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Poiuyt

(18,087 posts)
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 12:48 AM Dec 2018

Just because impeachment proceedings backfired on Republicans doesn't mean that it will

backfire on Democrats. There are two totally different situations.

Everyone is gunshy about impeaching Trump because of the way the Clinton impeachment went. I think that backfired on Republicans because the country saw that Clinton's crime (lying in a civil case) was frivolous and politically motivated. Trump's crimes, however, appear to be crimes against the United States. Much more serious. Even if the Senate doesn't convict him, and they probably won't, people will see that Trump's crimes warrant these measures.

We, of course, need to see the Mueller report, but I'm guessing it will show considerable evidence of impeachable crimes. If the Democrats in the House can use that report to build an overwhelming case for impeachment, they should do so, even if the Senate fails to convict. It's important for history so that people can see the extent of Trump 's crimes. It's important for future generations to see that there are repercussions for abuse of power or illegal behavior.

The Founding Fathers put the impeachment clause in the Constitution for a reason; the framers anticipated that someone would become president who might commit high crimes and misdemeanors. They did not say to only bring up impeachment trials if is politically expedient. We have never seen a case where it is needed more than now (assuming the Mueller report shows substantial evidence of impeachable crimes). It would be a travesty if the Democrats did not act at this time.

Sometimes you just need to do what's right.

44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Just because impeachment proceedings backfired on Republicans doesn't mean that it will (Original Post) Poiuyt Dec 2018 OP
It's time to do the right thing. It's their constitutional duty. onecaliberal Dec 2018 #1
Totally agree with this. ooky Dec 2018 #4
Everyone knew Clinton's was a sham. Trump is destroying the country and it will be seen differently. TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #25
There is a lot more to come on the Mueller front. I am starting to see that the special counsel onecaliberal Dec 2018 #28
I wonder how the Mueller report that we all speak about will come out. I heard recently that he Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2018 #38
Before we start impeachment we need to step back and let the implosion happen from his fear kimbutgar Dec 2018 #2
Let it ride for a while SCantiGOP Dec 2018 #3
"40% of 2018 voters said they want Donald Trump impeached, Hortensis Dec 2018 #37
So you think it's more likely that gop and Russians would be supporting NO Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2018 #39
I think they'd love a premature, failed attempt, Laura. Hortensis Dec 2018 #40
Thinking a lot about what you and others are saying. Concluded that there are so many Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2018 #41
Well, got a clue today. Repukes saying trump's Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2018 #43
We shouldn't mistake media plays for more than they are. Hortensis Dec 2018 #44
The problem is that the fundamental assumption of impeachment is false marylandblue Dec 2018 #5
Sometimes you just need to do what's SMART. Stinky The Clown Dec 2018 #6
What's smart Sugarcoated Dec 2018 #7
S.M.A.R.T. Goals Bucky Dec 2018 #10
There is a big difference between treason BigmanPigman Dec 2018 #8
Anyone who cites the founding fathers needs to review the history Bucky Dec 2018 #9
Impeachment is the legal recourse to a President having committed high crimes & misdemeanors. Honeycombe8 Dec 2018 #13
It might feel good to say that, but... Bucky Dec 2018 #14
Thank you for being a voice of reason EffieBlack Dec 2018 #34
I totally agree. The first duty of Congress is to protect the country, above all else. Honeycombe8 Dec 2018 #11
Trump convicted of multiple felonies will be very difficult to defend in Congress. Ford_Prefect Dec 2018 #12
So far, we know that trump committed at least 1 felony. Any party that attempts to sweep this under ecstatic Dec 2018 #15
Impeachment is a political process EffieBlack Dec 2018 #35
i think the most important thing to do first will be the investigations JI7 Dec 2018 #16
Field of dreams whistler162 Dec 2018 #17
Don't start a battle, even a righteous one, before you are armed enough to wage it DFW Dec 2018 #18
Two words - Fox News dansolo Dec 2018 #19
And how many times did the house vote to kill the ACA? Chasdev Dec 2018 #20
Because THAT approach worked so well? EffieBlack Dec 2018 #36
Good point. JohnnyRingo Dec 2018 #21
Apples and oranges pecosbob Dec 2018 #22
I would even question the premise -- that it backfired on the Republicans karynnj Dec 2018 #23
The impeachment of Cinton was fake. Scruffy1 Dec 2018 #29
Never start a fight you can't win, Codeine Dec 2018 #24
Is McConnell even required to act on it? Pope George Ringo II Dec 2018 #26
Do the math, do the math. Dems need to slice and dice Trump until the OnDoutside Dec 2018 #27
Impeaching with a simple majority in the House is no problem ... marble falls Dec 2018 #30
It doesn't mean it won't either. elocs Dec 2018 #31
K & R SunSeeker Dec 2018 #32
I look at it this way, Mr.Bill Dec 2018 #33
So why do they get to do whatever they want and we don't? Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2018 #42

ooky

(8,885 posts)
4. Totally agree with this.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:00 AM
Dec 2018

It can't be ignored. The House should impeach him and then put on trial by the senate.

TheBlackAdder

(28,073 posts)
25. Everyone knew Clinton's was a sham. Trump is destroying the country and it will be seen differently.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:32 PM
Dec 2018

.

By the time an impeachment goes though, there will be another 10% of our institutions destroyed.

More Russia ties and money-laundering will be exposed.

.

onecaliberal

(32,486 posts)
28. There is a lot more to come on the Mueller front. I am starting to see that the special counsel
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:50 PM
Dec 2018

Knows about criminal activity that the public has not yet become aware of.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
38. I wonder how the Mueller report that we all speak about will come out. I heard recently that he
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:17 AM
Dec 2018

Actually is “distributing” pieces along the way (Like info on anyone who has been indicted or pled guilty along the way). I understand why he’s doing that, but I do wonder if it is minimizing the total effect. Spreading crimes over months instead of all at once.

SCantiGOP

(13,856 posts)
3. Let it ride for a while
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 12:54 AM
Dec 2018

The stakes are too high.
In a few weeks we may have repubs panicking and starting to reference impeachment; that might mobilize public support.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
37. "40% of 2018 voters said they want Donald Trump impeached,
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:16 AM
Dec 2018

according to CNN's national exit polls. ... 77% of self-identified Democrats supported impeachment in the exit polls, compared with just 5% of Republicans and 33% of independents."

Every month support is growing, but it's NOT TIME YET.

It's so much not time yet that this sudden surge in posts angrily demanding "Impeachment NOW!" (and even accusing our Democratic leaders of corruption if they don't) makes me wonder if the Republicans and Russia could be behind it.

A premature failed attempt to remove Trump from office -- against the wishes of a majority of Americans -- could possibly lose us everything in 2020. And more than restore lost power to the Republicans.

And, yes, it would OF COURSE be cast as a corrupt political attempt to undo an election for partisan reasons every bit as bad as what the Republicans do.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
39. So you think it's more likely that gop and Russians would be supporting NO
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:37 AM
Dec 2018

Impeachment than impeachment? With all due respect, that seems counterintuitive. A serious and sober public display of all his offenses at one time ( not just the dribble that happens today) would be worse than tacit acceptance of his behavior which minimizes the total seriousness?

Btw surprised at the 77% dem support for impeachment. I would venture a guess that on du it’s the opposite - 33%. Just like how more dems wanted Pelosi out than didn’t (per CNN poll). Opposite here.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
40. I think they'd love a premature, failed attempt, Laura.
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 11:05 AM
Dec 2018

We're in a huge battle for the future direction of our nation that's far bigger than Trump. Continued democracy or takeover by what has become a white nationalist authoritarian party.

Fwiw, eventual successful removal of Trump from office -- as long as it resulted in a far more competent president from their team, Pence -- could also serve Republican goals extremely well. Certainly, Christian reconstructionists would be on board for that.

Not that that could happen yet, of course, because right now the Republican senate would act as heroes protecting the president the people supposedly elected from the evil Democrats. With 95% of their voters opposing removal, they need the excuse and support the investigation results will give them before they can support it.

And those are coming. Nixon had become very unpopular with Republicans until we started investigating him for crimes. Then Republicans rallied around Nixon just as they are to Trump. Two years later (during which time they reelected Nixon by large numbers) when Nixon was proven a criminal to them, they turned on him. Or at least enough of them.

Trump's crimes are far worse than Nixon's. That every Republican senator voted for additional, big sanctions against Russia for election interference is a huge clue to what they are almost certainly eventually going to do as the results of this investigation come out.

As for the statistics, my own take is that close to 100% of DUers really, really want Trump impeached. I know I consider it a moral duty, hopefully one we can fulfill, and am encouraged by incoming Judicial Committee chair Jerry Nadler speaking "impeachment." The gap is between those who want impeachment immediately and those who realize that moving too soon could be a very bad move that ultimately lost us everything.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
41. Thinking a lot about what you and others are saying. Concluded that there are so many
Tue Dec 11, 2018, 12:03 AM
Dec 2018

variables and possible outcomes.

Trump could up and quit
Trump could push on regardless of everything and run in 2020
The GOP could not back his nomination
He could truly be guilty of serious crimes and be indicted
He could be truly guilty of serious crimes and all could want him impeached
He could be truly guilty of serious crimes and the public and GOP don’t care
We could end up with Pence until 2020
We could end up with Pelosi until 2020
Trump could be found innocent/nothing of consequence out of Mueller probe

No one knows the path this will all take us and no one should have a sure path forward yet.

All I know is one thing...we Dems have had no affect on his behavior,. The smarter constituents have figured it out on their own. We have no unified cogent plan or message. That is the benefit of impeachment. It would force us and the public to create and hear a complete, sober, succinct, and organized recap of his crimes.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
43. Well, got a clue today. Repukes saying trump's
Tue Dec 11, 2018, 08:31 AM
Dec 2018

Cohen/mistress paying crimes invented by Dems. Dems will do anything to hurt trump.

This is so absurd. We have zero to do with it, literally. So, obvious now the repukes, unless there's something on tape of trump telling Russia he loves them more than he loves America, we can assume that we will have zero support for impeachment.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
44. We shouldn't mistake media plays for more than they are.
Tue Dec 11, 2018, 09:41 AM
Dec 2018

By far most of the big stuff is happening out of our sight.

Right now, sure, impeachment has zero Republican senate support. Big surprise with 95% of their voters against impeachment? The Republicans are already fighting ferociously for control of the nation in 2020, no way they would cave at this point.

There's so much going on that we don't know about. We do know that a bunch of top Republicans took money from Russia legally (they wrote the law making it legal) Will this alone make them fight to the (nation's) death to protect Trump as a way to protect themselves, does it create opportunity for a deal they really can't afford to pass up, or...?



The news about Butina made me think of this article from last summer. The press talk very little about the religious right in politics. They should, of course, but they're understandably afraid to take Big RW Religion on.



How the National Prayer Breakfast offers foreign lobbyists a chance to “pay to play”
Journalist and author Jeff Sharlet on the National Prayer Breakfast, Maria Butina, and the group that calls itself “the Family.”

The New York Times broke a story last week about the degree to which the National Prayer Breakfast has become a “pay to play” event. At the gathering, foreign dignitaries and lobbyists pay thousands of dollars for access to the event itself and — perhaps more importantly — the week of meetings and events surrounding the breakfast. According to the Times’ Kenneth P. Vogel and Elizabeth Dias, “the annual event has become an international influence-peddling bazaar, where foreign dignitaries, religious leaders, diplomats and lobbyists jockey for access to the highest reaches of American power.” ...

At the 2016 and 2017 breakfasts, Butina allegedly met with unnamed American officials and “very influential” Russians, and seems to have successfully attempted to broker meetings between figures in these groups.

As evidenced by the Times report, something more insidious than prayer has been understood to be taking place at the breakfast, says Jeffrey Sharlet, an associate professor of literary journalism at Dartmouth College.

In his 2009 book, The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, Sharlet chronicled the influence of a Christian organization known publicly as “the Fellowship” (and internally as “the Family”), the founders and administrators of the National Prayer Breakfast. The Family — of which Vice President Mike Pence and Attorney General Jeff Sessions are members — is an intensely powerful organization, whose specific vision of Jesus as the ideal “strongman” governs their political theology and who have found, in strongman-sympathetic President Trump, an ideal vessel for their beliefs. ...

Sharlet says the Family often uses the National Prayer Breakfast, and the events surrounding it, as a backdoor recruiting and diplomacy tool for between lobbyists and foreign governments that organizers feel share its “strongman” approach, without formal government oversight.

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17586516/jeff-sharlet-maria-butrina-national-prayer-breakfast-the-family

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
5. The problem is that the fundamental assumption of impeachment is false
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:08 AM
Dec 2018

or at least not in evidence, at this time. They assumed the Senate would have the strength to stand up to the President and vote on the merits of the case. They show no evidence of being able to do that. Impeachment was not meant to be a show trial. But that's all we will get.

Maybe when the Mueller report comes out it will change everything. But it may not. So impeach or not, history will learn the same lesson - the process can be subverted by a demagogic President and 34 corrupt or spineless Senators.

Impeachment might actually make things worse. It will play right into his demagoguery by making everything about him. Which is exactly where he wants it to be.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
9. Anyone who cites the founding fathers needs to review the history
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:27 AM
Dec 2018

At the Constitutional Convention, James Wilson spoke for the majority view when he said:

gentlemen, we must rely on our experiences. Reason may mislead us

My hesitation to support impeachment is based on the frivolous calls for impeachment they come from both sides of the aisle whenever the other side is in power. The calls seem rooted a naive today about how traumatic and complicated and distracting an impeachment can be to the national life.

The latest revelations from Bob Mueller definitely build a stronger case, but the facts are not all in yet. It's premature. I say let Mueller build his smoking gun case further.

Impeachment is a political tactic, not a legal punishment. Impeachment carries no jail time. It's not useful if it's just used to rally the peanut gallery, which is how the Republicans have misapplied it against Clinton and Obama. It's a big powerful tool and should be used responsibly, and not to fire up the bass, but to pull over the political middle to our side.

No one wants to see Trump more gone than I do, but timing is important and you have to keep an eye on the long game. Even now, the impeachment process seems a little impulsive

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
13. Impeachment is the legal recourse to a President having committed high crimes & misdemeanors.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:37 AM
Dec 2018

It's one of the legal recourses that Congress has. It is not a political tactic. Impeachment is the removal process of a President.

The House must impeach, if there is clear evidence of high crimes by Trump. They have no choice, if he won't leave. And he won't. The other option is to leave him in office, and that is unacceptable and failure to do their duty to protect the country.

They have to impeach. Like it or not.

Bucky

(53,795 posts)
14. It might feel good to say that, but...
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:42 AM
Dec 2018

Not how it works.

Everybody in this forum wants to see Trump gone. But if you can't convince a majority in Democratic Underground to impulsively impeach before the ground is fertile, how can you hope to swing the political middle that it would take to make even the attempt worth the effort?

I know that it sucks that democracy moves so slow. Lord knows what that man is doing to undermine the country from within the White House even as we speak. But the moral arcs always move slow

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
11. I totally agree. The first duty of Congress is to protect the country, above all else.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:34 AM
Dec 2018

They have to impeach, if there is clear evidence of serious crimes. They can't just leave a corrupt criminal running the country w/o doing the legal, proper thing about it.

Best case scenario is if he can be "convinced" to leave. But he won't.

Ford_Prefect

(7,823 posts)
12. Trump convicted of multiple felonies will be very difficult to defend in Congress.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:36 AM
Dec 2018

I do not forsee Trump functioning as President while his entire family and many in his administration are convicted and sent to prison. Nor while each political move he makes is contested as illegal and unconstitutional.
It may also come to pass that some of his strongest supporters in the Senate are themselves convicted. That's a circumstance to seriously consider.

This whole conspiracy is much larger than Trump alone. He is the distraction from it as much as the agent in place. The legal consequences of the Mueller investigation will probably take quite a while to unfold and prosecute. As we have seen so far the fraud charges in NY and the Emoluments cases elsewhere have lives of their own. The question of espionage and treason has been raised but remains largely unprosecuted. Money Laundering is one thing, withdrawing from the Nuclear Arms Treaty to enable selling nuclear power and weapons tools the Saudi Crown Prince is quite another.

ecstatic

(32,566 posts)
15. So far, we know that trump committed at least 1 felony. Any party that attempts to sweep this under
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:00 AM
Dec 2018

the rug for political expediency is just as complicit as trump and will instantly earn my disgust. This is one of those cases where you have to do the right thing without trying to worry about political calculations. Democrats need to understand that there will always be a double standard where rethugs are concerned; and unfortunately, we feed into it by always playing by their rules. For once in your damn lives, make/set the playbook and stop waiting on rethugs to tell you how to think!

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
35. Impeachment is a political process
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:06 AM
Dec 2018

Making sure you lay the groundwork for it is not "political expediency." It's the only way to make it work in the long run.

JI7

(89,174 posts)
16. i think the most important thing to do first will be the investigations
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:07 AM
Dec 2018

and then let things go from there .

 

whistler162

(11,155 posts)
17. Field of dreams
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:41 AM
Dec 2018

If you build it they will come. Build the case then talk of impeachment. Don't talk about impeachment without the case, lots of evidence at the moment but it needs to be brought together.

DFW

(54,055 posts)
18. Don't start a battle, even a righteous one, before you are armed enough to wage it
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:05 AM
Dec 2018

Wait for Mueller, and see what we can do with what he has found.

We need a lot of Republican Senators saying "OMG, Trump did THAT?" Republican Senators who would actually prefer Trump out of there need some cover before they vote their conscience (those that still have one, that is) without suffering dire political consequences, also known as "losing their next primaries." The Mueller report could provide it, just like the Nixon tapes sealed his fate.

dansolo

(5,376 posts)
19. Two words - Fox News
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 10:24 AM
Dec 2018

An impeachment trial will backfire on the Dems, and won't even end up with Trump in jail. Trump has Fox News in his corner, spreading his propoganda.

Impeachment assumes that Congress is comprised of honorable people who will consider the evidence of crimes objectively. I don't see a single Republican voting to convict, which means that there wouldn't even be a majority.

Trump can still be indicted and convicted when he is out of office.

Chasdev

(33 posts)
20. And how many times did the house vote to kill the ACA?
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:17 PM
Dec 2018

That's exactly how many times the new house should vote to impeach drumph.
Each time the senate refuses to convict, the house should vote to impeach again...rinse....repeat.

JohnnyRingo

(18,581 posts)
21. Good point.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:44 PM
Dec 2018

It'd be helpful however, if his approval falls more by the time he rises to the level where impeachment is a slam dunk. It's the rednecks and idiots who support Trump that republicans fear on election day.

pecosbob

(7,509 posts)
22. Apples and oranges
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:47 PM
Dec 2018

Rs attempted to impeach Bill Clinton for something most Americans didn't care about. Rs base never contituted more than 20-30% of the electorate. Dems 'must' impeach as DOJ has implicated the president in multiple felonies. It is Congress' duty to impeach. If Rs in the Senate do not vote to impeach, use it against them in 2020. Dems have the numbers and Dems have the motivation. Failure to impeach would be to abrogate their contitutional duty.

karynnj

(59,475 posts)
23. I would even question the premise -- that it backfired on the Republicans
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:21 PM
Dec 2018

In fact, the Republicans impeached Clinton in the Senate in late 1998 during the lame duck session. Looking at the 1998 elections when impeachment was clearly on the table, the Senate was a wash, and trhe Democrats gained 5 seats in the House, with the Republicans having more votes cast for them. We had a net gain of one Governorship. 1998 was almost as stable a year as you will find.

The first election AFTER impeachment was 2000. Remember that GWB, well known as a mean drunk until he was 40 years old, ran on bringing "honor and decency" back to the White House. Al Gore was a former eagle scout, married to his high school sweetheart with a wonderful family. He was given more responsibility than most VPs and was considered to have done a great job. This should not even have been close!

As to the House, the Democrats gained 2 seats, with Republicans narrowly retaining the House. In the Senate, the Democrats gained 4 seats -- however this was a Senate class where the Republicans had gained 8 seats in 1994, the last time they ran. So, we DID have modest gains in Congress, but in BOTH houses we were still in far worse shape than we were before the 1994 election.

Imagine there were no impeachment. Gore, strongly supported by Clinton, emphasizing the state of the world - that might have been better if Congress/administration would not have been absorbed by the impeachment. Not to mention, no way could Bush have gained traction on "honor and decency".

Scruffy1

(3,239 posts)
29. The impeachment of Cinton was fake.
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 10:22 PM
Dec 2018

The soutces I have talked to about agree the Republicans didn't want him impeached and it would have been pointles when he was a lame duck. If it would been close some Republicans would have voted no. What it did accomplish was to keep Clinton largely off the stump because he was a great vote getter. It's quite possible Gore would have won by a large enough vote to make the Florida election unstealable. In its own way they were successful by keeping control of all three branches. Just like they were successful in pillaring Obama and Hillary to control the whole damn government.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
24. Never start a fight you can't win,
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:25 PM
Dec 2018

and symbolic victories aren’t really victories at all. Trump will be gone in due time, and we will repair the damage he has caused. We are a resilient nation. Trump will be consigned to history’s dustbin and we will bury him in a legacy of shame and failure.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
26. Is McConnell even required to act on it?
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:53 PM
Dec 2018

Never mind the fantasy of an impeachment exiting the Senate, are we even sure it would actually enter? Can McConnell just forget about it and refuse to even take it up? I don't believe the subject has ever arisen, and I'd hate to take it in front of this SCOTUS.

Until the case gets ironclad, and the Senate develops integrity, it's pure fantasy. Just pass a House Resolution crapping on Trump and the Senate detailing why, and accept that's about all that can really be done on the subject at the moment.

OnDoutside

(19,908 posts)
27. Do the math, do the math. Dems need to slice and dice Trump until the
Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:42 PM
Dec 2018

GOP beg Democrats to impeach him.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
30. Impeaching with a simple majority in the House is no problem ...
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:17 AM
Dec 2018

convicting him in the Senate with a 2/3 majority is.

elocs

(22,474 posts)
31. It doesn't mean it won't either.
Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:22 AM
Dec 2018

Why not wait for the Mueller investigation to be completed along with other House investigations to build a strong case for impeachment?
There's no need to do it right away.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
33. I look at it this way,
Mon Dec 10, 2018, 10:01 AM
Dec 2018

if Monica Lewinski had been a Russian spy, Clinton would have been removed from office in a heartbeat.

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