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Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:20 AM

Breaking: Bubbling ... the news isn't good

Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:02 PM PST
Breaking: Bubbling ... the news isn't good
by A Siegel

...In the backdrop of our lives, the atmospheric carbon dioxide count keeps mounting higher. While a level of 350 ppm might represent safety for human civilization, we are closing on 400 with little hope of keeping below 450 ppm (and likely to keep moving beyon that). We are already seeing climate catastrophe with mounting climate chaos (from droughts in Texas to floods in Durban around climate talks to ...) causing damage and, yes, killing people.

One of the great concerns has been a basic question: at what point does the situation move beyond humanity's ability to control. When do we reach the point where 'positive feedbacks' (no, positive is not a good thing) create out-of-control runaway conditions that will push catastrophic climate chaos into a death spiral for species after species ... potentially even humanity.

One of the greatest concerns: methane burps (and Arctic methane release -- including permafrost melting). That methane hydrates, methane capture at low temperatures and under pressure in the ocean, will start to release in massive amounts that will lead to runaway conditions. Methane, as a reminder, is roughly 25 times as serious a greenhouse gas per molecule than carbon dioxide.



The news ... Russian scientists have reported massive size methane bubbling in areas of Arctic ice retreat, far before anything ever recorded before:

"Earlier we found torch-like structures like this but they were only tens of metres in diameter. This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing," Dr Semiletov said. "I was most impressed by the sheer scale and high density of the plumes. Over a relatively small area we found more than 100, but over a wider area there should be thousands of them."


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044726/-Breaking:-Bubbling--the-news-isnt-good?via=siderec

62 replies, 13672 views

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Arrow 62 replies Author Time Post
Reply Breaking: Bubbling ... the news isn't good (Original post)
FourScore Dec 2011 OP
Cigar11 Dec 2011 #1
xchrom Dec 2011 #2
ThomWV Dec 2011 #3
FourScore Dec 2011 #4
Duppers Dec 2011 #5
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #18
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2011 #40
hootinholler Dec 2011 #8
jtuck004 Dec 2011 #21
rurallib Dec 2011 #6
Pachamama Dec 2011 #7
opihimoimoi Dec 2011 #9
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #29
opihimoimoi Dec 2011 #38
redqueen Dec 2011 #10
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #12
redqueen Dec 2011 #13
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #26
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #58
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #60
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2011 #61
Bragi Dec 2011 #49
dogknob Dec 2011 #11
redqueen Dec 2011 #14
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #30
eShirl Dec 2011 #15
sce56 Dec 2011 #16
Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #17
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #31
Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #39
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #41
LineLineLineLineLineReply .
Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #45
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #46
Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #51
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #55
T S Justly Dec 2011 #19
blackspade Dec 2011 #20
burrowowl Dec 2011 #22
Moostache Dec 2011 #23
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #33
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2011 #35
lonestarnot Dec 2011 #24
G_j Dec 2011 #25
cliffordu Dec 2011 #27
lunatica Dec 2011 #28
Bragi Dec 2011 #32
The Doctor. Dec 2011 #34
certainot Dec 2011 #43
alfredo Dec 2011 #37
alfredo Dec 2011 #36
certainot Dec 2011 #42
Bragi Dec 2011 #44
certainot Dec 2011 #47
Bragi Dec 2011 #48
certainot Dec 2011 #50
Stuart G Dec 2011 #52
Motown_Johnny Dec 2011 #53
MzShellG Dec 2011 #54
librechik Dec 2011 #56
raouldukelives Dec 2011 #57
benld74 Dec 2011 #59
Quantess Dec 2011 #62

Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:22 AM

1. Science …

Who needs Science?

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:23 AM

2. recommend

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:24 AM

3. Capture it, compress it, and push it back underground.

 

I guess people aren't aware of this, but we keep millions of cubic feet of natural gas stored in compression underground (in northern salt domes). Gas rising from the seabed should be the easiest gas to collect imaginable and it is capable of providing the energy necessary for its own compression. Add those two things together and you have a solvable problem.

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Response to ThomWV (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:26 AM

4. How in the world are you going to capture a gas release over such a wide area?

If it were easy, I think they would be doing it.

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Response to FourScore (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:39 AM

5. You're so right. It's impossible to capture it all or even most of it.

Btw, the video was made in the summer of 2007.

So if it were easy, as you said, 4Score, they would already be doing it.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:50 PM

18. Not easy, indeed, but imperative.

 

We need to turn some Big Science upon this.

Sounds like Captain Obvious, but until they actually DO turn to solving it, I'll keep reminding everyone.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:57 AM

40. Plus, the area is getting wider and wider and wider as more artic melting takes place.

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Response to FourScore (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:08 PM

8. With a really, really big funnel

Or membrane.

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Response to FourScore (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:27 AM

21. A HUGE Condom. Trojan could pay for it with advertising. /nt

 

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:50 AM

6. K & R

marked to come back to.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 05:04 PM

7. Sigh.....

Pachamama is pissed....

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:14 PM

9. Humanity and its band aids....we humans are so friggen stoopid we allow this beautiful PLANET

to degrade to this point and way beyond...all the while talking Tebow, Am Idol, or Aruba.

Where is the Leader to take us to the Land of Plenty??? Why don't we design a program to nfix this friggen thing?

Well I did....

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Response to opihimoimoi (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:11 AM

29. Oh no, it'll stay a beautiful planet.

 


The only thing that will live on it will be bacteria though.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:56 AM

38. The Galatic Hall of Shame will get another Name for a SELF EXTINCTING SPECIES....Humans

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:17 PM

10. I worry it may already be too late.

And the major countries are still squabbling over who gets to keep polluting and for how long.

It's sickening, but greed rules everything.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:23 PM

12. No, it is NOT too late.

 

It's going to take massive work, but it is NOT too late.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:29 PM

13. I hope you're right.

Let's just hope there aren't any more significant positive feedback loops that we don't know about yet. Would be nice to have more negative ones as well.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:41 AM

26. Actually, this is the signal that it is too late.

 


It's a severe tipping point.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:29 PM

58. We Are Smarter Than Methane.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:09 PM

60. It can't be reasoned with.

 

And apparently we're not 'smarter'. Otherwise 'we' wouldn't be staring down the barrel of "Oh Fuck!"

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:11 PM

61. "Oh Fuck!" is when we get our shit together and fix problems.

 

We just need enough people getting together, to solve this problem.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:27 PM

49. Why it IS too late

It is too late because there is zero possibility that humankind will begin the "massive work" that would be required to save ourselves.

Turns out we are a pretty successful species but for our apparent inability to develop political, economic and social mechanisms needed to take action now so as to avoid a calamity later, no matter how certain that future calamity may be.

This is why I have no hope at all that we will be able to avoid the absolute worst possible climactic outcomes and the attendant wars, famines, migrations, etc.

I'm glad I'm 61 years old, as I won't have to live through the worst of what's coming.

If our grandchildren murdered my generation in our sleep, though, I'd not really be able to say they are wrong in doing so, given the destructiveness of our stupidity.

Fuck, this is bad.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:20 PM

11. PTB will just accept it as inevitable.

Remember that groovy things are supposed to happen after Armageddon.

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Response to dogknob (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:36 PM

14. “We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand.”

- James Watt: Reagan administration Secy. of the Interior

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:13 AM

30. That's actually a myth.

 


Although it wouldn't surprise me if that's what he actually thought.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:17 PM

15. I could swear there were reports a few years ago this was already happening. n/t

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Response to eShirl (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:44 PM

16. See #5 above

 

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:48 PM

17. and there it is, the beginning of the end

 

Once these start to go the greenhouse effect will run wild and it will cause even more of them to go.


We may already be beyond saving.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:16 AM

31. That is correct. Now would be the time to start making travel arrangement to any planet

 

more hospitable than Venus.

Because there's now a high chance Earth could become Venutian.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:56 AM

39. IMO we would need to bring Ceres into an eccentric near Mars orbit

 

so that the gravitational kneading would melt the water ice on Ceres, giving us a water supply, and possibly even get some type of action going in the Mars core so we could eventually have a magnetic field to protect us from radiation.

Without that life on Mars is a pipe dream, and it is the only other option we have.

(The other option is to crash Ceres into Mars, but that might cause more problems than it solves)

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:02 AM

41. What's the mass of ceres?

 

Familiar with Stephen Baxter?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:34 AM

45. .

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ceres_Earth_Moon_Comparison.png






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)

^snip^

Mass 9.43 ± 0.07×1020 kg[9]
0.00015 Earths
0.0128 Moons




and no, I am not familiar with Stephen Baxter (although I did just do a google search and am checking him out now)


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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:41 AM

46. Pretty.

 


If you like astro-engineering, Baxter is the Prodigy of Arthur C. Clark. You'd love it.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:48 PM

51. I'm an Asimov guy

 


I have read a dozen or so of Clark's works but am not a huge fan. He wouldn't even make my top 3 (Herbert and Card)

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:12 PM

55. As in 'Orson Scott'?

 


Yeah, very good stuff. Too much 'end justifies the means' kind of guy though.

Stephen Baxter, like Clarke, is a prophet of human destiny. Not in too many specific ways, even though Clarke predicted satellites and the space elevator, but prescient nonetheless.

Baxter's vision of humanity working beyond short-sighted lifetimes on projects that take millenia to complete, long after those that start them are gone, is something we must embrace if we are to survive as a race. Our immense ignorance and myopathy is going to cost us dearly, if it doesn't outright kill us. Hopefully we will learn from the damage we do. Then we can begin to become a worthwhile race.

I highly recommend the vision, even if you aren't into the material.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:01 AM

19. Thank capitalism (nt)

 

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:12 AM

20. Tragically, we are past the point of 'human' control.

The best we can do at this point is mitigate the damage.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:31 AM

22. K&R

We've unlocked a Monster

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 04:43 AM

23. The tragic thing is that NONE of this was necessary!

Climate Change
Resource Depletion
Runaway Wealth Disparity
Endless War
Lost Freedom and Rights

We had a chance to create such a different world than what we hath wrought on this Earth.

I used to get really upset by this fact. It used to bother me immensely that a dolt like Bush was President. I have been outraged for so long that I have simply run out of fuel to keep the intensity going...in many ways I have become a collapsing star...the only question is if I have enough left to go supernova one last time or if I will just blink out into an imploding black hole.

We should all enjoy the last hurrahs of the death of technological capitalism...it will NOT be remembered fondly in the future and those who survive this mess for a few more generations will forbid our warped culture from even being mentioned...but hey, Amazon has a Kindle Fire (that sucks ass) for only $199! Look! Shiny things!

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Response to Moostache (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:02 AM

33. Even more...

 

If our descendents pull through and the climate is still survivable (ie: 'not like Venus), they will likely reorder society around science, and absolutely NO bullshit like we have seen will be tolerated.

Those that put the health of the people and the environment in jeopardy for a profit will be tried, found guilty, and summarily executed.

If only we could realize that our dedication to 'civility' gives such license to these greedy bastards. I don't want to give up civility, but these assholes hide safely behind their resources while wreaking havoc and devastation on our children.

I can only hope that future generations will have exactly zero tolerance for such creatures.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:11 AM

35. What drives the runaway degradation? OVERPOPULATION

It should be at the top of the flow chart, resulting in all these...

Climate Change
Resource Depletion
Runaway Wealth Disparity
Endless War
Lost Freedom and Rights



It's people that create all of these issues. The more dense our encroachment, the more degradation and destruction we wreak.

I love individual people, but masses and masses of humanity are the #1 threat, over-stressing the entire system.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:08 AM

24. No Santa? No North Pole?

 

Cow fart pole.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:39 AM

25. knr

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:01 AM

27. Borscht farts coming back to haunt.....??

(I am so sorry.......I'm stupid from lack of sleep...)

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:06 AM

28. How would they know if we're not past the point of no return?

That's just scientists being cautious in their language. If Methane is erupting out of the melting permafrost who the fuck is going to stop it? Some giant refrigerator?

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Response to lunatica (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 09:36 AM

32. The Bible will show the way

We know from the Bible that the world can't end until the ungodly and the Jews float upwards so as to be incinerated in the sky by an angry, genocidal but loving gawd.

You're welcome.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:04 AM

34. They know. Like you said...

 

They just don't want to sound crazy. The climate science community is marginalized enough as it is. If they all started saying what they believe is happening, the media would sideline them for good.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:12 AM

43. a big part of that in US is RW talk radio intimidation- please see post below....

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Response to lunatica (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:51 AM

37. Methane is being released by melting permafrost. CO2 ain't shit

compared to methane when it comes to greenhouse gasses.

We are toast. It won't matter if we land butter side up or down.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 10:47 AM

36. Now all we need is a careless cigarette tossed overboard.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:09 AM

42. we have to get our university sports off RW radio/ global warming denial stations

the major enabler of GOP obstruction is RW radio.

no GOP candidate or rep wants to contradict limbaugh's denial- calling limbaugh a liar or fool is still a no no for any GOP politician and that has to change before the obstruction will end.

he and the RW radio monopoly will take a major fall if universities are forced to break their sports broadcasting contracts with those radio stations, which depend on them heavily.

all unis have mission statements that would prohibit those associations with GW denial, racism, sexism, partisan lying, etc., if taken seriously.

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Response to certainot (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:18 AM

44. Thanks

If you are suggesting that all colleges break their contracts with RW radio stations because they conflict with their mission statements, then that sounds like a really good idea.

My concern, though, is how doing this doesn't involve at least the appearance of suppressing "free political speech", which would be very problematic for any college or university?

What say you on that?

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Response to Bragi (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 11:59 AM

47. those unis are 'requiring' their students to listen to those stations

that is their usual cry, but it is clear that any station that headlines limbaugh is GOP partisan -and by broadcasting on a station they are endorsing that station in the sense that they are 'requiring' their students to listen to that station to hear the broadcast. there are alternatives but not for free or without high speed.

almost always those stations are 100% republican in regard to their talkers. there is no balance. that is one thing that a university might demand. those stations also almost universally deny GW- they can't cross limbaugh.

a common defense is they are entertainers but that really is a joke that wouldn't stand scrutiny.

the publicity of trying this will shame local sponsors away- i've talked to some over the years- very few are willing to defend the limbaughs and hannitys and most are making business decisions- the 'support' is soft IMO and a little publicity that students and faculty and communities would give this if they tried would go a long way.

limbaugh is also demonstrably racist and sexist with a long record of it. his recent attacks on herman cain's accusers were pretty indicative of what he's been doing for 20 years.

being specific about limbaugh would help in the long i think.

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Response to certainot (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:17 PM

48. Good luck with that campaign

I mean it, I'd like to see you succeed. I suspect the best way to go is via sponsors rather than asking the unis to take direct action, which I think remains problematic because of the free political speech issue, and the fact that many/most of these Big Sports unis are publicly financed and hence have to think about 1st amendment matters.

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Response to Bragi (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:48 PM

50. thanks. i don't know how that 1st am shakes out in this

i might do a diary soon and get some opinions.

at the least, students and faculty should be pissed and doing petitions

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 12:51 PM

52. k & r thanks for posting...nt

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 01:26 PM

53. here is another story on the same subject (makes it sound even worse)

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2073686/Fountains-methane-1-000m-erupt-Arctic-ice--greenhouse-gas-30-times-potent-carbon-dioxide.html?ito=feeds-newsxml


^snip^


'Fountains' of methane 1,000m across erupt from Arctic ice - a greenhouse gas 30 times more potent than carbon dioxide

-'Methane fields on a scale not seen before' - researcher
-More than 100 fountains, but could be 'thousands'
-Could cause rapid climate change



This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing.'

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:38 PM

54. Whoa.....

I know methane is bad but can someone please explain this in layman's terms? Such as, what are runaway conditions. This is pretty unnerving & I'm just trying to understand what's happening.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:21 PM

56. From Yesterday's Daily Mail: "'Fountains' of Methane 1000m across erupt from Arctic Ice"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2073686/Fountains-methane-1-000m-erupt-Arctic-ice--greenhouse-gas-30-times-potent-carbon-dioxide.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

"This is the first time we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures..."


It's gotten worse since this was published in Der Spiegel in 2008

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547976,00.html

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:32 PM

57. Great time to max out your 401k

You might not have as much time left to profit off destroying the planet as you thought.

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:38 PM

59. 'Tis only divers after having Mexican for lunch,,,,,

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Response to FourScore (Original post)

Thu Dec 15, 2011, 07:15 PM

62. K & R

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