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Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:30 PM

Impeachment Measures

“Minds with very little to compare find very little to understand. They know nothing about the measure of thought, nor do they believe in the power of ideas, and therefore they have nothing to support themselves with.”
-- Rubin “Hurricane” Carter; letter to H2O Man; February 20, 1979.


I found that many of the OP/threads on the potential impeachment of Donald Trump reminded of the above quote from my late friend, almost 40 years ago. Those opposed to considering impeachment – with but one particularly hand-wringing exception – were sincerely rooted in the memories of the republican's failed attack upon President Clinton. Yet, even these failed to take the most basic of legal arguments into account – as Vincent Bugliosi noted, lying about the affair was not material, or else a large percentage of those who had been in family court settings would have been charged.

The Clinton experience was, of course, the only impeachment and trial in modern times. It isnot, however, the gold standard by which to go by exclusively today. The best example would be that of the Watergate era, where Nixon resigned before the House could impeach him. We should also consider two other situations where Democrats opted not to impeach a president (Reagan) and then a vice president (Cheney). In doing so, we have literally four times as much to compare, and understand, as those who only consider the Clinton episode.

More, when we consider the Watergate era, it is essential that we identify the realities of that time, rather than subscribe to two of the inaccurate myths that have become accepted as “facts.” The first is that republicans were “different” back then, than they are today. Nonsense. I'd recommend anyone who believes that to watch the House committee meetings where potential Articles of Impeachment were held. One can only watch their final hearing, when the committee voted to proceed, to learn that the republicans then were just as petty and nasty as they are today.

The second myth is that some good republican Senators, led by Barry Goldwater, ventured to the White House and convinced an unsure Richard Nixon that he had to resign. And that it was this meeting that was central to his resignation. However, that is inaccurate. Nixon had already decided to resign, after what was known as the “smoking gun” tape was made public. The republicans were not going to go against Nixon based upon, say, John Dean's testimony – any more than today's republicans would sink Trump based upon Michael Cohen's word. But once the investigation (and a court fight) produced that smoking gun, they had no choice. Goldwater merely told Nixon to hurry up, as he was destroying the republican party's chances in future elections.

I would suggest that after each of the past two weeks, the Mueller (and SDNY) investigation have made it a bit more difficult for republicans to justify continuing support for Trump. Yet, since we do inhabit reality, we cannot anticipate that there will be an immediate exodus of cringey republicans, turning away from Trump. No, it's a process, just as it was a process with Nixon. And that process is detailed accurately in EarlG's current OP. The grassroots' pressure, along with the media, played a central role in ending Nixon's presidency. And that's where we are at today.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11526562

Peace,
H2O Man

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Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Impeachment Measures (Original post)
H2O Man Dec 2018 OP
Iggo Dec 2018 #1
H2O Man Dec 2018 #3
violetpastille Dec 2018 #2
H2O Man Dec 2018 #14
panader0 Dec 2018 #4
H2O Man Dec 2018 #15
shraby Dec 2018 #5
H2O Man Dec 2018 #16
Blecht Dec 2018 #6
H2O Man Dec 2018 #17
pecosbob Dec 2018 #7
H2O Man Dec 2018 #18
Ford_Prefect Dec 2018 #8
H2O Man Dec 2018 #19
coeur_de_lion Dec 2018 #27
H2O Man Dec 2018 #30
JDC Dec 2018 #9
H2O Man Dec 2018 #20
rickyhall Dec 2018 #10
H2O Man Dec 2018 #21
Squinch Dec 2018 #11
H2O Man Dec 2018 #23
Squinch Dec 2018 #28
H2O Man Dec 2018 #31
Squinch Dec 2018 #42
mountain grammy Dec 2018 #12
H2O Man Dec 2018 #24
mountain grammy Dec 2018 #29
H2O Man Dec 2018 #32
mountain grammy Dec 2018 #36
alwaysinasnit Dec 2018 #13
H2O Man Dec 2018 #25
dalton99a Dec 2018 #22
spanone Dec 2018 #26
H2O Man Dec 2018 #33
spanone Dec 2018 #34
H2O Man Dec 2018 #35
lunatica Dec 2018 #38
lunatica Dec 2018 #37
H2O Man Dec 2018 #39
lunatica Dec 2018 #41
malaise Dec 2018 #40

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:36 PM

1. And so...patience, my friends. Sometimes it's hard work doing the right thing. (n/t)

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Response to Iggo (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:44 PM

3. Right.

Rubin used to tell me -- when I was young and patience was certainly not among my virtues -- that with patience, the smallest creature could climb the highest mountain.

I'd add that we should all keep the Constitution in mind. It isn't "perfect" -- nothing is -- but it spells out the best way to deal with a Trump. And there are some outstanding books, from the Watergate era to now, that explain this in great detail.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:41 PM

2. K & R

I'm not talking to any Republicans at the moment. Is there a perceptible shift in support of Trump?

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Response to violetpastille (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:12 AM

14. Good question.

As far as talking with people who voted for Trump, including republicans, I can only speak of my own experience. One group that stands out are the Vietnam veterans in my area. Quite a few voted for Trump. Of those, a portion now realize that they were lied to, and no longer support him.

In my upstate New York congressional district, Claudia Tenney ran for re-election, primarily by attaching herself to Trump. Indeed, Trump even came to Utica to campaign for her. There are fewer registered Democrats here, than republicans or independents. Yet, in my county, few if any republican office-holders endorsed her. In fact, several endorsed and campaigned for Anthony Brindisi. And of those, the majority are now anti-Trump.

Media reports note that numerous republican Senators in DC express strong concerns about Trump when they are off-the-record. As the Mueller investigation and House committees unveil more misdeeds by Trump, they will be forced to go on the record, particularly if they are up for re-election in 2020. They have already gotten the tax cuts for the opulent wealthy and the right-wing Supreme Court justices they wanted, and there is little more Trump can offer them.

Speaking of the USSC, it is important to keep in mind Chief Justice Robert's recent public statement about federal judges. When a conservative Chief Justice makes such a statement, it means that Trump's popularity among conservatives is decreasing.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 01:54 PM

4. Great quote from Mr. Carter.

Recommended.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:17 AM

15. Rubin was a unique human being.

I spent much of the day reading through some of the letters he sent over the years, after I posted this OP. Lots of good memories.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:27 PM

5. Everything needs to wait for Feb. 3 when the House changes hands.

Then put pressure on Pence to leave for his crimes because it takes the house and senate to confirm a new v.p. and after he's gone, take out Trump.
The house and senate would never confirm a new v.p. for trump.

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Response to shraby (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:20 AM

16. Right.

We aren't where we need to be yet, but we are getting there. The two most important factors will be the continuing court filings from Mr. Mueller's team and the SDNY, and what the various House Committees uncover.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:33 PM

6. Thank you for your posts

I've been meaning to say this for a while. Your posts are always insightful and often inspiring. Thanks for taking the time to share them here.

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Response to Blecht (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:21 AM

17. Oh, thank you!

I appreciate that.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 02:52 PM

7. Truth will out

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Response to pecosbob (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:22 AM

18. Indeed, it will!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:34 PM

8. Mueller is bit by legal bit surrounding Trump with evidence of his crimes.

The wall Trump and the GOP get will be quite different from the one he's been demanding. It is made of the details of the GOP, oligarch, and Russian conspiracy to overthrow and disable the mechanisms and structure of legal government in America. This is about so much more than Trump the man or even Trump the President. It is about arresting and convicting the entire criminal enterprise he fronts.

With Nixon, it was the inescapable evidence of his overwhelming guilt which finally led the Republicans in Congress to conclude they could not keep him in office. It took a long time to persuade some of them he'd done anything at all wrong and longer still for them to see the degree of his corruption. They tried over and over to say it was rouge actions by overzealous underlings rather than actions taken due to an executive command and later covered up. In the end, they succeeded in limiting the damage through his resignation and Ford's pardon. No one got to see where the money and coordination had come from to enable all the dirty tricks. The machine continued unimpeded by legal consequence and delivered 12 years of Reagan/Bush and a completely corrupted GOP.



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Response to Ford_Prefect (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:33 AM

19. Well said.

Nixon was the cancer on the presidency that John Dean had spoken of, but mistakenly identified. But by not taking all of the disease out, and simply believing removing Nixon was the cure, it allowed the corruption to metastasize into the Reagan-Bush scandals that are collectively known as Iran-Contra. Likewise, the failure to remove all that infection led to the Plame scandal, and eventually to Trump.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:06 PM

27. January 3rd seems a lifetime away right now

But I believe Pelosi is using this time to put together her plan of action. And Mueller is grinding away slowly developing his legal arguments. From what we've seen so far he is a brilliant legal mind.

But if we failed to root out all of the corruption with Nixon, again with Reagan-Bush, and a 3rd time with Bush Jr., how can we do it now?

It's been quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) festering away for 46 years, getting worse and worse until finally it rears it's ugly head again with lethal results -- the filthy disgusting trump presidency and his compliant GOP.

It isn't only trump who is corrupt. The reublican party itself is as corrupt as he is.

How will be extricate ourselves once and for all?

Asking for a friend.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:58 PM

30. In my opinion

the best thing we can do is start with the Constitution. It's curious how some people get very upset if a black athlete doesn't stand for the national anthem, or are ultra-sensitive about the flag, but are A-Okay with Trump trampling the Constitution. Now, I like songs and symbols, but I am more concerned with the Constitution. It needs to be understood as a living document.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:34 PM

9. Bump and Rec. Really like that quote/thoughts.

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Response to JDC (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:34 AM

20. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:41 PM

10. I'd just like to see both gone & Ms. Pelosi in their place!

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Response to rickyhall (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:50 AM

21. Right!

I limited myself to working with two congressional candidates this year (and two state elections). Perhaps it is more accurate to say that my limitations resulted in my limited ability to work with as many as I would have liked to. Both of the candidates I supported were pro-impeachment, and both won.

Where I disagreed with both was on Ms. Pelosi. Both said they would not support her for Speaker of the House. I appreciated that they were campaigning as agents of change, and was willing to listen with an open mind to any solid position on why she should be replaced, but I never heard one. Thus, I believed that her experience in winning the federal court struggle to force the release of documents that Bush-Cheney were refusing to provide Congress was in and of itself essential for the potential Democratic House.

And here we are! I believe that Ari has focused on the significance of this on MSNBC. I haven't heard anyone else in the media speak about this, though perhaps others have. Ari reported that Nancy is already putting together the legal team the Democrats will need, when Trump refuses to provide requested documents.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:13 PM

11. I favor impeachment, but I see no reason to insult those who do not.

Those on our side who disagree with you on this make you think this?:
"They know nothing about the measure of thought, nor do they believe in the power of ideas, and therefore they have nothing to support themselves with.”


Really?

Because they fear, not without reason, that impeachment without conviction might be problematic?

And then you sign "peace."





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Response to Squinch (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:54 AM

23. Thank you.

As I noted in another response, I spent some time yesterday, after posting this, reading through old letters from Rubin. One of the points he made in one of my favorite letters -- a very long one he penned while in solitary confinement during what was his Buddha phase -- was that people are only capable of interpreting information on their own level of understanding. The various responses to this OP confirm that.

Peace

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:27 PM

28. A little passive aggression? Peace.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:00 PM

31. You are silly.

No, not passive-aggressive. You are projecting. Ha-ha. Actually, I don't know you, and from this brief interaction, have no interest in doing so. But best of luck to you -- I wish you well.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 05:10 PM

42. But that's not passive aggression? LOLOLOL! Peace.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:17 PM

12. K&R and thank you.

That’s exactly where we’re at today.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:58 AM

24. Thanks, Buddy!

I believe that, from where we are today, we are heading in the correct direction. It will take time, and require both patience and hard work. And that includes the grass roots …..it wasn't enough to campaign for, vote for, and elect a new Democratic House. That was just the beginning.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 12:28 PM

29. We are literally taking our country back

from corporate greed and religious overreach. It’s gonna be a battle, but, in whatever time I have left I’d like to see us at least get back to center, where Obama so skillfully kept us. I have so much more appreciation for him, not that I didn’t always love him, but, well, you know what I mean.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:07 PM

32. I have great respect

for President Obama. I didn't always agree with his positions or actions, but that is to be expected. As Malcolm X said, any time two people think just alike, it means that only one is thinking. And that lack of thinking is always a problem when it comes to how parts of the public supports someone -- Trump being the obvious example -- no matter what they do.

I also admire Michelle. I wish that she were president, and that there was a good Democratic Congress. And while that is not likely to happen in my lifetime, I'm investing what energy I have into opening the door to something similar to that in my children's lifetimes.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:57 PM

36. That's exactly how I feel

and I completely agree about Michelle.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 04:21 PM

13. Excellent analysis. K&R

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Response to alwaysinasnit (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:59 AM

25. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 10:50 AM

22. Kick

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 11:55 AM

26. K&R...

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Response to spanone (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:07 PM

33. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:10 PM

34. I believe when Mueller shows all his cards, the House will have no choice but to impeach.

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Response to spanone (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 01:12 PM

35. Right.

I agree. It is a process. And what is unfolding doesn't look good for Trump.

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Response to spanone (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 02:15 PM

38. I fervently hope you're right

There must be a point of no return.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 02:13 PM

37. Have you ever considered publishing The Hurricane's letters?

Or publishing a compilation of his quotes?

He was as wise as Mandela.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:36 PM

39. Interesting.

I've had a number of people suggest that I use them for a book. I go back and forth on that.

One of my favorite memories is of answering the phone, late at night, and talking to Rubin when he was with Mandela. They were connected.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:44 PM

41. If you contacted some representatives in the Black Caucus you might

get directed to some organizations you could contact to get you started.

I imagine he corresponded with many people.

I suggested this because we all need real life heroes and thinkers.

I wish I had known him. And it’s because of the way you talk about him.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2018, 03:44 PM

40. Great post

Thanks WaterMan.

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