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Sun Dec 23, 2018, 06:59 PM

 

Is arguing that older elected officials should make way for younger ones "Identity Politics?"

If not, why not?

114 replies, 3456 views

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Reply Is arguing that older elected officials should make way for younger ones "Identity Politics?" (Original post)
EffieBlack Dec 2018 OP
mcar Dec 2018 #1
JI7 Dec 2018 #2
HopeAgain Dec 2018 #67
treestar Dec 2018 #111
delisen Dec 2018 #3
juxtaposed Dec 2018 #8
delisen Dec 2018 #16
juxtaposed Dec 2018 #20
Igel Dec 2018 #47
HopeAgain Dec 2018 #68
delisen Dec 2018 #74
guruoo Dec 2018 #73
Snackshack Dec 2018 #4
Squinch Dec 2018 #5
msongs Dec 2018 #6
bitterross Dec 2018 #7
Codeine Dec 2018 #9
bitterross Dec 2018 #10
Codeine Dec 2018 #12
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #19
Codeine Dec 2018 #23
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #26
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #14
juxtaposed Dec 2018 #15
pnwmom Dec 2018 #76
drmeow Dec 2018 #100
treestar Dec 2018 #112
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #113
WeekiWater Dec 2018 #11
melman Dec 2018 #13
PufPuf23 Dec 2018 #24
melman Dec 2018 #25
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #28
melman Dec 2018 #37
Ciaphas Cain Dec 2018 #36
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #27
PufPuf23 Dec 2018 #41
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #43
PufPuf23 Dec 2018 #56
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #42
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #44
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #45
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #57
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #84
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #91
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #92
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #98
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #109
guruoo Dec 2018 #72
treestar Dec 2018 #66
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #82
treestar Dec 2018 #89
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #90
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #17
delisen Dec 2018 #18
Autumn Dec 2018 #21
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #22
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #29
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #31
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #33
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #34
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #35
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #40
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #48
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #50
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #54
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #58
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #59
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #60
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #63
JHan Dec 2018 #64
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #46
TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #52
Me. Dec 2018 #62
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #65
Me. Dec 2018 #69
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #80
Me. Dec 2018 #96
Autumn Dec 2018 #32
samnsara Dec 2018 #30
SMC22307 Dec 2018 #38
DonCoquixote Dec 2018 #39
guruoo Dec 2018 #49
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #51
guruoo Dec 2018 #71
betsuni Dec 2018 #53
customerserviceguy Dec 2018 #55
Me. Dec 2018 #61
betsuni Dec 2018 #70
pnwmom Dec 2018 #75
dawg day Dec 2018 #77
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #81
tirebiter Dec 2018 #78
oberliner Dec 2018 #79
ananda Dec 2018 #83
whistler162 Dec 2018 #95
Tom Rinaldo Dec 2018 #85
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #87
Tom Rinaldo Dec 2018 #97
TCJ70 Dec 2018 #86
Maeve Dec 2018 #88
GoCubsGo Dec 2018 #93
whistler162 Dec 2018 #94
Autumn Dec 2018 #99
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #104
PubliusEnigma Dec 2018 #101
matt819 Dec 2018 #102
drmeow Dec 2018 #103
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #108
crazycatlady Dec 2018 #114
johnp3907 Dec 2018 #105
melman Dec 2018 #107
PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 2018 #106
EffieBlack Dec 2018 #110

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:01 PM

1. Yes. NT

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:02 PM

2. paul ryan was a young speaker . I don't think he brought anything positive

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Response to JI7 (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 10:50 PM

67. Paul Ryan is a heartless fraud

What does that have to do with anything?

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:40 PM

111. It has to do with the claim younger is better

The point is Ryan is young and he's bad.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:04 PM

3. Yes and it also helps Putin achieve his goal of disrupting democracy

by turning Americans against each other.

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Response to delisen (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:35 PM

8. So putin is against old ppl. and for young ppl.?

 

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Response to juxtaposed (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:42 PM

16. Putin is for turning Americans against each other, creating divisions

within US. Old vs young is just one of many such divisions.

House divided against itself less likely to stand.

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Response to delisen (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:46 PM

20. One can make divisions on ones own, just a thought.

 

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Response to juxtaposed (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:50 PM

47. One can.

In fact, the entire "divide and conquer" doesn't really work unless there are already divisions. Disinformation requires that there be a measure of truth in the lies to season them; spreading division requires that the seeds of division already be present in germ form, in not sprouted.

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Response to delisen (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 10:52 PM

68. So because Putin wants disagreements, we shouldn't disagree?

Just agree with you or we are helping Putin. Oh, okay.

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Response to HopeAgain (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:04 AM

74. You said that, I didn't.nt

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Response to delisen (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 01:21 AM

73. Best way is to turn every uttered nuance into a major issue

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:08 PM

4. Depends

On the lens it is viewed thru.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:09 PM

5. Or is it just Children of the Corn creepy?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:27 PM

6. how about less qualified make way for more qualified, based on actually results? nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:34 PM

7. Is someone currently arguing that? Pelosi has said she's done in 4 years.

 

Sounds like some of the older elected officials are getting tired of the BS.

Frankly, I'd like to try term limits for a change. We need to get the life-time members like McConnell out of there. The founding fathers never intended for the Congress to be a full-time, life-time job.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:36 PM

9. We already have term limits.

 

They’re called elections.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:37 PM

10. Right, that's worked so well. /nt

 

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Response to bitterross (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:39 PM

12. It's worked perfectly.

 

Politicians have lasted exactly and precisely as many terms as the voters have desired; no more and no fewer.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:46 PM

19. Yup

 

If you can't be trusted to vote people out, what would make you think you can be trusted with voting for right people to replace them?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:52 PM

23. I genuinely get a little pissed off

 

when people imply that voters are being unwise or are being manipulated when we return a person to office many times. Experience, seniority, and institutional knowledge count for a lot, and if someone is doing a good job they shouldn’t be arbitrarily bounced based on calendar passage.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:58 PM

26. Agree - it's not only lazy

 

("I can't be bothered to do what I need to do to make good choices, so just take the choice away from everybody", it also echoes the right wing "all government is evil and everyone in government is stupid, corrupt, and worthless."

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:40 PM

14. Codeine's dead on - elections are the best term limits

 

The kind of term limits you're talking about not only take out all of the experience, wisdomvand institutional memory, they would also give us more Ted Cruzes and fewerTed Kennedys - and Bernie Sanders would be a long distant memory ...

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:41 PM

15. term limits are a 2 way street we would lose some great representatives.

 

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:52 AM

76. We tried term-limits. They lasted just long enough to knock out a very good Democrat,

Tom Foley, from his position as Speaker of the House, to be replaced by Newt Gingrich.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:13 AM

100. IMO term limits are undemocratic

There is also evidence that they increase rather than reduce corruption. As much as I'd like some really awful people forced out of office, we'd also lose some really great people.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:43 PM

112. If that were the case, they could have put in term limits

they put none in.

They had to be begged to serve, as it was a hardship to them. In modern days, it has too many perks and is not as much of a duty as if was for them.

Still, the House is elected every two years - that's enough and no term limits needed.

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Response to treestar (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 04:01 PM

113. Thank you!

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:37 PM

11. It's identity politics and naive. NT

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:39 PM

13. Did someone do that?

 

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Response to melman (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:52 PM

24. OP is correct but also a stab at AOC. nt

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:56 PM

25. 'a stab at AOC'

 

Yes it is. Based on something that AOC did not say.

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Response to melman (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:03 PM

28. I'm starting to think you have a crush on me

 

I'm flattered, but be careful. I'm spoken for on DU and my Boo can get really jealous ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:30 PM

37. Okay

 

That's kind of a strange thing to think but you do you.

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Response to melman (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:26 PM

36. It's not aoc

But it's someone close enough that I don't blame your confusion.

She should have attributed the quote.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:01 PM

27. It's not a "stab at AOC"

 

But I'm not surprised that some of her more sensitive fans might see it that way.

Here's a clue - everything isn't about her ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:38 PM

41. I connected the OP with a recent post regards a statement attributed to AOC.

Personally I tend not to agree that older legislators should bow out for the young in that older legislators have wisdom, experience, understanding, connections, and all that.

AOC gets way too much criticism IMHO at DU. But I admire her aggressiveness and tend to agree with much she has to say.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:43 PM

43. If you think my OP referred to some random post about AOC, you haven't been paying attention to the

 

board.

I've never read any quote attributed to her suggesting that older people step out of the way to make room for younger people. I have, however, seen numerous posts right here on DU saying exactly that. Hence my question, given how vociferously some folk push back on any suggestion that we consider race or gender as a factor when selecting candidates as the forbidden "identity politics."

As I said, everything is not about AOC. My OP certainly isn't.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:09 PM

56. My mistake. Sorry. nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:40 PM

42. DUers didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

Of course it's a swipe at AOC and her recent tweets about the ~60 year age gap.

Nice projection with the "sensitive fans" bit. Well done!

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:44 PM

44. You may want to work on the AOC obsession of yours

 

My OP has nothing to do with her. Lots of things have nothing to do with her. Although that doesn't seem to be the view of some people who apparently now believe that any political discussion must be all about her.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:46 PM

45. LOL More projection. (n/t)

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #45)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:12 PM

57. LOL! Folks jump in a thread about identity politics that doesn't mention or refer to AOC,

 

try to hijack it with all manner of AOC references and accusations, and then complain about "projection."

Here's a clue, dear. The topic of "identity politics" predated AOC's emergence on to the national stage and it's perfectly possible for people to discuss the concept without it being about her - at least it was before some of her supporters decided that every topic MUST be about her and decided to inject her into as many threads as possible ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 08:53 AM

84. It's a classic spin-off thread.

Along with a couple of other OPs re: AOC's tweet(s). I understand how the game is played, "dear," just be honest.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:45 AM

91. If by classic spin-off" you mean

 

reading the comments in several recent threads got me to thinking about an interesting contradiction I frequently see on DU regarding race, gender, and "identity politics" on one hand and age" on the other, so I decided to start a thread to explore the topic further ... ok, it's a spin-off. And my OP has provoked some interesting observations and comments, notwithstanding the attempts to hijack the thread and turn it into another thread about you-know-who.

Is that honest enough for you? Or are you going to continue to suggest that I'm a liar who is sneakily trying to undermine a person you imagine to be the focus of threads and comments that have absolutely nothing to do with her?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:05 AM

92. Isn't "you-know-who" your ideal candidate?

Female. POC. Progressive. I was going to say "young," but age appears to be tricky. In the world of identity politics, is one age group more preferable than another? Help me out here...

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:48 AM

98. I think she's great - I like her a lot and thinks she has a huge future

 

Not sure what your point is or what you need help with.

And age is no more "tricky" than color or gender. We are frequently told that we shouldn't consider race and gender because that's "identity politics" but instead focus only on objective qualifications. But if considering race and gender are forbidden "identity politics," shouldn't the consideration of age also fall into that category? Yet folk have no qualms saying older politicians (e.g., Peloso, Biden, Feinstein, Sanders, Clinton...) should make way for younger people/fresh faces/new blood, etc. while people throw a fit the minute anyone suggests we should run a minority or a woman ("Stop with the identity politics! We need to run the most qualified person, period!".

Mind you, I have no problem with considering any of those factors, whether one calls them "identity politics" or not since I think they are all valid things - along with numerous other factors - to look at in a candidate.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 12:15 PM

109. Voting is highly personal so I *try* not to tell others who or what to focus on.

In return, I don't like being told we need to choose Candidate X based on gender, race, orientation, etc. I couldn't care less how a candidate is wrapped, but I do want "the most qualified person" and won't apologize for that. And qualifications take many forms: education, background, public service, policy positions, ability to counter the morally bankrupt GOP, etc.

I have posted that we need "fresh blood" but not in reference to age. It's a reference to Americans not voting for candidates who have run before and lost. That rules out Al, Hillary, Joe and Bernie, who do happen to be older. I'm guessing even ol' Jeb knows not to run again.

I want people from all walks of life to run for office and to be given a fair shot at winning. Diversity is good. And there's nothing wrong with elder politicians mentoring the younger. Some may be couching it as "make way" (or others may be perceiving it that way), but I don't. They shouldn't be forced to pass the torch based on age, but if they're not getting the job done, then good riddance. (That's not a swipe at any one candidate...)

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 01:04 AM

72. Lands like water off a duck's back

 

for AOC.

You know, like this:

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Response to melman (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 10:15 PM

66. The sentiment occurs often on DU

every time someone ventures to support Biden for example. The debates about Pelosi. You often see the sentiment that older should step aside and let younger take the reins.

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Response to treestar (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 08:51 AM

82. Nah, it's not Biden's age.

It's the treatment of Anita Hill. Coziness with the financial services industry. "Creepy Joe" that the right-wing will use to bury him. Running before and not winning.

I'd vote for him, but is he our best candidate?

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:21 AM

89. But many DUers start with his age.

The other poster said no one said old people should step aside for younger and anyone who is older will get that being said. Pelosi was the subject of that when AOC wanted someone other than her for Speaker.

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Response to treestar (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:29 AM

90. That's why I'm not on board with identity politics.

I want the best candidate regardless of age, gender, race, orientation, etc.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:42 PM

17. As my tenured professors would say when asked why they don't retire at retirement age.

.

They are asked why they don't retire to open up slots for younger professors, their collective responses were golden, and I will paraphrase it in a few sentences.

"As senior faculty, I have the courses already planned, the materials formatted, all I have to do is show up to class and run through the material and call on students. All of the hard work is done, so it affords me income and gives me something to do."

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:45 PM

18. I guess younger professors will do same when they age?

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:49 PM

21. Darn, that sounds almost like a lot of politicians. The ones who can't bother to read

what they are voting on because they know how to collect money and vote yes or no, often depending on the money

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 07:50 PM

22. And, therefore, based on this one lackadaisical professor somewhere on Americs

 

we should substantially restrict the right and opportunity for every in the country to choose the people they want to represent them?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:05 PM

29. Let's get real, for 80% of the politicans, the party gatekeepers select the candidate.

.

People have very little say in their elected officials, if they can't get past the party machinery.

Funding and support by the party's congressional or senatorial committees determines if they are successful.

Very few break that mold.



Voters are most often faced with Option A or Option B.


1 in 3 people don't know their own state's governor. The senators are probably less. And only a third can name all three branches of government. Voters often just go into the polling booth and select the current one or vote straight party line.

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:15 PM

31. If you really want to get real, you'd face the fact that the PEOPLE WHO VOT select the candidate

 

Blaming it on "party gatekeepers" and "party machinery" is just an excuse and a copout.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:22 PM

33. Well, the premise that the Democratic Party is a Ground Up Institution changed over the years.

.

The old Poli-Sci school of thought was that the Republican Party was Top Down, meaning that you had to clear the gatekeepers to even be considered as a potential candidate. The Democratic Party was Ground Up, meaning that the people choose their leadership. That changed over the past 20-30 years and the majority of state parties are now acting as gatekeepers, controlling who gets the media attention, who gets the funding, and who gets the ground operations to run a successful campaign. Gee, I shouldn't have just finished my Honor's Poli-Sci Minor a year ago.

While it is a nostalgic view that people choose the candidate in our party, the reality is that the majority of candidates need the blessing of the local party bosses to thrive.

Again, if voters don't know the candidate, they will just vote for the existing elected official to keep status quo.

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:24 PM

34. "If voters don't know the candidate, they will just vote for the existing elected official"

 

That's a problem with the voters, not with the system. And term limits will do nothing to fix that.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:26 PM

35. There are several components to winning an election, each is required for success.

.


Just a few. . .

Name recognition
Party blessing
Funding
Ground operations

The last two are often dictated by party blessing.

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:35 PM

40. You left out the most important component: VOTERS

 

If voters get involved, pay attention, learn the issues, help to identify promising potential candidates (or get in the ring themselves), donate money when they can and their time whether they have money or not, they make the difference in the success or failure of a campaign and/or candidate.

This kind of argument is exactly the type of propaganda the Russians used to suppress the vote in 2016 - and, unfortunately, it seems that many Democrats still believe it. It's a clever strategy. If we can be convinced that we have no power, that THEY - "they" being some faceless, nameless bogeymen sitting in their quiet rooms pulling all the strings - they don't even have to steal votes since there is no need to steal votes that are never cast by people who have completely removed themselves from the process, thereby ceding the field "THEM."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:51 PM

48. Interesting, I now deploying Russian counter propaganda tools to suppress voting?

.

I'm just stating facts as to who often gets to run for office and how they are selected by voters.

That is perhaps one of the reasons why AOC is pissing off a lot of establishment Dems, to control future selections. If she is not marginalized, it might lead to more non-establishment or non-traditional candidates taking office. There are a lot of OPs here doing just that, trying to redirect, restrain, negate and suppress her opinion. All voices should be legitimate in a true Democratic Party construct. The people in her district chose, so she should have a voice and be heard.

Now, most voters are lazy. Fact lazy, involvement lazy, etc. That's why most don't engage until the closing weeks.


Russian propaganda -

I don't like that implied connotation. This thread has now devolved to the point where I no longer wish to participate.

.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:56 PM

50. For a lot of voters, politics is one of the last things on their mind

Other than your typical bread and butter issues (paying bills, putting food on the table, etc), people spend their energy on other things outside of work.

We live in a society where more people could tell you the score of the latest football game or what ex Ariana Grande's latest single is about than who their member of congress is. Until that changes, elections are mostly controlled by local/state parties that pull the strings. Staff salaries are often paid for by the state parties (I've been staff on a dozen campaigns).

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:05 PM

54. How is that going to change if WE don't get involved and change it?

 

It's up to US - people - to get involved at the local level and educate and motivate our friends, family and strangers. THAT'S what politics is - it's more than voting on Election Day. It's hard, sometimes boring, often frustrating grunt work. Too many of us expect THEM to do it and then bitch and moan when they don't see the results they want but haven't lifted a finger to achieve.

Have you ever been to a local or state Democratic headquarters? If you have, you know it's not filled with a bunch of wealthy fat cats so sitting around carving up their territories, picking candidates and handing out jobs. It's filled with a lot of ordinary people volunteering their time, answering phones, entering data, organizing canvassing, chipping in for the pizza lunch. And they never have enough help.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:18 PM

58. I've worked on campaigns for a decade and in 10 states

And I used to be on my county committee and have voted on the 'party line' (and seen candidates drop out upon losing it). I'm quite familiar with what goes on at Democratic HQ since I've spent upwards of 80 hours a week there.

But too many times, I've been at the doors and yelled at because I interrupted a football game. I'm not talking about the people who volunteer their time-- the voters I'm talking about are the ones who yell at a canvasser for knocking during the game (which is obviously more important). Or the voters who select a candidate for a stupid reason (this was me-- I voted for Al Gore only because he had the same birthday as me. It was my first presidential election)

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:24 PM

59. That's great!

 

I've experienced the same thing you have, which is frustrating. But that means finding other ways to get to people (face-to-face, not through social media). That takes creativity, strategy and hard work. And it can't be done only at the party level - it must be done at the street level by volunteers who can go to where people are. It also means identifying and working with community "influencers" who can validate you and whom folks will listen to if they don't want to listen to you.

But we can't keep blaming it on "them" because WE are "them."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #59)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:29 PM

60. I've staffed candidates at many community events (where people are)

From fairs/festivals to college football tailgates to farmers' markets to parades. Often I've got one tab opened to the campaign's Google calendar and another open to google local events (if that is my role within the campaign).

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:37 PM

63. That's awesome

 

But we also have to reach out to people between campaigns, without the candidates. One of the reasons folk feel so unengaged and disconnected is that people only reach out to them when a candidate wants their vote. I'm all about engaging with people on the ground between campaigns when there's more time to hear their concerns and try to find incorporate them into our strategy, platforms and messaging when we're not asking them for anything. I've found that when we reach out to people this way, they're very likely to be on board when election time rolls around - and they're usually open to being surrogates and influencers (excellent ones)!


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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:41 PM

64. It's mystifying..

2016 made me realise several things:

- some don't know that the DNC is not God, it is mainly a fundraising organization.
- States run primaries.
- confusion over the difference between a caucus, an open primary and a closed primary ( many were confused clearly) because the myths persist. ( Kremlin and Republican trolls loved this)

And to really see "selection" in action, a dive into history pre 1965 would be useful for some, where politics really was a backroom, smoke-filled affair with very little transparency.

Now that we do have more transparency, there's an obsession with someone "Rigging" something which is not even played out by political history. There are too many examples of "Outsiders" winning - someone claiming to run to "shake up D.C" - and run as an outsider/maverick is the most predictable thing a politician could do. It's amazing how many Presidents ran on this .....it's become an archetype.

As for the deliberate disengagement, cynicism and anti-government propaganda are so rife , there's the belief that politics doesn't matter. This deep cynicism is there through movies and literature as well, especially works by libertarian-leaning artists. The anti-political schtick is so common people boast "I don't follow politics".

"The worst illiterate is the political illiterate,"

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:49 PM

46. party machinery does exist

And AOC overcame that by beating Joe Crowley. If the Queens machine doesn't like her, she'll have a primary in 2020 to deal with.

In NJ there's a 'party line" on the primary ballot ("X county Democrats/Republicans will appear under the candidate's name). Very rarely does someone win off that line. It gets interesting if a district has multiple counties and they don't agree. The party lines are decided by county committee members at a convention.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:58 PM

52. South Jerseyan--It's difficult to get on a township Democratic ticket without a Norcross blessing.

.

The party bosses in Bergen, Hudson and Essex counties control most of NJ, esp. north of I-195.

.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:32 PM

62. I Wonder If It's More He Lost

rather than she won.

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Response to Me. (Reply #62)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 10:05 PM

65. REading her Wiki now

He hasn't faced a primary challenge since 2004 and didn't take her seriously. He sent a surrogate instead of showing up for a debate. She won by 15 points. He did not call her to concede as he didn't have her number.

Her ground game probably included reaching out to people who don't usually vote in primaries, and the Latino community. AOC was an organizer for Bernie, so she was familiar with how a ground game works.

Also keep in mind that the race was the ONLY one on the ticket at the time as NY has two separate primaries (Federal in June, State in September).

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 11:13 PM

69. That's Pretty Much My Point

He took the district for granted and as you stated didn't show up for the occasion. I suspect next time around may be different for her if she picks up a Dem primary challenger. You can also bet the Cons will move heaven and earth to find a candidate of their own. Another thing to be considered is that only 11% of the district turned out to vote which also could make a difference to races in the future.

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Response to Me. (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 08:41 AM

80. that turnout is actually typical

That was the only race on the ticket. In NY, the state primaries (held in September) got many more headlines (Cuomo being challenged by an actress, the IDC all facing primary challenges).

THe only other federal race on the ticket in NY was a senator I can't name on this forum. She did not face a primary challenger.

Another thing to consider about NY-- their primaries are SUPER closed. YOu have to change your partisan affiliation the year before in order to vote in a primary.

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Response to crazycatlady (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:16 AM

96. Actually, As A Nyer I Am Quite Familiar With How Things Work

and that low turnout was considered an anomaly here

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:16 PM

32. That's a very valid opinion

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:15 PM

30. i believe so.....

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:31 PM

38. Who is arguing that?

If older elected officials are doing their jobs and bringing about positive results, then God bless 'em and keep them in office. If they're not, let the voters speak by electing someone who (hopefully) will.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:34 PM

39. it is

Now, this is not to dent that a lot of old politicos, especially white male ones, are indeed part of the problem, but sadly, young ones can be as right wing as anyone else.

However, a lot of the people who focus on AOC are the same people who ignored issues that we have been denying for years, like the fact we need to actually improve our messaging badly. Let AOC play worse cop to our bad cop, and make the GOP squeal for a deal, rther than trying to assure them that we want to be bipartisan and fair.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:53 PM

49. It's just the age old debate over fresh talent vs experience nt

 

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Response to guruoo (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 08:57 PM

51. Can an older, newly-elected Member be considered "fresh talent" or is age alone the issue?

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 12:34 AM

71. I sense that it's not just age, or age in and of itself.

 

It's complicated.

There's so much disinformation floating around which makes it nearly impossible to pin down anyone's true beliefs, or meanings.

btw, Remember this?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:02 PM

53. I wish people would stop saying "new blood" and "fresh faces."

Maybe I have a touch of dyslexia because it turns into "fresh new bloody faces" and freaks me out.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:07 PM

55. Anytime

you play the divide and conquer game with attributes of people that are immutable, then, probably yes.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 09:30 PM

61. I've Sometimes Thought Of It As Profiling

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2018, 11:16 PM

70. I don't want to go on the cart.



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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:49 AM

75. Perfect question. Thank you, EffieBlack.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 02:54 AM

77. No. And I am 64.

We need to mentor the people who will lead the future, not insist on power for us. I'd live to see the ascent of leaders who have decades ahead.

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Response to dawg day (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 08:47 AM

81. But isn't that still identity politics!

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 04:34 AM

78. It's up to the voters

Different strokes for different folks. Making such things into an ideology is just plain stupid.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 06:35 AM

79. Ageism seems to be the hip discrimination these days

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 08:53 AM

83. Sounds like Ageism to me.

..

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Response to ananda (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:12 AM

95. more like common sense!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:05 AM

85. Diversity includes a full range of applicable ages

I'm reminded of affirmative action debates. No I do not advocate age quotas for members of legislatures. The advantage of having time to gather experience and achieve accomplishments will always favor the somewhat older over youth in running for office. So does the power of incumbency which can help members keep their seats for decades. So our elected bodies will never closely reflect demographics in terms of age, nor should they. But when an imbalance becomes extreme, in a relative sense, that is a valid cause for concern. It is good for our government to "look like America" to a reasonable extent. Age is part of that. If even noting age representation is "Identity Politics", than so be it.

Is supporting a younger person over another older one, because one feels that person brings a valuable perspective, informed by youth, to an office the same as arguing that an older official needs to make way for younger ones?

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:16 AM

87. Great post. Thanks

 

"Is supporting a younger person over another older one, because one feels that person brings a valuable perspective, informed by youth, to an office the same as arguing that an older official needs to make way for younger ones? "

I don't think it's the same. Just as I don't think that factoring in a minority candidate's race as a positive characteristic because one believes the POC brings a valuable perspective, informed by their experience of being a minority and whose presence in the position may make a diverse demographic feel represented is the same as voting for someone "just because they're black." But it IS dismissed in many quarters - including among Democrats and by many here on DU as "identity politics."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:38 AM

97. We are in full agreement. Thanks for starting a good discussion n/t

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:10 AM

86. Identity Politics...ugh. Stupid term. Identity politics is just an insult the right uses against...

...Democrats so they can pretend they don't engage in pandering (which is what "Identity Politics" really is).

I don't think what you're describing is pandering, though. It's more of looking for a seat at the table and to not be discounted because of a lack of age.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 09:19 AM

88. Whatever happened to nuance?

Liberals used to be good at it...(not picking on you, Effie, just noting how fallen our current discourse becomes...)

Older officials WILL make way for the younger; it is the nature of reality. But the younger need to learn from their elders as well, or they will make the same damn mistakes we did. As I move out of middle age, I see myself slowing down. I know my body and my brain don't work as they once did. But I also know more about how the world works than I did when I was younger. Lots of things change, but human nature hasn't. And the only way to govern all is to listen to all--but choose wisely which advice you will follow.

"Identity Politics" is a catch-phrase popular now. But it is just people pursuing their own group's interests, something that has been around forever. It fails when it refuses to look at the bigger picture, when it focuses on "me and mine" and ignores "you and yours" and "them and theirs" when trying to come up with solutions for "all of us". It was created to bring the neglected and downtrodden into the circle of power and for that, it is important. But we need to get back to politics as interaction and compromise, to what works for more of us, rather than what works for "just us".

I've reached an age where I won't vote for many people older than I am anymore--they need to teach the young and then step aside. Be mentors and sages; sit under their own fig trees. (Note: I didn't say I wouldn't vote for anyone older than me; there are always exceptions to any rule. And I want RBG to stay on as long as she can manage!)

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:06 AM

93. Yes. nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:12 AM

94. If it is SO BE IT!!!!

If wanting some one younger than 70 for the toughest elected in the land especially after a disastrous four years and what is likely going to be a major job of recovering a little of our place in the world and the economy is, whatever, "Identity Politics" is is then so be it.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 10:52 AM

99. Perfect answer. Thank you.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:36 AM

104. Thanks

 

Do you feel the same way about trying to elect more women and minorities or do you think that kind of identity politics is bad?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:20 AM

101. It is a way of attacking effective leadership by appealing to idealism. Much like Bernie does.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:32 AM

102. I have 30 years + on AOC

And, no I don't see it as identity politics or ageism.

I think it's an accurate reflection of the way things are. Sure, there's something to be said for people like Nancy Pelosi, who uses her powers for good (Luke Skywalker). In contrast, there are people like McTurtle, who has the same sort of experience but uses his powers for evil (Darth Vader). The key is knowing which is which.

I would argue the old Dems are better than old (and young and whatever) republicans, but even with old Dems there is a sense that their time has come and gone. Look, it's inevitable that change will come. These old and older pols are going to want to retire. Some will die in office. And, in the meantime, they have tremendous value and power, if they choose to exercise that power. Become aggressive mentors to people like Davids, and Omar, and AOC. Learn these young 'uns how the sydtem works and how to work that system. I do see one big problem as the years roll on. Millennials don't have patience for bullshit. What's the problem? What's the solution? Make it happen. But until we come up with a new form of government that allows that to happen, they need to learn how to make it happen with the structures we have in place.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:34 AM

103. Are younger people making efforts

To gain political experience? Are they running for city Council seats, other local positions, etc.? I know that is what Kyrsten Sinema did.
Do they have political experience due to a job which required political savvy?

You don't walk straight into a regional VP position. You've got to have some management experience. The more you understand how the game is played the better your performance.

At the federal level I would rather not vote for someone who does not have any political experience. That applies to young and older candidates.

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Response to drmeow (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 12:13 PM

108. We also need to differentiate between "age" and "longevity"

 

Are people questioning the age of an official or how long they've been in office?

Some older Members of Congress have been there less time than some of their younger colleagues. For example, Frederica Wilson, the Florida representative who nailed Trump's and Kelly's butts to the wall last year is 76 years old but has only been in Congress for 8 years. Compare that to Robert Aderholt from Alabama whose only 53 but has been in office for 21 years.

This is a particular issue for women and minorities who didn't have the opportunities that white men had to run for office and, thus, tended to get into politics later in life. For example, Nancy Pelosi has been in office for 31 years but didn't get elected until she was in her late 40s. If she had started when she was 30, like many of the men in office, and had a similar career trajectory, she would have become Speaker at approximately 50 instead of in her mid-60s.

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Response to drmeow (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 04:10 PM

114. check out the group Run for Something

They were formed in the wake of 2016 to encourage young people to run for local and state offices. I get emails from them all the time about one of their candidates who was elected to offices like school board or city council.

Their goal is to build a young, progressive bench.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:41 AM

105. [post removed]

Yes, and anyone who makes that argument is “kinda dumb.”



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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #105)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 12:00 PM

107. Well then

 

It's a good thing nobody did that.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 11:49 AM

106. Is insisting that we should only be looking at

the "experienced" candidates, which are almost to a person over 70 already and many are north of 75, or will be by 2020, is THAT "identity politics?"

If not, why not?

I'm 70 myself. If some of the older politicians don't start opening the way for younger ones, there will simply be no one around to hope to step in when they start dying of old age.

And while I agree with the observation that Paul Ryan was a young politician who wasn't good (from a Democratic perspective), he's simply one of the many younger politicians Republicans have been moving into positions of power for a couple of decades now. We could learn something from that.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 24, 2018, 12:16 PM

110. It's pretty difficult to argue that looking at a candidate's experience is "identity politics"

 

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