I'm just gonna say it.. I've been sober for awhile ..

[busterbrown]

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2018, 02:54 PM - Edit history (2)

A.A. is a solid organization..One thing about A.A.; its a lot easier getting sober than staying sober.... Thousands upon thousands come into the rooms every month, few stay!

So let me tell ya.. I am fairly sure Kavenaugh was high during much of the hearing..I feel certain that during the breaks he had a few nips.. He wasn't drunk when he was in the chair, but I'm certain he was high.. Its the only way someone like him could have handled the procedure.. .the Rosacea,(red patches over his face) which could be a symptom ..Stumbling with his words.. Crying,... becoming hostile with Dem panel members asking inappropriate questions.. He might not have been drunk but he definitely was high.

During those breaks.. He had a couple of nips... I'm sure of it.
Because I was in the same situation back in the day when the CEO and managers sat me down.I asked to go to the Bathroom..and pulled out a miniature.. He wasn't Drunk but he was pretty High!

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. Oh yeah. If you exprapolate from his fraternity drinking till now,

given how hard he drank, he's gotta be drinking during the day, just to maintain.

I watched him in the videos, but sound off, and he looks and acts exactly like any sub. abuse patient I ever had.

Wonder how his wife copes?

[busterbrown]

2. Good Quuestion... Her Life has to be a mess...

Abusers just suck!

[marble falls]

3. Her body language changed over this week, didn't it.

[Hekate]

6. His wife is a study in sadness. Oddly, that one pic with all the women while he rants...

His wife looks exactly the same (suffering martyr in a religion that does no allow divorce), but the other women (mother and other relatives I believe) look aghast. I cannot interpret whether they look that way because they think their prince is being unjustly attacked or whether they look that way because they just had no idea how far off the rails he could go.

[Ptah]

9. It seemed to me that she was hurting. nt

[H2O Man]

19. That's a defensive tactic.

She has learned to remain in that form of emotional suspended animation whenever she hears that tone of voice in his rants.

[Mira]

28. Precisely.

It's like knowing the sound of the eggshells cracking as she tries to avoid walking on them.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Greatest Page for your very timely post, my dear busterbrown!

It's a great read and I thank you for it.

[pintobean]

5. I've been sober almost 30 years.

I tried AA for a while. I found it too much like a religion, and those who didn't conform were unwelcome. There were a lot people who thought they were experts on everyone else's problems. Suffering from a disease does not make one an expert on that disease.

There are many reasons few stay.

[Ron Obvious]

8. AA's success rate is only about 7% or so

And you're right, for as much as their disavowing that they're a religion, and that the "Higher Power" could be anything, including the doorknob, it's clear that they are completely a religion, and a Christian one at that. The 12 steps and the Big Book are treated as holy writ, and Bill W as their prophet.

I went for years, and while I never doubted the sincerity of the people, it was fairly clear that when it came to the 12 steps, they all believed it was the only possible way to get sober and getting a sponsor was an absolute must. I never worked the steps and never got a sponsor so they did eventually start giving me the cold shoulder, especially as I wasn't relapsing.

This Atlantic article really lays it out well, I find:

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous
Its faith-based 12-step program dominates treatment in the United States. But researchers have debunked central tenets of AA doctrine and found dozens of other treatments more effective.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

[madamesilverspurs]

13. You do an unwarranted disservice to the organization,

as well as to the millions who have found recovery within those meetings; add to that number the higher millions that comprise their families. Whether you agree with program or not, it was the most effective route to recovery for many decades. And, by the way, the literature makes it clear that they are not the only way for everyone, just for those who want it. The AA model led the way for other effective modalities, and it is still available at no cost to anyone.

Now can we please get back to the topic at hand?


.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

15. STOP

making sense!

[Ron Obvious]

17. Did you read the article?

AA has always had an undeserved reputation in this country, especially in the legal system and in the popular media. When it comes to addiction treatment, it's strictly amateur hour. It's mostly a cult and your response to my mild comments underscores that. And yes, everywhere in the literature it's given as having a guaranteed success rate if you work the steps and get a sponsor. I read the 12 promises and "How it Works" out loud for years; I do know what I'm talking about.

I'm not forcing you to respond or even read my comments. Feel free to get back to the topic at hand.

[madamesilverspurs]

20. My point is

that if it didn't work for you, don't demean those for whom it did and does work. Move on.


.

[Ron Obvious]

23. And my point is that for many people it's actually harmful

They promise guaranteed success ("they will always materialise if we work for them" ), and any failure is strictly due to the alcoholic themselves. It teaches unhealthy notions about the alcoholic being absolutely incapable of controlling themselves and must cede all control to the higher power.

I've heard people say that they would be afraid of crossing the road without checking with their sponsor and heard such statements greeted with enthusiastic applause.

It's as harmful and as anti-human as any religion and all but guarantees relapses for the vast majority of attendees. We have vastly superior methods of treatment these days. By comparison, AA is leechcraft.

Again, read the Atlantic article.

[madamesilverspurs]

27. I'll be sure to tell

my family members that they need to jettison their recovery and defer to your opinion -- NOT.
I've been grateful for over thirty years to have them back, healthy, and happy. You keep your opinion, I'll keep my gratitude.


Done.

[busterbrown]

30. I agree 100%

It might not be perfect, but it works... the two most important tenants of A.A. are.. You need to go to meetings and see/feel that you are not different from anyone else in the room (Identify) and that you help someone else ( Sponsor).. Staying out of your own selfish wants and needs by helping someone else.. It works and many, many Alcoholics have successful runs and stay sober for varying amount of years.. The problem, the main problem is...That people get well because tenants of A.A.work.. Problem is that... when one stops doing the things I mentioned above and quit going to meetings because their lives have become infinitely better..usually leads to relapse...

[pintobean]

32. The topic at hand

is unqualified people giving a bullshit diagnosis of a disease derived from watching a man for a few hours on TV.

Membership in AA is noted as the qualifier for the ability to make this diagnosis. It's more than fair to examine this.

[argyl]

24. I've seen sober for over 30 years.

Last edited Sun Sep 30, 2018, 12:29 AM - Edit history (1)

When I really bottomed out i got myself into a state treatment facility. Was introduced to AA there.

When I got out I immersed myself in the AA culture. The first year I'd stay sober then fall off the wagon. I'd always start with two beers but after a couple of days I was off to the races.

So my first year of AA wasn't a raging success but I was sober a little more often than I was drunk so it definitely screwed up my drinking.

And then I just got it. And I was an AA success story for the next 2 1/2 years.

I was still a heavy smoker and that was an addiction I really wanted to be rid of. Don't know about now but 30+ years ago an AA meeting was anything but a non smoking event.

So I figured I'd quit attending meetings until I'd quit smoking and was strong in that. And I quit the tobacco and was secure that I wouldn't relapse.

And I never went to another AA meeting. I do feel it played a role in me getting sober but the lifelong commitment wasn't for me.

It is a cult like organization in ways. One basic tenet is you can't stay sober without it. But I did and I've known others who did as well.




As an aside I had dreams where I'd been drinking for a number of years. Also dreams where I'd been smoking. Never dreams where I was doing both, though.

Don't have either anymore but I had the smoking dreams for a longer time than the drinking ones.

[Bluesaph]

7. I said same thing

He was under the influence of something. And he’s got those alcoholic cheeks for sure.

[kwijybo]

10. Mom Watched

She insisted he was on cocaine. She said one of the doctors that was a coke-head did the same sniffing/hanky/rub/repeat, combined with the loss of control.

[BigmanPigman]

18. A lot of people have been saying that on DU.

I do the SAME thing bit it isn't due to coke, it is due to living in southern CA and the allergies I have had since I moved here over 30 years ago. When my grandmother visited from Florida (also warm) she said she was doing it too and didn't know how I could stand it. I walk around with a tissue in my hand all the time.

If he was on anything it was when he got home since he would not have risked smelling like vodka in such a small, crowded room. And if he is a heavy drinker he would know that even vodka smells. I think he was stressed out and was performing the way the fucking moron told him to. He cried on Fux Ruse and tRump hated that so he remembered to yell a lot too (like Lindsey did).

[beastie boy]

11. Funny, I had exactly the same impression when I watched him.

No composure whatsoever, repeating himself and not making much sense in a situation where a sober individual would have made every effort to act exactly the opposite.

[dchill]

12. My opinion is vodka in the little water bottles.

The effect became more pronounced with time.

[LibDemAlways]

14. He wasn't sober and I was disappointed that

no Democratic Senator asked him about it because it was so obvious.

[3Hotdogs]

16. ---that, and I still want to know how he got the $250k to repay credit cards and if it was IRS

declared,

[royable]

21. Can you imagine the explosions of outrage from the Rethugs had one of the Democrats asked

if he was drunk or high, and would he submit to a breathalyzer and drug test on the spot?

For that matter, the explosions of outrage from the none-dare-challenge, ultra-entitled pretty boy himself.

[alphafemale]

33. What about you, Senator?

I'm rubber you're glue.

That was cringe time.

[LibDemAlways]

35. Those were telling moments.

What do you like to drink? Do you black out? Asked by a drunk to US Senators interviewing him for a lifetime appointment to the US Supreme Court. His entire performance was cringeworthy, but those rude comebacks should have been considered disqualifying on the spot, and he should have been held in contempt.

[malaise]

22. sNL had him sniffing

Yes

[Grammy23]

25. For someone who might know --

What was the deal with his tongue? He kept wallowing it around in his mouth, sticking it inside one cheek and then moving it around, almost like an involuntary reflex. He did this most noticeably when he was almost distraught. Had he been female, this movement would have already been discussed ad nauseum. It was so noticeable AND distracting. Just wondering if anyone else had an opinion about why he was doing that.

I was also thinking what on earth made him think turning the tables on the senators to ask them questions was a good strategy? I know judges have a lot of power. It is their domain, their kingdom. But he was not in his own territory. So how he thought acting haughty and arrogant was a winning demeanor beats the hell out of me. And focusing on questions about beer of all things? Here is a man accused of being incoherently intoxicated talking about how he liked beer back in 1982 and he STILL likes beer. Don’t you? What do you like to drink? As if everyone drinks alcohol.

This guy has a problem. I am not sure exactly what it is but I suspect it involves alcohol and lots of it and his entitled opinion of himself. He better hope he can hold on to the federal position he currently occupies and forget about being a Supreme Court Justice. Oh, and seek treatment for whatever is wrong.

[getagrip_already]

26. don't buy he was nipping.....

High functioning alcoholics don't drink during the day. Even under stress. They wait until the night. They know they can be detected in public, even when they aren't very drunk.

There is cover at night. Family may know, but they don't see, or at least they don't say. His wife is likely happy he drinks secretly at night; she doesn't have to interact with him because he hides, then goes to sleep. Two lives passing each other with a sigh of relief they don't need to talk.

So if he was doing anything, it wasn't alcohol. Coke I would accept. He had the look. Thirst, rapid eye movement, aggression, hyperactive. That makes sense.

Alcohol, not so much. I'm not saying he isn't an active drunk. I think he is. He just wan't drinking during his hearing.

[busterbrown]

31. i don't think he was drinking...

he was nipping, big difference...nipping just enough to last the hearing out...A Big difference!

[raccoon]

34. Good post except for the part about rosacea. You don't have to be an alcoholic to have it.

Good post except for the part about rosacea. You don’t have to be an alcoholic to have it.

It’s genetic and some people have it. They could have it without ever having touched alcohol. Google it if you don’t believe me.

However alcohol probably makes it worse, as it makes just about any condition worse if you abuse it.

[busterbrown]

37. Absolutely... But it can be a symptom... Agreed.

I'll reword it... Thanks.

[ismnotwasm]

36. Fuck

I knew this thread would turn into another “A.A. is a cult/religion/ doesn’t work/ thread I will probably trash..but good for you for starting it anyway

Kavenaugh—He does seem like a drunk

AA actually a successful anarchy. Really interesting structure. It literally can’t be a cult or a religion because there are no real rules, although individual groups certainly can be twisted into cult or religion like meetings—that is very true.

Anyone don’t believe me, I invite them to Fremonthall in Seattle. Tell me about all the rule followers and religious folk you see there.