Comic Book Industry Reacts To Bill Maher Dissing Stan Lee And Comic Books

[JonLP24]

Last edited Sat Nov 17, 2018, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Television personality Bill Maher penned an op-ed on his blog railing against the comic book industry in the wake of the passing of former Marvel Comics publisher Stan Lee. Maher dropped lines like "I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that Donald Trump could only get elected in a country that thinks comic books are important," along with mocking fans who were mourning the loss of the beloved comic creator.

"But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff," Maher ranted. "And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature. And because America has over 4,500 colleges – which means we need more professors than we have smart people – some dumb people got to be professors by writing theses with titles like Otherness and Heterodoxy in the Silver Surfer."

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

https://comicbook.com/marvel/amp/2018/11/17/bill-maher-comics-industry-reactions/

[pintobean]

1. Maher, always the douchebag.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

189. What crawled up his ass and died ?

[Skidmore]

2. Frankly, I don't get

carrying comic books or cartoons as an interest into adulthood. There were many activities that I pursued as a child which I left behind as my responsibilities in life increased. Comics was one of those activities.

[SWBTATTReg]

4. Comics aren't just for kids either. If you want to knock comics as a hobby from ...

childhood to adulthood, think of basketball, or football, trains, or other similar pursuits. At least be fair and list the other crap that's carried over from childhood too.

[Guppy]

10. playing sports

like basketball is not carrying childhood into adulthood. It is a wonderful game to play and offers great exercise. Sports are really meant to be played in your twenties when your body is at its peak. Father time catches up with you at 40.

[Blue_true]

6. I like political cartoons that make social commentary. nt

[Dave Starsky]

23. I used to love comic books.

But now they are pretty much written by, for, and about idiots. The publishers know their audience can't read and has zero attention span, and so they pander directly to that. That's why Batman went from being "The Darknight Detective", on par with Sherlock Holmes, to being just another dumb high-tech thug.

[edhopper]

26. There are plenty of great

non-superhero comics not from marvel or DC.

[Blue_true]

196. True. But they are harder and harder to find.

When I was a kid, any comic book that I bought was good and I used to read the Sunday comics from the first to the last. All the old stuff was good and taught moral lessons.

[edhopper]

199. Not at all

the internet is full of sites that discuss and promote such work.

If you tell me what kind of thing you are interested in I could suggest a few.

[Blue_true]

201. I am really into storytelling that looks at right versus wrong or good versus evil.

Today, it seems the moral message that wrong should never prevail over right is clouded in literature and certainly in the Press.

[edhopper]

209. I would say that

Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips did a series of books under the "Criminal" title that are very ambiguous noir stories.

https://www.amazon.com/Coward-Criminal-Vol-Ed-Brubaker/dp/078512439X

[Cuthbert Allgood]

72. At least you feel better about yourself

Try read King, Bendis, Gaiman, Aaron and not be a tool about comics before you claim they are written for idiots.

[Dave Starsky]

79. Hey, like I said, I used to be a fan.

But I stopped reading them about 25 years or so ago when they became ever shorter, ever more expensive, and ever more obviously written at a sub-fifth-grade level.

I'm familiar with all those names you mention. I still occasionally check out some comics on Hoopla. But I'm not impressed with almost everything that is out there today.

[Blue_true]

195. I have not read them, but looked at more recent comic books.

The old stuff that I read as a kid was far, far superior and actually taught moral lessons as part of the stories. The old stuff was true story telling. The new stuff mostly look like trash.

[Dave Starsky]

208. Pick up any popular comic book from the "Silver Age".

That is, the 1950s-1960s. Let's say you choose a Superman comic. Now buy a NEW Superman comic, and compare the two.

The first thing you notice is that the old comic book is considerably longer. Probably 60 to 80 pages, as compared to modern comics which aren't even half that. There are several stories, most (if not all) of them self-contained, in that they are not part of some rambling serialized bullshit story that has gone on for months, if not years.

The second thing you will notice is that there are a ton of (gasp!) WORDS on the pages in the old comic, and some of those words even have more than three syllables, and there just might be a few that readers would have to (horrors!) look up in a DICTIONARY (oh, God, not that!) to find out what they mean. Your new Superman comic features minimal text at around the fourth-grade level of reading. Most of the content is highly stylized images of characters just beating each other up.

Finally, there is the quality of the narrative itself. Superman isn't an idiot in the old comic book. He occasionally uses his knowledge of history, classic art or literature, and even SCIENCE (oh, for fuck's sake, not that!) to get the edge on an adversary. Today's Superman, again, operates almost entirely at a fourth-grade level of scholarship. Apparently the schools are also terrible on Krypton.

Anyway, that's my rant about modern comics. As always, there are a few exceptions. But they are mostly garbage.

[edhopper]

24. Says someone who never heard of

Sandman or Maus or Will Eisner or Fun Home or Persepolis or....

It was either Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman who said. People write stories and novels and we award them the highest prizes, people produce art and we put it in museums. Put the two together and we consider it just for children.

Last year the graphic novels "March" by Rep. John Lewis about the Selma march won the National Book Award.

[Hekate]

128. Spot on

[Stargazer09]

192. Exactly!

I was never interested in comics as a kid. As an adult, I picked up a couple just out of curiosity. It didn’t take long before I fell in love with the merging of story and art.

[Blue_true]

197. No one dispute that there are meaningful comic strips being done today.

But, some people have pointed out that solid, meaningful comics are much harder to come across today and most of what is being done appeals to the lowest common denominator, maybe that is what Maher was trying to say, but instead put his foot in his mouth and insulted the memory of a great innovator and storyteller.

[edhopper]

198. That is true od all media

including movies, books and TV.
And it is actually much easier today to find meaningful comics than in the past.

[Blue_true]

200. True about all media. That is what I meant by trivial in my first post that ticked off a few people

My intent was not to single out comics in particular, but to point out that in all forms of media, the quality of the storytelling seems to have sunk. It used to be that I read something or watched a movie and came away with a moral lesson or pondering particular topics. Today, I see media that leaves an ambiguous image of right versus wrong and that wrong should never prevail, ever. The Press is notorious in that regard, with it's equating of small insignificant mistakes to criminality.

[USALiberal]

48. I am sure there are many hobbies you don't get.....

but I bet there are things you enjoy that others would not get either.

[gulliver]

66. Even stuff like Heavy Metal, Fat Freddie's Cat or graphic novels no longer appeal to me.

I've got Dostoevsky, Dickens, Austen, Hemingway stuff I haven't gotten to and only so much time to do it.

[Adrahil]

107. As opposed to what?

Wayching other people play sports on TV? Playing golf? Fishing?

Lots and lots of responsible adults read comics. It’s not my interest, but we all have our interests. Personally, I’d prefer comics over watching sportsball.

[Polybius]

129. How about video games?

I still like the oldies.

[obamanut2012]

171. That's nice

I never get folks who like to criticize people for their interests and likes.

[Oneironaut]

3. That's an ironically stupid thing to say.

I'm not a fan of comic books, but Bill Maher is being a pretentious jerk here. I wonder what "kid stuff" Bill Maher does on his own time? I'm sure his head isn't buried in a thesaurus 24/7. I think people who complain about others "doing kid stuff" are miserable themselves, and want to spread the misery to everyone else. I stopped trying to prove how "grown up" I was when I actually grew up.

[USALiberal]

49. I agree, everyone has things that they enjoy. To each their own. nt

[tavernier]

140. He enjoys criticizing others,

for their hobbies, their beliefs, their traditions, most anything that doesn’t match up with his personal lifestyle.
I enjoy him as a comedian, but beyond that, there isn’t much I take away from him.

[meadowlander]

163. It's the pothead calling the kettle black if you ask me.

I don't really understand grown ups who like professional wrestling or NASCAR but I don't think the death of a major icon in one of those areas would be an occasion to stand up and call people who do like them immature morons.

Maher's being an asshole on at least three different levels here:
1. Stan Lee through the creation of X-Men has done more to progress LGBTQ rights than Maher ever will.
2. There's nothing wrong with adults carrying forward passions from their childhood as long as they keep it in perspective and don't hurt anyone else. I still play D&D in my 40s and consider that time better spent than playing golf or tennis or going shopping.
3. Even if there was something wrong with liking comic books, why bring it up on the occasion of someone's death other then to get cheap headlines for yourself?

Also:
4. Reading comic books is still at least reading something. If Maher's problem is with people not reading anymore, why not start with people who play iPhone games 24/7?

[Blue_true]

5. As a kid, I read plenty of comic books.

As an adult, I don't waste time on them. I will occasionally read strips like Doonesbury, Bloom County and Opus, because they make wise observations about conditions in society.

I am ok with Stan Lee. He was a innovator.

Other than that, I agree 100% with Maher. People today immerse themselves in trivial literature and often pass on deep-thinking writings about society and it's various conditions. Also, kids are going to college with limited vocabularies and an inability to properly spell and write, not everything that is importantant in life can be googled.

[JonLP24]

7. I have never got into comics

Only a tiny percentage of the population have deep encyclopedic knowledge but people were mourning the loss of Stan Lee and he writes a ridiculous OP ed.

Read it in full
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/9xt0dl/bill_maher_writes_an_obit_for_stan_lee_it_goes/

You agree "some dumb people got to be professors" and how could he be the judge of that?

[lunatica]

56. If comic books are filling the void for a good education

it isn’t the comic books that are to blame. Just saying.

[Codeine]

94. There's nothing that prevents one from reading Proust

and also reading Green Lantern. The notion that one precludes the other is silly. I have a garage so full of books I can’t wedge a car into it, but I am not ashamed of the fact that I find comics to be exhilarating and inspiring reading.

And if we’re being honest, it isn’t as if classic literature and philosophically-challenging writing were being consumed en masse until suddenly being crowded out by capes and cowls and Harry Potter’s wand-waving antics. Most people have never really been interested “deep-thinking writing about society” at any point.

The kids who end up in college unable to spell and without vocabularies worthy of an adult aren’t the kids who read comics, btw. They’re the kids who read nothing at all, who were raised by adults who read nothing at all. Most people never crack open a book, comic or otherwise.

[kcr]

148. It's a shame your immersion in deeper literature

didn't teach you the difference between "it's," and "its."

[Blue_true]

149. I write as a hobby, I know the difference.

One of the problems is that some spellcheck routines divert to its instead of it's in some syntax cases and if one does not catch the problem, it stays.

Thanks for the mini lecture, although I assure you that I don't need it.

[kcr]

152. Ah, spellcheck

Well, I'm sure some other pseudo-intellectual like Maher will rant about how people relying on spell check are the downfall of society, and that's why we have Trump. We all get our turn in the crosshairs.

[Blue_true]

154. No, not really, a person just has to pay attention.

I clearly wasn't, because when I write, I have to change its to it's often on my computer, then override the vocabulary default to keep it. Pointing that out to me was a wasted insult, people should be able to do better.

[kcr]

156. I'd say the same to those insulting others based on their taste in entertainment

They should be able to do better. I don't care about grammar and spelling. I wasn't pointing out your mistake just because I generally like to nitpick other people's mistakes. I don't think it was a wasted insult to point out how, in going out of your way to point out how unintelligent others are in their choice of entertainment, you were careless in the appearance of your own post.

[Blue_true]

161. Read my original post.

I personally find no value in reading comic books. I honestly don't care if other people do.

Do comic books make people stupid? I say no, some of America's best literature was written in the age of comic books. Plus "stupid" is very conditional. My next youngest brother owns a farm and fixes his own equipment and vehicles. If someone gave us equations to solve or chemicals to blend, I would mercilessly smoke him. But if someone brought in a car that isn't running right, I stand there like an idiot while he diagnoses and fix the problem. So who is stupid?

It is possible to look at a narrow part of society and see everything wrong, then find a scapegoat. Why aren't kids today spelling or writing better? Maybe it is the age that they grew up in. When I was growing up, I got drilled in school on spelling, sentence formation and paragraph formation. But when I write, I often allow a sentence to run on because that conveys the message that I want to convey.

I had a chemistry professor in college who was a hardass about students knowing how to use slide-rules and take the calculation to four significant digits past the decimal point. Turns out that I did not know how to use a sliderules because at my high school, we were taught to solve equations longhand and seldom went past two significant digits. Was he right, or was I right to feel that knowing the equation and how to solve it was more important than what I used to run out the calculation. I can promise you that people can make a case for either position, it is the same with Maher and comic books or my feeling that they do nothing important for me (versus your clearly different view).

[Adrahil]

158. Read what you want, but don't be a jerk about it.

I'm not in to comic books. Never have been. But I do know some adults who are. Two of them have PhD's and are DEANS at universities.

Don't assume that everyone who reads comics as adults doesn't read "serious" literature.

I would be surprised if you didn't have a have a pass time that could be poked fun at.

[Blue_true]

165. I should have defined "trivial" literature better.

Some comic books are trivial garbage, others are thought provoking and cause introspection and questioning of accepted concepts. The same goes for short stories, novellas and novels.

I think people today read too much crap literature and not literature that cause them to self-examine and question.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

8. I wonder

I wonder if Maher and the DUers here dissing comics have read Art Spiegelman’s “Maus”? Or (US Representative) John Lewis’ “March”?

[Dave Starsky]

27. The examples you give are rare exceptions.

Most comic books are flat-out garbage, and you know it.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

31. Sturgeon's Law

“Ninety percent of anything is crap.” And that applies to more than just comics of science fiction.

[Dave Starsky]

38. I was about to invoke ol' Ted, myself.

I believe he actually said 95% of science fiction was crap. But I suspect that among comic books today, it's a lot higher than that.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

39. You seem to harp on comics in particular

I believe when Sturgeon said anything he meant everything.

[Mosby]

93. You know sturgeons law is made up, right?

It's not science based.

It came about as his response to critics of scifi, by saying that most mainstream lit is also crap.

[thucythucy]

113. Absolutely.

People hear Mozart and they think all classical music is sublime. What they've never heard is the music written by all the hacks contemporaneous to Mozart, whose music we don't hear because it was garbage.

Same applies for theatre, movies, pop music... How many contemporaries of Shakespeare are staged today? A handful at best.

I suspect the same is true for Comics or graphic novels.

One might just as well castigate Americans for watching TV. What about it Bill? Isn't 90% of TV mostly mindless pap? Maybe it's his medium, and not comics, that bear the brunt of responsibility for the dumbing down we've seen in recent years?

[Codeine]

134. One of the bits I liked about the film Amadeus

was when Salieri kept playing snippets of his own compositions to the doctor only to have them go unrecognized, while just a few notes of a Mozart composition and boom; instantly known.

[underpants]

9. Bad timing. I'm not saying I agree or not but there were two things I never got into as a kid

Comic books or video games (where talking Pong/Atari era). Just never got the point.
I'd be lost in this day and age I guess.

I'm a fan of Bill's. Love his show and have seen him at I guess it's a concert. Don't always agree with him but I think he's good.

[JonLP24]

12. I still play video games

This has been a great quarter with Assassin's Creed Odyssey, Red Dead Redemption, and Fallout 76. Just Cause 3 in December. Some of these games are too complex or the content isn't usually made for kids. Nintendo makes kid games.

[Archae]

33. I agree 100%.

I still enjoy graphic novels at times, and I just bought the new "Spyro: Reignited" videogame, and I'm having a blast with it.

And in 2 weeks I turn 59.

[UniteFightBack]

52. You don't play any games on your smartphone? There are a lot of puzzle and strategy games....

brain games...card games...trivia.... you name it.

[underpants]

96. Nope

Never really saw the appeal. My wife got to Candy crush 30,000 or something. Just not my thing.

[smirkymonkey]

153. I'm with you. Two things that never really held my interest either.

I really enjoy Bill's show most of the time. I agree that he can be arrogant and really put his foot in it sometimes, but I don't really understand the uproar in this case. I guess I really don't see the societal importance of comic books. Especially not for adults.

[JonLP24]

155. Aside from blaming comic book culture for Trump

This can probably explain the uproar.

BILL MAHER’S ADULTING: A REBUTTAL

Am I a writer? A teacher? A coach? An athletic director? A father? A husband? A son? A brother? A Christian? An intellectual? A gamer? An avid consumer of graphic literature?

Yes. Yes, I am. All of them, though this year, to be quite honest, I haven’t felt like I’ve been good at any one of these things in particular. I’ve thought about cutting back where I can, and I may still do that. But today, of all the things I do and define myself as, today, I’m a supporter of graphic literature.

Each year, I teach graphic literature to my high school students. They much prefer it to Shakespeare, and get this–it helps them get into Shakespeare. In fact, the graphic novel we chose to read as a class was Tom King’s The Vision. In it, he quotes Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice.

But here’s what gets my blood boiling: Bill Maher’s throwing shade at an entire sub-culture of adults and children alike for appreciating graphic literature. His post (which you can read in about thirty seconds, because that’s apparently all the wisdom this man has), insinuates that comic books are juvenile, and should be put away to make room for “big-boy books without pictures.” His argument is that words and pictures, when combined, are worth less than they are apart. Think about it–to dismiss graphic literature as anything other than art, one must also argue that drawing, inking, and painting are not art, nor are any written works. No one would argue that the Mona Lisa is for children, nor The Fall of Icarus, The Starry Night, The Last Supper, nor any work by Salvador Dali. No one would argue that Don Quixote, The Great Gatsby, The Sun Also Rises, Moby Dick, Hamlet, or War and Peace were childish forms of entertainment. But somehow, Billy seems to think that the combination of the two reduces their aesthetic and literary merit rather than being an avenue with a particularly wide range of options to say intelligent things.

Yes, there are several insightful novels that deal with social change, that challenge our society to move forward. You know what else does that? Comic books. How could something so trivial as costumed superheros have anything important to say about life? About family? About love? About bigotry? About tolerance? About acceptance? About loneliness? About loss? About grief? About suffering? About perseverance? About chivalry?

I’d argue that this “childish” pass-time has done infinitely more than Billy ever has to move our country forward. Seriously, Billy. What do you do for our country other than patronizing people, inciting division between political parties and making sweeping generalizations about things you don’t understand?

(Snip)

The Vision by Tom King–a great look at “the American dream,” the desire to fit in, self-identity, and the poisonous effects of simple-minded bigotry.

Amazing Spider-Man #36 by J. Michael Straczynski–Marvel’s response to the fall of the twin towers. An incredibly insightful look into humanity and the American spirit.

Civil War by Mark Millar–a fascinating political debate about the intersection between individual and governmental rights.

Maus by Art Spiegleman–more a memoir than a novel, this poignant reflection not only deals with a holocaust survivor’s tale, it also speaks to the difficulty of son relating to father and mental illness.

http://aarongansky.com/bill-mahers-adulting-a-rebuttal/

I have never been into comics but I have learned so much from the responses to Bill Maher.

[Blue_true]

164. He was wrong to blame comic books for Trump.

Throughout world history there have been cases where a populist came along at the right (or wrong time) time. Lots of people today are afraid, their dads retired from a job with a gold watch, they get laid off every ten years and struggle to find comparable jobs wage and benefit wise. All a populist has to do is point out problems and promise to make things better, the person does not have to provide a roadmap on how things will be made better.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

11. Only in a nation where wannabe intellectuals praise Milo Whatever The Fuck as the next Christopher

Hitchens, could Donald Trump get elected. Only in the United States of Amnesia could the same people team up with the likes of pathetic figures like Chris Matthews to berate Jorge Ramos because he stated the mind numbingly obvious about the corporate media and the Iraq clusterfuck.

Sure, my generation, especially, has carried nostalgia and some of our childhood pursuits into adulthood. There could be something to be said about that. But the ascension of this cruel inhuman prick has more to do with the decimation of public education and the constant barrage of bullshit we get from what passes as journalism. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, etc had little to do with that.

[Beartracks]

22. This post, right here.

I think what Maher has observed and is trying to comment on has more to do with the examples you cite, and less or nothing to do with comic books.

===========

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. And I actually read the piece in question as not to just react to the headline. It's just

downright lazy. He goes on to diminish Lee as "a man who inspired millions to, I don't know, watch a movie...". That's just simplistic and again, lazy. I haven't bought or read a comic book since the 8th grade or there about. But when I did ( and Marvel was my go to). It stimulated my imagination, motivated me to try to draw more, it helped me to learn English. Eventually I became an architect. Not because of comics. But they sure as shit didn't hurt.

He's basically conflating adults who might be mourning Lee's passing because they remember him fondly from their childhood. With adults who still read comics, which is their business anyway (nothing wrong with that). I thought "Mr. don't judge me for being baked all day while refusing to do so called grown up shit like raise a family." would be less, oh I don't know, judgemental.

He also conveniently ignores how this man used his platform to teach young and old alike about the pointlessness of bigotry.

Lots of grown ups mourned Mr. Rogers' passing as we do when childhood heroes pass. That's not something to shit on. Even if you're a guy who gets wood by the sound of your own voice.

[Oneironaut]

68. Honestly, Bill Maher is a good example of a "wannabe intellectual."

I enjoy learning new things and like reading “heavy” things. I also think there’s a difference between trying to be knowledgeable and being pompous and pretentious, which is what Bill Maher strikes me as.

Saying, “liking X makes you immature / less intelligent / a simpleton” is a really douchey attitude to have. It doesn’t say anything about a person other than they enjoy those things. Bill is really snobbish and pretentious about certain things, and I’ve never liked that about his comedy.

Part of being an adult is making your own choices, and not trying to prove how “adult” you are. That’s a very immature attitude to have, imo. Bill looks silly here.

I think there is some validity to your point, but I would argue that treating Bill Maher as an intellectual is also problematic. He is another commentator (who I happen to agree with at times). Some of his opinions are silly and anti-intellectual. He is woefully ignorant on LGBT issues. The show where he had Milo Yiannopoulos on showed Maher’s transphobia and ignorance - he looked like a complete dope.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

73. Let me clarify. What I meant to say is I think he fancies himself

an intellectual. I wouldn't consider him one. Nor does he need to be one. I think he can be funny and make good points. He can also be dead wrong. The post in question which he wrote. Just seemed overly simplistic and lazy. And he didn't even attempt to connect the dots between the Stan Lee to Trump argument he seemed to be making. Nor does it seem he was even trying to be funny.

It just seemed like he just felt like being a prick to people who were paying their respects to a nice old man.

[Oneironaut]

74. Good points. I agree.

[uponit7771]

69. +1

[True_Blue]

132. I agree with everything you said!

[Ron Obvious]

13. Sorry, but I agree with Bill Maher.

Though his timing was indeed in rotten taste.

[Blue_true]

21. Yes, his timing was awful, but the key points that he made were on target. nt

[Iggo]

60. I think he's describing a problem that's not as big or important as he's saying it is.

[Adrahil]

159. Yes! Only APPROVED activities are suitable for adults.

Puuulease.

[Midwestern Democrat]

193. As a longtime film lover, I despise what comic book culture has done to the

film industry. I was a major film fan - to the point of subscribing to three film magazines at one point - but Hollywood has reached such a state of wretchedness that I've basically lost all interest in current film for more than a decade now (I still watch older films). I've heard some people make the argument that high quality television (Netflix; premium cable) is taking the place of adult cinema, but I don't consider that to be an equivalent substitute - it may be high quality TV, but it's still TV. Anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating - take a look at the top 20 grossing films of 2017 - there's only three films (bolded) on the entire list I would consider watching (2 of which I did see):

1 Star Wars: The Last Jedi
2 Beauty and the Beast
3 Wonder Woman
4 Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle
5 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
6 Spider-Man: Homecoming
7 It
8 Thor: Ragnarok
9 Despicable Me 3
10 Justice League
11 Logan
12 The Fate of the Furious
13 Coco
14 Dunkirk
15 Get Out
16 The LEGO Batman Movie
17 The Boss Baby
18 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales
19 Kong: Skull Island
20 The Greatest Showman

[meadowlander]

204. That's not the fault of comic book culture,

it's the fault of movie executives who don't want to invest in anything that isn't already a proven franchise.

Theatres are also now having to compete with TV shows that have much bigger budgets and are more cinematic (e.g. Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, Breaking Bad, Westworld). A lot of the talented writers, directors and actors that would have been making great films thirty years ago are now making great TV shows for HBO and Showtime because they get a steadier paycheck.

Three quarters of the examples on that list don't have anything to do with comic books. What they all have in common is that they are based on recognised brands or are sequels to movies that were already successful. And they are heavy on special effects to lure people into theatres because there are a lot more options now that don't require you to leave the house (e.g. console video games, cable TV, livestreaming movies on demand).

Comic books have been popular since the 1920s so why would they only start to dominate film culture in the 21st century?

[tparrett62]

14. Everyone has their own escape

I don't like country music, "Dancing with the Stars", or 90 percent of what's on tv these days. Some people enjoy a little break from day to day, and comic books are a harmless way to do that. Chaque a son gout.

[LiberalFighter]

15. Yes. Maher is a douchebag.

[Guilded Lilly]

16. The Classics Illustrated Comic book Line...

Taught me, my siblings and my kids how to appreciate good story telling, character and history. The more fantasy oriented ones taught us to embrace our imagination and sense of wonder. The sillier ones kept our sense of humor intact. All positive character qualities to carry and build on throughout life.

Important? Essential.

I know plenty of “adults” who lack intelligence, an appreciation of history, whimsy and humor but have plennnnty of arrogance, dark mean spirit and are generally walking through life as compassionless, shallow, judgmental, dense asses. Perhaps they should read a few comic books?

[BlueStater]

17. What an idiotic, bullshit thing to say.

Comic books are a medium of entertainment, no different than television or film. They cover a vast genre of stories. There are some which are solely directed towards kids and others which appeal to adults. There are some that appeal to both. Watchmen features an attempted rape scene, so, yeah. That's some real "kid's stuff", Bill.

They've influenced a ton of creative people who have contributed to making our culture lively and colorful. And that's supposed to be a bad thing?

Maher sounds like he hasn't a clue about what the hell he's talking about.

[exboyfil]

18. I am just guessing but I bet

If you polled a Comic Com you would find a significant progressive bias. I would also speculate that you would find Comic fandom far more well read than sports fans, reality show junkies, and religion focussed individuals. Not to mention outdoor types and NRA members. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and many others have attempted to be inclusive for far longer than society at large. While the serial nature of comics makes it didficult to sustain a level of serious through an entire run. You do have moments of brilliant social commentary. The writing and artwork can be beautiful as well.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

36. +1

[Mosby]

88. If we are going to speculate

I think you're going to find a lot of non voters who know nothing about politics but could deliver a two hour dissertation about the marvel universe and it's "heros".

[UniteFightBack]

19. I pity the person who has given up all 'kid stuff'. nt

[Blue_true]

20. I have.

Can't think of a single thing that I did as a kid that I do now, except gardening.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

37. Do you still listen to the music of your youth?

If you do, someone out there is probably clucking their tongue and shaking their head at you.

[Iggo]

57. Raises hand.

[Blue_true]

86. No. The music was good, but I moved on.

I don't have records or look for the music online. Musically, I came of age as a young adult.

[John Fante]

157. Are you saying you don't listen to music anymore? No fun entertainment of any kind?

If yes, how could you think that is healthy in any way?

[Blue_true]

166. I listen to the radio, 80's music. nt

I am pretty well adjusted, socially.

[Adrahil]

160. Did you start listening to Perry Como?

No offense, but you sound like you instantly turned into my parents at age 25.

[Blue_true]

167. 80's music. I listen to the radio when driving, mostly as a distraction if no one is in the car

with me. The stations that I tune in are 80's stations. But could I go without music? Yes, most of the time I do because I am doing other stuff where I have to focus.

[Codeine]

99. I'm sorry, but that's genuinely sad in my opinion.

Certainly nobody likes a man-child, but many activities transcend age. You never learned an instrument that you still play as an adult? You never played a sport or or sketched or painted and carried those hobbies forward to your current life?

I played a lot of board games as a kid and I play even more as an adult. They’ve gotten more complex, more challenging, and more sophisticated as I’ve matured, but in the end they’re still games. Why should the passage of an arbitrary number of years render an edifying and pleasurable activity suddenly inappropriate?

[Blue_true]

169. I played a French horn in school. No, I don't play it now or have a desire to play it.

The stuff that I do bring me satisfaction, that is what life should be about in the end.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Anyone who thinks good comics don't teach anything aren't reading them very well.

Also, Bill Maher is an asshole. Also, the cultural snobbery in this thread is unsurprising but disappointing.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

34. Japan and France

Comics are seen as acceptable reading for all ages. Probably because they have fewer busybodies mocking them for “kids’ stuff.”

[JHB]

100. Part of that difference comes from different evolution of the industries

America has plenty of mainstream comics enjoyed by people from all walks of life. It's just that the most widespread of them are freebies in somebody else's publication. It's been that way for over a century.

The US really has two comics industries: syndicated strips and things that are syndicated and picked up by newspapers, magazines, and other outlets; and stand-alone comic magazines (aka comic books). The strips were sweeteners for mainstream publications competing with each other, while the magazines tended to specialize more. In the 50s moral panics and competitors knocking down an innovator tag-teamed to turn the magazine path into kid stuff. Also, postwar America had money to spend so we were willing to pay more, so we insisted on color and disfavored anthologies ("I'm paying to read the Fantastic Four, so give me that. Don't stick in another story or three that I'm not buying it for&quot .

Add to that car culture, the postwar rise of the suburbs and resulting fewer people picking up light reading for rides on mass transit, and that cut the magazines even farther away from mainstream audiences.

In Japan, as an industry manga is different from either of the American industries, having elements of each (e.g., the large format of the magazines, but browsability (a dozen or so stories in a single issue) and ownership rights closer to strips). And in postwar Japan they mostly needed to keep it cheap.

I can't really speak to the French factors, but maintaining an urban culture would certainly have been part of it.

In other places there was more "space" fort the industries to grow outward and upward.

[Beartracks]

28. Bill, you describe a very real problem in society, but...

... you picked an unconnected phenomenon to cite as "evidence" of the trend.

[raging moderate]

29. With great power, there must also come great responsibility.

Did Stan Lee really write those words? Those are great words! Those words helped me so much in raising my son to be a responsible man!

[edhopper]

30. Stan Lee taught a generation of readers

that "With great power there also comes great responsibility".
A lesson we could use today.

[JHan]

32. ugh.. the kind of "cultural criticism" I really cannot stand.

I read comic books and I love Harry Potter , and Sci Fi and lots of "juvenile" stuff like video games.

and I read "profound" shit too.

Where to even begin with this.

If literacy is the issue then talk literacy. -_-

[Anon-C]

35. Bill Maher can eat a bag.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

41. Big Bang Theory made comics ok again bc super smart people could see the beauty in

simplicity and art. Have they changed over the years? You bet, but, they are a way for some people to escape and have fun and really, who cares? Capitalism belongs to everybody. We consume what we like and don't need lectures from people about what's good or bad. I know brilliant folks who can enjoy all the things a comic book reminds us of..!.art, 2. story-telling, 3. imagination, 4.lay-out, 5. our growing up...etc etc. If it helps use our imagination or draw/sketch ourselves, honestly, who cares? Better than a gun fetish and nobody gets killed w them.
Stan Lee is to comics what William Shatner is to Star Trek and all the fun involved in thinking about the future. (I'm writing this on MY Tricorder right now), most of us have one. Reality mimics the forward thinking-ness of some art whether its film, comics, books, or whatever. We progress when we read, and dream. It's that simple for me. On top of it, OLD comic books are incredibly valuable as collectibles, so who's to say? Stan was charming and funny on the show and always took time (as a rich and successful person), to mingle w his fans on/off the show. I liked that. I liked him as a man. He set a good example of not taking oneself too seriously and still being incredibly wealthy and contented. Why the hate about a dude who projected kindness? Not enough time for "kind" w all the "bull-shitery' w the russian at the WH I guess. He's made us all ugly, and intolerant on some level and i hate him most for that.
Point is, there's nothing wrong w a little levity, getting in touch w your inner kid, and above all NOT hurting peoples feelings when they've had a loss. That's what thoughtful people do. We are tolerant people as Liberals...I think the tents big enough for folks who enjoy innocent fun.
Maher goes off the deep end a lot, and that's really why i don't watch much of his stuff. Have a good weekend everybody.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

42. You as well. The only thing I would argue is he was more of a Roddenberry. nt

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

43. Good distinction.

Rock on.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

44. .

for those starting early

[hexola]

45. Harvey Pekar, R Crumb, MAD

Comics arent just for kids.

I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that Donald Trump could only get elected in a country that thinks Bill Maher is funny.

[tonedevil]

205. +1,000,000

[Ilsa]

46. I bet Stan Lee was wealthier than Maher or Trump,

not that this is a good yardstick of a life. Lee was certainly more beloved and made more people happy.

[TheBlackAdder]

83. He was, until some guardian stole all of his money. Spent last years poor, fighting to get it back.

[dameatball]

47. I loved comics as a kid, then tapered off by 10-12. Mad magzine stuck with me longer. Its satire

helped me to look at the status quo and go "hmmmmmmm." But I was an avid reader and still am. Yesterday I donated several boxes of books to a local thrift store. Those things pile up fast.

Anyway, on topic, Bill was tone deaf and arrogant. However, he is hit and miss with me, but I still usually enjoy his show.

[PoliticAverse]

151. Best magazine ever. n/t

[dameatball]

177. I started reading Mad back in the 60's. Then I sort of got busy with life. Mid 90's I had three kids

ages approximately 9-15. I brought home a copy and they loved it.

[MrScorpio]

50. Maher's being a pretentious prick here

I'm not surprised.

[irisblue]

115. Yeah. He's got an innate ability to make things about himself.

Like....that apricot man

[DBoon]

51. Maher should try this comic book

[Anon-C]

53. I'm going to sign off here but fuck normalism, grumps and prudes.

RIP and Excelsior, True Believer!

[Deb]

54. He obviously needs an educational visit to MoMA

Shocking he doesn't appreciate the art of comics, even the kids get it.

[lunatica]

55. Once a prick...

What is his problem? Why does he have such visceral reactions to things he’s not into? To me that shows a fundamental lack of basic respect for others who he wants to feel superior to.

He goes way overboard on his ranting objections to whatever his hatred de jour happens to be.

I’m an agnostic but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect other people for being religious as long as they aren’t trying to take my rights away.

What a fucking snob!

[LisaM]

58. Years ago we saw Bill Maher as part of a lecture series.

It was like watching an adolescent. His routine was profanity-laced and full of sex jokes and puerile observations. (Other speakers had included Michael Moore, Al Franken, and Molly Ivers. Harry Shearer showed a film, and the cast of "A Mighty Wind" did their soundtrack).

Bill Maher was in such stark contrast to everyone else's thoughtful and funny shows it was astonishing. The women all looked annoyed, the older couple in front of us practically had their hands over their ears, and people were shrinking back in their seats in distaste (and this was a left-wing audience). The only people I saw laughing were two teen-aged boys in front of us, clearly Maher's target audience.

So to say that I find his comments rich would be an understatement. I have detested him since that night.

[Iggo]

59. ...and don't get me started about video games! (n/t)

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

114. Aye carumba...kids these days...at least we had to carry our carcasses to

an arcade when they got big. By then I was already too old for them, but, was fascinated non-the-less. I get the attraction, but, LOTS of emphasis on shooting...guns, lazers, cannons, etc etc. Not always, but, a majority of them do have that as a component.

[phleshdef]

61. As a fan of Maher, I would tell him to his face that he is...

....embarrassingly ignorant on this. Stan Lee was spreading progressive messages in his comics writing at a time when it was damn near controversial to do do.

[Devil Child]

62. Stop liking what I don't like!

[Iggo]

67. Basically.

What I like is normal.

What you like is dumb.

[uponit7771]

70. +1

[tonedevil]

63. It would be better...

if Stan Lee was writing an opinion piece on the occasion of Bill Maher passing.

[Docreed2003]

64. Maher is acting like his usual self important, pseudo intellectual self

It isn't about childhood and holding onto childhood things. Is there a measure of escapism in the stories? Absolutely! I'd kill to be Tony Stark. But imagination and escapism alone is not what draws most adult enthusiasts into the genre. The adult enthusiasts are pulled in by incredible artwork, fascinating storylines, and a medium that has virtually unlimited potential. I follow several comics and manga purely for the storyline and entertainment value. Knowing the intricacies of every story line dating back to their origins or debating Marvel vs DC is no different than a baseball enthusiast who hasn't played the game since little league but knows every stat and factoid of the game. Comic enthusiasts are just an easy target because they are viewed as being nerds/geeks/etc...just like many of us were derided when we were in grade school.

That doesn't even begin to touch on the fact that Maher feels that he can so dismissively address the passing of Stan Lee like it's no big deal. I could list many many examples of just how progressive Stan lee and his cohorts were. Captain America wasn't just a jingoistic icon fighting Nazis, he was an average kid from Brooklyn who happened to be granted a super power that allowed him to stand up to the ultimate bully and he paid the price for choosing to take on that role...Incredible Hulk isn't just a nonthinking green monster smashing shit, he is a complex scientist whose experiments backfired on him and he's forced to attempt to control the beast in order to save himself...Spider-Man is a teenage kid who got turned into a superhero through happenstance and through his story we learned that "with great power comes great responsibility"....Lee would use comic to expose average teens and young adults to the idea of civil rights...the message of Lee again and again was one of inclusion, complex human nature, and the fact that even the least of us can stand up when called to against agents of fascism, hatred, and bigotry. So sure, Bill, let's piss on the grave of a good man who brought the whole word an immense amount of entertainment and joy, but, more importantly, he inspired some of us to be good and do the right thing.

[gulliver]

65. Bill's right, but comic books are also great.

From Little Lotta to Superman. From Huey, Dewey, and Louie to Heavy Metal, comics are excellent. They are better than video by a mile.

Bill Maher is also right about perma-kids. Maybe it's always been the case that grown-up life was full of childishness. I feel like adults used to try harder to be adults once they grew up. It doesn't mean they couldn't collect stamps or build model trains. But, I do feel like Trump is a sign of (and example of) too much childishness.

[sfwriter]

71. I know a lot of comic book fans and industry professionals

I have friends who scored high on the GRE because of the comics the read and wrote. Stan Lee used big words. My friend Phil says he read at 12th grade level in 4th grade because of Lee. Excelsior! My friend Kevin learned to read using comics when the school system failed him.

Academic interest in comics is not new. Stan Lee toured colleges in the 1970s and the first courses to feature comics as literature were taught then. Also, the paper he cites is likely not to be as much about the Silver Surfer as it is about deploying academic analytic models to examine a subject. Otherness and Heterodoxy signals that this will likely touch on racism or alienation, topics VERY relevant today.

Also, you don’t get to decide what culture deems relevant. When Whitney Phillips started her career analyzing the immature world of trolling online image boards like 4chan, she and her advisers had no idea this childidish topic would become the heart of the Alt Right and the best tool for explaining the success of Donald Trumps rhetorical strategy.

Maher is right about the overproduction of PhDs and the diminished value of education, but Comic Books didn’t cause it.

[Caliman73]

84. True. The diminishing of education was at least facilitated by making it a commodity.

Education is necessary for an engaged citizenry. That doesn't mean that everyone needs to go to university and get a degree but it means that people need to be able to take in information, assess its validity, make decisions about it, and engage with the rest of society based on the outcome. In other words critical thinking.

The assumption is that if you get a degree, that you have learned, not only specific information, but an approach on taking in new information and as I wrote above, synthesizing it, and utilizing it for decision making, which is why typically having a degree got you a better job. As with almost anything in America however, people started seeing only Dollars and Cents, and university education became a commodity. When you make something a commodity its value becomes only what you can get for it in trade. With something like education or equally health care, the value has to be something other than "how much money can I get from this?"

[Mosby]

98. Have you taken the GRE?

I have.

Comic books do not use the kinds of words found in the language section of the exam, though scifi definitely does, probably more than mainstream fiction, in fact.

[sfwriter]

168. Stan Lee sure did!

And yes, I have taken the GRE. I’d say the heyday language wise was late 60s through the 70s sometime, a Bronze Age phenomena. Lee was famous for his expansive vocabulary. Other writers aped that.

Words like Obsequious, Sequence, Capricious, Arduous and Adept are on the GRE list and I learned them in Marvel comics.

Looking over a couple of GRE lists while replying to this doesn’t reveal many words that would be out of place. Words like amalgamate, latent, abjure, imminent, bygone are words I’ve seen used. The X-men, Doctor Strange and Thor account for a lot of the complexity in those years. Lee was lecturing colleges at the time and saw comics as a mature medium, not just kids stuff.

[Mike Nelson]

75. Bill Maher is...

… dead wrong, this time. The comic books Stan Lee and others created were great entertainment and mostly progressive/liberal. The heroes came from other places and helped society. Superman was against the death penalty. Spider-Man taught, "With great power comes great responsibility." The National DC Comics sided with FDR through JFK. The X-Men and the Legion of Super-Heroes were "mutant" and "different" yet accepted. They decided black heroes were okay. They were immigrants starting in the 1940s… many Jewish creators... Black artists, Asian artists... yes, there were racist images and it was slow along the way... but it was, on balance, a progressive art form. I would only agree that much of the stuff today is not as good. Long fight issues... impossibly muscular men and impossibly curved women. But, it's wrong to not see the good and Stan Lee represented the good stuff.

[ismnotwasm]

76. Mayer is no paragon of maturity--he doesn't get to designate what 'kidstuff' is

And comics have evolved, many of them ARE quite sophisticated. Art combined with a story line may not be ‘literature’ but my guess is that Mayer would read Raymond Chandler over Thomas Pynchon. Who the fuck does he think he is?

[DFW]

77. Maher definitely lost it this time

Did France or Belgium elect someone as awful as Trump just because Goscinny and Uderzo invented the wildly successful Asterix comic book series?

Everyone makes mistakes. Maher just made a whopper. I would also hazard a guess that he never met Stan, or he would have sung Stan's praises just like everyone else that ever knew him.

[Lotusflower70]

78. So not cool

To trash a pretty remarkable and brilliant man's life work is unnecessary and disrespectful. He doesn't get it and if he does, he doesn't care. Some people say that comics are for kids and that we such outgrow childish things. Screw that, I am going to stay in touch with my inner child till the day I die. Stan Lee is a legend. He was a genius and he used his medium for creative expression as well as to send a message. He showed the beauty of the imagination and spoke to so many on another level. Comics are another world for freedom and release. It's an outlet and an escape. The fact that comics speak to so many says a great deal. To mock or belittle something that is so meaningful says more about Maher than Lee. Stan Lee's legacy will live on forever.

[snort]

80. Gee,

Bill's career has been combining images with words. You must now drop the graphics, Bill. New Rules is not going to be as entertaining.

[oberliner]

81. This is exactly why he made the comments

[ismnotwasm]

82. This thread?

[oberliner]

85. No, the reaction in general

[sfwriter]

87. An attention getter?

[oberliner]

89. I think Maher likes to do/say things to stir things up and get a reaction

Which is understandable.

[sfwriter]

90. Agreed. I still like him though.

[LeftInTX]

91. I have never watched an Action Hero movie in my life

I only watched part of Spiderman, cuz I was stuck at my in laws with the TV.

I also don't like the direction that the movie industries are going with these franchise films.


But that is my personal taste and I think about 90% of the population disagrees with me.

When 90% of the population is mourning Stan Lee, Bill Maher is being a jerk.

He's so cynical and oppositional. No one wants to hear this personal rant.

[Rizen]

92. I usually like Bill Maher but

he needs to learn to pick his battles and can put his foot in his mouth at times. Stick to talking about things that are actually harmful and lay off elitist points.

[MineralMan]

95. I'm not a comics fan, but Bill Maher is a jerk.

There's no need to dump on Stan Lee this way. No need at all. That's Maher's schtick...dumping on things.

Thing is, Marvel Comics capitalized on something Maher thinks is worthless. Maher hasn't capitalized on stuff I think is worthless. He's jealous of Stan Lee's success and, now, outright fame, since the movies started coming out.

Comics have their appeal. They're fantasy fiction. They don't interest me, particularly, but that's immaterial. There's absolutely no call for trashing Stan Lee. He was a pioneer in an industry I don't care about, but that's also immaterial. He's dead and people are mourning his death.

Shut the fuck up, Bill Maher. What you think about this doesn't matter. It's just mean.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

117. Right on!

The older comic books were much better imho. But, to each his own. Much rather have a kid who reads comic books, then one who snorts oxys or runs the streets or whatever. It's all relative. Bill was probably high. Not that that's bad, just, gotta be extra careful what you say I suppose. Never been "high' so I don't know......ahem.

[MineralMan]

133. The only comic book I read regularly was Mad Magazine.

It's why I fell in love with satire.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

137. Classic stuff. Cracked never seemed to live up to it, but, it had it's moments too.

definitely MAD Magazine and nat. Lampoon later in life.

[catbyte]

202. I still have my original National Lampoon C. Estes Kefauver High School in Dacron, Ohio

1964 Yearbook. The sheer amount of detail is astounding. Even now, 43 year later, I still see something new. Stupid jokes abound.

Brilliant!

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

206. +11111

[crazycatlady]

183. Mad magazine is still pretty good

I buy it for my dad every year for Christmas. It is always one of his favorite gifts.

They also are having fun with Trump.

[jcgoldie]

97. Oh FFS

Outrage because Maher says comic books are for kids? Is this really an issue that matters? Seriously I think that pretty much proves his point.

[BannonsLiver]

103. +1

I have no ill will toward Stan Lee or comics but the amount of bullshit in this thread i.e. everyone reads comics in France (not even close to being true) is thick. This thread reads like Maher was right on the money tbh.

[JonLP24]

105. I laughed so hard reading Maher's OP-ed

“Donald Trump could only get elected in a country that thinks comic books are important.” is bullshit.

What about reality shows like The Apprentice? Or the other reality shows that dominated the major networks since the 2000s? That is probably a bigger factor in electing a reality star.

Plus he is a stand up comedian which isn't exactly a mature industry and liked to hang out the Playboy mansion.

[BannonsLiver]

106. I can't disagree with you on the reality shows

But the temper tantrums here don’t make a great case for comic books as an adult pursuit either. Literal temper tantrums being thrown because people here disagree with someone about comics. Talk about something I “laughed so hard” at.

[ismnotwasm]

109. The medium has evolved

It’s far more than the super hero’s of Stan Lee. some of the visual presentation in comics, graphics novels, whatever, are stunning and the story lines compelling.

To dismiss Comics as kid stuff is asinine

But true, there isn’t any country where “everyone” does anything

[Eko]

101. Kids want to be Superman when they grow up.

Nobody wants to be Bill Maher.

[Gothmog]

102. I stopped watching Maher a long time ago

I am glad that I stopped watching this person

[BannonsLiver]

104. I wonder if it was about the time I stopped reading comics?

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

119. I can't afford a sat or cable connection so no HBO kinda goes w that...

but, he sure seems callous these days in clips Ive seen. Nobodies perfect, but, dang dude...D's and P's and I's READ. The gop tends to fall off in that regard...imho. Just seems like he wouldn't attack people doing something as innocent as reading, and fantasizing about a world out there...

[Coventina]

108. Bill Maher wants to blame comic books for Trump?

That's just painfully stupid.

I guess I'm his worst nightmare: a college professor who loves comic books! I'm also the faculty advisor for our college's Anime Club.

I guess that pretty much makes me the antiChrist.

Maher clearly knows nothing about comics and their progressive history....particularly Stan Lee's Marvel.

Maher shows himself in this piece to be desperately trying to show some sort of intellectual superiority.

I wonder what made him so insecure? Is he just smart enough to realize he can't actually cut it with the intellectual posturing?

Pathetic little man.

[ismnotwasm]

110. +1000

[thucythucy]

124. I'd blame "The Apprentice" and "reality" TV for Trump

before I'd blame comic books.

It might be more useful for Bill might to some time examining the role his own branch of the entertainment industry played in creating our current fiasco.

Just a thought.

[unitedwethrive]

111. I'm not a big Bill Maher fan, but I totally agree with him on this.

My guess, as a developmental specialists, is that this goes right along with those who are overly involved with video games and fantasy games into their adulthoods. The majority of these are men who are on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum - the same group who in former times would have had a hard time fitting into society and lived with their parents as adults. Since the 90s, with the technology revolution, they are able to find good paying jobs that are a perfect fit for their abilities. Because they are now employable and financially successful, they are more likely to marry and procreate, thus the increase in autism in society.

[Coventina]

112. Do you have any peer-reviewed published studies that back up your statements?

I'd love to read them.

TIA,

Coventina

female, lover of comic books, and college professor

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

118. Right on and right w you teach.

great accomplishments. Teaching is a wonderful profession. I too know this first hand.

[Coventina]

121. Thanks! It is wonderful, and it is tough!

As you know as well!!

I am pretty astounded by the bigotry being expressed in this thread.

It's saddening.

[unitedwethrive]

139. There are many that get at this issue, but as I said it is my guess as to this phenomena

since there is really no way to design such a study. (It would have to be prospective, and you can't ethically designate a control group.) Having worked with those on the spectrum for 30 years, I can see the changes in their lives with this 'new' field opening up that so many are very well qualified for. At the beginning of my career, these same individuals were not sought out for marriage because they generally did not live independently or hold career type employment. Now, they are leaders in the tech industry and are economically secure, and are out in society where they are able to meet people and form long-term relationships. It is quite noticeably different from the not-so-recent past.

Here is an article I use in one of my classes on the subject:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/04/22/177452578/young-adults-with-autism-can-thrive-in-high-tech-jobs

[Coventina]

141. So your guess is that almost all comic book readers are autistic?

Do you have ANY evidence that that is true?

[unitedwethrive]

142. Only practical evidence, in that virtually all of my autistic patients talk about their comic books

it is one way that I am able to break the ice with them. So I can say that autistic people are drawn to comics, but don't think anyone knows (or truthfully would waste research dollars to find) the percentage of comic readers who are autistic. I have also found that people who are drawn to comics and fantasy games in particular are often those who have a hard time with social interactions, and many have not been formally evaluated as to their processing abilities.

[Coventina]

143. Well, my "practical evidence" says the complete opposite of yours.

The comic book readers I know (including myself) are all self-sufficient, functioning adults in American society.

Just because autistic people read comic books doesn't mean people who read comic books are autistic.

That's a pretty basic logical fallacy.

[edhopper]

172. What tripe

Most autistic people like comics, therefore most people who like comics are autistic?

If you can't see how your statement is bad science, medicine and statistic, you are in the wrong profession.

[John Fante]

175. Holy quackery, Batman!

[JonLP24]

116. Do you watch movies?

A lot of video games have a plot and I'm not sure what autism has to do with it as plenty of people play video games. The average age is 35. I believe one of the site administrators plays video games.


?w=420

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/11/younger-men-play-video-games-but-so-do-a-diverse-group-of-other-americans/ft_17-09-11_videogames_youngeramericans/

I never had autism myself.

[Codeine]

136. Oh codswallop.

For fuck’s sake, you’re diagnosing a huge chunk of the goddamned population as autistic. Do you realize how many people of all ages, all genders, and all neurotypes play video games?

I can’t stand video games and even I would never make such a stupid statement as that.

[First Speaker]

138. Well, friend, somewhere Dr Wertham is smiling reading your post...

...and if you don't know who he was, well, Google is your friend...assuming, of course, that Googling isn't contributing to autism...

[kcr]

146. Your post is a reminder

That people need to carefully vet their providers.

[Coventina]

147. !

[Iggo]

179. No shit.

What the fuck was that?

[Adrahil]

203. Boom! NT

[meadowlander]

174. Clap-trap.

We haven't had video games, comic books and the fantasy genre long enough to draw the kind of inferences you are making about their relationship to genetics and autism. Nor is there evidence that autism is more prevalent today than it has been in the past.

And why wouldn't an obsessive focus within a narrow field of interest be a beneficial characteristic for a farmer breeding more successful strains of livestock or crops or a sculptor or architect or ship navigator or musician or baker or wheelwright or weaver or any of the other thousands of historic jobs that people with autism would have been perfectly capable of succeeding at?

[crazycatlady]

182. I worked with a die hard comic book fan

His wall was decorated in comic book covers (repros from a coffee table book) and he is super into video games (he had a video game tournament as his birthday party). This man is in his 30s.

He is an incredibly intelligent guy and very good at his job. I'm now a mentor figure to him and thinks he has a bright future ahead of him.

If someone has a hobby, let them. It makes them a more complete person. Is being into comic books any different than being into other things? Sports team? A book series/author? Singer/band? TV show? Crafts? Board games?

[vercetti2021]

190. Total horse hockey

I read comics because I enjoy the stories they have plus the beautiful artwork as well. But I'm not autistic whatsoever...so moot point to make thinking comic readers and video gamers are autistic.

[ismnotwasm]

120. Btw, best thread since Breastfeeding in public.

[Coventina]

123. Yeah, who knew comic books could be the next pit bull breastfeeding at an Olive Garden?

I didn't see that one coming!!

[ismnotwasm]

131. I know right?

It’s pretty funny.

[Devil Child]

144. Don't forget male circumcision!

[Coventina]

145. And cornflake chicken!!

[thucythucy]

122. The same man who is dissing comics

makes his living on the medium that brought us "Keeping up with the Kardashians" and "Hogan's Heroes" and a hundred thousand other hours of mindless pap.

Personally, I think "The Apprentice" had more to do with Trump's selection than people reading comic books.

That's your medium Bill. Talk about dumbing down America. All of those zombie shows. All that History Channel crap about ancient aliens. If you want to cast blame for the race to the bottom in our national discourse, I think you should look closer to home.

[Cartoonist]

125. Hate and ignorance on DU

From Maher and everyone who agrees with him.

[Cha]

126. Only a Nation where so many get

sucked in by FAKE fox"news" and hate radio could help the Russians and their fucking enablers get trump rigged in.

I don't read comics anymore but that doesn't mean I don't understand others still getting into them.

I like Riverdale on Netflix.. that's from Archie, Betty, and Veronica Comics.

Kevin Keller, Archie Comics' first gay character, debuted in Veronica #202 in September 2010. The character was created out of a conversation between Goldwater and longtime Archie Comics writer-artist Dan Parent during the company's first creative summit, about bringing more diversity to Riverdale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Comics

[GatoGordo]

127. Bill Maher gives only a shit about Bill Maher

I stopped watching him years ago.

[sfwriter]

170. That's absurd.

He has been a million dollar donations to the Democratic Party twice now. He cares a lot.

[Azathoth]

130. So after clicking through a dozen links, I finally got to Maher's blog, and it wasn't bad

https://www.real-time-with-bill-maher-blog.com/index/2018/11/16/adulting

You might not agree with it, but he's not trying to be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. He's making a legitimate observation that a lot of people have also made. This stuff about him "disrespecting Stan Lee" is just more social media hysteria.

[Adrahil]

162. I disagree. I think he is being a snob, and assumes only he knows how adults should act.

I have a Masters in Systems Engineering. My wife has a PhD in British Lit and is a college professor.

Both of us "use our smarts" to do serious things. Hard things, even.

We both also enjoy stuff that Mr. Maher might consider "kid stuff."

Fuck 'im. We do adulting. But instead of watching sports on the weekends, I prefer other endeavors.... board gaming for example. Or chatting about Star Wars with some friends. Oddly, despite being a "geek," I have never been into comic books.

I think the people who are a problem in our country are NOT generally the ones reading comic books as adults.

[Azathoth]

181. I used to read comics as well. But the fact is comics used to be a kid's thing up until a decade ago

when they suddenly went mainstream in a big way. Before that, "adult" comics were "graphic novels" and catered to a niche audience. I've heard more than a few people comment on how we are suddenly treating comics like they're F. Scott Fitzgerald literature.

Again, you can disagree with him. But he's not just pissing on Stan Lee for the hell of it. He legitimately doesn't get the modern comic book zeitgeist.

[BlueStater]

184. If movies and television can be art, then so can comic books.

They're all mediums of telling a story. Why should comic books be taken less seriously than the other two I mentioned?

[crazycatlady]

185. lots of 'kids' things' are very mainstream for adults to like

Look at Disney movies, Harry Potter, etc.

Not everything needs to be highbrow. Comic books have just as much of a place in our culture as the classics do. Just as pop music has just as much of a place as classical music does.

It used to be that board/card games were considered things for children. I can tell you that I wouldn't want a group of kids playing 'Cards Against Humanity' or a similar adult game.

I know many comic book fans. They're not like the character on The Simpsons.

I think Bill Maher is being too highbrow and does not do liberals a favor by doing so (plays into the 'limousine liberal' stereotype). Funny how nobody really picks on his pot habit and says that he should have grown out of smoking pot after college.

[Adrahil]

188. He comes off as insulting about it.

So, it was "kid stuff" up to 20 years ago (or whatever). Who gives a fuck?

At least reading a comic book engages your imagination and you do actually have to read it. I'll take that over watching football any day of week for "adulting."

And it's okay he doesn't get it. I don't get guys want to golf every weekend. Or people who garden. But I figure it does SOMETHING for those doing it.

[Initech]

135. Someone on Twitter pointed out the irony of him appearing in Iron Man 3:

[Captain Stern]

150. Gosh..Bill Maher is so edgy and cool. Nobody can control what he says.

I'm pretty sure all the cool people watch his show.

Naah. He's following in the steps of his ex-girlfriend.

Instead of trashing comic book fans at the time of Stan Lee's death, he should have just tweeted out....."EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME. I STILL MATTER". Of course, most people wouldn't have looked, and he wouldn't have mattered.

[sfwriter]

173. Maher has always trashed super hero movies.

This is not such a surprise if you watch his show.

[John Fante]

176. I would have respected Maher more (while still considering

him an asshole) if he just said, "I don't like comics, they're stupid, fuck Stan Lee". Short and sweet.

The problems here is that he attributes the popularity of comics to the decline of Murica as we know it, and that's just idiotic. This is no different than blaming zombie films for the rise in gun violence (something a Republican moron just did). I'm just baffled that a smart man like Maher could write something so dumb.

[Auggie]

178. I think Mahar is touching upon the "dumbing down of America," ...

a phrase/belief DUers very often point to here.

Read the entire blog. It’s well-written, and I happen to agree.

[JonLP24]

180. I read the whole thing

I posted a link in post #7 which has the entire thing but I think that he missed the mark on this.

[Oneironaut]

191. TBH, "They like X show, comic book, etc., therefore they're stupid" has always been a nonsequitur.

It's highly possible for very smart people to enjoy "dumbed down" things (e.g. The Kardashians, reality TV, video games,etc.). The real problem is that too many Americans are ignorant, believe news from fake sources, and don't want to educate themselves, It doesn't follow that reality TV, comic books, or video games are linked with ignorance.

[bluestateboomer]

186. Comics are not just popular the US

One should check out the popularity of Manga in Japan. These are read by Japanese of all ages.

[BobTheSubgenius]

187. I wasn't that interested in comic books when I was a kid.

I haven't seen a reason to try to develop an interest in them now , and, heresy or no, I find this trend of making every Marvel and DC franchise into movies, or even TV series, kind of silly.