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MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:19 PM Nov 2018

It is completely unacceptable for news networks to announce winners before all the votes are counted

This happened in Florida, Georgia and Arizona. Now we have a complete and unnecessary mess going on. When will this country get on top of these election nightmares? Count all the votes before deciding winners and losers seems pretty simple to me!

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It is completely unacceptable for news networks to announce winners before all the votes are counted (Original Post) MoonRiver Nov 2018 OP
I was explaining that to some GA trumpkins today liberal N proud Nov 2018 #1
The first amendment sure is a pesky little thing, isn't it. n/t Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #2
No. But when elections are being decided, it is unethical, imho, to give out incomplete info. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #3
generally i see media outlets calling them "projected winners" unblock Nov 2018 #7
The media's influence in elections is huge. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #8
i don't see what the big deal with "un-conceding" is. unblock Nov 2018 #20
Who cares if they remember? Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #29
Yet he's still in the race. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #40
So you think news media should keep us in the dark for our own good? Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #11
I think the media, with all its resources, should not announce winners MoonRiver Nov 2018 #14
They are not announcing winners. Only the Secretaries of State Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #18
I disagree. I believe the media should be very careful when announcing MoonRiver Nov 2018 #21
You can believe what you want - but we're back to where we started - that pesky 1st Amendment Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #22
Well, if the media wants to be taken seriously, they should reconsider MoonRiver Nov 2018 #24
When you are recommending the media withhold information for political purposes - Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #30
They are NOT doing their job. That's the point. Has absolutely nothing to do with 1st. Amendment. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #32
It has everything to do with the first amendment Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #35
Whatever Toad. I'm done with this stupid argument. Bye MoonRiver Nov 2018 #39
1st Amendment and ethical don't always go hand and hand. Kaleva Nov 2018 #34
They need to hedge very carefully - this is a projection based on current information YessirAtsaFact Nov 2018 #4
They do that already. Mariana Nov 2018 #23
One would think media should have taken a lesson from2000 Pres race FloridaBlues Nov 2018 #5
One would think. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #9
They never called Arizona, Georgia, or Florida Senate Tom Rivers Nov 2018 #6
I'm talking about the media and their "projected winner" announcements. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #10
You're apparently talking about 3 states with 4 races still in doubt today. mr_lebowski Nov 2018 #15
THIS ... Amazing how quickly folks forget things sometimes ... (nt) mr_lebowski Nov 2018 #12
"Apparent Winner" is like "Allegedly Shot" marylandblue Nov 2018 #13
Good point. MoonRiver Nov 2018 #16
You're both being silly ... mr_lebowski Nov 2018 #17
Wouldn't mind except it undermines faith in elections marylandblue Nov 2018 #33
Exactly. It's meaningless. Mariana Nov 2018 #28
Since a network declaring winner has no impact of the vote count... brooklynite Nov 2018 #19
The narrative is the problem. Many are not sophisticated enough to... Garrett78 Nov 2018 #27
People do need to learn that not everything the news media says is correct. n/t PoliticAverse Nov 2018 #37
So the media should be protecting us against our own stupidity? Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #42
Calling close races prematurely can make the media look like the stupid ones. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #43
That's their choice. If they fall on their faces too frequently, they lose viewers. Ms. Toad Nov 2018 #44
People don't need to be protected Codeine Nov 2018 #46
I don't disagree, per se, but close races with a ton of outstanding ballots shouldn't be called. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #47
In close contests, yes. But many races can be called early. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #25
Happened in New Mexico too. Nt Quixote1818 Nov 2018 #26
Yes, I forgot about that one. Was Montana another one? MoonRiver Nov 2018 #31
No it isn't. What doesn't the announcement have to do with the "unnecessary mess"? PoliticAverse Nov 2018 #36
Did anyone notice MFM008 Nov 2018 #38
hmmm elmac Nov 2018 #41
At least now we know mail voting isn't real. Corvo Bianco Nov 2018 #45

unblock

(51,982 posts)
7. generally i see media outlets calling them "projected winners"
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:28 PM
Nov 2018

at some point in their broadcast, they usually mention something about the process where secretaries of state actually certify the results of the elections, etc.

but to some extent we all use the shorthand of taking the apparent results as sufficiently likely to be certified as to accept them as fast.

technically, we haven't won the house yet, we still need to wait for a lot of races to be officially certified. it's just that there's very little reason to think the results will change, except in the few remaining close races.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
8. The media's influence in elections is huge.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:36 PM
Nov 2018

Gillum conceded after all the "projected winner" crap was announced. Maybe we need to instruct our candidates not to concede for a couple of days after the election, just in case. It's hard to un-concede because people remember those speeches.

unblock

(51,982 posts)
20. i don't see what the big deal with "un-conceding" is.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:48 PM
Nov 2018

concession speeches are informal, not legally binding, and are just an opportunity to be polite, show some good sportsmanship, and to thank everyone who helped the campaign.

but they on no way bar the candidate from serving if they are, perhaps surprisingly, declared the winner.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
29. Who cares if they remember?
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:28 PM
Nov 2018

Concession speeches have NO more legal impact than a campaign speech does.

A better use of your time would bt to advocate for people to attend a civics class so that they have some understanding of the political process and the role media plays.

Aside from the role of media, if you believe Gillum conceded based on media's projection of a winner you are deluding yourself. Gillum has his own staff members who are experienced in election projections, and he conceded based on their advice - not reports in the media. The timing of his concession speech was similar to the projections, because everyone was working off the same flawed assumptions about how many ballots were outstanding. Doing the math is trivial, if you have an accurate total of outstanding ballots.

Personally, I don't care about media projections at all - aside from not calling national races while the polls are still open in any state. I don't want our candidates conceding until alll of the votes are counted out of respect for all of those who worked so hard for the choice. That has happened to me - and it is a real slap in the face. My request is purely to respect for the workers to wait until all of the votes they rounded up are counted.

Unconceding is no big deal - unless you cede that argument to the Republicans.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
40. Yet he's still in the race.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:13 PM
Nov 2018

And thank goodness. I strongly hope he wins.

But the media calling his race as a projected a win for his opponent has not cost him his seat.

If he wins, people will remember.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
11. So you think news media should keep us in the dark for our own good?
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:38 PM
Nov 2018

That's just silly.

Or, perhaps, you think only people with reasonable math skills should be in on the secret.

The information is publically availablke on every Secretary of State's website. I did my own prediction of Ohio's gubernatorial race about 5 minutes before the media reported the same result by working out how many ballots were yet to be counted, where they were, and which candidate they were likely to break for.

Just because Republicans with a good sense for the message their base wants to hear have gotten out in front with their own messagingis no reason to withhold analysis of publically available information from the rest of us.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
14. I think the media, with all its resources, should not announce winners
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:40 PM
Nov 2018

until all the votes are counted. Seems simple and honest to me.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
18. They are not announcing winners. Only the Secretaries of State
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:45 PM
Nov 2018

Several days after that, after provisional ballots are verified and counted, after military ballots (that are allowed, at least in some instances, to arrive late).

The media is projecting who they believe will win based on publically available information and modeling.

Frankly, that's their job.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
21. I disagree. I believe the media should be very careful when announcing
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:14 PM
Nov 2018

PROJECTED winners before all the votes are counted.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
24. Well, if the media wants to be taken seriously, they should reconsider
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:21 PM
Nov 2018

projecting election results before all the votes are counted. Somehow you think I disapprove of the 1st Amendment. WRONG.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
30. When you are recommending the media withhold information for political purposes -
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:29 PM
Nov 2018

and call it immoral and unethical for them to make projections, yes, I think you lack the proper respect for the first amendment. That's the same kind of language Trump uses to refer to journalists who are just doing their job.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
35. It has everything to do with the first amendment
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:45 PM
Nov 2018

Their job is to investigate, analyze, and report the news. Making projections on election night involves all three.

Anytime moral pronouncements are made about reporters doing their jobs (i.e. suggesting they are immoral or unethical) it is an attack on the first amendment.

YessirAtsaFact

(2,064 posts)
4. They need to hedge very carefully - this is a projection based on current information
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:24 PM
Nov 2018

The results may change if the outstanding votes are significantly different from the votes that have already been counted, blah blah.

Was Arizona called? There are only 83% of the votes in now.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
23. They do that already.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:20 PM
Nov 2018

Anyone who thinks those projections are anything else just isn't paying attention.

Tom Rivers

(459 posts)
6. They never called Arizona, Georgia, or Florida Senate
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:28 PM
Nov 2018

Only one that was ever called was Florida Governor and that was only as "Apparent Winner".

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
10. I'm talking about the media and their "projected winner" announcements.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:38 PM
Nov 2018

People take those statements very seriously.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
15. You're apparently talking about 3 states with 4 races still in doubt today.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:41 PM
Nov 2018

Only ONE did the networks ever give a "projected/apparent winner" for. DeSantis was Apparent/Projected (one or the other ... 'projected' being the 'stronger' term).

The other three ... nope.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
13. "Apparent Winner" is like "Allegedly Shot"
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:40 PM
Nov 2018

You can't be allegedly shot, you either have a bullet in you or don't.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
17. You're both being silly ...
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 06:43 PM
Nov 2018

Being shot is something that happens instantly.

Of course you can project an 'apparent winner'.

For example, when the Steelers were up 52-21 with 5 seconds left in last nights game ... they were the 'apparent winner'. 5 seconds later, they were 'the winner'.

Nothing wrong with that terminology.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
33. Wouldn't mind except it undermines faith in elections
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:40 PM
Nov 2018

And if the difference is 52-21, then no problem. But if the score is 28-27 and the losing team is in field goal range, then it's premature.

They just shouldn't be calling close elections.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
28. Exactly. It's meaningless.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:25 PM
Nov 2018

How does anyone read or hear "apparent winner" or "projected winner" or any similar phrasing, and take it as an absolute final declaration of the result?

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
27. The narrative is the problem. Many are not sophisticated enough to...
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:24 PM
Nov 2018

...get that vote counts overturning a prematurely called election is not cheating at work.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
42. So the media should be protecting us against our own stupidity?
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:29 PM
Nov 2018

I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
44. That's their choice. If they fall on their faces too frequently, they lose viewers.
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:40 PM
Nov 2018

It still doesn't make it their job to protect us from our own stupidity.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
46. People don't need to be protected
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:31 PM
Nov 2018

from their own ignorance or lack of sophistication. Projections are estimates, nothing more, and they always make this clear in the broadcasts.

If people can’t figure that out then they’re at fault, not the media.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
36. No it isn't. What doesn't the announcement have to do with the "unnecessary mess"?
Fri Nov 9, 2018, 07:45 PM
Nov 2018

The mess is in the vote counting nothing to do with the announcing.

California can count votes until Dec 7th (see: https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article220957360.html )
Do you really want to prevent the news media from announcing any results until then?

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