I Beg You: Never, ever use "Begs the Question"

[ProfessorPlum]

Small pet peeve of mine, but I've just read two OPs in a row that used this phrase, incorrectly.

"Begs the Question" is a logical fallacy. It means to make a statement that relies on the truth of another statement that has not been proven - usually in a circular manner. It is something like "Alaska is the largest US state because it has a bigger land area than the others". Or "George Carlin's stand up is really funny because he uses such humorous voices and turns of phrase". Using a statement like that begs the question of is the conclusion really true - because the premise doesn't prove it.

In any case, Begs the Question has been MIS-USED for so long, that there really are only two ways to use it currently:

1. Use it correctly, and 95% of your audience won't know what the hell you are talking about

OR

2. Use it incorrectly, which is to contribute to problem #1


It's catchy, "begs the question". BUT please use "raises the question" or "it makes me wonder" or "asks the question" or "implies the question" instead. Begs the question has been ruined from misuse, and there is no saving it.

/minirant

[Croney]

1. I gave up on this one but it still annoys me.

It's one of those battles we will not win because the tide of mass mis-usage has swept up philosophers and peasants alike. Now if only "invite" could not be used as a noun... please...

[ProfessorPlum]

5. lol

[MaryMagdaline]

152. Mea culpa

[muriel_volestrangler]

167. First recorded use of 'invite' as a noun: 1659

H. L'Estrange Alliance Divine Offices 326 "Bishop Cranmer..gives him an earnest invite to England." - Oxford English Dictionary

[ProfessorPlum]

169. bleh

I hated it then, too, lol

[PJMcK]

2. Yeah, I hate that one, too

Unfortunately for you and me, language is fluid and constantly evolving.

A third choice would be to just never use the phrase. That one works for me.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. that's what I'm begging for

[FreepFryer]

3. Please don't murder grammar when you lecture about phraseology.

Using a statement like that begs the question of is the conclusion really true - because the premise doesn't prove it.

That is an appalling sentence, ridden with broken grammar and a lost, lonely preposition. It defeats your point, having such terrible grammar enveloping the central sentence of your argument, just because the writing sucks.

It should have read:

Using a statement like that begs the question, “is the conclusion really true?” ...because the premise doesn't prove it.

Sorry to be a windbaggy, didactic, patronizing ersatz teacher - but you started it.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

6. but that begs the question

So... and that beg's the question of ware the of went when their replaced by just a coma.





(I'm not buying a new monitor for you. Stop punching it, please).

[FreepFryer]

12. You, sir or madam, are an evil genius. (Nt)

[Hermit-The-Prog]

18. as long as it made you smile :) nt

[malaise]

36. I see what you did here

[JHan]

138. ...

[Separation]

158. Dont hit me.....

So... and that beg's the question of ware the of went when their replaced by just a coma.

Ok dont hit me, but shouldnt that be they're, instead of their?

Or did I just fail at 6th grade grammar?

[Croney]

7. Ridden with broken grammar?

Lol


Also, your second sentence below is surely a parody.

That is an appalling sentence, ridden with broken grammar and a lost, lonely preposition. It defeats your point, having such terrible grammar enveloping the central sentence of your argument, just because the writing sucks.

[FreepFryer]

9. Relevant supporting dictionary definitions for 'ridden'

ridden (ˈrɪdən)
vb
the past participle of ride
adj
(in combination) afflicted, affected, or dominated by something specified: damp-ridden; disease-ridden.
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014


rid•den (ˈrɪd n)

v.
a pp. of ride.
-ridden
a combining form meaning “obsessed with,” “overwhelmed by” (torment-ridden) or “burdened with” (debt-ridden).
[see ridden]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/ridden

[Croney]

13. Why not just say riddled with?

(I know, I know, you're right) 👍

[FreepFryer]

16. I am but a vessel, a mere implement of greater forces than ourselves... I wield a red grading pencil

But alas, it is no Excalibur. My day too shall come, and when it does, I will gladly abandon my thesaurus for Playdoh. Until then, I am doomed to walk these digital corridors, offering essentially useless snark and proofreading in exchange for sandwiches riddled with condiments and doubt, with only a cold coffee and the lonely conviction of bad ideas to keep me company.

Cheers

[ecstatic]

21. Lol! nt

[Cha]

144. Bravo!

[MaryMagdaline]

153. That is deep. And funny. And deeply funny

[ecstatic]

166. I love it!

I wish I had your wit and style!

[PJMcK]

8. Do you really need the ellipsis? (n/t)

[FreepFryer]

10. It's an elitist dog whistle so I can get support from other bad humanists (n/t)

[Denzil_DC]

145. Needed semicolons; n/t.

[enough]

11. There's a third option: simply accept that the meaning has changed.

I’ve been watching this change for many years. At first I was extremely annoyed by it, but then I relaxed and realized that the new meaning works quite well and people know you mean when you use it.

It’s interesting to live long enough to watch these changes happen.

[ProfessorPlum]

14. too easy

lol

[Hermit-The-Prog]

17. 4th option

There's a fourth option, as well. Laugh, point, and run away.

I understand the annoyance. The word "hacker" has been usurped by the talking heads of tv to refer to persons who would be more properly called vandals.

[Croney]

23. So true. Look at the word "suck."

I remember when an egg-sucking dog or other animal was a terrible thing. Then the word became sexualized. Now it's "Your team sucks!" and "I lost my phone, man that sucks!" I still cringe when I hear a child use it. But I'm old, and recognize that language ripens too.

[ProfessorPlum]

134. language ripens

what a beautiful turn of phrase

[Croney]

135. Thank you.

[defacto7]

52. In the words of S. Palin

"American is an evolving language."

[Renew Deal]

105. Which begs the question, why are you so accepting of this change?

[tblue37]

15. I have an article on one of my websites about begging the question:

http://grammartips.homestead.com/begging.html

[SWBTATTReg]

48. Thanks for pointing out your website. I enjoyed the 'listening as hard as I can' item...

Being 95% deaf doesn't help one in conversations, and as a matter of fact, I rely far more on lip reading than I do the hearing aids (two of them). Thanks for posting.

[tblue37]

149. The article about begging the question is on my grammar and usage site, where I have

over a hundred of my articles posted. I'm Listening as Hard as I Can! is my deaf/hard of hearing site. I have eight other public sites on a variety of different topics: parenting, ADD/ADHD, understanding poetry, how to write essays, and teaching and education issues. I also have two sites where I post funny true stories about animals and children. My last site, Out of the Blue, is where I post my "orphan" articles that don't fit the topics of the other nine sites.

The home page of each site has the links to all of the other sites, and links to the homepage and article index of each site is at the bottom of all the articles of that site.

Fair warning: I have about 450 articles spread across my 10 sites. People tell me they get caught up going from one article to another and forget to go to bed.

[tblue37]

19. Another of my pet peeves: the misuse of "penultimate."

It means second to last, but a lot of people think it means the most extreme example of something.

I use "penultimate" sometimes when directing my class to a specific paragraph in an article or to a specific stanza in a poem, but I prevent them from forgetting that it doesn't mean the extreme example of something by also teaching and using the term "antepenultimate" (i.e., third to last). That pairing keeps it clear in their minds.

[FreepFryer]

25. The worst, imho, is the abuse of "comprises" with a misapplication, or the horrors of "comprised of"

It seems simple enough: “to comprise” means “to contain” (1), as in “The house comprises seven rooms.” In other words, this house has or contains seven rooms. When you use “comprise,” you’re talking about all the parts that make up something. Usually. More on that a little later.

The important thing to remember when you’re using the word “comprise” is that the item that is the whole shebang comes first in the sentence; second come the items that are its parts. For example, you might say, “A full pack comprises 52 cards.” The pack is the whole shebang, so it comes first in the sentence. It would be wrong to say, “Fifty-two cards comprise a full pack.” Likewise, America comprises 50 states, not fifty states comprise America. In this sentence, America is the whole shebang, so it comes first in the sentence. The whole comprises the parts.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-girl

That’s the one that makes me insane with rage. So insane, that I have occasionally dropped my red grading pencil before tearing a savage “F” across the page.

[Docreed2003]

41. I would argue that the current use of "literally" is the worst

Every time I hear people use "literally" to make a point in their statement, my blood boils.

[FreepFryer]

42. Agreed. 'Comprises' is, at worst, penultimate on the countdown (see what i did there?) :) (n/t)

While 'literally' is violated far worse and far more frequently in conversation, 'comprises' is mangled far more consistently in print, all the damn time, by all kinds of people who think they are all kinds of smart (me included).

[ProfessorPlum]

30. penultimate is such a great word

I'd hate to see it get misused out of existence.

[violetpastille]

67. MSNBCisms:

Fulsome when fully is meant. And enormity when enormousness or "sheer size" is meant.

[grantcart]

140. Anybody who misuses penultimate should be sentenced to 6 months of latin

Or Greek

[MaryMagdaline]

156. Good lesson. Thank you

[marble falls]

20. This certainly does beg a question: what is really going on with your out of ...

proportion anger-response this innocent and useful expression?

It seems to me that that your efforts would be better used to the permanent elimination of "orientated" as in 'I am a fact orientated person' as opposed 'I am a fact oriented person'.

[ProfessorPlum]

28. I'm just really flustrated by the way some people think it is funner to be mischievious

rather then correct, expecially when they are supposebly well educated. Anyways, some people just take it for granite that any usage is ok. I see that alot.

[USALiberal]

38. LOL, are you really this uptight? Nt

[ProfessorPlum]

46. I could care less whether I got my point acrossed to you

Irregardless, you'll undoubtably misunderstand it again.

[violetpastille]

68. I like your playfulness with language.

Granite for granted. And acrossed for across. Funner for more fun. It's Lewis Carrollian.

[ProfessorPlum]

70. Thank you! Spot all of the errors

I think you are 3 out of 11

[violetpastille]

77. and thank you.

[MaryMagdaline]

159. Also, too: you are different than my other grammar teachers

More conservative oriented.

Peace ✌️

[marble falls]

175. I think its just one of the quirks that make you the fun and good DUer you are.

[cwydro]

22. Thank you. I see it misused all the time here.

Along with myriad others.

[Hortensis]

24. I'm getting tired of "categorically deny" from a ruthless liar.

My newest peeve. It may be used properly used grammarwise, but it's anything but proper.

[cyclonefence]

26. And what happened to the word "crisp?"

It's disappeared. Everything is "crispy" now. No it's not goddammit. It's CRISP.

[ProfessorPlum]

34. Or "method"? Now it's always "methodology"

[ProfessorGAC]

54. Or Resiliency.

Where'd that come from? Why isn't resilience good enough?

They both being used as nouns and in the same context. We just had to add the unnecessary 4th syllable, didn't we?

[ProfessorPlum]

61. and scientists always have a mouth full of marble-y words to start with

I try to encourage my scientific colleagues to save syllables, where they can

[ProfessorGAC]

66. As A Fellow Scientist. . .

. . . how about this one?

Hydrolyization. Huh? Why not just hydrolysis? Both nouns. One fewer syllable my way!

[ProfessorPlum]

71. that is a mouthful

and i don't know of a difference

I always smile when someone bothers to make the correct use of saponification, instead of hydrolysis of an ester, by use of a base. I feel like that is showing off

[ProfessorGAC]

73. Sounds Like Something I Would Do

And technically, that would be methanolysis or ethanolysis, because the condensate of the reaction is not water! And generally speaking saponification (the making of soap) is done from the oil which leaves the glycerol behind, which means that chemically that would be glycerolysis.

Am i showing off???

[ProfessorPlum]

74. lol, I'll forgive you. This time.

[Shrek]

27. It literally makes my head explode n/t

[ProfessorPlum]

29. lol. nice

[grantcart]

139. Snort

[LAS14]

31. Thanks! But I do agree with reply #3 that one of your sentences is impossible. nt

[ProfessorPlum]

35. I must have that person on block

oh well, I'll never have the benefit of their wisdom.

[FreepFryer]

39. Seems fair, as we demonstrably lack any benefit of yours in this whopper of an OP :)

I think I may have alienated ProfPlum with my sagacity and derring-do.

[defacto7]

56. It's unfortunate since you both are so much alike,

except you're from the dark side.

[FreepFryer]

87. "Where there is light, there must be shadow - where there is shadow there must be light."

[defacto7]

150. My god, you're so profound it sends chill down my spine.

or up, I can't always tell. It's one way or the other, maybe both.

[FreepFryer]

151. If you can't tell, you don't have one. (n/t)

[defacto7]

161. Ah, so that explains this wheel chair. Thanks.

[FreepFryer]

168. Being spineless doesn't necessitate a wheelchair. As you know, one can just truck in empty insults.

[defacto7]

171. Insults?

Where did that come from? It seems innocent fun has become serious.

Then on a serious note... forget it.

Be well.

[FreepFryer]

172. U too - I'm not 'from the dark side,' bc another user blocked me. That's what I took as an insult.

And the sarcasm of your comment about the ostensible profundity of my comments put it way over the top.

Sincerely, you too. I'm glad there was no ill intent on your part because there hadn't been a glimmer of it here until I inferred it from your comment. GLad I was mistaken, and I apologize for the misattributed bad faith.

Be well as well.

[defacto7]

173. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

It was only meant as friendly banter.

[FreepFryer]

174. Awesome, likewise and looking forward to our next encounter :D

[USALiberal]

32. Really??? Lighten the hell up! Nt

[ProfessorPlum]

33. one might say the same to you

[tavernier]

37. Yes. Let's blow it up with the wheelhouse.

[tblue37]

40. While we're at it, I also grind my teeth when I see "from whence," which I just ran into on

Raw Story.

[0rganism]

43. its meaning has changed, we probably just need to accept and move on

there have been many days when i was frustrated with the mis-usage too, and i thought of starting threads like this one in various forums. it grates on my cerebellum and turns coherent ideas into mush when i hear it. however, i decided this isn't a battle i want to engage and now i just try to do some internal translation from "begs" to "raises" when it comes up. language changes over time, and now this phrase's usage has changed. the new (mis)usage is widespread in mass media. the toothpaste has left the tube. no amount of well-intentioned grammar threads on DU will restore it to its former rarely-used glory.

[ProfessorPlum]

45. sadly, I agree

[defacto7]

57. And with that Sarah Palin wins the battle.

since according to her, "American is an evolving language."

[Donkees]

44. "begging the question" is derived from an antiquated usage of "beg" meaning "to take for granted."

The traditional meaning of "begging the question" is derived from an antiquated usage of "beg" meaning "to take for granted." In that usage, a "beggar" was usually someone who camped on the local squire's land without permission.

When this phrase had currency, it was in the dialect of people who had an enviable station in life; they were wealthy and powerful. The examples of its usage that survive today have been preserved because they were uttered by people who had something interesting to say and were good at saying it, but it is also true that people paid attention to what they said because of their wealth and power.

So why do people now say "beg the question" when they mean "raise the question"? As Ben says, it is quite an unnatural construction in the latter usage. In my opinion, the attraction is that it imitates the language of those who once did use it naturally, and the modern speakers hope that the virtues of these older speakers - intelligence, fluency, and social status - will somehow be transferred to them.
It is just an unfortunate irony that the very misuse of the phrase should undermine the hopes that gave utterance to it.

Although it is true that language changes continually, this observation by itself is not an adequate guide to effective usage. If I wanted to communicate with the widest possible audience, I would avoid the phrase altogether. But in a blog for educated professionals, I see nothing wrong with promoting familiarity with the interesting ideas of the past.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/305/what-does-the-phrase-begging-the-question-mean

[defacto7]

58. hmm, must give us pause.

[woundedkarma]

47. My small pet peeve

Is people who have small pet peeves about language usage.

If a phrase/word/etc whatever exists is used for a long time in a way that is different from the original meaning then that begs the question, which is the real meaning?

Language is organic, it moves and changes over time. It's meanings, it's "words" and the correct phrases all depend on the people using it.

[ProfessorPlum]

64. but then, we have to give in to "butt naked", "duck tape"

"the mist of things", "nip it in the butt" (what is it with butts?), "towing the line" "sewing dissent", and every other eggcorn that comes our way, lol.

Change is inevitable, and possibly even good, but someone has to stand athwart it

[Polly Hennessey]

49. Thank you.

I enjoyed the discussion. Grammar class at 7:31 AM - love it. All of you are “delicious.”

[ck4829]

50. Yes.

[luvtheGWN]

51. Thank you, Professor Plum.

It drives me buggy too, but what REALLY, REALLY irks me is to hear far too many people mis-use the verbs "to lie" and "to lay". When someone says "I'm going to lay down now" I want to ask "What exactly is it you're planning to lay down?" The word takes an object -- always. Why are folks so afraid to use the word "lie". Is it because they only think of that word's other meaning -- to state a falsehood?

I'm starting to think the mis-use of "lay" can be attributed to that children's night-time prayer "Now I lay me down to sleep..." which just doesn't have the same rhythm as the grammatically correct "Now I'm going to lie down to sleep". And there's another poem by an American poet (can't remember it but someone here will be able to) that is similarly incorrect but sounds nice...

I can honestly say that I never heard lay mis-used up here in the GWN until a few years ago. I think it started with American television (sitcoms and dramas), then wormed its way into newscasts and then into Canadian media. Now its endemic amongst the population. English teachers are working overtime and taking medication to keep their rage at bay! Gaaaagh!

And about apostrophes: When in doubt, leave it out!

[ProfessorPlum]

62. lol, that's great advice

I wonder if it is (less improper) to say you lay yourself down - since that is reflexive and technically has an object. I'm going to lay down then creeps into the language that way.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Which begs the question,

Just kidding

[ProfessorGAC]

55. What's Your Take On "Apropos"?

On that one, the definition has shifted where it is essentially a synonym for "appropriate". But, that's not how i learned it a couple million years ago.

[ProfessorPlum]

63. what is the original usage?

when I hear it, I think "with regard to" or something along those lines

[ProfessorGAC]

65. That's What I Was Taught

"in regard to", "with regard to", "as it regards", "as it relates to"...

That kind of thing. But, the definition has shifted over time. I doubt there is any going back.

[zipplewrath]

59. Loss of a Liberal Arts education

It's changed. It isn't changing, it's changed. (Am I supposed to use contractions in this forum?)

There are tons of expressions that have either morphed, or completely flipped. In some cases the original meanings have been lost. In this particular case, the vast majority of people barely study logic at all so the various logical fallacies are meaningless to them.

Quite honestly, the one that bothers me more, is professional "speakers" like anchors and columnists that use phrases like "put up with" or "where are they at" that bug me more. Sure, from a casual speaker I don't mind. But from a professional it is "off putting".

[marybourg]

60. You really expect a populace that doesn't know the difference

Last edited Tue Sep 25, 2018, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

between the fundamentals of our language: the subject “I” and the object “me”, daily uttering such abominations as “Me and him went shopping” and “they gave it to her and I”, are going to get the nuances of the now-archaic “beg the question”?

[Blue_Tires]

69. TRUTH

[Goodheart]

72. Hate to be the lone voice of dissent, but I think you're wrong.

First, I'll start off with what should be obvious: "begs" within the phrase is primarily metaphorical and marginally definitional, but not meant as literal.

Having said that, consider this:

"Joe was supposed to be the best man but was not at the wedding. Which begs the question: where the hell was he?"

That, my friend, is not only perfectly correct usage, it's preferable within the context to the alternative "raises the question". Why? Because the situation was so extraordinary and unexpected that an explanation of Joe's whereabouts doesn't merely warrant a "raise" but an active request, a beseechment, an implorement, a beg.


And the consequent question in no way rebuts the accuracy of the premise statement, but affirms it.

[ProfessorPlum]

76. that's certainly the way it is used now

and seems destined to be used in the future. Incorrectly. (he points out pedantically).

I get it, it sounds right, but for people who want to speak or write as correctly as they can, it's better not to use it at all.

[Goodheart]

79. Sorry, but I'll repeat... it's not used incorrectly in my example.

I stated my case... conclusively, in my view. And you're just offering up an assertion of incorrectness.

I think you'd be better served if you gave us an example of something else you've seen that seems incorrect to you. You didn't include that in your original post, either.

[ProfessorPlum]

90. sorry, but your example uses a popular, but incorrect, use of "begs the question"

It's cool, keep using it the way that you do if it works for you. Lots of other people do.

[Goodheart]

95. A mere assertion. You haven't demonstrated that it's incorrect, sorry.

Whereas I've demonstrated its correctness.

[ProfessorPlum]

97. there is a thing called google

where you can type this in and read grammar blog entries all day.

Go forth and research the history of the phrase.

[Goodheart]

98. You fail, sorry.

[ProfessorPlum]

100. I'll try to get over my epic fail

[Goodheart]

102. I see your problem, though.

I am certainly aware of the logical fallacy known as "begging the question", but what I gave was not an example of the logical fallacy, and what you assumed in your lead post was that almost all usage of the phrase does. You were wrong. You failed. I gave you a perfect example of how the phrase works perfectly. How can language possibly be incorrect when it's grammatically correct, semantically correct, factually correct, metaphorically correct? It can't be. Instead, you should appreciate the phrase within the context it's used rather than insisting words should not be used except by some ancient construction?

[ProfessorPlum]

107. thanks for the advice!

[Goodheart]

83. Also, I'm not trying to be a butthole, but the grammar in your lead post is rather spotty

So I'm not sure what you're trying to say about a second "conclusion"? There is no second "conclusion" but a consequent QUESTION.

What in the world are you trying to say, really?

Please give us an example of something you've seen that you feel is incorrect usage.

[ProfessorPlum]

88. that's not really grammar

I'm using premise and conclusion. As in if premise A is true, then conclusion B is true.

Many examples of the begging the question fallacy use the construct "Conclusion B is true, because of premise A". But the problem is that premise A hasn't been proven, or is circular.

[Goodheart]

94. Give me an example, please.

I have never used "begs the question" to introduce a subsequent conclusion (and can't recall ever seeing such usage), only always to ask a question that flows for the premise.

What "conclusion B" are you talking about? What typically follows "begs the question" is a QUESTION, not a conclusion.

[Jim Lane]

157. Here's what I consider a correct example.

I didn't bother searching for one (because the misuse would be so common). I just made one up:

In opposing the bill to restrict indoor smoking, the tobacco company executive asked whether it was fair to deprive people of the health benefits of second-hand smoke. That begged the question of whether there were such benefits.

You write that you've never seen such a usage. I'll agree that it's rare. These days, as the OP and some of the other posts here note, "beg the question" is used by people who mean "raise the question" but who think that "beg" sounds more erudite.

[kennetha]

163. you don't know what you're talking about.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question-update

[tymorial]

78. I beg you to not beg people to stop begging the question

[ProfessorPlum]

91. ! :)

[3catwoman3]

80. Thank you for this.

My older son and I are what we affectionately refer to as "word nerds," and we often have interesting conversations about shoddy usage. He is also a devoted soccer player, fan, and part time coach and we were just lamenting how the word "versus" seems to be disappearing. It bugs him when he hears his players ask, "Who are we versing?"

I am guilty of avoiding proper use or proper pronunciation of things I know to be right when I suspect my listeners will either not know what is correct and think I am making a mistake, or regard me as pretentious. I never pronounce err the way it is supposed to be pronounced, because most people look at you as if you have lost your mind. Seeing as error is pronounces air-er, why isn't err supposed to be pronounced as "air?"

[HopeAgain]

81. It strikes me that the correct usage of the term was written for Trump

Because he says things such as "I'm the most successful President because I have achieved more in two years than any other President in history."

[ProfessorPlum]

92. perfect example

[kennetha]

82. For reasons I don't understand... journalists seem to have started and perpetuated this misuse.

drives me bonkers.

[Goodheart]

84. Please give us an example of the misuse.

I haven't seen one in this thread. ????

[TDale313]

85. "Begs the question" is not a phrase I tend to use.

On the other hand, I’m a contrarian and find this post pretty over-the-top pedantic and unrealistic. Which begs the question: Should I start? 😉

[ProfessorPlum]

93. lol. I urge, no I insist, that you do so

[TDale313]

99. ...

Just playing.

[AndJusticeForSome]

86. But doesn't the exception prove the rule?

[ProfessorPlum]

96. a great example of incorrect usage crushing the correct one

[3catwoman3]

89. I have noticed frequent use of "unctuous" on various of the food...

...shows I watch. Those who use it seem to be intending as a compliment for items with a smooth buttery mouthfeel. Knowing it original meaning, it grates on my ear and doesn't sound at all appealing.

Even Rachel Maddow is using fulsome incorrectly.

[AndJusticeForSome]

116. One might say a snake oil salesman is unctious.

How the hell does a word like that come to mean something good about food? I've wondered that myself.

[ProfessorPlum]

120. the root of the word means "oily"

negative when referring to people, like obsequious, and (possibly?) positive when it comes to food?

[AndJusticeForSome]

122. Right, oily, like snake oil.

That doesn't sound appetizing at all, to me.

That is, I think the oil referenced is not the sort that would taste good.

[MaryMagdaline]

154. Eeeeew. Unctuous is Ted Cruz. I could never eat any food that came near "unctuous"

[Beearewhyain]

101. Language is a living thing that evolves

If, as you assert, that 95% of people won't know what you are talking about if you use the phrase "correctly" but would understand the intent of the writer if used "incorrectly" then maybe we should reassess what is "correct" usage.

While I certainly have preferences in the use of language, it is ultimately only a tool to convey information and meaning. If the way in which I use language, regardless of rules, does not convey to the recipient the information and meaning I wish to transmit, then the exercise fails in its primary purpose. As such, the rule then becomes contrary to the very point of language itself.

[Goodheart]

104. Professor Plum errs in his insistence that there is only one meaning to the phrase.

i.e. the allusion to a logical fallacy.

But the other more common usage is perfectly fine.... as a segue to a consequent question.

[ProfessorPlum]

109. sez you! lol

I think that it's safe to say that the usage you are talking about is common, but not (yet) correct. Maybe in another 25 years. A bunch of pedants will have to die off first,

[Goodheart]

113. Here's the proof

"Joe was supposed to be the best man but was not at the wedding. Which begs the question: where the hell was he?"

If I had said instead:

"Joe was supposed to be the best man but was not at the wedding. Which implores the question: where the hell was he?"

Would that be improper usage of a phrase? Of course not. And inasmuch as "begs" and "implores" are synonyms then "begs the question" could not be improper, either.

Case proven.

[ProfessorPlum]

106. the humpty dumpty theory of word meaning

[Beearewhyain]

108. I'll guess you disagree

Your meaning is unclear.

[ProfessorPlum]

110. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader

[Beearewhyain]

112. I don't like exercise

I hate getting sweaty.

[Goodheart]

111. I gave this example earlier.

"Joe was supposed to be the best man but was not at the wedding. Which begs the question: where the hell was he?"

Now, as far as I can tell, you say that's improper usage of the phrase. I say it's perfectly correct. As am I, and I'll prove it:

If I had said instead:

"Joe was supposed to be the best man but was not at the wedding. Which implores the question: where the hell was he?"

Would that be improper usage of a phrase? Of course not. And inasmuch as "begs" and "implores" are synonyms then "begs the question" could not be improper, either.

Case proven.

[ProfessorPlum]

115. .

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question

[Goodheart]

119. Elitist nonsense.

"Begging the question" is NOT the same phrase as "which begs the question" in the first place.

[AndJusticeForSome]

103. I'm worried about "infer" and "imply" becoming synonymous

Can they be saved?

[llmart]

114. I have a problem with people using "thru" instead of "through".

However, I also have a problem with younger generations not being taught cursive any more.

[Goodheart]

117. Actually, I like that one.

I think there should be an active movement to respell words phonetically.

through
bough
rough
furlough

Who decided in the first place that those FOUR different sounds should be spelled identically?

[defacto7]

160. Those "gh" endings are left over from the Germanic Anglo-Saxon

roots where back of the throat consonants moved forward in the mouth during the old and middle english periods likely due to the influence of french after the Norman conquest. Think of it like tonsils that needed removing but weren't.

[ProfessorPlum]

118. also: get off my lawn! :)

advertising-speak is a real annoyance. Nite for night, lite for light, etc.

[llmart]

124. LOL

I almost put that in a separate sentence at the end of my post, but decided not to.

Sometimes I get offended when I see another poster say that, but that's only because I'm a senior and think it reeks of ageism. However, I'm sort of OK with it because I also think it is mostly applied to old men

[ProfessorPlum]

130. I hope I didn't offend

I'm getting to be an old man myself.

[llmart]

132. No, I wasn't offended by you saying it.

I'm getting a kick out of the entire thread.

[AndJusticeForSome]

121. Typing on small difficult keyboards, and/or character limits

have contributed enormously to such things. I find myself doing the same quite often now.

[llmart]

126. It's one thing to do it in a text...

and another when someone does it in oh, say a legal document.

[AndJusticeForSome]

127. Quite right! n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

123. i LOVE DU language threats!

They are a few of my favoriteest things.

[MaryMagdaline]

155. We need a grammar thread

But then, would we be allowed to comment on syntax and style, or get booted to the curb?

[Mme. Defarge]

125. I may have used this expression once

in my life, even though I had no idea what it really meant.

[dameatball]

128. I tried to post a reply but it "went missing."

[MaryMagdaline]

162. Blame British mysteries on that one

[rusty fender]

129. Professor Plum, are you in the library?

If so, I'm begging you to get out? That is the question!



Oh, and put the candle back!

[ProfessorPlum]

131. I generally prefer to hang out in the conservatory

to avoid Colonel Mustard.

Also, I would never use a blunt instrument. Tell me, does this handkerchief smell like chloroform to you?

[rusty fender]

133. I believe you

because you slay with words, sir.

[japple]

136. I would never use that phrase, but it doesn't bother

me if others use it. What bugs me is when someone uses "at the end of the day." Why don't they just say "when all is said and done."

[ProfessorPlum]

137. or "in the fullness of time"

At the end of the day, it begs the question: which one should we use?

[japple]

146. Oh, now there's a blown up phrase. I think that some people must think that it adds a certain

gravitas to their comments. It always seems like it comes from those folks who orgasm at the sound of their own voice.

Sorry if I have offended anyone. It was not my intent.

[ProfessorPlum]

148. That sounds like a good party trick nt

[FiveGoodMen]

141. I'm reminded of Carson's Floyd R. Turbo

"This raises the question: Oh yeah?"

[grantcart]

142. Is "panhandle the question OK?"

[ProfessorPlum]

143. I Lol'd

nice one

[japple]

147. No, it isn't okay. You made me spew on my screen!

eom

[icaria]

164. Pretty pedantic? But what about really evil stuff like turning verbs into nouns?

"The ask" - a repulsive little bit of corporate-speak.

[ProfessorPlum]

170. that is repulsive

I still get a little queasy when I see grow used as a transitive verb for non-living things - - grow your wealth, grow the deficit, grow your education. I can grow carrots - or increase my wealth - but not grow it.

[dem in texas]

165. The Fact of the matter is ..........

I hate this term so much, Dick Cheney used it all the time.