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Mon Oct 29, 2018, 09:59 AM

Guns aren't shields

Everytime there is a shooting, we get the usual "more guns would have solved this problem". But guns don't shield people - they lead to, at best, an even larger hail of bullets.

This sounds so incredibly stupid to have to say. People need protection from guns. And guns don't provide that.

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Arrow 14 replies Author Time Post
Reply Guns aren't shields (Original post)
ProfessorPlum Oct 2018 OP
RainCaster Oct 2018 #1
Caliman73 Oct 2018 #6
aikoaiko Oct 2018 #14
hexola Oct 2018 #2
unblock Oct 2018 #3
uponit7771 Oct 2018 #4
pintobean Oct 2018 #5
meow2u3 Oct 2018 #7
ProfessorPlum Oct 2018 #8
pintobean Oct 2018 #9
ProfessorPlum Oct 2018 #10
pintobean Oct 2018 #11
ProfessorPlum Oct 2018 #12
pintobean Oct 2018 #13

Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:02 AM

1. We didn't cure polio by spreading the disease

That is what we expect to happen by adding more guns and hate.

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Response to RainCaster (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:37 AM

6. Actually, we didn't cure polio at all. We eradicated its spread.

And, we actually did it by spreading a dead version of the disease so that people's bodies could recognize and fight the disease without having to suffer its effects.

Totally get the arguments that guns are not a shield against other guns, but the polio thing is not analogous.

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Response to RainCaster (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 02:35 PM

14. Technically, we did spread the poliovirus in vaccines.


Albeit inactivated versions of the virus.

You might want to rethink the analogy.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:05 AM

2. The element of surprise is more powerful than the gun

 

Armed with the element of surprise - all armed defenders are at a disadvantage.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:09 AM

3. guns are inherently offensive weapons, not defensive.

any defensive value comes from either
(a) stopping a threat by shooting them before they can shoot (more) people or
(b) stopping a threat by threatening to shoot them and they decide to not to shoot (more) people.

(b) doesn't work very well in mass shooting situations because in nearly all of these, the shooter has accepted that they probably will not come out of it alive anyway. they're not likely to stop just because they're threatened with a death they were planning on anyway.

(a) doesn't always work well because the shooter who planned the attack has a huge tactical advantage of having planned and prepared for it, whereas those shooting in defense are not prepared to die and are unsure how many shooters there are, what weapons they have, how much ammo, etc.
moreover, the shooter in at least some of these cases have *actual* defense in the form of bulletproof vests and such.


some of the actual building defenses i've seen in videos are cool -- for instance, in an emergency, walls can come down in a number of areas, making it hard for a shooter to advance from one area to the next.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:10 AM

4. K&R, GREAT RETORT !!!

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:33 AM

5. Sometimes they are.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/birmingham-mcdonalds-shooting-father-shoots-and-kills-masked-gunman-who-opened-fire-at-alabama-restaurant/

An father dining with his children at McDonald's in Birmingham, Alabama, fatally shot a masked man who entered the fast food restaurant and opened fire, CBS affiliate WIAT reports.

Birmingham Police responded to the McDonald's at around 10:45 p.m. Sunday after receiving reports that multiple people had been shot. When an employee opened the door to let a father and his two sons out of the restaurant, a masked man entered. The man then began shooting. Investigators say it is not clear whether he intended to rob the McDonald's or was targeting someone inside.

The father then opened fire on the gunman, fatally wounding him. The unidentified dad and one of his kids, a minor, were also struck, but do not have life-threatening injuries.

The investigation is still ongoing, but based on the preliminary information, the father won't face any charges, the station reports.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 10:44 AM

7. This is definitely a case of justifiable homicide

The dad was trying to protect himself and his kids. Such proper uses of a gun are not as common as the NRA makes them out to be.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 11:35 AM

8. wow, what an effective shield

both the father and his child were shot anyway.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #8)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 11:55 AM

9. They're alive, along with the rest of the customers and employees

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Response to pintobean (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:06 PM

10. listen, of course

in these very very rare cases where the armed assailant is killed, that's a good thing.

Statistically though everyone would be so much safer if assailants had a long and difficult time arming themselves. That is a _real_ shield against bullets, and no one has to get shot even.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:30 PM

11. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the country.

If we actually enforced the laws we have, and handed out real punishment for violators, we wouldn't live in such a dangerous society. Until that happens, many of us will be armed. We can't wait for an understaffed and underpaid PD to respond to a 911 call. And new useless and unenforced laws won't change that.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 01:34 PM

12. you have my sympathies that you have to live in fear so much of the time.

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Response to ProfessorPlum (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 01:54 PM

13. I don't live in fear

I live prepared, knowing the odds say I'm fairly safe.

You're right about that not always working, though. We just lost a retired cop to a robbery attempt this morning. They shot each other, the former cop died. The robber was arrested at the hospital.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-st-louis-cop-shot-to-death-in-robbery-attempt/article_4fbbaf89-f6e0-5708-994d-1b0752ae478a.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Kids out early on a Monday morning committing armed robbery... wtf?

I'd be willing to bet that these aren't their first arrests, too.

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