we have a civil discussion anymore? Is it because the discussion fuels discomfort? Isn't discomfort part of debate and discussion in search of reformation? In example, talk about the definition "white privilege" to a room full of mainly white folk who think they know what it means and you might grasp my point. I've been there.

Case in illustration...Presidential inaugurations.

Taxpayer portion of the ceremony is in the ball park of one million dollars, for security, set up, refreshments, etc...

The cost of the week long festivities rises into the tens of millions and Shitler's near 100 million!

Check out all past President's inauguration costs...it is obscene. It is a coronation event that belongs in Game of Thrones, not in a representative democracy. And the public sees no difference by party as the pageantry unfolds. Could we begin there and refuse corporate cash for that at least?

Bias, corporate bias in my example, is bad. The perception of bias is even worse. Americans may know Republicans are biased towards corporations but at least they can look a real monster in the eye and deal with it.

With perception of bias the monsters are only limited by the imagination.

Which is what Moore is trying to tell us and making us very, very uncomfortable.

.........

P.s. Have not seen the movie because no need...Moore is repeating the unlearned lesson, is all.

[theaocp]

1. A nuanced perspective ... thank you.

It's refreshing in place of the chorus of fuck MM that have been all I've been able to see lately. Cheers.

[Fred Sanders]

3. "Every veil secretly desires to be lifted, except the veil of hypocrisy."

Richard B. Garnett

[manor321]

2. Because

Because most voters don't even know that Democrats take corporate money.

And FOR FUCK SAKE, we've got NAZIS IN POWER! Why are we arguing about this stupid shit? It is 100th on the list of important issues.

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. I agree, but some are defending Moore on this board weeks before the Midterms simply because

some are attacking Moore on this Board weeks before the Midterms.

[Fred Sanders]

11. Better we simply wait until after the mid-terms!

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. Yep. And make sure that people are registered to vote! n/t

[hlthe2b]

4. I don't believe that D's or Democratic leadership should be free of criticism, but there is a time

for that...

This could NOT be the worst time to engage in "BOTH SIDERISM". I've always liked Moore, but even Susan Sarandon started out (years ago) as more a sincere progressive wanting to engage in improving the Democratic Party, rather than destroy it. How quickly she turned to a self-deluded and destructive betraying voice.

[GreenEyedLefty]

5. I will always defend Michael Moore.

He and I are from the same home town, attended the same high school (although not at the same time), went to the same church. I have known about him since he started the underground newspaper The Flint Voice in the 1970s.

He gets it. He has more insight into the minds of people, especially of the ilk who voted for Trump in the post industrial Rust Belt, than anyone else, hands down. How do I know this? Because like him, I grew up with people just like them.

I'm not going to argue about this any further. He gets it, and it doesn't matter where he lives, what he does how much money he has, and particularly what he looks like and how much he weighs. How disappointing to attack his appearance. We are better than that.

Bottom line: He tells the truth as he sees it, and he sees it pretty clearly.

What is disappointing about the threads here on DU about Moore, is that they are a crystal clear Exhibit A as to why the Democratic Party lost the election in 2016... the level of vitriol leveled against him tells me that he has struck a nerve.

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. Thank you for that perspective. n/t

[dalton99a]

8. The economic anxiety theory has been thoroughly debunked.

And his backhanded compliment about Obama being the first black president is not helping

[GreenEyedLefty]

15. Moore stated that many of the same people who voted for Obama voted for Trump.

So it wasn't racism. What is it then, if it's not economic anxiety. How about economic anger, then?

[JI7]

17. obama lost support among many whites after he said black and brown

men were treated unfairly by cops. so that is racism.

[SidDithers]

25. Whether the voters were racist or not doesn't matter...

Trump was clearly an unapologetic racist, and those voters thought Trump's racism didn't matter.

The Rude Pundit said it best:

"The line between being a bigot and voting for a bigot is so thin as to be nonexistent"

Link to tweet

Sid

[Cha]

47. I agree.. the Rude Pundit is Dead ON.. I don't care how many

try to spin that shite.

Link to tweet

Thanks Sid

[Squinch]

9. It's nice to have a home town friend, but no. His comments about why Dems lost in 16 were based

on the thoroughly debunked "economic uncertainty" reasoning. That's not what happened.

[GreenEyedLefty]

16. You're the second poster on this thread to use the phrase "thoroughly debunked"

Can you provide a source as I'm having trouble finding one.

[betsuni]

44. There are many articles if you search.

Here's one: "The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment"

http://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

[PaulX2]

56. Main Reason Racism / Second Reason Want For Economic Change

My friend believed Trump because he was gonna fix stuff. He now knows he was tricked. People do learn.

MM told us Trump was gonna win months in advanced. No one listened.

We all underestimate the stupidity of "Regular Americans". I don't. I watched Bush get re-elected after lying us into a war and ignoring dozens of direct in your face warnings before 9-11.

If Democrats threw off the corporations (cash) and represented "mostly" working and struggling Americans, while being fair to corporations, but making them pay taxes we wouldn't have Republicans.

Taking the money from Goldman Sachs DID HURT HILLARY PERIOD.

Millions understand corporate control of our government is America's worst problem. Many want to whistle past this problem, ignore the oligarch control, and think we can get people off their couches to vote for us because we are simply "better" didn't seem to work, and counting on "demographics" may be too late.


The Game Is Rigged Elizabeth Warren:
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-end-of-political-parties-us-elizabeth-warren-grassroots-progressive-2017-4

The game is rigged.

The people who fight for the poor, and struggling will win.

When is the last time you heard a politician mention "the poor"? It's always "the middle class" or "working families" or whatever. There are millions with zero hope and they can vote. Time they were heard front and center.

To hell with Goldman Sachs.

[betsuni]

58. What view, position or vote did Hillary change because of any donation or fee she received?

From Goldman Sachs or any other.

And of course you know that those who voted for the Democrat in the last election had the least amount of money.

[JI7]

59. how about the NRA ?

[JI7]

61. no, 2nd reason wasn't economic change. Trump supporters were more wealthy plus they have voted for

pro tax cut for large corporations and other wealthy type republicans for years including in 2016 .

people that voted for Trump voted for pro corporate republicans over people like Feingold.

[betsuni]

62. I have a feeling facts aren't going to matter here.

[betsuni]

64. "MM told us Trump was gonna win months in advance. No one listened."

He told us Mitt Romney was going to win. No one listened.

Talking points:

Democrats are beholden to wealthy elitist donors and ignore decent working class and poor Americans.
Hillary Clinton was controlled by Goldman Sachs because she made a speech.
OLIGARCHS!!!111
Democrats have no message except "We're better than Republicans/we're not Trump."
Republicans have rigged the game, let's blame Democrats for not stopping it.
Democrats don't fight for the poor and the struggling.
Time the angry people who don't know how government works were heard front and center/grassroots/not establishment
Goldman Sachs!!!!1111

[Fred Sanders]

69. Moore did not tell follks Trump was gonna win months in advance. Gonna need a link!

What Moore did say was that Trump could pull an inside straight, to use a metaphor - remember no one gave him much of a chance - and then he did a film showing why he thought that.

And then Trump hit the card he needed on the River...Comey...

[Gothmog]

40. Are you kidding?

This took 15 seconds to find
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

This is crucial to understanding both Trump’s rise and how to overcome Trump. As a presidential candidate, Trump made all sorts of racist comments — suggesting that Mexican immigrants are criminals and rapists, proposing a ban on all Muslims entering the US, saying a US judge should recuse himself from a case simply because of his Mexican heritage, and deploying dog whistles about “law and order.”
As president, Trump equated a group of neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists who descended onto Charlottesville, Virginia, with the anti-racism protesters who stood against bigotry. His administration has also pursued policies that will disproportionately hurt minority groups, including his travel ban, immigration restrictions, “tough on crime” policies, and potential voting restrictions.
The studies suggest that these kinds of comments and actions are not just incidental to Trump; they are at the core of his political success. If Democrats want to defeat him, they will need to overcome that racial resentment.
The latest findings are backed by many other studies
This is not a one-off finding. At this point, the evidence that Trump’s rise was driven by racism and racial resentment is fairly stacked.

See also https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2018/04/25/debunking-election-economic-anxiety-myth/BnrFb0K14C62VrPZgKDR6M/story.html and https://www.thenation.com/article/economic-anxiety-didnt-make-people-vote-trump-racism-did/

The answers can be found in the comprehensive American National Election Studies pre- and post-election survey of over 4,000 respondents, which we analyzed to explore the impact of racism and economic peril on 2016 voting behavior. The results are clear, and move a long way towards settling this debate.
l
Our analysis shows Trump accelerated a realignment in the electorate around racism, across several different measures of racial animus—and that it helped him win. By contrast, we found little evidence to suggest individual economic distress benefited Trump. The American political system is sorting so that racial progressivism and economic progressivism are aligned in the Democratic Party and racial conservatism and economic conservatism are aligned in the Republican Party.

[Squinch]

63. Did you mean to respond to me? Because we are agreeing.

[BannonsLiver]

10. Nah, some of us are just tired of the schtick

The sanctimony and the Dem bashing appeal to some, but not to others. You enjoy that, which is fine. But you shouldn’t expect others to feel the same way.

[LakeArenal]

19. With you on that. 😉

[Gothmog]

13. Moore hates the party and wants to hurt the party

I stopped caring about Moore a long time ago. Moore does not care about electing Democrats in November I will not watch this movie nor will I pay any attention to Moore’s rants

[Fiendish Thingy]

27. Is that why Moore highlights and celebrates several up and coming Democrats?

His film includes several segments on up and coming Democrats, many who are women of color.

He is sounding the alarm in an attempt to jar people out of apathy, cynicism and complacency with business as usual. The film celebrates the inspiring people who fight back against Trump fatigue to effect real change in their community and country.

But I suppose you've made your mind up already...

[Gothmog]

29. I am so happy that Moore's film had bombed at the box office

Moore hates the party. This idiot supported Nader in 2000. Despite this, I bought a copy of his Bush film. Lately Moore’s antics are designed to only appeal to non Democrats

Real Democrats are tired of Moore and are ignoring this idiot.

As for trump fatigue, Moore is the wrong messenger. Real Democrats are busy on the ground getting out the vote. Trump may help turn Texas blue ahead of schedule. The concept that we have so many seats in play in Texas is due to anger at trump. Moore’s rants will have no effect on the midterms because no one is paying attention to him

Again, I am glad that Moore’s movie bombed

[ismnotwasm]

14. Moore doesn't make me uncomfortable. He annoys me

Last edited Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

He tends to feed conspiracy theories. The way our government is set up is around two parties, the only real question is which two parties. It is possible for instance, for Democratic Socialists to become one of the major parties instead of Democrats. That doesn’t mean the Democratic Party would cease to exist, any more than The DS party is going to. That’s one thing.

I have a problem with the term “corporate” when it’s now a huge meme that people use. When memes were put forth about Hillary Clinton and her large donations coming from, oh, I don’t know Bank of something, and people would point out “”hey, it’s illegal for Bank of something to donate that amount to political campaigns, these represent donations from individuals, the reply would be “Hillary is corrupt and this meme proves it” So annoying at the time and so fucking damaging. This was in part what brought us Trump. But there are many parts to the Trump story.

Bernie was indeed pushing hard for the individual campaign donations, refusing PAC money, (as did President Obama, who started this trend started refusing a lot of PAC money in 2008, but he rarely gets credit) but Bernie also lost, and he lost legitimately, no matter what the Micheal Moore’s of the world have to say. That’s not to say that others haven’t picked up where he left off. Booker and Harris and Gillibrand, for instance, are now declining corporate PAC money. If nothing else President Obama and Bernie Sanders put their finger on a pulse of rising discontent.

So what does this mean? Are we going to quit throwing pageantry parties? Are we going to pare down the governments frivolous bullshit after the gilded turd of Trumps presidency? Don’t know. All I DO know is my reproductive rights are being threatened, hell— the reproductive rights of my three year old granddaughter are being threatened, as a woman it is still implied that I’m a slut If I get sexually assaulted, LGBLT rights are being threatened, the United States kidnapped children and caused irreparable harm, and continues to defend this, our environment will become more poisoned, job wages are stagnant, hate crimes are on the rise, racism is now openly bragged about and I cannot look toward the Republican Party for the lest vestige of love for human kind. This is sheer horror, epic horror, and every toxic bullshit comment against Democrats and especially Hillary Clinton have their part as well.

“Legit” criticism—sure. I have a Rep I adore. I didn’t expect this, but I do She’s signed the “M4A” legislation which I disagree with, although I agree with Medicaid expansion and insurance reform
With a hearty public option. None of which we are going to get by the looks of thing now. PLENTY of people disagree with me here, and I understand completely.

(FWIW I take a bit of exception to using “white privilege” discussed among whites as a negative, as whites ARE the ones who need to be discussing this among themselves.)

[LakeArenal]

20. Well said!

[betsuni]

45. +1

[Algernon Moncrieff]

18. I like Moore, but he is a propagandist, not a documentarian

Once you use that as a starting point, it's easier to evaluate his work. HE makes points far more effectively than his counterparts on the right, such as D'Souza and O'Keefe.

Roger & Me, Fahrenheit 9/11, and Capitalism, a Love Story are all brilliant works.

[peekaloo]

28. I like the term provocateur

and would add 'Sicko' to that list.



I still have not seen 'Where To Invade Next'.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

34. I like Sicko until he takes the first responders to Cuba

I got what he was trying to convey, but it came off as a stunt. He's already made thed point that pretty much every industrialized nation does healthcare better than us.

[rwsanders]

21. I praise your diplomacy. Anyone else posting anything else close to this would have had the post...

removed post-haste!

[NNadir]

22. The only thing that makes me "uncomfortable" about Moore, is that people can admire such...

...a smug asshole, particularly one who is as much of an ignoramus as he is.

In 2000 this smug asshole with a very low level of perception and a healthy dollop of bourgeois self absorption announced that George Bush and Al Gore were equivalent.

How stupid must you be to make such a statement?

He endorsed a person who was possible even more ignorant than he is as a result, the paranoid "Jack T. Ripper" clone Ralph Nader.

More than 1 million Iraqi's died because of "the same as Gore."

The world has not been the same.

He's nowhere near as pure as he declares himself. In fact, he's a prime example of the Dunning Kruger effect, almost Trumpian in that regard, since he holds himself in high esteem despite lacking a shred of ethical credibility, as demonstrated by the 1 million dead Iraqis.

This may come to a surprise to the "Bowling for Columbine" author who seems to have found the deaths of these young people as something worthy of a smug joke title, but believe it or not, Iraqis are human beings.

He can go fuck himself and all of his efforts to elevate the likes of Trump and Bush et al.

[Gothmog]

31. I agree with your analysis

I also dislike Moore

[JI7]

39. and this

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/09/michael-moore-smear-law-suit-boston-light-sound-chapin-cutler-1202003806/

[Cha]

49. Inside Michael Moore's Smear Campaign Against the Man Who Helped Build His Film Festival

With Traverse City Film Festival facing financial instability, Moore’s attacks on the credibility of Boston Light & Sound’s Chapin Cutler and his former executive director Deb Lake are raising eyebrows.

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/09/michael-moore-smear-law-suit-boston-light-sound-chapin-cutler-1202003806/

Now he's trying to "smear" President Obama and Hillary right before the 2018 Midterms.

M.Moore can FUCK OFF.

Mahalo, JI7

[betsuni]

46. And obviously Dick Cheney was going to be running the shop, so it wasn't even that Bush and Gore

were equivalent, but Cheney and Gore!

[Honeycombe8]

23. Depends on who a person blames for it.

The argument starts with, "The only two parties that get successfully elected repeatedly take money donations from corporations." Well, that begs the argument: A party NEEDS to take money donations from corporations or special interests in order to win. Look at the parties that don't. They lose repeatedly.

The problem is WHY the winning parties take donations from special interests. It's because they have to. That problem existed before Citizens United, altho was made worse by Cit. United.

A party does no good if it doesn't win.

The focus should be campaign finance reform, which is a bipartisan issue, and one that Republican John McCain fought for. McCain was probably stronger on that issue than most Democrats.

Maybe we should start requiring our Democratic candidates to be for campaign finance reform, and then expect them to push the issue. This would require the Democrats owning the executive and legislative branches (both houses), because the majority of Republicans will never vote for it. That's because they benefit more from it.

Add that to the list of what we want from Democratic politiicans:
Campaign finance reform
Medicare for all
Protection of Social Security
Protection of Roe v Wade
Lily Ledbetter wage protection for women
Infrastructure
Jobs

But I think it's wrong to blame the parties from doing what it takes to win. If you don't win, you can't do anything about any issue.

[SidDithers]

24. ...

Sid

[Gothmog]

32. Arghh

Moore and Asange are two peas in a pod

[R B Garr]

33. Wow! That sure explains a lot!

Thanks for pointing out their connection. No wonder all these anti-Dems all sound alike.

[JI7]

38. and taken the day of the Trump Tower meeting

[NurseJackie]

41. Disgusting photo.

[Cha]

54. To expound on your Moore/Assange buddy pic, Sid..

Michael Moore needs to study Jane Mayer's findings.. even though it doesn't fit in with his narrative.

Jane Mayer was very busy this weekend - yes, the Russians stole the election for Trump

snip//

(Julian Assange, the head of WikiLeaks, has denied working with the Russian government, but he manifestly despises Clinton, and, in a leaked Twitter direct message, he said that in the 2016 election “it would be much better for GOP to win.”)

There he is with his buddy now.. wonder when that was taken?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11169836

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11172223

Thank You!

[lapfog_1]

26. because right now it is all hands on deck

Democracy is taking on water and maybe sinking (not just here but around the world).

I don't give a shit if Democratic party members walk around with corporate logos plastered all over their clothing like NASCAR drivers.

Democrats still believe in the rule of law. Democrats still believe in getting everyone to vote.

We are against a party that is a cult and is anti-democracy... that is trying (with some success) to establish a dictatorship.

Screw everything else. Screw anyone who makes any sort of "both sides are corrupt" bullshit argument.

That attitude gave us Bush 2 and Trump 1.

They are the two worst Presidents in US History... worse than Reagan, worse than Nixon... worse than any of them.

[Gothmog]

30. It seems that moore's Movie bombed

People really are not paying attention to his rants

[Algernon Moncrieff]

35. The bombed narrative is overplayed

Variety and Box Office Mojo were looking for a $5M+ opening. But as BOM pointed out, it's the 15th best opening for a documentary ever. While RBG and Will You Be My Neighbor have made very solid earnings, they've been in theaters for months.

Personally, I'm waiting for Netflix.

[BannonsLiver]

66. Nah, it bombed

Super wide release for a documentary with nearly 1800 screens. Made less than $4 million. It was a huge bomb, no matter how his fans and devotees want to spin it.

[marlakay]

36. I saw the movie today

the whole movie was sad, no comedy at all. His message was clear, we are screwed. A huge chunk of the movie was about how we all failed Flint, both sides because Obama could have done more too. I think the governor belongs in jail forever.

It starts out with election night and boy was that hard to watch, it showed Trump in shock, he expected to lose.

it also featured the kids from Florida a lot.

The movie ended with the part of that girls speech at march where she is silent for a long time.

He does also shows Hitler a bit and you get the point that people thought he was going to help them in the beginning.

I agree with those who say the film was rushed, it wasn’t as good as his others and I have seen all of them. I think he was trying to tell dems to get their soul and go back to their roots.

[Gothmog]

37. Were there other people in the theater?

[marlakay]

42. I went to 2pm show on Senior discount day

So it was lines of older folks. I think about 8 people besides us there. I actually expected not many as I live in conservative town Medford in Oregon. We do have some dems here though.

Our theater has new leather seats with foot cushions and now serves wine and beer good brands too so I find I am going more.

[Gothmog]

43. Former first lady #MichelleObama launches #WhenWeAllVote campaign

Here is how real democrats work to turn out the vote

Link to tweet

[Cha]

51. Poor Bitter Moore.. his trying to smear Pres Obama & Hillary is NOT working..

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Michelle and Barack are true patriots GOTV! Helping us for the 2018 Midterms.. Not trying to depress it like the Liar MM.

Mahalo, Goth!

[betsuni]

48. Democrats don't have legislation written for them by think tanks funded by corporations and

billionaires. If a Democrat used corporate PAC money and then changed their position and vote more favorably to that corporation, I'm sure we'd hear about it. If there is evidence that it's a big problem, then people who are concerned about this should come out with it. It's like if someone calls you corrupt and you say, fine, prove it, and they can't.

[Cha]

50. Moore is an Idiot.. hasn't learned any GD lessons... he wants You to "Embrace trump"

“But I think we have to embrace Trump,” Moore said in the interview. “People reading this will say, ‘What do you mean? Embrace Trump?’ But we have to embrace him. We have to listen to him. He’s telling lies, and he’s telling the truth at the same time"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either/?utm_term=.77221405d03e

But, M.Moore also says trump is like "hitler".. so why should we "embrace" someone like hitler? Or the fucking moron?

"In new film, Michael Moore compares Trump to Hitler. And he's not so crazy about Obama, either."

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either/?utm_term=.77221405d03e

[icaria]

52. A really thought provoking post - thanks.

I confess to being a Slavoj Zizek fan (the Michael Moore of europe?) who can often go much further in making people uncomfortable (if they are listening). But we need to understand different perspectives and to see the truth underlying some of these folks' ideas.

[JHan]

57. You mean like when Zizek said that Alt-right Trump Supporters and left wing Sanders fans..

should unite to defeat capitalism? Sounds like the rhetoric about "embracing Trump".

Zizek also endorsed Trump because like Sarandon, he thought it would bring about some magical voter revolution. It hasn't. We're 10 steps backward, and undoing the GOP's nonsense will take tremendous effort to retrace those steps to get back to where we were. But Zizek endorsing trump didn't surprise me since both Trump and Zizek have crazed fans with the same demographic makeup, feverish nihilistic fantasies, and a love for young Eastern European women decades younger than themselves ( and failed marriages).

[Cha]

60. Wow! Thank You for that nutshell description

of Slavoj Zizek, JH. I had no idea who he is.

Sounds like a real Loser.

[SHRED]

53. Vague references to "beholden to corporate cash" are idiotic to me

So much bullshit false equivalency out there aimed at the Democratic Party as if we are even close to the Repubs in this realm.

To believe this you need to totally ignore the voting records of Democrats and campaign financing sources (opensecrets.org).

I am so fucking sick of this shit.

Our party is not even in the same universe as the Repubs. Not even close when you again, look at voting records and financing sources.

But that is too much work rather than just taking the Sarandon, Stein, Moore, and Sanders words as gospel.

[betsuni]

55. It is idiotic.

It's as if people have been hypnotized to mindlessly respond to these phrases and buzzwords. Republicans have their legislation written for them by think tanks funded by corporations and billionaires, they aren't hiding that fact. They aren't hiding anything at this point. Yet there are people who can't see any of it, like it's a blind spot. It has to be some sort of psychological thing.

[SHRED]

65. It's maddening

[Fred Sanders]

67. Does anyone seriously believe Moore is not aware of ALEC and RW think tanks and RW propaganda?

Setting up your own scarecrows and then knocking them down is fun!

[SHRED]

68. People on the Left did not vote for Hillary

In part because of people like Moore, Sarandon, Stein, etc...