Hunting, just a bad idea to go after this as if it were evil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Look folks, I understand, many of our URBAN residents do not get it... I understand. But claiming that hunting is somehow a defect of Republicans is a sure way to lose you an election in rural areas where people HUNT AND FISH, period.

Here you go, two well known "Republicans," Senators Shumer and Nelson



Here is another well known "Republican," one Senator Kerry



There are other well known "Republicans," such as Bob Kerry who hunts as well.

Now here is another well known "Republican" fishing. You might even recognize him and his wife.



Oh my bad. All these people are (or were) well known DEMOCRATS. This is why this is stupid. Neither party owns hunting or fishing... if you do not get it why people do either, sure I understand. But ascribing evil to this is just plain out asking to continue to lose votes in rural America where both hunting and fishing are part of the culture. Oh and unless you are a vegan, sorry folks, but somebody else killed your steak. And you surely do not want to look into how your chicken, eggs and milk are produced either.

Yes, Paul Ryan hunts... so? He lives in an area of the country where hunting is a popular activity and part of the wild white tail population management. And your point? I got a problem with how Chenney did it, his is not hunting... but that is another ball of wax. But seeing that either of these two is evil because they hunt is silly. There are more than enough reasons to call them ON POLICY, without going after them for practicing something humans have done since oh since Homo Sapiens walked the planet. That is just plain stupid.

[FSogol]

1. Gotta agree. Half of the hunters and fishermen are Democrats.

The Repubs just pretend they have a monopoly of their votes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I am not sure of the percentages

I am sure it varies from state to state, and even county to county... but the faux outrage over this is just plain silly and helps the GOP cement the gains they have made among Rural populations.

[MotherPetrie]

8. Seriously? Are you on the NRA payroll now?

[PavePusher]

35. Seriously? Are you an idiot? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. No, but you are telling me only republicans hunt?

Not in my back country. Not at all.

[Codeine]

107. I can't stand the OP, but that is a completely idiotic comment.

You should be embarrassed.

[emilyg]

116. dumdumdumb

[Aerows]

163. Do you honestly think

that the only people who hunt and fish are Republicans? Uh, stick around. You may just learn a few things about Democrats and liberals.

[zappaman]

255. Are you joking?

Nadin may be a lot of things...ex-firefighter, former cop, participant of multiple shootouts, trained historian, ex-almost champion fencer, EMT, ace reporter, expert on too many things to list(including climactic change), and chronicler of arcs, trends, and patterns.

But she is DEFINITELY NOT on the NRA payroll and to even assert that is ridiculous.

[Yo_Mama]

270. Oh, that was wholly uncalled for

Everyone who's hung at DU knows this poster, and knows this poster doesn't shill for the NRA.

Rural people mostly hunt and fish for two reasons. The first is to eat, and the second is to defend crops and livestock. Take GA, where we have feral hogs. They are a foreign species that can do great crop damage.

I know in the NE that most farmers have special licenses to hunt deer that come in the fields to eat the crops.

It's understandable to be offended at pure "sport" fishing and hunting (although in some parts of the country, this is a way that locals earn their living), but why take out after people who are just trying to survive? Is that a Democratic value?

[former-republican]

10. Stay away from gun control

It's a losing issue .
You want more people to vote Democrat?

I can guarantee more republicans would switch sides if democrats would stop talking about evil rifles, assault weapons bans.

I know there are also republicans that support gun control but in the eyes of the public ,, the democrats own this issue with the voting public.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. That is one we will have to agree to disagree

What has happened to gun control is the capture of the term by framing, the NRA has been very successful.

IT used to mean keeping it away from people who should not, under any circumstances, have access to weapons. Thanks to the NRA it's become take way my guns.

I am sure you and I can agree that somebody with a criminal record should not have a gun. The same goes for somebody with a serious mental issue, who is taking psychotic drugs.

We also know, thanks ironically to Frank Luntz, that even the majority of NRA members agree on 100% background checks. Do not worry, this won't happen, not as long as the NRA owns Congress (and in this I mean members of both parties)

[former-republican]

61. I'm sorry but I disagree

A criminal record can be possession of marijuana years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. And it can be possession, with intent to sell, of cocaine or crack, or blue ice

with murder one to boot.

States are known to restore rights by the way, in a few cases. So that can be looked at. But sorry, we will have to disagree, and loudly.

[former-republican]

82. I see we will not reach an agreement on this issue

If a person has been convicted of murder one to boot then he shouldn't be walking among society.

If our justices system deems a man eligible after a crime to join us in living and working in our society. Then all his rights should be restored.


I can see this is not a popular opinion with many here but it's what I believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. But we can disagree

without being disagreeable

[former-republican]

103. yes we can

[Mojorabbit]

117. I agree with you. nt

[former-republican]

176. A little surprised why more members don't

[piratefish08]

211. in rural areas politics does NOT factor into folks getting to eat.

and at least half of my neighbors are Dems who hunt to eat.

[Warpy]

59. The locals who hunt (if they can get licenses away from trophy hunters

from out of state) do so because they need that elk or deer in the freezer to provide a lot of their protein. This is a poor state.

Most of them are Democrats, too. Republicans never did a damned thing for any of the poor folks in this state.

[Liberty Belle]

111. Yes, in our area there are high poverty rates in the rural areas.

People in both parties hunt deer, wild turkeys etc. and go fishing too for food. I have no problem with that as long as the animals are plentiful. I do disapprove of sport hunting/trophy hunting, killing animals for no valid reason.

Any candidate who sounds like they would ban guns used for hunting or self defense cannot win broad support, bottom line.

Yes, I do support some limits on crazy people owning guns and frankly I don't see why automatic weapons or even semi-automatic weapons are needed. You can hunt with a rife, you don't need an assault rifle.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

174. No one hunts with an automatic weapon. Why would you think that someone would hunt with a

machine gun.

Do you really believe that all semi-automatic firearms should be banned from being used for hunting purposes?

What about those hunters who own semi-automatic shotguns? I prefer an 870 pump, but some people spend their money for shotguns which are semi-automatic in nature. How does that make a difference to you in your world?

[Scuba]

215. It makes a huge difference in that my 870 never jams like an autoloader....

.... well, unless I "short-arm" it, that is.

[PavePusher]

237. If you have a semi-auto that jams with any regularity...

it is broken and needs to go to a gunsmith for repair, or back to the manufacturer for warantee work.

[Scuba]

253. Not a problem for me. I'm told 1100's jam often...

... and the M16 I carried in 1972-1973 would jam if not meticulously clean.

My 1911 has never jammed.

[belcffub]

254. I have a couple of 1100's

that I inherited... they are the older models... never jam... but they are heavy enough that I do not feel like hunting with them...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

263. If you have had the experience of doing so once, why would you want to "short-arm" it again?

Incidentally, even semi-automatic shotguns can be jammed by inexperienced shooters if they fail to keep them tight in their shoulders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limp_wristing

[Scuba]

271. Among my circle of shooting friends, "short-arming it" refers to...

... not pulling the pump all the way back before starting the forward motion. This most likely results in a spent shell being half-ejected and getting caught when the bolt comes forward.

I've never done it on purpose.

[Aerows]

156. I've known people

that depended on venison to have meat, and they weren't Republicans. Hunting is a universal pursuit, and is often done out of necessity like fishing.

[Curtland1015]

3. I agree that I don't think it's "evil". But we aren't everyone.

There a many people who are very much against it and DO think it's wrong. They think hurting any living thing is wrong.

I respect that opinion.

But I do get what you're saying. This opinion could rub people the wrong way. Still, they're entitled to have it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. THey are entitled to have it

but unless they are vegan... and I mean 100% vegan...









The last one is the contaminated water around a pig farm.

[GaYellowDawg]

20. That last photo is interesting...

If that purple isn't just an artifact, then there may be a very nasty anaerobic bacteria population in that water.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. No, it is not an artifact

It is real, and the pollution of water systems is a real problem in places like Georgia.

[GaYellowDawg]

49. You are VERY right.

When I lived in Clarke County, I was shocked at the coliform bacterial counts in the Oconee River. It was first described by naturalists as a clear river with a stony bottom. Now it's basically a giant colon.

[Curtland1015]

24. Then what? That seems REALLY sanctimonious here.

Ate cheese once ten years ago?

THEN YOU CAN NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT PEOPLE HUNTING!

That seems a bit too extreme to me. Can there be no middle ground?

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. What I am telling you is that we get food from ANIMAL sources

we do not treat our domestic animals very well. Industrial agriculture has given you very cheap chicken... (fun fact it used to be more expensive than steak), but we in the city can eat guilt free, since most of us really do not care how it is produced.

Deer hunting, a favorite part of life in rural america in the fall... is also about controlling a population that otherwise would be completely out of control. Part of it is, in many areas, we are the apex species. We have removed their natural hunters. This did not happen... ah crops would be a fun snack in an out of control population.

Circle of life, and balance, it exists.

[zeemike]

122. those are photos of the real evil.

Not that we kill and eat animals but how we treat them and the conditions we force them to live in...not to mention a very unhealthy food product by the time they pump them full of antibiotics and growth hormones.

Killing and animal and eating it may be an evil thing to some people, but a wild animal has had a life and even though it may have been short it had some quality to it...
Myself I don't think it is evil at all...and some of our race would not exist without it....there would be no Inuit or countless other people....it is the respect you show to life that counts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. We no longer do prayers to thank the animal spirit for giving up it's life

traditional hunters still do.

There is a connection to the world we have lost. But that is a whole different matter.

[zeemike]

144. Yes it is a whole different matter.

But it is connected because if you don't understand what is good then you can be fooled by evil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. I know, and here is a fun fact

many of our traditions have rites to thank whoever, for the animal. In Jewish tradition, the Shohet, the person responsible for killing the animal in a humane way, prays before the deed.

Now go ask many Jews about this. I am as secular as they come. But it struck me as an interesting factoid, since that prayer goes all the way back to the bronze age, one of the few... which tells you the level of connection people back then had to the land.

We no longer do.

As I said, I am as secular as they come... I might not pray (which a lot of people do) to thank whoever for their daily food, bread, what have you. But I know just how connected we are to the land. And when I die, I know I should be recycled into the web of life. So will you, so will all of us.

And that, which is scientific, is magical in a way. My atoms will become some other's creature's atoms, and calories.

[zeemike]

160. I am mostly familiar with the native American traditions.

But the thing they share with other traditions is the respect for life itself...and they did not consider their prey inferior to them but just different...but all part of the great spirit...even the rocks had spirit and were respected that way.
And they saw the world as one spirit interconnected....the web of life.
And all are consumed back into that web of life...some sooner some later
But that reminded me of what I heard about some buddhist monks...when one of them dies they cut up the body and lay it out on the rocks...soon the buzzards arrive and strip the flesh from the bones...then they go gather the bones and put them in a tomb...
I always thought that was such a clever way to go...why not turn the flesh into nature right away. It doesn't turn me off at all to think that a buzzard will eat my dead flesh. they are much nicer than worms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Many ancient traditions have that aspect of connection to life

I mentioned the Jewish one, because that is the source for a lot of things in the west. My view, and at the risk of having some folks get really annoyed, what has hurt Western Traditions is not just Empire, but losing all contact with the natural world.

It was there, at one point. But we have become such sterile, sheltered and isolated from the natural world, that we prefer fantasies over reality, and cannot accept the damage we are doing to the web of life.

As I said, I am as secular as they come. But they had a program on the Science Channel that might have grossed a few people, to me it was fascinating. They set a "house" in a museum in New Zealand I think, where they let things rot, from bread, to chicken to a pig. They also marked a lot of this with radioactive elements. To save the grossness, at the end they had some plants they grew from seed in the same place. Well, here is the magic comes... they had almost every cell in the marigold plant show the radioactive elements. There you had it, recycling of all elements. Death led to life, and flowers.

And yes, pigs indeed fly, in the form of flies.



I would not liked to be the scientist going in and out every day... (oh the smell), but from the safety of my house, on the other side of the TV, it was almost spiritual. We got to see that web of life at work.

[zeemike]

179. Interesting story...and it does seem like magic.

but then an engineer would say it is just good engineering...and a physicist would say it is just the conservation of energy.
I say it is the only thing that does make sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. The magic in that program is that regardless of the interpretation

you got to see it... the connection was clear as can be, and undeniable.

For somebody who is very spiritual you will take something from it. For people like me... yup conservation of energy, and creation of life by consuming the energy and processing the stored energy by all these efficient creatures that process the death.

But it was there, clear as day. (After four months). If you can catch it, is worth watching. And for some reason I cannot find it... anywhere. Since they had one on Through the Womhole, those are the hits I am getting.

[jarred222]

191. The Inuit hunt whales

To me, that's not far from killing gorillas. There's a difference between shooting a cow in the head when it doesn't know what's coming and shooting a harpoon into a highly sentient creature and running it down until it bleeds out, screaming and writhing, sometimes for a half hour or longer.

Just because some mythologized "noble savage" culture does something doesn't make it "closer to the land" or less barbaric. Not that I think we are any less empathetically primitive. Western societies know better, and don't care, so I guess we're worse in the former regard.

[zeemike]

222. And men hunt men and have for centuries.

And are capable of inflicting much pain and suffering on large scale...but they seldom do it to eat.
And there is violence in the sea...and men will and do get attacked all the time by sharks and other creatures of the deep. and sometimes the death is slow and painful...and killer whales will and do attack other whales.
and if you want to look at it that way nature itself is full of violence but it is usually for food.
The shark and the killer whale and the lion and wolf are not evil because they kill and can never be evil because there eyes were never opened and they did not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

We are burdened with this knowledge of good and evil but it also opens up an opportunity for us to achieve perfection by willfully rejecting evil itself and live the perfect life...and those that can do it will have a great reward...but those that want to force others to do so by using this knowledge against them and becomes a tool of evil itself.
At least that is how I see it.

[Marrah_G]

246. So gross

I've recently stopped eating mammals for health reasons, but before that I switched to free range organic meat. Twice the price so we ate half the portion sizes and increased the vegetable portion sizes. I still try to buy only organic butter, milk and cream- cheese when I can afford it. I stopped drinking milk and just use it for cooking so I can afford to buy the good stuff.

There are alot of really good documentaries out there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. We try to do the same for health reasons

and yes organic grass fed is expensive. As is Americans eat too much meat, we try to strive for recommended portions by AHA recommendations, and people look at us odd. If for whatever reason we go out for a steak dinner with family, been a while, we order the smallest in the menu. People look at us odd. Since it is the land of fruits and nuts, the local steak house actually does have a more reasonable portion... it is not 4 oz, but six is better than 12.

[Fumesucker]

4. I notice another characteristic all those people share..

They are all white..

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You are noticing something that is relevant

but has little to do with hunting and all to do with the oligarchy and who is what? Fun fact, this is the first time in US History where one major party is NOT running a Protestant for either the presidency (MItt is a Mormon) or the VEEP spot, (Ryan is Catholic).

Don't worry, minorities do hunt too.

[Fumesucker]

15. Minorities running around in the woods with guns?

Oh my!



Of course some minorities hunt but it's largely seen as a white thing.

If your honeymoon plans included anything to do with a deer camp, you just might be a redneck.. -J Foxworthy

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. No, not really

Last edited Mon Aug 20, 2012, 01:11 PM - Edit history (1)

my local indians at insert reservation here, still hunt.

But I am sure you did not know this.



Removing the one from Sta Ysabel, Tough it came out in a general search of images on the google, a person bellow claims it is theirs. So it is poof, gone... but not gone from google images.

The people I showed happened to be members of our present ruling elite... so they were self selected white.

I am sad that you do not realize this, but yup, at least in my county a good number of our hunters do so in BLM lands, and tribal reservations. Down side to this... no licence... to the state... yes to the tribe.

Favorite game, wild turkey and deer.

[zappaman]

29. "But I am sure you did not know this."

As condescending as always.

[Fumesucker]

31. You can turn down the condescension a notch or two Nadine, I actually do know that..

[zappaman]

33. Don't hold your breath.

A zebra can't change it's stripes.
Bet you did not know that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Well, what can I say?

You said all these people were white. They were. So went and showed you a very local county. If that is concescending, guilty as charged.

You made a valid point, our pols are white, in those photos. It has nothing to do with hunting perse (at the moment, it did in the past) and all to do with the ruling elites and who they are.

[Fumesucker]

37. I included this sentence in the post you were replying to..

Of course some minorities hunt but it's largely seen as a white thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Whatever, I am not looking for a fight

have an excellent day.

[belcffub]

219. that bottom picture was not from a reservation !!!!!

Last edited Mon Aug 20, 2012, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

That is my deer on top of my Yamaha Grizzly with my Weatherby 300 with a Leopold scope on it... That is from a youtube video I posted last fall... I have an off-grid cabin and do videos on projects I do among other things...

I had one Native American in my family blood line but that was well over 150 years ago... I do not consider myself Indian.

where did you get that pic??? I did not give permission for it's use anywhere... I looked up Sta Ysabel and saw that it was in California... I assure you that this was a New York Deer...

[belcffub]

221. OK... so I figured out that the image was from the preview of my video

where was it posted that someone claimed it was taken in on an Indian Reservation??

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. Do a google search for IMAGES

It will appear, sorry.

And Sta Ysabel IS a reservation here in my back country, and it has wild deer running around and people hunt those deer.

I will remove it, but it is a simple search away.

[belcffub]

244. what are the odds...

of someone randomly picking an image in google image search and the owner seeing it on a forum post... I am going to by a lottery ticket now..

it's really not a problem... no harm no foul... I just did not want my pics being mis-represented.... It was really weird scrolling down and seeing it...

I searched for Sta Ysabel deer, hunting and a couple of other things and the only pic that shows up is the one in this thread... what did you search for... I'd like to figure out how it showed up...

thanks

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. Sta Ysabel and hunting and deer, I think that was the boolean search.

[belcffub]

247. thanks... looking now

here is the video it came off of... I could have taken three deer easy last year but this is the only one I harvested... I tend to only take one... which is why I do not normally get a deer opening day... like to wait until week two or three so I have a good reason to keep going out each weekend...

my channel has videos on my off-grid cabin... mostly building buildings... doing a guest cabin right now...

[nadinbrzezinski]

248. I was specifically looking for images

not for video. I can tell you though, a lot of our local news stations extract photos from video for the web. Hardly a difficult thing to do anymore.

And that is a whole different discussion.

[eallen]

89. "White thing"? Not here in Texas.

Of course, we're a majority minority state.

[Paladin]

220. It's A "White Thing" In Texas. Trust Me.

Hang out in places like Mason or Uvalde on opening day of deer season if you don't believe me.....

[eallen]

277. Strange, then, how many Hispanic hunter I know.

Neither of us have stats.

It would be interesting to look at the hunter license database. I doubt the state would allow that.

[jwirr]

16. We are Native American and it is part of a long standing culture for us. This is not a whites only

thing.

[Fumesucker]

26. I know that..

I'm a bit biased because some of the biggest right wing redneck assholes I know are hunters and it's quite clear from listening to them that they get a major thrill from killing.

Some of them are even in my extended family, sadly..

I have no problem with people who hunt for food but that's not what drives a lot of the hunters I know, they're out for that fourteen point buck..

[jwirr]

50. Thank you. Sorry I seemed to have jumped all over you.

[Fumesucker]

56. I didn't take it that way..

I'm really speaking more to the perception that many people have.

Since we are in an area that's rapidly developing and happen to be on one of the largest patches of woodlands left we have quite a few deer and a problem with hunters coming onto the property without permission. I hate being startled by a deer rifle going off nearby when I had no idea anyone was hunting here in the first place. We do have a couple of people who hunt with permission but a lot more that just think it's ok to hunt anywhere they please.

Because we're surrounded by subdivisions I worry about stray bullets, someone who is hunting without permission probably isn't going to be all that careful about where their weapon is aimed and what's behind it. It isn't obvious at all that a lot homes are so close here and I could see a tragedy happening easily if someone is careless. I didn't even realize the extent of development around us until I started looking at satellite pictures..

[madrchsod]

67. where i live we have over a thousand acres of parkland

the deer herds can only be thinned by bow and arrow.

[MicaelS]

81. Many of the Native People in Alaska

Still rely on subsistence hunting. And they're not white.

[MotherPetrie]

5. Look at them gloating over the lives they took - FUCKERS! I don't care what party they are.

They make me sick.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Did you eat a steak recently?

How about eggs, milk? should I gloat? Unless you are 100% vegan, none of us has a place to stand there.

[Archae]

27. You killed all those poor plants! MURDERER!

I am a hunter and I love fishing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I killed that apple I know,

[part man all 86]

53. Eat veggies?

How about the runoff of fertilizers and herbicides and pesticides into ponds, lakes and rivers, Causes dead zones from nitrates and such. And that pond that looks evil above can look similar on sugar cane farms. Not to mention it may say waters soluble but washing it for eating does not take all the residue off unless you use a vegetable wash. Eat at your own risk. We can play this game all day. Both animal and crop farms pollute. Now to hunting, go for it because the deer population is overcrowded at least in Tennessee and Virginia. Save the bones, antlers and skulls and sell to a craftsman like me. Turkey feathers as well. The tail feathers dry them together to make an awesome dance fan. Happy hunting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Yeah and... I am aware of the problems

with INDUSTRIAL AGRICULTURE. Why I pay through the nose for organic, which is somewhat better.

[jeff47]

230. Actually, vegan doesn't cut it either.

Killing plants for food is still killing. Even organically, locally and sustainably grown plants.

And plants feel pain. No central nervous system means it's not the same as animals, but there's a massive reaction when a plant is torn apart for humans to eat.

Fruit? Well, the plant drops that so it doesn't hurt the plant. But you are aborting the plant's children.

Fact his, we aren't autotrophs. Something has to die for us to live.

[Brickbat]

48. You're adorable.

[Codeine]

108. One hopes you are a vegan,

or you're really just going to look silly for making that comment.

And I have more respect for a person who at least acknowledges that eating meat involves killing and slaughtering a living being, and who does not feel the need to divorce themselves from the dirty details.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. I agree. I've a few rules when it comes to hunting.

These are my personal limits.

I don't want to witness it.

I don't condone "canned hunts" and I will berate those who indulge in the practice.

The hunter should be hunting for food, not just "trophy" hunting.

Other than those areas, I accept many people, Democrats included, hunt.

I grew up fishing. We let go the little guys and ate the others. Who am I to be overly judgmental?

[Brickbat]

7. In Minnesota, the money that buys hunting and fishing licenses goes to to Game and Fish Fund,

which in turns pays for wildlife and environmental management, fish management, trails and waterways, and enforcement of regulations. It benefits everyone, not just hunters and fishers.

[jwirr]

11. I agree. My family hunt and fish to supplement our food sources. One of the things that we often

get mad about here on DU is the way the rw tries to tell us how to live. That is how many of us who are hunters/fishers and meat eaters feel when this happens to us.

[treestar]

13. I agree

A lot of people hunt and fish. They often know a lot about the environment because of it, and care about it. It's not a simple issue that separates the liberals from the conservatives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. What it separates is urban dwellers from rural dwellers

This is an observation. But since most urban dwellers get their food this way...



For the most part they have no clue how that steak got to them... and frankly, they don't want to know either. Same goes for milk, eggs and cheese... as well as vegies.

I find food markets to be valuable this way... people at times can talk to the people raising their food.

[RegieRocker]

57. They require someone else to do the killing for them.

It's quite simple really. It explains a lot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Yup

and cuddly little roosters are truly mean!

But you know what I mean.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. Exactly this. n/t

[former-republican]

17. Hunters have spent more money

preserving wild life and the environment than anti hunters.

That's a fact

[GaYellowDawg]

19. Hunting deer is an absolute necessity

Their population is out of control. Their numbers are going to get pared back by disease, starvation, or hunting, and I think that hunting is the most humane. I don't hunt. But if someone I know goes deer hunting, I say more power to them.

[Major Nikon]

167. Apparently some would rather the animals die of starvation and disease

I don't hunt either (at least in the last 30 years or so), but I can see the need for intelligent wildlife management.

[RebelOne]

21. In my opinion, hunting is evil.

I do not believe in killing animals for sport.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Most hunters hunt to put food on the table

locally, we have many who live well under the poverty line. That wild turkey is dinner. That buck, is dinner for a few days.

I am sure though that you are well familiar how your steak was raised... how about eggs, milk? Your pork butt? Serious.

[PavePusher]

43. Many people hunt for food. Being skilled and succesful in the endevour....

and taking enjoyment and pride in that, is nothing to be ashamed of.

[GoneOffShore]

45. A lot of people hunt to supplement their diets.

Don't anthropomorphize.

Remember Bambi was a cartoon.

[Codeine]

109. I'm sure the cows and chickens that are crammed into factory torture farms for your dinner

admire your stand against one kind of animal killing.

[a la izquierda]

210. I'm a vegetarian...

and I don't care if people hunt if they eat what they kill (like my dad used to when he was younger).
I know where that dead stuff comes from on a plate, which is why I don't eat it. I would so much rather someone skillfully take down an animal than it be tortured before it dies, surrounded by other suffering, scared animals.

[piratefish08]

212. for food? are you vegan?

i don't believe in sport hunting either.

[KurtNYC]

22. This is just DU and we are a herd of cats.

In the grand scheme of this election it really doesn't matter what is said on this board.

This election is about 12 counties. The rest of the country has made up its mind.

[orpupilofnature57]

23. Assailant NoHeart Cheney was on another

Barrel shoot .I love x-c skiing and without hunters there would be no woods ,starving deer and fewer people who aren't police or criminals with guns. Man Jackie was a doll!

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. What chenney did is not hunting and most hunters would laugh

or do laugh.

[Tom Ripley]

30. I do not get hunting as a "sport", but I wholeheartedly agree with you

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. The problem is that most hunters are NOT doing it for sport either

It is a real minority that does.

[Tom Ripley]

52. I am aware of that. That would be like thinking slaughterhouse workers are doing their job...

for recreation or because it is their passion.
As a carnivore, I have enjoyed the bounty from both hunters and slaughterhouse workers.

[Odin2005]

36. Most city slickers' ideas about Nature are based off "Bambi".

The irony of the "hunters killed Bambi's mom" whining is that the vast majority of deer hunted are bucks, you have to get a special license to hunt a doe and if you hunt a doe without that you are in really deep shit.

[Fumesucker]

46. Eh, I saw two deer crossing the driveway less than a week ago while I was sitting at my computer.

They are being crowded out by development all around us and we are on one of the few remaining patches of woodland in this area, subdivisions all around so they hang around here a lot.

I'm damn sure not interested in adding to their misery although it's pretty funny when my miniature doxies chase deer that are about fifty times bigger than they are.

[progressoid]

95. We have them regularly in our back yard but not because they have been crowded out by development

There really isn't any development in my area to affect them. There has, however, been a deer population explosion in the last few decades (no predators and lots of food for them). Were back to pre-settler populations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Careful there, some of us ARE city slickers

Granted, I did work in a Kibutz for a while... and have had rattler, good eating there.

[Sick of the GOP]

44. Where's the "wildlife management" for predators?

That doesn't involve a trap and some he-man wannabee posing with his "trophy"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. That last photo is not posing?

Okie dokie.

And posing with trophy is so old it is not even funny.



It might be, seriously, in the genes... for some cultures these images were sacred, we believe. But showing up what you got... is old. In fact, VERY OLD... probably older than the species itself.

[sibelian]

196. Interesting point

I'm appreciating your posts on this subject

[philly_bob]

58. I'm an urban liberal. I don't hunt, but I respect the workmanship & design of guns.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I asked my local gun-toting politico to take his gun apart for me. Would he be able to do so?

[DontTreadOnMe]

60. Does anyone know the stats on how many actually hunt for food?

What percents of Americans actually hunt for food?

And the breakdowns? Like how many get 100% of their food from hunting. 25%?

How many hunters get meat.. once a year?

Maybe break out fishing into separate stats. I suspect people catch and eat more fish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. That is an interesting question

since deer is a fall thing, and people get licences for just a certain number of bucks... there is a limit, (even if we do have a population issue)

Fishing is a lot more open. Things like squirrel are considered nuisance.

I suspect, and no I don't have the numbers, but one that might be an interesting article to research... that it truly goes into economic strata and traditions. I suspect native peoples do it a lot more than our fall hunting season regulars, like even Paul Ryan. The Innuit are almost 100% hunter gatherers still, for example and have special permits to hunt things like sea wolves. Others, I suspect a lot less.

But you know what? I might try to find out if and when to do this story in my own back yard. Would be interesting.

Thanks

[longship]

125. Deer hunting is not just a fall thing in my neck of the woods.

I know more than one local who hunts deer and turkeys year round. And they do not do it for sport; they do it to eat. The state has to know about this, but there is no funding for enforcement.

Ethically, I cannot see any harm in this. I have more problems with the sport hunters who want only to get their 9 point buck (or whatever) and descend on our peaceful forests in droves during Thanksgiving weekend and start shooting up the woods. Most of the locals do not hunt on opening weekend for fear of their lives from the city cowboys. Granted, most of the city folk are okay. But some are just plain coo coo.

Hunting is more than a sport here. It is a way of life for many. I wouldn't want it stopped for any reason.

BTW, I don't know a single person who hasn't hit a deer with a car. When I drive to town, there is often a dead deer at the side of the road (all two lanes, many dirt) clobbered by some driver. If I drive around the square mile where I live at dusk, which adjoins the national forest, I will often see over a dozen white tails, often many more, in the fields.

If people didn't hunt them, they would starve. The deer population is huge here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. I know, and I might be an urbanite snob (ha, ha)

but in my snobbery I get this.



By the way, if I want to hunt with my preferred tool (I don't trust myself with a gun), don't do this on opening week either.

A month ago I bagged a few wild turkeys with the camera. They are too used to people though. I almost bagged one for real the other day... damn thing jumped in front of the truck.

[hifiguy]

62. I am a lifelong urbanite and have no problems

with hunting and fishing, I used to fish when I was a kid. And I am as left as you can get.

[gollygee]

64. I know tons of Democrats who hunt and fish. And Republicans as well.

I live in Michigan. Most people do one and or the other here.

[Zoeisright]

66. Sorry, don't like hunters.

Never have, never will.

[darkangel218]

71. I feel the same zoe

If they would hunt "just for food " why would they pose with corpses of the poor animals? Do we take pictures with our sandwiches? For them killings are tropheys. Maybe they should grow some balls and stop going after inocent, beautiful creatures. :'(

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Yup, the posing is as old as the species

It is actually much older than guns... it goes back to spears.

Now you do not have to like them, but we know that hunter gatherers used to use animal skins and heads as totem animals.



This little one is made of animal bone, and comes from Lascaux... which also has some of the most beautiful drawings of the ancient world. Anthropologist believe that these people, whoever they were, engaged in propitious dances to the animals so they could eat.

Posting with whatever you killed goes back a long time... perhaps even before Homo Sapiens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. We do what you want, I hope you do not mind

your crops disappearing from hungry little mouths. Hunting is also about managing a population that is a tad dense.

Of course we could, as I told you already, re-introduce all the predator species we removed from the environment. OH way, poor bambi will die when bad mean wolf eats it.

You must be a city resident. Try to look into industrial agriculture... then tell me that keeping thousands of chickens in battery cages is well, civilized.

[tama]

120. I would not call

industrial torture of animals for food and industrial destruction of top soil for plant food - what us urbanites mostly eat - progressive evolution in any way. Destruction of the carrying capacity of the ecosystem is not adaptive evolution, it's evolutionary dead end, suicide. The civilization you refer to is in terms of evolution and ecology cancer-like behavior.

Most succesfully evolved human culture to my knowledge are the hunter-gatherers living in Kalahari desert. They don't have crime, wars, jobs and bosses, half the population goes through shamanistic initiation, and they have unbroken cultural continuity of several tens thousands of years - they still know the meaning of the rock carvings made millennia ago like they were made yesterday.

In my language we have several words for hunting, from different phases of alienation from nature. Earliest word for hunting from the shamanistic hunter-gatherer times is 'pyytää' which, which means simply to 'ask'. Second oldest is 'metsästää' - 'roam the woods' from the period when we no linger lived as part of the forest but as agricultural societies and Woods had become the Other. Latest is 'jahdata', loanword from Swedish imperialists who conquered our lands and ruled us for centuries. It means 'go after, chase'.

[yawnmaster]

190. oh I have seen many family pictures of food...

that has been taken during a trip.
people DO take pictures of food when it looks good or is at a special spot.
no not all people, but many.
and not all hunters take pics with their prey.

[pipoman]

86. As ignorant as saying, "I don't like volleyball players. Never have, never will"..

that is unless you know every volleyball player on the planet, it's just blind stereotyping...iow, ignorance..

[darkangel218]

68. Why kill more animals

When there is already plenty of them dead , rotting away. Want hormone free food? There is plenty at health food stores already slaughtered. May whatever gods are out there look after the souls of these poor animals. Humans should stick to shooting ranges and video games, rather than killing perfectly happy wild animals :'(

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. What happens when you take the apex species from any system?

We have done that with wolves. So tell you what... we let a few hundred wolves and other hunters back and then I will agree with you, fully.

Right now deer have a little population problem... so they will either die from disease or we can manage the wild herds.

This is actually biology 101. That is one of the reasons for the hunting season.

[darkangel218]

88. No, thats just an excuse, so you can sleep better at night.

You you have no regard for animals lives and souls. I bet if some alien species came down on earth and decided there were too many of us, and started taking us out, you wouldn't call it Biology 101. Try to evolve with the rest of us please.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Since I do not hunt, think whatever

so you are happy to eat chicken? How about Cow? Eggs. Milk, Pork, Goat? Have you looked into how they are raised? Or you will not bother with that? Let me show you some.



You think this is more humane?



I guess this is more... ahem, civilized



I guess this is much better too. I mean it IS civilized.


And yes, it is biology 101, when you do not have an apex species you will have a population explosion... and they will either collapse from disease or starvation, or both. We call this balance.

Look, even the World Wild Life Fund GETS IT

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/teacher_resources/webfieldtrips/ecological_balance/

So yes, my other choice is to reintroduce wolves, and bobcats, and mountain lions.

For the record, my weapon of choice is a NIKON with a 300 mm lens attached to it.

This is my weapon of choice

http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Digital-SLR-Cameras/25478/D5100.html

I would prefer the D7000 but it was a tad out of my price range.

Just because I get it why people hunt... and no, I do not consider it evil, as long as the animal is used up, and calories consumed. As to souls, well, given I do not believe in life after death, except as a way for my calories and all the chemicals trapped in my body to rejoin the environment and become part of the cycle of life... there you have it.

[NutmegYankee]

92. Try hitting one of those deer at 60 MPH.

And I take it you'd be all for culling the herd.

[darkangel218]

96. No i wouldnt.

We built roads in THEIR forest, not the other way around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Well if you hit it at 60 you might die in the process, no I am not kidding

and the Deer is guaranteed to die... so what would you prefer we do... let it rot, or like many places do, use the meat at local homeless shelters?

Don't think too hard on this.

[darkangel218]

102. How about stop destroying their habitat??

For starters. And if someone hits a deer, too bad. The signs are all over the place, you knpw you're in deer land. No excuse to go kill them and pose with their corpses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. I noticed you avoided the question

I guess would be best if we just let it rot.

Anyhow, not destroying the habitat includes the reintroduction of wolves, bobcats and mountain lions, oh I forgot bears.

I suspect that you really need a lot of reading on this...

For the record in an ideal world, I would reintroduce all apex predators into their North American range. That includes my personal favorite big cat, Lynx, and yes, in the extreme south of the US, Panther.

Here, so you are introduced to some of these animals



Lynx, sorry circle of life...



Panther



I hope that cougar downing his lunch does not hurt your sensibilities.



Same for the bobcat

Let me include a brown bear chasing it's favorite fall food... SALMON

[RegieRocker]

209. Agenda 21 lover

and they don't even know what it is. Everyone stacked in small dwellings in urban communities and no rural living. Only big commercial farms. Yea, that's the ticket.

[Green_Lantern]

266. you'd rather see people and deer killed on the highway...

Than have hunters kill a deer?

Why is it acceptable for a bobcat to kill a deer but evil when people do it?

[Brickbat]

101. Where I'm at, deer are an invasive species.

At least they're tasty, though.

[sabrina 1]

124. You're a nice person.

I understand how you feel, I love the deer and rabbits and raccoons and would never be able to kill one even I was starving. But I grew up eating meat without thinking about it, so I can't be angry at people who hunt until I give up eating meat.

However, I do really understand how you feel

[quaker bill]

213. We also built your house in what once was their forest.

[NCTraveler]

224. "We built roads in THEIR forest, not the other way around. "

No we didn't. They have no monopoly on the forest.

[Egalitarian Thug]

183. That's not an excuse, you're just wrong. We've killed off way too many predators and the populations

of prey animals are wildly out of balance.

The problem with bringing back the populations of predators is that they are just like us and given the choice of tracking and killing a deer, or strolling into a herd of cattle and taking as much as you want, they choose the latter.

So, if you want to eliminate hunting by people we have to convince the overwhelming majority of North Americans to become vegetarians. I'm sure that will be a winning campaign platform.

[pipoman]

90. Never heard of cronic wasting

disease, or mange or a whole host of other horrible conditions and diseases associated with over population, huh? I've seen it, so have wildlife officials, that is why hunting is licensed. Further without the revenues from hunting licenses there would be a fraction of the wildlife there is today. Take a look at duck habitat. Duck stamp sales are the sole reason many species of ducks are even alive today. People who have never contributed a single cent to wildlife preservation bitching about hunting is the height of hypocrisy..this may be one of the points of the OP..

[darkangel218]

99. On what basis do you assume i dont contribute ??

Not putting a bullet in an animal IS contribution enough. Sorry I'm not an animal killer like you.

[pipoman]

110. The vast, vast majority of people who can't understand

the overall benefit of controlled hunting on maintaining a healthy animal population, don't contribute a cent. In fact there are very few wildlife funds, and federations not driven by hunters donations.

My state purchased and reintroduced wild elk in the early 1970's with no tax money, only deer tag money. Now there are at least 4 wild herds. In the early 1980's populations were thriving, tags were sold for limited number of animals to control the population. The money was used to introduce turkeys in 1984. By 1990 populations exploded across the state. Before this explosion coyotes had mange from malnutrition, bobcat populations were nonexistent, now there are around 10 times more cats, cougar populations have returned. There is around 300,000 acres across my state maintained solely by hunting and fishing license sales.

In the 1980's duck habitat in historic marshes across the country were in danger along with numerous species of waterfowl. These marshes were dredged and maintained by the contributions of groups like Ducks Unlimited and Federal Duck Stamp sales. Wood ducks, mergansers, sandhill crane and whooping crane populations would likely be extinct instead of thriving.

You're a vegan? You don't use any animal products? Fine. Just don't be a hypocrite.

[darkangel218]

197. The only reason you " contribute " to wildlife refuges

Is so you won't run out of prey! God forbid someday they might ban deer hunting! :0 you wouldn't know what to do with.yourselves. See that's where the problem is, for you its all a game, entertainment, on the expense if inocent lives. You wanna be fair game , hunt with bow and arrows like our ancestors, while running all day in the woods. But why the effort? when its so much easier to pop a bullet. Lol and you call me a hypocrite hahaha!

[loli phabay]

198. you do realise that bow hunting is huge, i let four guys bow hunt on my property every year

whats with the innocent lives bit you do realise that you may see it this way but to most people deer are either food, cute animals or roadkill.

[darkangel218]

200. If its food, why do they pose with it??

It's a freaking game, it boosts their ego and probably makes them feel bigger men lol. Pretty sad when you think about it. But most ppl don't think about other species, just about themselves. Whatever, I guess to each their own. Can't try to find a heart where there isn't one.

[loli phabay]

201. you do realise that people have posed with their food whether its a deer or loaf of bread

for all time, tell me if you had an infestation of cockroaches in your home would you just live next to them thinking that you have a heart for loving another species. You do realise taht lots of women hunt and fish as well and have for millenium, food is food.

[loli phabay]

203. who said that, i kill deer, rabbits, groundhogs, squirrels, fish to supply food for my family and fr

and also to protect our vegetable gardens. Same as my ancestors have done for centuries.

[darkangel218]

206. Yah. lol. Because is so hard to buy meat from supermarkets.

Oh wait, that would be no fun! Killing taste better doesn't it?
Excuse me while I go and puke. I'm done with this thread,

[loli phabay]

207. okay so its okay for you to buy meat from the supermarket cause someone else killed for you

at least i get have that link with what i eat, for you the meat you eat is just a product, nothing. Cant believe how many people think that them buying meat from the supermarket is somehow more holy than someone eating roadkill or the fruits of their hunting.

PS hunted meat is better because its cheaper.

[pipoman]

227. OK, my first response to this post probably wasn't

approperate..LOL

We are all products of our life's experiences, let me introduce you to someone with completely different life's experiences than you...(apparently)

Born in a farming community on the plains in Nebraska in the mid-1960's, it was a wholesome setting, acres and acres of corn in the summertime, cattle grazing in pastures, farmers harvesting vast fields of grasses to feed their cattle herds through the winter. The corn used to feed people around the world. Some of the highest yields in the nation, home of more acres of corn to be used as seed the next year for farmers around the world than any other county on the planet.

A farmer, like the child's grandfather, could raise a family on the production from 180 acres. A flock of chickens produced enough beautiful brown eggs for the farmer, and the child's family. Every spring the farmer would allow 3 or 4 of his laying hens to brood a dozen or so eggs each. The child awaited the hatching of the chicks. They were so cute following their very protective mother around. As the chicks grew, it became apparent which were cockerels (immature roosters) and which were pullets (immature hens). At around 22 weeks the pullets would start laying eggs. The cockerels were big enough. The farmer would go out and evaluate the flock. He would pick the hens which have become older and their egg production had waned, the cockerels (because the flock only needs 1 or 2 roosters), and a few of the pullets to get the number of laying hens back down to a level of production of eggs that was needed and insure enough coop space for the flock. The family would have a butcher day starting in the morning after a good breakfast, grandpa would start a small fire and grandma would fill the scalding pot with water. The pot would go over the fire and the water would get very hot. Dad would get the first chicken and cut it's throat and hang it to bleed out, then the next and the next until all of the birds were hanging. Grandma would take each chicken and dip it in the now boiling water, then hand one to the child to pull the feathers off...everyone but grandma and mom pulled feathers. Grandma and mom ast at a table and cleaned the organ cavities of the birds, putting the liver, heart, and first stomach (gizzard) into one pan, and the rest of the internals into another, then carefully washing the carcass, and placing them into bags. Ater a while mom would start cleaning the gizzards, cutting the stomachs open and cleaning out the contents of gravel and crushed grain and peeling the membrane off the inside. At the end of the day, maybe 60 birds had been placed in the freezer to last until next year. The old hens were marked for soup and a more delicious and flavorful soup just can't be made using store bought 12 week old chickens, the broth is deep yellow, the farm fresh noodles made with the day old eggs makes a dish which makes you glad you butchered chickens in the fall.

Late winter was calving season, the calves run and play in the late winter sunlight. Out of a herd of 40 or 50 cows one or two don't make it through the birthing process. Feeding the orphans from a bottle every morning and evening the child gets to know the orphans. Carrying them food and watering them every day for a year and a half the child knows the animals. One day the grandpa is ready to castrate the young bulls making them steers. A steer will develop better meat marbling and grow to a heavier weight quicker than a young bull will. After a year and a half it is time to take the animals to market as slaughter cattle some steers, some old cows which are no longer productive mothers. Grandpa takes 2 of the orphan steers to the local processing butcher. Grandpa and the child's family have meat in the freezer. The sirloins are like none other, as tender as a rib eye.

December is deer season. Grandpa has identified around 8 deer on his small farm. He knows this is too many because it will result in 14 next spring. We buy the tags from the state to kill 4 deer, bringing the population to a manageable size. Some years there are only 3 deer, on those years grandpa listens for some other farmer neighbor who has too many deer and we cull his population. Either way, after deer season everyone has deer in the freezer. If we harvest more than we can use in a year, we take some to the food bank, or give it to neighbors who will eat it. This has been the process for over a hundred years. Deer populations have never been healthier, and disease from over population never been less.

This is the reality of food production around the world, since the beginning of time. Well over 90% of the world's population eat meat as a staple in their diet. The meat in the grocery store was once, not too long ago, a living, breathing creature.

This is my story. I have always known where my meat comes from, even when I buy it in the store, so do my children. We don't waste meat because we know where it came from. Others take their trip to the store completely for granted...or worse, they think they are somehow more humane by buying their meat at the store rather than producing it themselves...it would be laughable if not so sad.

[loli phabay]

204. Again would you kill the cockroaches or just live with them

just want to see if its only what you think are cute animals that we are not allowed to kill.

[belcffub]

232. the horror

what bastards... posing with their food

[pipoman]

217. So you're not a vegan, eh?

Then yes, you are a hypocrite. There will never be an end to deer hunting because it would destroy the species. Read the scientific data compiled by the game divisions of nearly every state government. The conservation of wildlife is a science. Denial of this is no different than denial of natural selection, or evolution. Thousands do bow hunt annually. Conservation is conservation, and failure to fund conservation would destroy habitat and populations. The joke is really on you and people like you who believe silliness and deny science.

[freshwest]

186. Tell me, where do you think the human race should be on this issue?

Are you of the opinion that Jainism is the route that is correct for the people on this thead?

Most people I know could not live up to that.

I don't judge others on this, as I feel a person's actions are their responsibility, and not mine.

How do you incorporate your beliefs into your daily life?

We have a Vegan, Vegetarian and Animal Rights group where people who want to not eat meat, from any source, talk about alternatives.

These are earnest questions and I hope you will take the time to answer them.

[azul]

171. Hello. Never heard of mad cow

disease, or maybe ebola virus or aids virus? I've seen it, many people fear it, that is why war is legal: overpopulation. Further, without war-for-profit using up resources and money there would be less starvation and preventable deaths from poverty. Take a look at terrorist habitat. The war on terror is a major reason many terrorists are recruited every day: alive with real grievances. People that contribute to the war machine may rest assured that corporate authorities are doing their best to keep the population in check to maximize profits.
Hunters, of all stripes, will perhaps best understand the necessity of sacrifice when the drones come a hunting in the name of peace and prosperity and ecological balance.

[pipoman]

228. LOL

another one who thinks meat comes from the grocery store...

[Jennicut]

70. I have no problem with people that hunt.

People have been hunting forever. And lots of Dems do hunt.

As long as it is done legally and as long as it is not just about getting a trophy then I think it is fine.

I just have a problem with the expectation that those that prefer not to are somehow less tough then those that do. It is a personal choice to be into hunting. I don't care that people do hunt, I just don't feel like doing it myself. I think it is also all about where you grew up. I grew up in a suburb in Connecticut. It is not really a bastion of hunting.

[madrchsod]

72. i must confess my wife and i killed to deer out of season...

i killed one on the way to work and my wife killed one coming back from work a month later.

cars kill almost as many deer in a lot of states as do hunters

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. In some places they are picked and processed

and used. Hope that was their fate.

I hope your car and YOU and YOUR WIFE are fine. Deer can total cars too.

[madrchsod]

75. could`t find the deer...

one was in the fog and the other was to damaged to save.

by the way i like your photos on facebook

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Thanks, I think I will put a small gallery of the Ranchita fire on the posterous.

[tama]

129. In these parts

many people hunt small deers by driving back and forth rural roads night time. Not recommended method for elk hunting...

I had a taste of roadkill fox not so long ago. Not at all bad.

[flvegan]

74. I'm a vegan, dammit.

And a liberator of animals. I'd rather folks NOT hunt nor fish. Fact is, 99% don't need to.

That said, this topic is a non-starter. Let me deviate from animal rights to the current political issue at hand. Hunting and fishing on this level shouldn't even be discussed.

There is no "gotcha" here. Leave it be. Dems and Repubs both do it.

[tama]

136. As a vegan

What do you think about the hunter-gatherer and nomadic tribes that are still with us and have proven to be able to live in sustainable ecological balance, in areas where pure plant diet is not possible (e.g. arctic and desert)?

[flvegan]

150. As a vegan, it doesn't matter what I think.

I don't judge in those regards. I've come a long way to that.

[Walk away]

78. Hunting for food is only evil if the hunter is a poor marksman and causes unnecessary pain or....

the food is wasted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Especially if the food is wasted

I have no issue if people try to preserve the head as a trophy... ancient practice actually. And with a deer you can do both. But I have a problem when the animal is not fully processed otherwise and used to feed people.

But if the hunter wants to keep a totem... (aka the head) go for it...

There are other animals you really cannot do that with... so eat it damn it!

[gulliver]

85. Hunters are environmentalists. I'll bet Republicans have all the fake hunters.

Like Cheney, who has someone find his birds and then gets drunk and shoots them. Or Palin, or Nugent or Perry. They give the sport a bad name.

Real hunters appreciate the environment, so they are natural Dems. They eat what they kill. They keep animal populations managed. It is completely natural and human.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Chenney is a special case and they exist regardless of party affiliation

I suspect that has a lot more to do with money and power... than putting food on table.

What I am saying is that the argument that good hunters are democrats and bad hunters are republicans is almost as bad as all hunters are republicans.

This dog don't hunt, and if we are to make inroads into rural areas this stupidity needs to stop.

[Beearewhyain]

97. +1

I am not a hunter but know more than a few. My experience with them makes me think that if we could form a coalition between the environmentalist and the outdoor sports folk that there is no way you could contain the sustainable legislative Juggernaut that would rip through Congress. Unfortunately one group is more concerned about the smell of patchouli and the other the smell of gun powder rather than their common goals.

[loli phabay]

123. lol i love the visualisation there.

[Mopar151]

127. With you 100% on this

Weapons fetishists and real hunters seem to be mutually exclusive.

Ask one of these NRA boosters what the gun lobby is doing about the slob hunters and backyard popshooters who give their sport/hobby/divine right such a black eye with the general public, or the lunatic fringers with 2 closets full of ammo and "issues".

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. You got it

So here is the question, how do we build bridges to hunters?

[Mopar151]

194. Emphasize the difference between hunters and irresponsible gun owners

Play up the safety training that is a large part of hunter safety courses - and screen the instructors for such courses more thoroughly.

See if game meat (like lean, healthy venison) could make an appearance on the White House table, with appropriate approval of the First Lady - perhaps with a course of wild caught trout, as well. (This may cause crainial explosion in a few RW "outdoorsmen" - sweet!)

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. Especially the last one, would be an excellent idea

politically.

[pintobean]

94. K&R

[Kalidurga]

106. My dad leaned left, my mom leaned right.

My dad was a hunter, my mom wasn't. There might be more republican hunters than democrats. But, this shouldn't be a political thing. Just like religion. There are fewer religious democrats, but still there are more church going democrats than non-church goers. It's rather pointless to paint an activity or non-activity with such a broad brush.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Yup, why I pointed to the stupidity of it

[emilyg]

113. I have a friend in Ky. - he hunts with

a group - what they kill feeds families that otherwise would not eat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I suspect that area of the country

subsistence hunting is higher than where I live.

Appalachia has been so poor that hunting is critical to survival.

[iamthebandfanman]

126. Oh yeah? I live in kentucky too.

And i go to a grocery store, and when/if i cant afford it theres churches here that give away free food as well as cook dinners at night for down and under folks...not to mention i could go down to the health services office n apply for EBT and other government assistant programs.

nobody should have to hunt for food in this day and age.

dont get me wrong, im not denying a proverty problem in the mountains of my state.. but most of them are just unaware of services available to them or are too proud, from my experiences.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. And we also treat our domestic animals like shit

but that is another thread.

There is pride, but the reality is that some people hunt to feed themselves. I have no issue with that. And with deer, unless we reintroduce predators... sorry, we are it.

[loli phabay]

192. i live in the mountains of virginia and i hunt, so do my neighbours

why the hell should we have to go begging to the churches or anyone else for food if we can easily get meat ourselves in our woods and in our gardens. You talk about pride, of course they are proud they are using their own skills to provide for their families without having to go ask for free stuff. given the choice between the canned stuff that the local churches give out or some fresh deer or squirrel and vegetables from our gardens ill take the later anyday.

[PavePusher]

249. Some people like to promote dependancy.

No, I don't understand it.

[limpyhobbler]

115. I agree 100%

If anything we need to protect the hunting and fishing areas from unwanted industrial development.

Most politicians who make a big show out of hunting are just posers trying to look tough to get votes.

If people are concerned about cruelty to animals, they need to start investigating where that meat at the grocery store comes from. A factory farm is only about the cruelest thing on earth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Agreed, I even posted some pictures of battery cages on this thread

And piggies (one of the most intelligent animals out there), and cows... top of you know what.

[LeftyMom]

119. Killing for amusement is fucked up. I don't give a good god damn that JFK did it.

I'm not fond of arguments from dead authorities (arguments from live authorities are fallacious enough, thanks) but if we're going to play battle of the Democratic political icons Cesar Chavez and Coretta Scott King were vegan, and that's good enough for me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. What I am telling you is that if you want to win

in rural areas this is a non issue, really.

And if you really want to argue about cruelty to animals, look into industrial agriculture.

I am proof positive that this is far more humane than fishing or hunting





So it this



Don't even look here

?9d7bd4

The problem with the hunting is terrible and cruel argument is that first, it ignores the reality of industrial agriculture, and secondly, it also ignores the reality in my back country, and I am not living in isolation... poor people supplement their food with wild turkey and yes, in season, deer. I guess starvation would be better.

But hey... you are right, we can ignore all that and keep attacking people in rural areas because they are just damn heartless republicans who enjoy killing animals for sport. There are some who do... but I suspect it is a minority. Did I mention fitting the NRA portrayal of the latte drinking lib'rul in the city?

[LeftyMom]

131. Are you trying to explain industrial agriculture to me?

At least you used spell check this time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Ah I see, you have a problem

Suffice it to say I no longer do either juries or alerts

[yewberry]

178. I am sorry to report that you fail.

The post you're responding to did not address cruelty. It specifically referred to hunting for entertainment. Also, the poster you're responding to is vegan, and is well aware of the cruelty of industrial agribusiness.

Please re-read the post you responded to, and your response:

"But hey... you are right, we can ignore all that and keep attacking people in rural areas because they are just damn heartless republicans who enjoy killing animals for sport. There are some who do... but I suspect it is a minority. Did I mention fitting the NRA portrayal of the latte drinking lib'rul in the city?"

You've attributed a HUGE amount of shit to LeftyMom that she sure as hell never said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Whatever, good bye

[yewberry]

189. Responding to actual facts too much for you?

Wow, that's just sad.

I did not attack or try to offend. I guess defending your own assumptions and assertions is beyond you. Sorry about that.

[abelenkpe]

133. +1000 nt

[iamthebandfanman]

121. youre being a troll.

anyone who starts out 'its a bad thing to go after'
and then proceeds to open a whole new post for fighting about it
is being a troll.
firstly because.. NOBODY GOING AFTER IT. only in your mind.
people talking about it on DU doesnt translate into the presidents policy.

shouldnt u be out killing something instead of making this flame troll thread?

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Really, so I imagined the OPs pointing out how ONLY republicans hunt

because they are sick?

What I find amazing is that you are calling me a troll. Amusing.



I raised a serious issue, if people want to actually start to make inroads in rural america. This game is a non winning proposition.

Care to go into substance or keep it up?

[yewberry]

159. Wasn't there like one, hotly-contested OP that linked hunting with republicans?

I hate sport and trophy hunting (and before you ask, no, I haven't eaten animals since the 80's), but would never, ever attempt to make that a partisan issue.

But really, come on, I don't think that any OP said that "ONLY republicans hunt" and there certainly wasn't a rash of threads to that effect. No need to create drama where there is none.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. Yes there was, but that is ok

and a lot of the people here who happen to be back country democrats, WHO DO HUNT AND FISH, were getting quite annoyed by this... not just me. For the record, my tool for hunting is a NIKON with a 300 lens... before you too acuse me of being a hunter, like with a rifle and a bullet.

And yes, I am a city gal. But I get this, mostly because my back country has people who do this to put food on table.

[yewberry]

170. Okay, so there was one post, and many people shot it down (rightly) as a bad association to make.

So why go to such ends to whip up drama and divisiveness over the issue?

Most of us understand that we (Americans, Democrats, people) live different lives and have different approaches to making things work. Sure, some "back country democrats" might get quite annoyed by an ill-advised OP. Alternately, some "latte-drinking, limousine liberals" might get quite annoyed by other ill-advised OPs about them.

Give us a little credit, though. Many, maybe even most, DUers have the sense to recognize dopiness when we see it. No reason to create more divisiveness amongst ourselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. What divisiveness, and this is NOT one OP

we have had more than just one.

And if you think poiinting out that this shit is costing DEMOCRATS in rural areas, is being divisive, well, the NRA thanks you... I do not know if you realize they count on this to keep people voting for Republicans. Go read something, Joe Baegant "Deer Hunting with Jesus" is required reading on this subject

http://books.google.com/books/about/Deer_Hunting_with_Jesus.html?id=nlnZKK-RgbcC

Have an excellent day.

[yewberry]

187. Divisiveness:

YOU are encouraging divisiveness by asserting that "back country democrats" and "latte liberals" aren't smart enough to work together, that we can't understand each other, that we can't value each others experience. Most of us get it. Lots of us have lived lives in rural, suburban, and urban settings in one lifetime, and those who haven't might just be smart enough to see others' perspectives. Give them some credit.

And yes, you stated that there was more than one OP asserting that hunting was ONLY a republican thing. Really? That's just inflaming drama for no reason.

Again, I sure wouldn't support alienating folks who hunt or fish for sustenance. Don't know anyone who would, really.

[Loudestlib]

134. Big Tent, First World Problems

POLLUTION KILLS MORE ANIMALS THAN HUNTERS

Lets talk about that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. And industrial agriculture is far more cruel

than hunters... which I have actually talked about in this thread.

[Loudestlib]

149. I think it's better to unite us with things we agree on.

For example:

"That Paul Ryan is a Bambi kill'in soulless man"

"Did you know that a lot of hunters are conservationist. I bet if they knew more about green energy they could give it a big boosted."


... I think you see my point. I know it gets tiresome but (insert random cliche metaphor.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. But first we need to stop this

demonization... and Paul Ryan did not kill bambi's mom. that thing is a buck, not a doe.

(I know the damn difference and I don't hunt)

Now yes, most hunters I know want to preserve hunting grounds, for different reasons than I do, perhaps, but we can work together.

[tkmorris]

139. Was there someone suggesting we SHOULD "go after" hunting?

I have no idea who this OP is supposed to be aimed at.

[Hoyt]

142. I understand hunting/fishing. I don't understand arming up to hunt/shoot people

in public, under guise of self-defense or standing your ground against people, or some rouge government in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. THey are not the same thing, really

Some individuals might fit both, but they are not. Here is where the NRA was captured. Remember the NRA who held classes on gun safety and was an environmental organization concerned about preservation of the back country? Ok that be a generation ago, if not longer.

Here we are talking about hunters, some who do it once a year, with a licence, part of the white deer control program to thin them herds, some who do it to simply put food on table... not about our daily shooting, must of which do not even occur with rifles. Hell, most are not even reported by media anymore. 3 people shot dead in South East San Diego and four to the Trauma center, is just Tuesday afternoon).

[Hoyt]

147. I agree. But "hunting" is used as an excuse to refrain from passing sane gun laws.

I don't think "hunting" should be used as an excuse to tacitly endorse lax gun laws.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. I think that is where an alliance with hunters has to occur

given that a good majority of the NRA members agree that we need some regulation... we COULD build that bridge, but only if we stop demonizing them. (Which was the point of this OP)

[Hoyt]

157. I agree with "alliance" with hunters idea. I don't support NRA and its attempt to defeat Obama and

other Democrats, or any of its board members such as Grover Norquist, John Bolton, and worse.

And I don't want to see any more photos of Donald Trump's sons, or anyone else, shooting endangered big cats.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. That is where the NRA will have to have an internal revolt

or go away. NRA members don't agree with the NRA board.

[Hoyt]

162. Then, they need to vote them out -- but, it's not going to happen.

I think we are in basic agreement.

I just think far too much "guns are good for our society" crud is promoted under guise of protecting hunting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. No disagreement there

what we both need to figure out is how to approach our local hunters, most don't even have the fancy rifles that look like assault guns... (They are semi, but that is another story). Hell, one of my locals uses a Winchester, no serious. That gun is much older than him. Hell, one of them has a Henry (civil war rifle). He uses it for the Civil War recreation and turkey hunting. As he once put it, "takes much more skill to bag a turkey."

They tend to dislike the urban types that come during opening with all that fancy gear they are not safe around... their words.

Those are the people we need to build a bridge to... not the NRA types who are afraid the big Guv'ment wants to take precious away. They were the ones that also were in the minority I am guessing who do not want any regulation.

But the back country folks are afraid, they have been fed this, that even though they want some (to a lot) of regulation, that is the first step because well, democrats (look around here), hate hunters and hunting.

So we get into the lovely circle.

[Paladin]

225. The Split You're Talking About Has Already Happened.

Google "Fudds Gun Owner". A "Fudd" is the insulting term that the assault rifle crowd uses for traditional gun owners (like me). It turns up in our very own DU Gun Control/RKBA group every once in a while. The wedge is there, it just needs to be worked.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. Thanks, suspected as much

[Grave Grumbler]

241. The Fudd in action:

"Be vewy, vewy quiet.  I'm hunting assault wifles!"

[friendly_iconoclast]

269. That's odd, we have nothing against your sniper rifles and combat shotguns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System

M24 Sniper Weapon System

The M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS) is the military and police version of the Remington 700 rifle, M24 being the model name assigned by the United States Army after adoption as their standard sniper rifle in 1988. The M24 is referred to as a "weapons system" because it consists of not only a rifle, but also a detachable telescopic sight and other accessories.




Marine of Charlie Co., 1st Bn., 6th Marines with Mossberg 590 Shotgun, December 2003



U.S. Marines assigned to the Seventh Fleet, Fleet Anti-terrorism Security Team (FAST), Third Platoon, fam-fire the Mossberg M500 shotgun aboard USS Blue Ridge (LCC 19). The M500 is a magazine feed, manually operated pump action, smoothbore gun.

[Paladin]

272. I Don't Need A Rem. 700 Tarted Up As A "Sniper Rifle."

I'll tell you how weird I am: I don't even get a hard-on when the word "tactical" is mentioned. To top it off, I'm living proof that a gun owner can believe in gun control measures. Amazing, huh?

[friendly_iconoclast]

273. Point is, your "traditional" guns function EXACTLY the same way as the ones I posted.

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-700.aspx


http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3

Hunting every day beats the alternatives.
Every single last blessed one of them.

Mossberg's 500® pump-action shotguns offer an amazing amount of gun for an unbeatable price. The variety of stock, barrel and finish options alone would assure the place of the 500® in the hearts of outdoorsmen. But, of course, its performance in the field goes a long way in cementing its reputation with millions of hunters as well.

First and foremost, the 500® is built to the same uncompromising mil-specs as the renowned Mossberg® 590®. Then a host of features are introduced - Quiet Carry™ dual-action bars, 3" chambers and aambidextrous safety, to name a few. Some models also include factory-ported barrels; the industry's first fully-rifled slug barrel and our Trophy Slugster™. A simple change of barrel and/or choke tubes is all that's required to take one shotgun from upland birds to waterfowl, to turkey, to deer.
Slugster® Big-Game Models

To deliver the accuracy potential of modern sabot slugs, our 500® Slugster® models feature fully-rifled, ported barrels with a variety of sighting options that include an integral cantilever scope mount base, and light-gathering adjustable fiber optic and traditional Williams rifle sights.
Versatile Two-Barrel Combo Setsscope mount base, and light-gathering adjustable fiber optic and traditional Williams rifle sights.


The widest range of versatility comes from our broad selection of Mossberg® 500® Combos in 12 or 20 gauge. With its two-barrel combos, Mossberg® pioneered the idea that a shotgun can provide more than just one season of shooting and hunting enjoyment.

The 18-1/2" barreled home security shotgun becomes a hard-hitting bird gun when the 28" combo barrel is installed. For deer hunters, vent rib and fully-rifled slug barrel sets are an unbeatable value. Our patented Dual-Comb® combos add the advantage of quickly and easily changing stock dimensions between high comb for scope sighting and low comb for wingshooting. This year, we've expanded your choices to include 12- or 20-gauge Combos in Mossy Oak® New Break-Up® and a new .50 Cal. Muzzleloader/12-Gauge Slug set.

I realize you lot have been out of sorts since Jim Zumbo dumped you, but don't try and kid yourself (or us) that those 'nice' guns are in any way different than what the military uses, save for appearance.

And even appearance isn't counting for so much these days as a lot of hunters have learned to appreciate function over looks when it comes to details like stocks and finishes.

[PavePusher]

275. What parts, exactly, mean it is "Tarted Up As A "Sniper Rifle""...

and how is that different from an average or even highly customized "hunting rifle"?

[aikoaiko]

274. Your window of opportunity to use this distinction as a wedge is closing.

Semi-automatic rifles with pistol grips and detachable magazines (or "Assault rifles" as you say (I can't believe you used that term in this discussion), are replacing the bolt action on many hunting trips.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

And the fun part is that you know it. Old the old tricks of the anti-gun crowd no longer work.

[freshwest]

175. That is the generation I remember. Serious, respectful, prudent. The neo-con NRA sucks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. THere has been a lot of capture, not just the NRA,

and we need to find a way to build bridges. The NRA specifically, the members are not happy, we know this thanks to polling by a certain republican pollster.

[freshwest]

188. Well, I guess we just have to get some of our Gungeoneers on it. I'm sure none of the NRA...

Would be interested in the view of a city slicker, even though there is a gun shop across the street.

[HERVEPA]

146. Trophy hunting sucks. Trophy fishing sucks.

Enjoying hunting or fishing sucks, but doing it to have food to eat is somewhat understandable.
Sorry, but there's just something wrong with enjoying killing anything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Well humans have been hunting for the last 100,000 years

Hominids have been doing it for about a million years.

Our brain is fully dependent on the rich calorie source coming from animal protein.

Are you vegan? I mean 100% vegan? If not, look up how your chickens are raised, I guarantee it will make killing a couple deer in the fall, and mostly eating the animals... keeping the head, sure, we have been creating totems as long as Homo Sapiens has been around, to be good in comparison.

Circle of life, we are part of it by the way.

[HERVEPA]

154. Sorry. your comments don't change the fact that ENJOYING it sucks.

Only eat eggs from free roaming (as opposed to the meaningless cage-free) chickens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. Sorry to bust the bubble

but I worked in a chicken coup.



This is free roaming, by industry definition, not cage free. So unless your chickens are coming from a small operation, (like the ones I happen to buy eggs from at the market)... this is what you are doing.

And enjoying sucks for you, but again, tribes used to celebrate the success of the hunt. You could say it is in the genes. I mean, success means we eat, and survive.

[HERVEPA]

165. Amish Farmer

Celebrating the success of the hunt because they needed the food to eat. It's not the same as enjoying the hunting anyhow.
And anyhow, lots of things have occurred for thousands or millions of years that were thought perfectly normal.
e.g. slavery. Doesn't make it right.

Definition includes access to the outside by the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Look, you think that hunting is eeevviillll that is obvious

whatever... I will not try to talk to you anymore,

Have a good day.

[HERVEPA]

168. Read critically. ENJOYING hunting is evil. Hunting for sport is evil. That is what I said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Ergo it is evil, good bye

[HERVEPA]

182. ENJOYING it is evil! (I thought you said good-bye before).

[loli phabay]

193. i dont follow the concepts of good and evil so enjoying being out and about

and using skills taught to me by my family to fish, trap and hunt for food is okay for me.

[Major Nikon]

181. The term free roaming only applies to poultry raised for meat per the USDA

So you might be buying "free roaming" eggs thinking you are getting something special, but there is absolutely no guarantee by the USDA of this when it comes to eggs.

It really doesn't even mean that much when it comes to poultry raised for meat either. All it means is that poultry are afforded the opportunity to have access to the outside whether they actually do or not. A poultry farm can satisfy this requirement simply by having a small pen at one end of a long and narrow poultry barn filled with thousands of chickens. So if you're envisioning hens that are roaming green pastures hunting for bugs, you have probably been sold a bill of goods and paid more for essentially the same thing.

As far as hunting goes, if people didn't enjoy hunting, they wouldn't do it. If they don't do it, wildlife management fails. If wildlife management fails, animals die of starvation and disease. I don't think most people would consider this a good option. YMMV.

[Aerows]

153. Yep, lay off the hunting and fishing

men and women of all political stripes and none hunt and fish. Branding people as any political party because they hunt and fish, which people have been doing since before there even were political parties, is like branding people of certain political parties because they use the bathroom.

Disclosure: I have been known to fish and I am a liberal. I have also partaken of the meals brought back by hunters, including deer, squirrel, duck and quail. If it swims, runs or flies, I will probably try it, or already have.

Edit: I forgot slithers. I've had snake before, too.

[JDPriestly]

195. I will say this. I love venison, and there are too many deer in many parts of the

country. So many that they do not have sufficient food sometimes.

So, hunting as long as it does not destroy the herds is fine with me.

The natural predators of deer other than us humans in this country have been in great part killed off.

[sibelian]

199. It would be far more effective

to point out that most republican politicians only do it to appear wholesome and ordinary.

[Vattel]

205. I think we should strive to minimize the harm we do to sentient creatures.

Someone who has no compassion for the individual deer or cow or chicken, or who enjoys killing them, is morally deficient.

[Capt. Obvious]

208. If one were to find hunting evil

Then fight evil regardless of party registration.

Pretty simple.

[Scuba]

214. As a far-left progressive who hunts, fishes and....

... spends more than a few hours a year shooting clays, I can assure everyone that the Repukes do not "own" hunting, fishing or firearm ownership.

I'm also an advocate for much stricter gun controls and a harsh critic of the NRA.

And don't forget that those who hunt and fish are also advocates for protecting our environment.



Thanks for the post.

[TransitJohn]

216. Hunting is really mainstream, even in cities. This is a losing smear. eom

n/t

[Erose999]

223. Sen. Nelson is kind of a douche... just saying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. Not the point of the OP

[Comrade_McKenzie]

226. I'm an atheist, but agree with humans having domain over the animals.

When done responsibly and by the law, it's perfectly fine.

[barbtries]

231. as long as you eat it

or use it somehow usefully. trophy hunting i find sickening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. With some animals, see deer, you can do both actually

I would not recommend eating brain, of either deer or cow, for the record.... so you can process most of the animal, and keep your head as a totem, trophy, whatever you want to call it.

The reason I would not recommend brain is Prions and Mad Cow. Not because brain is disgusting or bad, but there is some evidence of Mad Cow spreading to wild deer populations.

http://www.mad-cow.org/99feb_cwd_special.html

[redqueen]

235. Trophy hunters ARE evil. There's no two ways about it.

They kill for sport.

Case closed.


Hunting for food is another story and as long as humane methods are used I don't see them as evil at all. In fact they can be good allies in the environmental movement. Can be. Sometimes some of them put their desires ahead of the health/needs of the ecosystems they hunt in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

243. So you think all hunters just kill for the fun of it?

And I will add, with deer, I have zero issue if you process most of the animal for food, and KEEP the head as a totem, trophy, what have you. As is, due to mad cow disease, spreading to the herds, you should NOT eat it anyway.

[redqueen]

250. I thought I was pretty clear.

Eat the meat = not a trophy hunter. Incidental collection of trophies from animals is not the same as hunting FOR trophies.

There's a huge difference between someone traveling not very far to hunt animals to eat, and someone who wastes energy traveling large distances to kill animals for fun. Especially if it's one of those pathetic canned hunts. That's not even hunting. That's just wanton slaughter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

256. The problem is that the MAJORITY of hunters are not ones

going to canned hunts, Opening day notwithstanding, when local folk stay indoors, most hunting is not done for fun.

And what I am trying to do also is separate this.

The ones who do what you despise are actually a large loud, minority.

For the record, my weapon of choice, mostly I would not trust myself with one with bullets, is a camera with a 300 mm lens.

[zappaman]

257. Gonna have to agree with you there.

I really don't understand the "trophy" aspect at all.
How is it "sport" to shoot something that can't shoot back?

[Proles]

238. There's nothing wrong with fishing at all in my opinion.

Nothing really wrong with hunting either, though I'm rather philosophically against hunting for sport. I mean, if you're going to hunt an animal, at least make sure you eat it or something.

And absolutely no hunting endangered animals, obviously, but I'm sure most would agree with that.

But to get to your point, I agree that coming out against hunting as a whole is a bad idea. It's a sure way to cost rural democrat votes. What's the point of alienating voters over something that in the end is relatively trivial?

[Jack Sprat]

239. Sure do agree.

I'm not a hunter myself, being a cityboy whose father didn't hunt either. But I know it's popular among those who do. I know those people have a real affinity for the outdoors and are probably equally represented by all parties.

[nadinbrzezinski]

251. I hope to god you do not eat steak, or chicken

I call that barbaric and cruel and sadistic, and yes, I still eat them. I try to go for "free range" or "grass fed" since it makes me feel better, not because it is necessarily that much better.

[patrice]

258. Agree!

[TheMightyFavog]

259. well spoken, Nadin

I could not have said this better myself.

[AtomicKitten]

260. For food, I can see it. Otherwise, there is nothing 'sporting' about hunting.

We should be actively looking at conservation and preservation of land, sea, and air critters all over the globe, not making it our business to wipe out entire species in a hurry. And those participating in 'trophy hunting' and canned hunts imo have reserved for them a particular place in hell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

262. Deer hunting season, as much as you personally might not agree with it.

is part of the herd management strategy. Your other choice is to reintroduce their natural predators in North America, such as mountain lions, lynx and in the extreme South West, panthers... good luck with that, given the issues we have had with wolf reintroduction. Wolves, for some odd reason, do prefer the relatively ease of going after cow than deer.

Me personally, do not see any issues with the reintroduction of Apex species by the way... but I know that doing that means your ranchers wil lose head to those same apex species. This is the reason they were removed from the environment, to begin with, for the most part. We still share this land, where I live... with a few kitties... kitties that are all but cute or friendly. Admittedly they are very shy though.

[AtomicKitten]

264. I don't make any claim that I'm right; it's really a visceral reaction.

I understand the need for herd management. What I don't understand are the knuckleheads hunting a la Ted Nugent with a bow, badly maiming animals. I am exquisitely squeamish and quite frankly horrified by the cruelty. Don't get me started on factory farming ...

You are correct in your assessment of Democratic participation in this disgusting political theater. At least President Obama has evolved and doesn't participate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

265. Well one of my local tribes is teaching the young

how to build bows, from selecting the tree, to curing the wood, to getting the bow, to fletching the arrow heads, to well.. hunting in the traditional way, the way it's been done for millennia. I see that as culture preservation. I would not do it... there are many reasons for that... but I get it.

As to evolved... Obama is an urban person... no serious, Hawaii has a very small hunting tradition, now don't get me started on fishing. I am actually surprised he did not pick on that... it is what people do, and fresh fish is womderful. Some people do hunt the wild boar, which is also quite out of control, on all Islands. And if he chose to go fishing... by all means Mr. President, enjoy the day off.

I personally do not see it as theater...

[AtomicKitten]

267. By theater, I mean 'the hunt' by candidates with press coverage.

It's like a right of passage in the political process which for some candidates is just plain silly.

You make a good point on fishing though. I've got no problem with it if the fish are actually consumed. If it's more than that, I'm a big fan of catch-and-release.

The truth is I'm the quintessential latte-drinking, Birkenstock-wearing, Manhattan Beach-to-Santa Cruz-to-San Francisco Californian that just doesn't "get" hunting. I do appreciate an informed different point of view on the subject, so thanks for that. Cheers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

268. I beat you on the latte drinking :-)

I grew up in one of the largest cities in the world, and I love my Birkenstocks. Yup, I need to replace my set. They do wonders for my knees.

As to a rite of passage for politicians... it is, to a point... but that is because in certain areas of the country, it is big. So if you are running for, especially national office, or local office where hunting is big (San Diego does not have that rite of passage for example)... you are expected to be one of the boys.

Hell, I'd love to see a few of my local pols get out there into the range for other reasons. This is what you guys are allowing to be industrialized.

But that is a whole different discussion.

[gollygee]

261. Most people where I live hunt and/or fish

it's a mixed area - an area of a lot of liberals and some conservaties, surrounded by an area of a lot of conservatives and some liberals. But both liberals and conservatives hunt. I imagine a higher percentage of conservatives than liberals, and someone said that mainly white people hunt and I agree with that though I don't agree re fishing - that seems to be popular among people of all races.

[customerserviceguy]

276. Thanks, great post

You are right about a few of the urban folks, they just don't get it. Alienating people who live a country lifestyle is the guaranteed way to lose every election in this country, the suburbanites can always be swayed by Republicons waiving tax cuts, and with those two groups aligned, there just aren't enough city people to hold more than a handful of seats in Congress.