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Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:02 AM

 

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This message was self-deleted by its author (NCChomskyan) on Fri Feb 15, 2019, 07:38 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
NCChomskyan Feb 11 OP
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 11 #1
NCChomskyan Feb 11 #3
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 11 #4
treestar Feb 11 #5
NCChomskyan Feb 11 #6
ProfessorPlum Feb 11 #7
Bradshaw3 Feb 11 #33
leftofcool Feb 11 #12
NCChomskyan Feb 11 #15
mr_lebowski Feb 11 #28
Bradshaw3 Feb 11 #34
Larrybanal Feb 11 #9
many a good man Feb 11 #13
catbyte Feb 11 #17
RobinA Feb 11 #37
Homer Wells Feb 11 #2
bigbrother05 Feb 11 #8
violetpastille Feb 11 #38
Kashkakat v.2.0 Feb 11 #10
spedtr90 Feb 11 #11
McKim Feb 11 #14
gtar100 Feb 11 #23
CentralMass Feb 11 #31
jcgoldie Feb 11 #16
yellerpup Feb 11 #18
Desert grandma Feb 11 #30
yellerpup Feb 11 #32
dlk Feb 11 #19
yaesu Feb 11 #20
Donkey king kong Feb 11 #21
safeinOhio Feb 11 #22
liberalnarb Feb 11 #24
yaesu Feb 11 #25
DFW Feb 11 #26
panfluteman Feb 11 #27
Spider Jerusalem Feb 11 #29
Bradshaw3 Feb 11 #36
Bradshaw3 Feb 11 #35

Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:06 AM

1. The scare quotes around "controversy" make it look like you're erasing the concerns

of Native people and others who object to her terminology, her selective self-identification and her judgment.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #1)


Response to NCChomskyan (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:31 AM

4. Native people themselves describe Warren's claims as an act of violence.

What on earth is the "core spirit of the American First Nations" and how does Warren "honor" it?

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:37 AM

5. What?

An act of violence. That’s insane. What about her working to protect the environment!

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #4)


Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:56 AM

7. well, that escalated quickly

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:01 PM

33. So you're speaking for Native Americans now?

Who are these people? The NYT article had one unelected official of the Cherokee Nation attacking her. Yet many many others, including Deb Haaland who was just on CNN, have rejected these attacks on Warren. Are you a tribal member, and if not do you feel like you can speak for them?

Or is there something else driving your accusations?

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Response to NCChomskyan (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:16 AM

12. Who told you what the "core spirit" of First Nations is?

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #12)


Response to NCChomskyan (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:12 AM

28. Aw, SNAP ...

I'm on your side on this one.

Bottom-line, if you're told by your family growing up you have XYZ heritage, which we have no reason to believe Warren is being dishonest about having happened ... YOU BELIEVE IT.

To me it's really that simple. She acted upon what her family told her, as just about anybody would.

This controversy is overblown.

Although the blood test (or at least, releasing the results thereof) was probably ill-advised. Esp. when it came back very low in %. I think had it come back resoundingly high, such that 'yes her grandmother was full-blood Cherokee' or whatever the relation was she'd described, many people would've responded differently.

Probably not the Cherokee Chief, who's protecting the authority to be the arbiter of Cherokee-ness (which is his tribes right, of course).

But many other people ... maybe even IQ45, would've been shut up if her genes showed a high association with Natives. But it didn't work out that way, so it basically backfired.

She should've kept the results to herself, frankly that was a mistake.

But IMHO that's her only real mistake around this whole issue.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:03 PM

34. Very well said

This non-issue gets brought up more than any other for the announced candidates, even though there are legitimate questions about some of them. I wonder about the motives of those doing so.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:59 AM

9. her terminology???

what about trump and pocohantus BS?

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:48 AM

13. Native Americans' hypocrisy on Blood Quantum

Sovereign Native American nations have the right to make whatever rules they want to limit tribal citizenship but blood quantum is a colonialist construct and is completely antithetical to Native tradition.

Warren, like many other Americans, is proud of her family's oral history of Native ancestry. She wasn't claiming citizenship in the Cherokee Nation or any other. She wasn't claiming it hoping to benefit from some imagined affirmative action quota program. She defined her "race" (another colonial construct) on some forms to express her pride and remind others that many of us share Native American heritage .

As someone who witnessed it up close, inter-tribal politics among Native Americans is even more depressing and disgusting than our national politics. There are many people in federally-recognized tribes that spend their lives policing who can or cannot call themselves Native. Granted, there are charlatans who debase sacred rituals for money and fame (and sex) but most are seeking to connect to and honor their heritage. Instead of welcoming this intention and working with them to honestly transmit the rituals and traditions, they attack and mock them. Federally-recognized tribes attack state-recognized tribes who attack other groups seeking recognition. Many do this to consolidate their own sense of "power" or to protect their own gaming or other revenue that they mistakenly believe all these "fake" Indians are after.

It will be tragic if this Trump-inspired "controversy" robs this country of a capable honest leader. The right wind narrative is winning -- if you're not lily-white then you must be angling for some kind of racial preference to steal jobs from white people. There is absolutely no evidence that Warren gained any advantage whatsoever for self-describing as Native or took a job away from a more deserving Native American or white person.







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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:08 AM

17. I'm more Ojibwe than I am white, and I don't object to her self-identification.

Granted, it was stupid of her to mark American Indian on her Texas bar application, but so many families have legends like that. When you grow up with it, you take it as truth. Jesus H. Christ, this is a tempest in a teapot, a nothing story, but it's one that will most likely doom her candidacy, much like the lie that Gore said he invented the Internet (which he didn't) helped doom his. She'll never be able to get past this. It's a goddamned shame.

I'm much more outraged at the people making this such an issue than her mistake. Then Biff supporting his old man's mocking genocide on Instagram, saying, "Savage!" They are the true villains in this piece, not Elizabeth Warren.

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Response to catbyte (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:16 PM

37. Biff...



Ain't it the truth.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:06 AM

2. Kicked and recommend. nt

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:56 AM

8. Agree that GOP and Media are pushing, but please don't "whitesplain" to NAs

Warren has done many notable things that benefit the needy, but has a tin ear and terrible advisers when it comes to her ancestry.

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Response to bigbrother05 (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:52 PM

38. +1

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:07 AM

10. Imho, all she ever needed to do was acknowledge the mistake and move on. Hopefully, Ms Warren

has done that now. Sorry to see that some of yall still don't seem to understand what the problem was. Look up cultural misappropriation - it's a thing. "Canard," seriously? There are actual verified written records showing she claimed minority status..... in the past. Just own it, and move on.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:15 AM

11. There is some disagreement from Native Americans

Last edited Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)

At least regarding the DNA testing.

Have to wonder after Trump's weekend tweet about Warren, using his usual name for her, and the TRAILS "joke" to which Junior commented "Savage!" and laughing emojis with tears - has there been any condemnation of that yet?


https://www.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-media-blowing-coverage-elizabeth-104507922.html

Others lamented that it feels as though Warren’s personal journey of self-discovery is being weaponized against Native identity and Native people.

“She merely claims to have Native ancestry, as do millions of others like her,” said Ruth Hopkins, a Dakota/Lakota Sioux writer and co-founder of Last Real Indians, a news site focused on tribal issues. “Her claim is valid, and she and those like her have the ability to be powerful allies for Native nations struggling to deal with real-life problems stemming from colonization, imposed poverty, treaty breaches, forced assimilation and attempted genocide.”


“The thing that really, really got me about these articles is that the emphasis is on all of the outrage on behalf of Native Americans, but they’re not talking to any Native Americans about it. At all,” said Crystal Echo Hawk, a member of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and the CEO and president of Echo Hawk Consulting.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:55 AM

14. This Thread Has Mostly Ignored the Bigger Picture

This thread has mostly ignored the bigger picture: Elizabeth Warren’s candidacy is the biggest threat to the top 1% and to Trump. While Trump is a fake populist, she is the real deal. She is able to explain and reflect just how about 40% of the people in this country have been struggling economically for about 40 years and it’s been getting worse.

Since the MSM and Commenters can’t find anything of substance to criticize her for, they are dredging up this issue which she has already addressed. They want to keep you busy with the Native American issue so her other ideas never get discussed. Let’s get back on topic here!!!! And before you criticize me our daughter worked for three years as a resident doctor at a Native American run health clinic, so save your breath. Warren is all about helping the little guy and that really scares those at the top.

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Response to McKim (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:52 AM

23. I agree. It's the typical distraction from the issues that really matter.

The real travesty is poverty. Warren speaks directly to that problem.

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Response to McKim (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:57 AM

31. +1

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:59 AM

16. Kick

thanks!

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:13 AM

18. Membership in the Cherokee tribe is based on the Dawes Rolls.

The Dawes Roll (1894-1907) was the only census taken where one had to declare one's degree of tribal blood. It facilitated the confiscation of over 800M acres of Indigenous land. If you have an ancestor (and can prove it) whose name appears on those rolls, then you are eligible to join the Cherokee tribe. Period.

Many families did not sign up, and they were known as Dawes Resisters. Why would they not sign up for 'free land'? Because the land already belonged to them! Acreage had already been set aside (they had no choice in the selection of where) for them as long as the sun will shine. Other reasons: Distrust of the Federal Government; families who could 'pass for white' denied Native ancestry; families who were intermixed with blacks knew they would be separated out as Freedmen whether they were born free or not.

So there are lots of descendants who have stories like that of Elizabeth Warren.

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Response to yellerpup (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:42 AM

30. Yes, this is so true.

The Cherokee Nation does not make blood quantum a requirement for membership. My adopted daughter is 1/64 Cherokee and a registered member of the Cherokee Nation because a maternal ancestor's name appeared on the Dawes Roll decades ago. Her children, therefore are also tribal members even though they have only 1/128 degree of Indian Blood. All are blond with blue eyes like Elizabeth Warren. If Chief Baker accepted her apology, this so called controversy should be over. It probably will not be if the RWNJ have their way. Elizabeth Warren is a big threat to them with her tax policies and advocacy for the working class.

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Response to Desert grandma (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:00 PM

32. I'm living in the Cherokee Nation for the first time in 40 years.

Practically everyone in Oklahoma has a relative and a history like Elizabeth Warren.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:14 AM

19. Remember Emails in 2016? Welcome to the 2020 Election Scandal!

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:33 AM

20. Another rightwing "Controversy" made up to undermine another great Democratic leader

She filled out the form honestly the way she believed at the time, she apologized for it. She should now tell MSM & their RW handlers to go F' themselves when they bring it up, talk about what really matters, her values, her ideas to make America truly great again.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:42 AM

21. Make her a member of all nations. End of story

Do It......

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:48 AM

22. Some one, please ask Sharice Davis

what she thinks of it. I'll go with that.

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:57 AM

24. Lesser known aspect of this:

Most of the rumors and smears against Warren come from a right wing Professor/blogger named William Jacobson. Ever since Elizabeth Warren came on scene as a Senator in 2012 he's made it his mission to smear her in every way possible. He runs the wingnut blog "Legal Insurrection".

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:00 AM

25. MSM will saddle each candidate with some made up controversy

so they don't have to talk about what really matters like healthcare, jobs, pay, environment, ect...

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:03 AM

26. I don't see her as a champion, but even so, this whole non-issue is ridiculous

This is a made-up controversy that has exactly zero to do with a presidential campaign (or should, anyway).

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:11 AM

27. I've Heard Many Versions of That Old Native American Saying

That money cannot be eaten. I've often felt that we should simply turn over the country to the Native Americans, because the white man has failed so miserably in his stewardship of the land and the people. Another thing that really tugged at my intuitive heart strings was a video that I saw up on YouTube, with Floyd Red Crow Westerman saying, "My elders told me that the United States would come, and the United States would go. Is Donald Trump, who epitomizes and embodies all the worst qualities of the dominant white culture in the United States, be the vehicle for the United States' demise? The whole Pocahontas thing - heck, racial and ethnic slurs are Donald Trump's stock in trade - in case you didn't know already. I leave you with a link to the Red Crow video:

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:33 AM

29. It's nice that so many white people are prepared to forgive her on behalf of Native Americans (n/t)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:09 PM

36. Even better and more important that Native Americans appreciate her

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Response to NCChomskyan (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:04 PM

35. K&R

Thank you. Very eloquent.

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