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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBreaking: Bubbling ... the news isn't good
Mon Dec 12, 2011 at 07:02 PM PST
Breaking: Bubbling ... the news isn't good
by A Siegel
...In the backdrop of our lives, the atmospheric carbon dioxide count keeps mounting higher. While a level of 350 ppm might represent safety for human civilization, we are closing on 400 with little hope of keeping below 450 ppm (and likely to keep moving beyon that). We are already seeing climate catastrophe with mounting climate chaos (from droughts in Texas to floods in Durban around climate talks to ...) causing damage and, yes, killing people.
One of the great concerns has been a basic question: at what point does the situation move beyond humanity's ability to control. When do we reach the point where 'positive feedbacks' (no, positive is not a good thing) create out-of-control runaway conditions that will push catastrophic climate chaos into a death spiral for species after species ... potentially even humanity.
One of the greatest concerns: methane burps (and Arctic methane release -- including permafrost melting). That methane hydrates, methane capture at low temperatures and under pressure in the ocean, will start to release in massive amounts that will lead to runaway conditions. Methane, as a reminder, is roughly 25 times as serious a greenhouse gas per molecule than carbon dioxide.
The news ... Russian scientists have reported massive size methane bubbling in areas of Arctic ice retreat, far before anything ever recorded before:
"Earlier we found torch-like structures like this but they were only tens of metres in diameter. This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing," Dr Semiletov said. "I was most impressed by the sheer scale and high density of the plumes. Over a relatively small area we found more than 100, but over a wider area there should be thousands of them."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/12/1044726/-Breaking:-Bubbling--the-news-isnt-good?via=siderec
Cigar11
(549 posts)Who needs Science?
xchrom
(108,903 posts)ThomWV
(19,841 posts)I guess people aren't aware of this, but we keep millions of cubic feet of natural gas stored in compression underground (in northern salt domes). Gas rising from the seabed should be the easiest gas to collect imaginable and it is capable of providing the energy necessary for its own compression. Add those two things together and you have a solvable problem.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)If it were easy, I think they would be doing it.
Duppers
(28,117 posts)Btw, the video was made in the summer of 2007.
So if it were easy, as you said, 4Score, they would already be doing it.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)We need to turn some Big Science upon this.
Sounds like Captain Obvious, but until they actually DO turn to solving it, I'll keep reminding everyone.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Or membrane.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)rurallib
(62,401 posts)marked to come back to.
Pachamama
(16,886 posts)Pachamama is pissed....
opihimoimoi
(52,426 posts)to degrade to this point and way beyond...all the while talking Tebow, Am Idol, or Aruba.
Where is the Leader to take us to the Land of Plenty??? Why don't we design a program to nfix this friggen thing?
Well I did....
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)The only thing that will live on it will be bacteria though.
opihimoimoi
(52,426 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)And the major countries are still squabbling over who gets to keep polluting and for how long.
It's sickening, but greed rules everything.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)It's going to take massive work, but it is NOT too late.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Let's just hope there aren't any more significant positive feedback loops that we don't know about yet. Would be nice to have more negative ones as well.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)It's a severe tipping point.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)And apparently we're not 'smarter'. Otherwise 'we' wouldn't be staring down the barrel of "Oh Fuck!"
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)We just need enough people getting together, to solve this problem.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)It is too late because there is zero possibility that humankind will begin the "massive work" that would be required to save ourselves.
Turns out we are a pretty successful species but for our apparent inability to develop political, economic and social mechanisms needed to take action now so as to avoid a calamity later, no matter how certain that future calamity may be.
This is why I have no hope at all that we will be able to avoid the absolute worst possible climactic outcomes and the attendant wars, famines, migrations, etc.
I'm glad I'm 61 years old, as I won't have to live through the worst of what's coming.
If our grandchildren murdered my generation in our sleep, though, I'd not really be able to say they are wrong in doing so, given the destructiveness of our stupidity.
Fuck, this is bad.
dogknob
(2,431 posts)Remember that groovy things are supposed to happen after Armageddon.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)- James Watt: Reagan administration Secy. of the Interior
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Although it wouldn't surprise me if that's what he actually thought.
eShirl
(18,488 posts)sce56
(4,828 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Once these start to go the greenhouse effect will run wild and it will cause even more of them to go.
We may already be beyond saving.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)more hospitable than Venus.
Because there's now a high chance Earth could become Venutian.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)so that the gravitational kneading would melt the water ice on Ceres, giving us a water supply, and possibly even get some type of action going in the Mars core so we could eventually have a magnetic field to protect us from radiation.
Without that life on Mars is a pipe dream, and it is the only other option we have.
(The other option is to crash Ceres into Mars, but that might cause more problems than it solves)
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Familiar with Stephen Baxter?
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
^snip^
Mass 9.43 ± 0.07×1020 kg[9]
0.00015 Earths
0.0128 Moons
and no, I am not familiar with Stephen Baxter (although I did just do a google search and am checking him out now)
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)If you like astro-engineering, Baxter is the Prodigy of Arthur C. Clark. You'd love it.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)I have read a dozen or so of Clark's works but am not a huge fan. He wouldn't even make my top 3 (Herbert and Card)
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)Yeah, very good stuff. Too much 'end justifies the means' kind of guy though.
Stephen Baxter, like Clarke, is a prophet of human destiny. Not in too many specific ways, even though Clarke predicted satellites and the space elevator, but prescient nonetheless.
Baxter's vision of humanity working beyond short-sighted lifetimes on projects that take millenia to complete, long after those that start them are gone, is something we must embrace if we are to survive as a race. Our immense ignorance and myopathy is going to cost us dearly, if it doesn't outright kill us. Hopefully we will learn from the damage we do. Then we can begin to become a worthwhile race.
I highly recommend the vision, even if you aren't into the material.
T S Justly
(884 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)The best we can do at this point is mitigate the damage.
burrowowl
(17,636 posts)We've unlocked a Monster
Moostache
(9,895 posts)Climate Change
Resource Depletion
Runaway Wealth Disparity
Endless War
Lost Freedom and Rights
We had a chance to create such a different world than what we hath wrought on this Earth.
I used to get really upset by this fact. It used to bother me immensely that a dolt like Bush was President. I have been outraged for so long that I have simply run out of fuel to keep the intensity going...in many ways I have become a collapsing star...the only question is if I have enough left to go supernova one last time or if I will just blink out into an imploding black hole.
We should all enjoy the last hurrahs of the death of technological capitalism...it will NOT be remembered fondly in the future and those who survive this mess for a few more generations will forbid our warped culture from even being mentioned...but hey, Amazon has a Kindle Fire (that sucks ass) for only $199! Look! Shiny things!
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)If our descendents pull through and the climate is still survivable (ie: 'not like Venus), they will likely reorder society around science, and absolutely NO bullshit like we have seen will be tolerated.
Those that put the health of the people and the environment in jeopardy for a profit will be tried, found guilty, and summarily executed.
If only we could realize that our dedication to 'civility' gives such license to these greedy bastards. I don't want to give up civility, but these assholes hide safely behind their resources while wreaking havoc and devastation on our children.
I can only hope that future generations will have exactly zero tolerance for such creatures.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)It should be at the top of the flow chart, resulting in all these...
Climate Change
Resource Depletion
Runaway Wealth Disparity
Endless War
Lost Freedom and Rights
It's people that create all of these issues. The more dense our encroachment, the more degradation and destruction we wreak.
I love individual people, but masses and masses of humanity are the #1 threat, over-stressing the entire system.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Cow fart pole.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)(I am so sorry.......I'm stupid from lack of sleep...)
lunatica
(53,410 posts)That's just scientists being cautious in their language. If Methane is erupting out of the melting permafrost who the fuck is going to stop it? Some giant refrigerator?
Bragi
(7,650 posts)We know from the Bible that the world can't end until the ungodly and the Jews float upwards so as to be incinerated in the sky by an angry, genocidal but loving gawd.
You're welcome.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)They just don't want to sound crazy. The climate science community is marginalized enough as it is. If they all started saying what they believe is happening, the media would sideline them for good.
certainot
(9,090 posts)alfredo
(60,071 posts)compared to methane when it comes to greenhouse gasses.
We are toast. It won't matter if we land butter side up or down.
alfredo
(60,071 posts)certainot
(9,090 posts)the major enabler of GOP obstruction is RW radio.
no GOP candidate or rep wants to contradict limbaugh's denial- calling limbaugh a liar or fool is still a no no for any GOP politician and that has to change before the obstruction will end.
he and the RW radio monopoly will take a major fall if universities are forced to break their sports broadcasting contracts with those radio stations, which depend on them heavily.
all unis have mission statements that would prohibit those associations with GW denial, racism, sexism, partisan lying, etc., if taken seriously.
If you are suggesting that all colleges break their contracts with RW radio stations because they conflict with their mission statements, then that sounds like a really good idea.
My concern, though, is how doing this doesn't involve at least the appearance of suppressing "free political speech", which would be very problematic for any college or university?
What say you on that?
certainot
(9,090 posts)that is their usual cry, but it is clear that any station that headlines limbaugh is GOP partisan -and by broadcasting on a station they are endorsing that station in the sense that they are 'requiring' their students to listen to that station to hear the broadcast. there are alternatives but not for free or without high speed.
almost always those stations are 100% republican in regard to their talkers. there is no balance. that is one thing that a university might demand. those stations also almost universally deny GW- they can't cross limbaugh.
a common defense is they are entertainers but that really is a joke that wouldn't stand scrutiny.
the publicity of trying this will shame local sponsors away- i've talked to some over the years- very few are willing to defend the limbaughs and hannitys and most are making business decisions- the 'support' is soft IMO and a little publicity that students and faculty and communities would give this if they tried would go a long way.
limbaugh is also demonstrably racist and sexist with a long record of it. his recent attacks on herman cain's accusers were pretty indicative of what he's been doing for 20 years.
being specific about limbaugh would help in the long i think.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)I mean it, I'd like to see you succeed. I suspect the best way to go is via sponsors rather than asking the unis to take direct action, which I think remains problematic because of the free political speech issue, and the fact that many/most of these Big Sports unis are publicly financed and hence have to think about 1st amendment matters.
certainot
(9,090 posts)i might do a diary soon and get some opinions.
at the least, students and faculty should be pissed and doing petitions
Stuart G
(38,414 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)^snip^
'Fountains' of methane 1,000m across erupt from Arctic ice - a greenhouse gas 30 times more potent than carbon dioxide
-'Methane fields on a scale not seen before' - researcher
-More than 100 fountains, but could be 'thousands'
-Could cause rapid climate change
This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing.'
MzShellG
(1,047 posts)I know methane is bad but can someone please explain this in layman's terms? Such as, what are runaway conditions. This is pretty unnerving & I'm just trying to understand what's happening.
librechik
(30,674 posts)"This is the first time we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures..."
It's gotten worse since this was published in Der Spiegel in 2008
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547976,00.html
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)You might not have as much time left to profit off destroying the planet as you thought.