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MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:04 PM Sep 2018

On the Distorted Logic of Men and Boys

I had a school friend who was severely hazed when he went out for Football at my high school. He dropped out of the team due to it. After a time, his story became public and an investigation ensued. As a band geek, rather than an athletic type, I remember being surprised at what I heard.

The junior and senior class members, the boys who were about to graduate had an excuse for the hazing. They said, "Well we went through it, so everybody should have to go through it." Apparently, it was a "tradition" to harass, abuse, and even sexually assault new team members with foreign objects.

In the end, the coach got fired over this, because he knew of it and didn't stop it. He, too, said things about tradition and the importance of "initiations" to build team spirit. I remember thinking, at the time, that that kind of "spirit" tends to have a life of its own, and only those who share the sort of vindictive, abusive mindset of those who carried out those hazing rituals survive to stay on the team.

It's self-perpetuating. It's OK, because people have survived it, so we should keep doing it because, well, "tradition."

There's some of that in play with adolescent and even adult mistreatment of women. Those who do that teach it to the next group of boys, and it perpetuates itself. It's related to hazing, in the sense that it makes no sense whatsoever.

I've heard that there are hazing rituals for school bands, too, but we had none of that in any musical group I was in. For my last two years of high school, I was the Drum Major for our band. Why? Because I was tall and skinny and fit into the available uniform, mostly. But, it was a leadership position, because the band director found marching band to be a stupid thing. So, I read books about it, learned how to do it, and tried to rise to the occasion. It was fun and a very good experience.

I learned from the Drum Major who came before me. As a freshman band member, I remember him telling the other older band members that they needed to help the new members learn how to march, to stress the importance of practice, and to support them in becoming active, accomplished members of the group. When I became Drum Major, i carried on that tradition.

Some traditions are good ones. Others, like sports team hazing and treating women badly, need to be eradicated. Leadership is needed. Sadly, it seems that the only leadership that is available is made up of people who want new members to be treated as badly as they were at an earlier time. That's the wrong kind of leadership, I think.

We need to do better!

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vlyons

(10,252 posts)
4. Well maybe if we funded public education properly
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:17 PM
Sep 2018

we could actually teach some ethics and real leadership. Average elementary students per teacher in Sweden is 9.27. In Texas, my state, its 15.1. Think about that.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
6. You could be right. On the other hand, every administrator
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:21 PM
Sep 2018

at my small town high school was a jock. I'm not sure how common that is, but it certainly complicated things. They were very, very supportive of sports, athletics and such organizations. It sort of colored the entire philosophy at the time. I recognized it, but, as a kid, there was not really much I could do about it, although I tried sometimes.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
5. I joined my college fraternity in part because they clained no hazing
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:18 PM
Sep 2018

Actually it was mild hazing, but as the semesters went on the hazing grew more severe. There was a "logic" that the new pledges "didn't have it half ss bad as we had it" when in fact it was twice as bad. As an advocate against hazing I was not particularly popular and I regret my time in the fraternity.

They also abused women although not like Kavanaugh. At.least as far as I know no women were ever held down. I rememember watching a house meeting about our house reputation in amazement as one fellow went on and on about how we.needed to pretend to treat women better so that more would come to the house to be abused. And I also sat around one evening trying to tell some of the guys that they needed to be nice to people for no reason other than to be nice to them, and being called "the philosopher" and being told they had no idea what I was telling them.

I am pretty sure these guys are Republicans.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
7. I think there's another element in this. People who seek leadership positions
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:24 PM
Sep 2018

have always seemed to me to be the more aggressive, more authoritarian people. I've seen that at school, in business and, of course, in politics especially.

I've felt for a very long time that people who seek power should not be allowed to have power. The scum always seems to rise to the top.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
14. Perhaps, although let's not underestimate our good leaders
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 01:16 PM
Sep 2018

We do way too much of that here at.DU, in my opinion. Both sides don't do it.

In the story I related there was indeed a bad reputation and women did avoid us. That my more nasty (not.all were bad) fraternity brothers (who had phenonimal grades) would assume leadership (none of them are innpositions of power) would not surprise me all that much.

That men like tbis would have significant numbers of female apologists strains credulity.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
9. Sounds like the coach was a bully
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:25 PM
Sep 2018

A bully attitude is infectious. You bully someone because it's fun and makes you feel good about yourself (although, in reality, it doesn't). So you have to wonder about the malleability of young attitudes. Is a high schooler a blank slate who can be molded either way with positive or negative reinforcement? If the coach were replaced by someone who encouraged positive reinforcement and supporting teammates, would the team's attitude change for the better? Or do the jocks seek out this kind of atmosphere of bullying because it's in their nature?

I'd like to think that people can change and that a positive role model in HS will instill the correct attitude.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
11. That's a very good question.
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:31 PM
Sep 2018

I'm not sure of the answer. In team sports, however, aggressiveness and competitiveness are prized. I think that might play a role in team dynamics on sports teams. Yes, the coach was a bully. He bullied me a couple of times because I was not a jock. It didn't work, and he ended up regretting having done so.

The question may be: Who becomes a typical high school athletics coach? The answer to that might possibly provide some insights. I don't know. I've never been around that environment much, so I just don't know the answer.

I do think that a coach plays a strong role in the dynamic of high school team sports. I'm quite sure that a coach could guide the team to support new teammates, rather than subject them to hazing. Sadly, I'm afraid that hazing is very, very common on sports teams, so perhaps there aren't as many such coaches as there should be.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
10. Our distortion begins way earlier than hazing in school
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:27 PM
Sep 2018

While hazing is certainly a practice that is common to groups like sports teams, fraternities, and others, the concept of transmission of cultural and societal norms is broader. Think about corporal punishment in general. Many parents believe that it is okay to hit their children. Not necessarily beat them severely, but to inflict some kind of corporal pain. The law in many places in the US allows parents to strike children with an "open hand" where it is not strong enough to leave marks. Despite the overwhelming research that shows the negative results of corporal punishment and of harsh verbal criticism. Parents think that it creates discipline and "toughens" kids up.

Secondly, something that I have commented on regularly, is language and imagery and how they are used to create and maintain value. Boys are expected to be tough and aggressive, not little "sissies", "wussies", or worst... "pussies". We were/are insulted with phrases like, "You ... like a girl." We don't play with dolls, we play with "Action Figures". A negative connotation of girls/women is fostered inside of us from childhood. We wear blue not pink because pink is a girl's color and we can't have boys wearing girl's colors. The advertisements we see regularly paint women as sexual objects, shrews, materialistic, etc... Not to mention that the advertisements aimed at girls/women operate by exploiting or creating insecurity about their looks.

By the time boys go off to high school to haze each other, we have already been indoctrinated in to the idea that we have to be tough, rough, crude, rude, and that the only acceptable emotions for us are anger and small amounts of sadness associated with loss. We put ourselves into a box where we cannot truly connect with girls/women, then we ridicule girls/women for their ability to emote and connect to each other and themselves emotionally.

We certainly need to do better, and much earlier than high school.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
12. Yes. I agree with you that the entire male society tends to
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:35 PM
Sep 2018

promote aggressiveness and similar attributes, generally. I think that's unfortunate. It probably has its origins, for individuals, in the family. I thank my mother for giving me insights into the development of empathy and fair treatment of people. That was always very important to her, so she taught us those concepts. She was a moderating influence on my father, who had aggressive instincts. He mellowed a lot as I was growing up.

Caliman73

(11,726 posts)
13. Yeah, it is very confining.
Sat Sep 29, 2018, 12:59 PM
Sep 2018

When I became a father at 21, I wanted to be involved in all aspects of parenting. I had male relatives who made fun of me for changing diapers. They would say, "What the hell are you doing? That's women's work!" To which I would answer, "This is PARENTS' work" I grew up mostly around girls in my extended family so I had the fortune of having to learn more about how they played and were socialized. My dad was also pretty decent about not being overly aggressive or demanding that I conform (except on the toughness thing). Still, I grew up making guns out of sticks and running around my backyard and my grandma's house playing war by myself and later with other neighborhood boys.

I still carry the ideas of masculinity around with me though I try to consciously go against those stereotypes.

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