General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUntil we have 67 Senators who will vote to impeach DT, attempts do so are futile.
Last edited Thu Nov 8, 2018, 07:44 PM - Edit history (2)
Two-thirds of the Senate must vote to convict before an official can be removed via impeachment.
We can't expect miracles, and condem our leaders in congress for being unable to deliver them in 2019.
We need to let the investigations bring the full corruption to light before it's put on the table. If law enforcement is doing the exposing of the crime, the GOP can't say it's a witch hunt - which they will if it's impeachment out of the gate.
Edited to add: Convicting the small players first is how mob investigators do it. You make the guy at the top sweat, and be more willing to avoid what he sees coming. Get his kids first. He might just resign.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)We hold lots of investigations, dirty him up more than he already is, and make him run in 2020 under an ethical cloud.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)and, if more comes out - and it will - he might start losing some of his GOP support in Congress.
And, if semi-morons like Don Jr, Jared Kushner, Eric Trump, Rudy Giuliani, etc are called to testify in public and on TV and make major gaffes and/or stab each other in the back, it could open up the floodgates.
htuttle
(23,738 posts)They'll be more sensitive to public pressure than usual.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)In 2016 only America's cities were majority blue. Now we know the outer suburbs have moved majority blue, and even America's rural areas are slightly lighter red.
We can thank the Republican congress for putting their intense corruption, extremism, cowardice and massive betrayals on full display, of course.
Now most will not only be much less afraid to cross Trump, but should be afraid NOT to oppose at least the worst of his vicious and dangerous actions. Plus, house members now have a Democratic majority they all can blame for failing to be nasty and extreme enough.
As for those Republican senators, whose determined betrayals threaten to bring down our democracy, their majority is now known to be very unlikely to survive 2020.
It's looking as if the electorate's role in creating our national emergency probably finally peaked, but we're now able to see it.
Nixon was never impeached - he resigned.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)We are dealing with a personality that has a tenuous grip on reality - even more so than Nixon.
catbyte
(34,174 posts)any means necessary, including betraying their oath of office, selling out the country, and protecting a treasonous criminal. If Nixon had had today's Republicans in the Senate, he never would've resigned.
And the more we refuse to punish Republicans for their criminality, the more criminal they will become.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)W_HAMILTON
(7,813 posts)Doing so will only embolden Republicans to commit more criminal acts.
History will not look kindly on anyone that enabled them.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No amount of evidence against Kavanaugh would make them vote against him.
History will not look kindly on our leaders if they waste time with impeachment hearings with no possibility of success.
Remember when the GOP voted dozens of times to "repeal and replace" with no chance whatsoever?
Fullduplexxx
(7,818 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The Senate voted not to impeach Bill Clinton.
Fullduplexxx
(7,818 posts)Bill clinton was impeached but the senate didnt have the votes to have him removed
malaise
(267,825 posts)Impach him
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Is that clearer?
Fullduplexxx
(7,818 posts)Bill Clinton was impeached by the house. The Senate voted not to convict him
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)honest.abe
(8,556 posts)Its the principle of the matter. The man is a lunatic, a crook and cheated his way into office. He is a perfect example of a President who should be impeached.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It would be as stupid as dozens of votes to "repeal and replace" during Obama's administration. We are certainly more adult than the tea party, I hope.
Or Gore still fighting for a recount to be accepted after SCOTUS ruled that no recount would be accepted.
We need to investigate and bring everything to light.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)That is the wrong message to send to America and the world.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No, it shows that we aren't as stupid as the tea partiers who thought that repeal and replace votes had a chance.
At least I hope we aren't.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)Its our duty to the world to impeach.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Which they will if we impeach right out of the gate.
You seem to think that anything short of impeachment procedings is somehow complicit on the part of Democrats.
Stupid futile gestures don't accomplish anything but people losing faith in their leaders' judgement.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)We should do a round of investigations then with that evidence impeach.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Go after his kids and low ranking members first, like mob investigators do.
That gets the ones higher up willing to turn. Then we may not need impeachment that they can block in the Senate.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)Gather some evidence then impeach.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,211 posts)hate impeachment, unless a strong case has been made, and that's why we need to wait on Mueller. We tried in WI to remove Scott Walker through a referendum, and independents saved his ass. Bill Clinton received some of his highest approval ratings during and after impeachment. It can backfire, and make Trump even stronger in 2020.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)This man is a complete lunatic and threat to the world.
I cannot imagine a more worthy individual of impeachment.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,211 posts)impeach because you don't like the POTUS. As I said, I think the Democrats' patience with regard to impeachment will be rewarded with even greater gains in 2020, especially if the Mueller report delivers.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)I give up with that kind of argument.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,211 posts)make against Trump were being made during Obama's presidency. They were insane, but the activist base were calling for Obama's impeachment over healthcare and immigration. "Argument" ended.
brer cat
(24,402 posts)in their leaders' judgment. If trump is impeached then the Senate votes against the House, it will be touted as vindication of trump. That isn't a win for anyone.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)in the Senate to convict. It was the investigation by the House Judiciary committee that produced the evidence
that provided the votes.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Is there by the graces of DT. They will not oppose him if they think their base will retaliate.
Jersey Devil
(9,863 posts)You have public hearings that force them to vote for impeachment due to the overwhelming evidence. If there is proof of money laundering, a quid pro quo with the russians - campaign money for Hillary emails - they will have to vote yes or every single one of them will lose their next election.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)We saw that with the Kavanaugh hearings.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)We don't get to try it twice. If we move to impeach, it should be with the goal of getting this monster out of the White House. Anything else is just noise. We're not going to get 67 votes in the Senate; McConnell & his caucus won't go against Trump for ANYTHING; definitely not voting to remove him from office. We can debate why that's true, but it's clearly very true.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,211 posts)They kept a USSC vacancy for a year just so they could seat one of their own. They have no shame.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)fills the voids left by abandonment of honor and duty. And that can work for us also.
I do of course agree 100% with Ehrnst. The Republicans have apparently normalized in many minds the corrupt use of the impeachment process as a political tool. That's both very wrong and very damaging to our nation, though, and we don't do that.
Our largest duty through all this will be to reestablish proper, principled working of government and to display it to the nation in order to restore trust and confidence.
Very unlike those Republicans who would love to feed their "red in tooth and claw" base by insisting on vengeance and punishment, as protectors of our democracy the Democratic Party has to consider how to limit the damage to the nation of removing a president who was elected and is still supported by many millions.
So, though there was a lot of argument for removing and prosecuting Nixon in the '70s, we reached bipartisan agreement to accept Nixon's resignation. In the '80s we even made a deal with the Republicans to allow Reagan (probably already showing his dementia) to remain in office by having a highly respected Republican senator come out of retirement to be his chief of staff. (We couldn't find one of those now even if Trump were directable, of course, so that won't be an option.)
There could be a situation in which we might, as some have suggested, have a duty to impeach as a statement to the nation -- even if we didn't have sufficient bipartisan agreement to remove. But without bipartisan leadership support, that would cause further anger and distrust, and we'd do our best to find another way to fulfill that duty.
Happily, the national vote is now showing cowardly and unprincipled Republicans in congress that most have even more to fear from crossing the electorate than crossing Trump. We now know eventual bipartisan agreement on the need to remove Trump from office has become far more possible.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)For one thing, it's risky to establish a precedent of not impeaching when a candidate is more than worthy of impeachment.
And forcing Republicans to defend non-conviction could be worthwhile.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Trump is a traitor who has obstructed justice, violated court orders and other laws, lies constantly, incites violence, kidnaps children, and so on. Sometimes we have to do the right thing just because.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)There are more GOP in the Senate now, and even less chance of convincing them to impeach than to vote against a SCOTUS pick...
Investigations are more effective and sensible. That way the GOP can't say it's a witch hunt, if law enforcement is the one doing the exposing...
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)IN 1998, the GOP announced that they were impeaching Clinton in the House and lost seats in a midterm. That was one of the few midterms where the party that held the White House picked up seats in the House.
I am not in favor of impeaching trump unless we have the votes to convict and remove
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Let's see what Mueller has to say.
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Just understand that facts do not matter to GOP senators and you will not likely find 17 to 19 GOP senators who will flip. They are too afraid of being attacked by trump and being primaried
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And I'm not convinced that it wouldn't be politically expedient. As I said before, force Republicans to defend a criminal and maybe splinter their caucus.
Poiuyt
(18,087 posts)Exactly
George II
(67,782 posts)....I don't want to put republicans in a position to set a precedent like that.
A similar outcome might happen if we take action (impeachment) that we know ahead of time would fail.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)We lost seats because the Senate map this year was always very unfavorable.
Voting against Kavanaugh was clearly the right thing to do. The only ethical thing to do.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...vindictive and petty.
I'm sure the impeachment would be successful (in the House) but conviction is virtually impossible and fail (in the Senate) Failing to get a conviction would not be a good thing for Democrats.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Nixon had nothing on Trump. Those drawing comparisons to Clinton are just being silly, as there's no comparison whatsoever. He lied about having an affair.
Public support for impeachment of Trump is already remarkably high and Mueller has much more to report, I'm sure. Also, impeachment hearings would draw out a lot more information. The case can easily be made that *not* convicting Trump would be criminal.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)I truly wonder what the revelation of dozens upon dozens of charges against Trump for crimes myriad in nature, overwhelming evidence of crimes having been committed, each one of them individually wrapped and delivered by a frenzied media force, many of whom relishing the opportunity to strike back at the fascist pig.
We haven't entered that world yet. It may be around the corner. The Senate may not have a choice here. We're so used to hearing "fake news" and "witch hunt" without a corresponding retort from Mueller that it has dampened our spirits. I think Mueller is going to pack a wallop that no one could even fathom at this moment.
Maybe impeachment won't be the problem we imagine it will be.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)still_one
(91,965 posts)any other information the House finds during its investigation is known, we cannot assume that all the republicans in the Senate will not necessarily vote to convict based on that information. As deceitful and bad as the republicans have been if the information is as bad and as incriminating as I suspect it will be, especially in regard to engaging a foreign power to interfere in our election, aong with compromising our national security, I do not think we can assume we won't have the 2/3 votes.
More than that though, if the information is incriminating and serious enough, it would be a dereliction of duty if impeachment was NOT pursued in the House, even if it could not be guaranteed that the Senate would convict. The House is the representative of the public, and it is their responsibility to pursue it if the charges are as bad as they appear to be, regardless of the outcome of the trial in the Senate.
Tribalceltic
(1,000 posts)Shine a light on the Evil that has happened.
Make the Republican Senators explain Why they allowed it to happen.
It is time we took control of the narrative.
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)One can have multiple investigations without impeachment hearings.
If law enforcement is doing the exposing, the GOP can't say it's a witch hunt - which they can if it's impeachment out of the gate.
Enough votes need to be lined up or realistically expected even before the Impeachment trial starts.
No way enough of these horrible Repug. senators would go along.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)it could be premature without all the evidence.
haele
(12,581 posts)But I get your point. However, who knows what cowards will do, and we all know the GOP is full of weasels out for themselves. Given throwing Drumpf out or facing more angry backers than Trumpteers, we might get a few votes our way.
Haele
dawg day
(7,947 posts)for lying to congress under oath.
Putting Trump's sons and DeVos brother in jail would make up for a lot.
Catherine Vincent
(34,485 posts)Those bastard republicans in the House voted impeachment anyway.
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)I am not in favor of this stunt unless we have the votes
honest.abe
(8,556 posts)Bill got a BJ. Trump is an evil psychopath bent on being America's first Dictator.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,369 posts)After all, its futile...
Congress should investigate the shit out of Trump, his administration and his family. If the evidence warrants (and how could it not), impeachment hearing must be held, futility or not, because holding the president accountable IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
maxrandb
(15,192 posts)There is a constitutional requirement to impeach.
Let the American people see the direct and overwhelming evidence of this shitgibbons crimes and then dare the Retrumplicans to aquit him.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Poiuyt
(18,087 posts)I want Trump to go down in history as having been impeached
Buckeyeblue
(5,491 posts)Which is why they did nothing to push back for the last two years. Was 2016 an anomaly or was the country really moving that far right? If the dems hadn't taken the house back, the next two years would have been a full sprint to implement their agenda to end SSI, workers rights, abortion rights, everything.
But now with the dems dominating the midterms, repugs have to start pushing back against 45 if they want to save their political future. If the repugs wanted to get rid of 45 they could impeach him quickly at the start of next year. The dems would carry most of the blame and for those Senate repugs who went along with it, they would have almost 2 years for it to blow over. Then they have a lame duck president who cannot win the nomination. And that would give the rank and file plenty of time to raise money to make a big push in 2020.
The deplorables will scream but they will get over it.
Odoreida
(1,549 posts)Wintryjade
(814 posts)davekriss
(4,608 posts)I like the idea that the truth about Trump comes out on the national stage. We wont get a conviction, but we will hear the real truth about this horrible man.
book_worm
(15,951 posts)and see how it affects their elections especially if there is a strong case for removing Trump from office.
vsrazdem
(2,176 posts)Once that comes out they will have to make a decision. In my opinion there will be impeachable offenses and they will vote for impeachment. The senate will have to have a trial and it is for sure that will become public. It is the public sentiment that will determine how the senators vote, not Trump. It the evidence is overwhelming, there is no way they are going to put their jobs on the line for Trump.