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Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:03 AM

Northam opponents will not like this New York Times article

At a time when a lot of white parents sought to put their children in schools separated from black people, Northam’s parents decided to do the opposite: put him in public school. And he got along just fine:

In a region where black and white people largely lived in different communities, Ralph Northam hung around black neighborhoods with black friends. He was one of two white players on the high school basketball team in 1977, his senior year. His class had 73 students — 37 black, 36 white.


A black childhood friend says:
“We were chasing basketballs, baseballs. We were fishing. We were crabbing. We didn’t see race.”


He helped sick African-Americans.
Mr. Northam commuted 60 miles each way to treat the children at the center, including many from African-American, Latino or Haitian families who worked on the region’s farms or in its chicken processing plants.

One time and African-American friend and his wife had a stillborn baby. Northam comforted them:
Mr. Bailey retains a vivid memory from 1988, when his wife, Monica, was in Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, recovering from having delivered a stillborn child. “As God would have it, Ralph was doing a rotation at Walter Reed, and he found us and spent time,” Mr. Bailey, now a high school administrator, recalled.


So let’s look at his mistakes as well as the good relationship he has had with African-Americans.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/10/us/ralph-northam-virginia-governor.html

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Reply Northam opponents will not like this New York Times article (Original post)
Yosemito Feb 11 OP
Sneederbunk Feb 11 #1
Vogon_Glory Feb 11 #2
Ferrets are Cool Feb 11 #4
anti-repub Feb 11 #8
ProfessorPlum Feb 11 #10
Liberty Belle Feb 11 #22
LakeSuperiorView Feb 11 #28
Blue_true Feb 11 #32
oldsoftie Feb 11 #36
redstateblues Feb 11 #42
Me. Feb 11 #70
whopis01 Feb 12 #88
Me. Feb 12 #91
whopis01 Feb 12 #93
Scruffy1 Feb 12 #92
calimary Feb 11 #27
Vogon_Glory Feb 11 #30
democratisphere Feb 11 #3
2naSalit Feb 11 #6
PatSeg Feb 11 #18
WheelWalker Feb 11 #37
philly_bob Feb 11 #57
pazzyanne Feb 11 #63
pazzyanne Feb 11 #62
democratisphere Feb 11 #66
pazzyanne Feb 12 #85
Achilleaze Feb 11 #5
2naSalit Feb 11 #7
mr_lebowski Feb 11 #9
awesomerwb1 Feb 11 #12
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Feb 11 #14
mr_lebowski Feb 11 #17
dalton99a Feb 12 #81
Pacifist Patriot Feb 12 #90
pandr32 Feb 11 #24
wishstar Feb 11 #58
groundloop Feb 11 #68
appalachiablue Feb 11 #65
hueymahl Feb 11 #11
PatSeg Feb 11 #20
Beartracks Feb 11 #73
PatSeg Feb 11 #74
angrychair Feb 11 #21
Eko Feb 11 #48
angrychair Feb 11 #67
Eko Feb 11 #69
angrychair Feb 11 #71
Eko Feb 11 #72
angrychair Feb 11 #75
Eko Feb 11 #79
angrychair Feb 12 #80
Eko Feb 12 #82
angrychair Feb 12 #84
Eko Feb 12 #86
Eko Feb 12 #87
Eko Feb 12 #83
whopis01 Feb 12 #89
maddiemom Feb 11 #50
hueymahl Feb 11 #53
Charlotte Little Feb 11 #54
Blue_true Feb 11 #34
McCamy Taylor Feb 12 #95
SammyWinstonJack Feb 11 #13
Nancy Waterman Feb 11 #15
SunSeeker Feb 11 #16
Hortensis Feb 11 #19
DallasNE Feb 11 #23
Blue_true Feb 11 #35
pdsimdars Feb 11 #25
spooky3 Feb 11 #44
RAAD2 Feb 11 #26
Empowerer Feb 12 #97
EffieBlack Feb 11 #29
DallasNE Feb 11 #40
Blue_true Feb 11 #41
Afromania Feb 11 #52
bitterross Feb 11 #77
frazzled Feb 11 #31
CanonRay Feb 11 #33
apnu Feb 11 #38
spooky3 Feb 11 #45
LanternWaste Feb 11 #59
Blue_true Feb 11 #47
Ilsa Feb 11 #56
FiveGoodMen Feb 11 #61
TheCowsCameHome Feb 11 #39
dlk Feb 11 #43
Blue_true Feb 11 #49
wellst0nev0ter Feb 11 #46
underpants Feb 11 #51
bobnicewander Feb 11 #55
kwassa Feb 11 #60
CTAtheist Feb 11 #64
bitterross Feb 11 #76
Clash City Rocker Feb 11 #78
McCamy Taylor Feb 12 #94
McCamy Taylor Feb 12 #96

Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:09 AM

1. But, but . . .

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:11 AM

2. I Know You Did Your Best, BUT

But you can’t convince the self-appointed keepers of the flame of political purity around here with facts and logic, any more than you can convince a herd of Trumpkins that their idol is neither truthful nor has their best interests at heart.

But thank you for trying.

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Response to Vogon_Glory (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:18 AM

4. +1

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Response to Vogon_Glory (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:37 AM

8. re democrats are better

Those who say democrats are "better" than republicans because democrats do not forgive past misdeeds are way off target. It is not "better" to turn a state over to racists and misogynists. It is smacks of treason to the voters who voted for democrats rather than the racist republicans.

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Response to anti-repub (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:43 AM

10. I tried to make this point the other day

but I think you did a better job articulating it

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Response to anti-repub (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:35 AM

22. Exactly. The VOTERS should decide this, not anyone else.

Voters can vote him out next time if they don't like what he does, or launch a recall if they feel this is so critical that it can't wait.

If we start throwing everyone out for stupid things they did in high school or college, the halls of Congress and state legislatures would be pretty empty.

If he had a pattern of racist actions other than one blackface incident in college, that would be different. But he seems to have a lifetime of just the opposite, which would make him better than any Republican who might replace him.

Keep him until his term runs out, as better than the Republican alternative, and then let voters judge him on the totality of his record next election.

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Response to Liberty Belle (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:53 AM

28. One clarification, the voters of Virginia.

 

There are DUers that delight in messing with politics in states where they can't vote.

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Response to Liberty Belle (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:09 PM

32. The Virginia governor gets only one term. nt

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Response to Liberty Belle (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:27 PM

36. Well, he just called slaves "indentured servants" in a Sunday interview. Thats pretty stupid.

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Response to oldsoftie (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:42 PM

42. Quel horreur!

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Response to oldsoftie (Reply #36)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:40 PM

70. Except ...He Was Basically Correct

“In 1619 the first black Africans came to Virginia. With no slave laws in place, they were initially treated as indentured servants, and given the same opportunities for freedom dues as whites. However, slave laws were soon passed – in Massachusetts in 1641 and Virginia in 1661 –and any small freedoms that might have existed for blacks were taken away.

As demands for labor grew, so did the cost of indentured servants. Many landowners also felt threatened by newly freed servants demand for land. The colonial elite realized the problems of indentured servitude. Landowners turned to African slaves as a more profitable and ever-renewable source of labor and the shift from indentured servants to racial slavery had begun.”

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211808277#post5

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Response to Me. (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:42 AM

88. Except ... that is basically incorrect.

I understand that between 1619 and 1661, there was no slavery, only indentured servitude in Virginia. Some blacks were even able to gain their freedom through this system.

However, to refer to their condition as anything but slavery is a terrible mistake.

The “indenture” part of indentured servant refers to a contract. A contract which the servant signed in order to trade their freedom for some sort of benefit. Many did this to pay for their passage to the New World.

This was not the case with the Africans who were brought over. They were captured against their will, brought to the new world, and then sold as indentured servants. It was not an agreement that they entered into willingly. Nor did they receive any benefit from this agreement.

If an innocent person is captured, taken against their will to a new land and forced to work then they are a slave. Even if that slavery has and end date and conditions, they are still a slave.

The article you quote says “In 1619 the first black Africans came Virginia.” While technically correct, it would be far more accurate to say that they were brought to Virginia. If someone is arrested and held, you would never say “he came to jail”. You would say “he was taken to jail”.

I don’t think Northam saying “indentured servant” was any horrible action. I believe he used this term because earlier he had said “slaves” and was told that was incorrect and they were “indentured servants”. I don’t think he meant harm or disrespect in his usage of the term.

What I find offensive about this whole thing is the nitpicking and squabbling over terms, and the use of terms, that while being technically correct, paint a false image.

The bottom line is that if an innocent person is captured, bought and sold, and forced to serve against their will, then that person is a slave.

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Response to whopis01 (Reply #88)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:46 AM

91. AS You Say...Technically Correct

and he was.

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Response to Me. (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:15 PM

93. Yes. With all that implies.

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Response to Liberty Belle (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:54 AM

92. My feelings exactly.

Politics in America has become a media feeding frenzy. I think this issue has been largely blown out of proportion because it's been a slow news month. So a sitting governor did something of questionable taste many years ago while in college. Big deal. My own father played occasionally as a back up catcher in the Negro League even though he wasn't African American. The teams didn't carry a back up catcher and he would sometimes be called to fill in if the catcher on either team was injured. He had been coached and mentored by Negro League players since he was boy. He told me he put a little burnt cork on his face and pulled on his mask. This doesn't make a man who fought racism and bigotry his whole life a racist. I also believe that none of us are entirely free from racism. It's part of our culture and unavoidable. We don't deal with this by pretending we are perfect but by self examination and trying to do better. I am not a perfect person and don't expect that of other people including politicians.

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Response to anti-repub (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:52 AM

27. There is that.

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Response to anti-repub (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:59 AM

30. That NY Times article was quite illuminating.

A pity that the keepers of the flame are not only unwilling to examine contrary opinion, but they’re unwilling to admit that maybe, just maybe, they’ve been the marks in Breitbarters’ games of rope-a-dope.

Or are you still a member of that crowd. That’s still celebrating the triumph of principle over other Democrats’ squishy pragmatism in States like Wisconsin, Michigan, etc back in 2016 (And thus handing those states’ electoral votes over to Donald Trump)?

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:12 AM

3. This is really what it is all about.

It is all about what Ralph Northam does with his support and interactions with the black community. This man is more like a Saint. Why would anyone want to destroy a person like Ralph Northam or Al Franken by running them out of office.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:24 AM

6. +!

This is one of the reasons that the trolls have so much success.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:25 AM

18. Every day we talk about Ralph Northam and Virginia

politics, its time we're not talking about Trump, Russia, Saudi Arabia, corruption, etc. The right wants this diversion. They started it and they fueled it. They know how to push our buttons and they are good at it.

Let the Virginian voters decide what they want. Though I find what Northam did 30 years ago appalling, this scandal could make him a better leader at a time when we need racial healing. If his regrets are not sincere, he won't survive. If they are, the people of Virginia could truly benefit.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:31 PM

37. Agree. 100%.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 03:34 PM

57. Agreed. It's a distraction! /nt

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 06:35 PM

63. +100

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 06:34 PM

62. "Why would anyone want to destroy a person like Ralph Northam or Al Franken,

… by running them out of office."

That's a question that I ask quite often!


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Response to pazzyanne (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:35 PM

66. It was a GOP hit job driven by a mob mentality by some Democrats and

some members of the Democratic leadership.
Smearing the installed Democratic Hierarchy in VA might allow the GOP to retake control of the top positions in VA.
This kind of activity will continue to be used by the GOP going forward and we must not continue to throw Democrats under the bus by a rush to judgment without due process and investigations of alleged accusations. The same goes for the situation with Al Franken.

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Response to democratisphere (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:51 AM

85. And not just Al Franken in Minnesota.

It also happened to Keith Ellison (allegations just days before the primary, which he won. After he was elected - crickets) and is now happening to Amy Klobuchar. With Amy it started before she declared. If people look at their state, it is more than likely happening to them as well.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:23 AM

5. k and r

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:24 AM

7. K&R

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:41 AM

9. Y'all said I was crazy last Saturday when I said 'Coonman' could well mean he was close to blacks

not that he didn't like them ... on the day that news came out ...

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:49 AM

12. Your post makes sense.

Hope you're right.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:15 AM

14. There was a comment on an article in the WA Po

That said coonman was another way of saying n***** lover in VMI speak. Don't know whether that's true or not.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:24 AM

17. This easily makes more sense as an explanation, given that environment (VA in the 70/80 era)

than 'he goes around calling black folks c**n all the time' ... or whatever the people that were just SURE that this 'nickname' was evidence he must be a racist ... believed was the explanation for the nickname.

IMHO.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:06 AM

81. +1

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:35 AM

90. I can tell you for a fact it was true at VMI in 1987.

I'm a W&L alum (next door to VMI - campuses literally adjacent). Had more than our fair share of racist assholes at W&L too. Heck, we had at least one fraternity that prided themselves on it. Their annual cotillion was in full confederate regalia. I dated a couple of cadets. From what I can tell, their diversity problem extended well beyond Northam's and my time in Lexington.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:39 AM

24. Exactly

He was being teased.

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 03:55 PM

58. Classmates used the nickname knowing he had grown up and attended high school with many blacks

My hunch is that both the nickname and the blackface/KKK pic on his page were not his idea or his choices, but were a form of teasing him by classmates who knew about his history in his integrated community and school.

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Response to wishstar (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:13 PM

68. You very well may be correct... but Northam didn't do himself any favors with his bumbled apology

It would have been far better had he come out immediately and said "yes, I was in that photo and I'm ashamed......"

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:27 PM

65. Could be. Or 'waterman' which is apt for the area he's from-

rural, water, seacoastal, fishermen all around the Chesapeake Bay and Delmarva.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:49 AM

11. I think a lot of people are so passionate about a single issue, it clouds their judgement

It is hard for them to see the forest for the trees, to use a well-worn saying.

It's not that they are bad people or necessarily foolish, its that some issues become so all-incompassing, they can't put it into perspective with the rest of the important issues out there. Race is one of these, as is gender, sexual orientation, abortion, the environment, just to name a few.

Thanks for posting this story. Maybe with the passage of time, the bright passion many feel about Northam will be tempered some so more rational dialogue can come forth that treats him as a full person, not just someone who did something objectionable a long time ago.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:30 AM

20. I agree

Well said. Lets see how the people of Virginia feel about this and how Northam as governor will serve the African American community. Every time the right pushes our buttons, we need to stop and take a breath before we react. There is usually a much bigger picture to see.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:03 PM

73. Agreed. When these past mistakes suddenly pop up, it's best to think: "Why now?"

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #73)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:28 PM

74. And why three at the same time

in the same administration? Some might call it a coincidence, but republican operatives are calling it a trifecta! I'm sure there's a lot of backslapping in GOP world right now and in the meantime, they are digging for more dirt on other Democrats and if they can't find any, they'll make some up. This is what they do and we need to be prepared.



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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:34 AM

21. Could not disagree more

“did something objectionable a long time ago.”

Objectionable” is saying something crude or off the cuff.

Choosing this picture, in which one person is dressing in a way to mock black people (black face) while standing next a person dressed as a domestic terrorist that killed and tortured black people, to be in his yearbook is far more than “objectionable”. It’s disturbing.

He was not a child, he was in his mid-20s in medical school.

Most importantly he is lying about it. First he said it was him. Than he said it wasn’t. He choose that picture. He. Is. Lying.

In a recent interview he referred to slaves as “indentured servants”. Actually stumbled over the description.

In that same interview he implied that his black Lt. Governor may need to resign or be impeached.
Interesting. He can stay. His white AG can stay. But the black guy may need to go. Interesting.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:53 PM

48. Wow.

You dont know he is lying about it. It is what you think but you dont know.
As for the indentured servants phrase, even historians ave different views on it. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/02/08/1619-african-arrival-virginia/2740468002/
As for your last claim here is what he said. "If these accusations are determined to be true, I don't think he's going to have any other option but to resign."

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Response to Eko (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:45 PM

67. No, they. Were. Slaves.

They were brought here as slaves. Indentured means “a contract by which a person, as an apprentice, is bound to service”.
There was no fucking contract with them and they sure as hell were not brought here to be “apprentices”.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/indentured

I was in Germany recently. They, the German people, really take to heart the crimes of their past.
They have these raised stones in front of every home in which a Jewish person lived and was taken and murdered. They call them Stumbling Stones. They are a nice metal plate, the size of a sidewalk brick. They have a holiday in which all the children are out of school but they are not on vacation or home playing video games. They go out into their town and they clean and polish those Stumbling Stones in remembrance, so that no one ever forgets. They have a moment in a Berlin called “Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe” it’s huge. So no one forgets.

No wordsmithing or parsing of terms. They murdered people. They take full responsibility.

We could learn something from that example.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:34 PM

69. Ok, you're right.

Even though historians aren't sure you. are. correct.
Feel better now?
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #69)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:16 PM

71. Sure about what?!?

That they came over here willingly? It was all a misunderstanding?!? “Sorry, you weren’t slaves, you just misunderstood”.

Wow.


“Historians” will claim the the 6 million Jews were not murdered during WWII.

That I’m actually debating if slaves were actually slaves with someone on DU is blowing my mind.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #71)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:39 PM

72. Ok.

Apparently you cant or wont be open to the idea that they could have been treated as indentured servants despite some evidence that they were. I agree that at the end of the day they weren't free at all. I don't know of many modern day historians that will claim the 6 million Jews were not murdered in WW2, if you do feel free to show it but that has noting to do with our discussion.
What you don't get is that you are not debating with me if slaves were actually slaves, in that case you are strawmaning me. I never said that at all did I? What did I say? oh yeah, "As for the indentured servants phrase, even historians have different views on it." I find it troublesome that something that is not actually happening is blowing your mind.
Thanks,
Eko.
On edit, I think you could stand being less angry. It would help with discussions.

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Response to Eko (Reply #72)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:35 PM

75. Let's be clear

The point is the mind-set that apologizes for a person being a racist.

Slaves were never slaves willingly. It’s not only intellectually disingenuous but ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
My opinion, for what it’s worth, is to never suggest to a person of color that their ancestors were not slaves and doing it willingly. I would suspect their family history has a very different perspective.

More importantly, Northam initially said it was him and then later said it was not. Those pictures are chosen by the student. One of those people is dressed as a domestic terrorist. One of them is him. He lied about it.




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Response to angrychair (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:22 PM

79. So why are you arguing with me?

I never apologized for his actions at all. I never said slaves were slaves willingly. In fact, there were indentured servants who were not willing at all. "Contract labour has been based upon conditions of poverty and upon political and religious intolerance, and it is often expressed in penal codes. Historically, deception, kidnapping, and coercion have been used to obtain contract labourers, with contractual terms often reflecting the disadvantageous position of the labourer. Contract labour still carries implications of compulsion and unfairness, and conditions can approach slavery in their severity." https://www.britannica.com/topic/contract-labor#ref172919
"An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party. Indenturees usually enter into an indenture for a specific payment or other benefit, or to meet a legal obligation, such as debt bondage. On completion of the contract, indentured servants were given their freedom, and occasionally plots of land." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude

Your last three sentences have nothing to do with the conversation we are having. But they are kinda telling. History is history, no matter what you want to believe and its not always clear cut. Your clear cut problem is thinking that indentured servants were always willing when clearly it was not so.
Thanks,
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:02 AM

80. Your links are garbage

“On completion of the contract, indentured servants were given their freedom, and occasionally plots of land”

Southern slaves were given their freedom when their “contracts” were up?!?

I’m done here. Please never speak directly at me again.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:10 AM

82. Yup,

"Some of the early Africans, like Anthony and Mary Johnson, who arrived in 1621 and 1622, respectively, amassed hundreds of acres of land and owned slaves themselves. Some won their freedom in court; others, like John Punch, were sentenced to permanent servitude for daring to run away." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/02/08/1619-african-arrival-virginia/2740468002/

Yes, some were. Obviously you didn't read the first link I provided. Whatever, history be damned you are going to think that you know everything while I will see that sometimes its not so cut and dried.

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Response to Eko (Reply #82)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:49 AM

84. I asked politely

Please do not talk to directly ever again.

Anyone that takes the exception and implies it justifies the rule will justify anything

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Response to angrychair (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:03 AM

86. Oh yeah,

I justified all kinds of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, like what? Give me a break. Maybe jump off your high horse of non-history knowing self and have a conversation where you don't straw man someone repeatedly and we can have a conversation. What are you going to do? Put me on ignore? Too funny. Go ahead, I don't think I will miss the conversation of someone who ignores what history says. By all means and good riddance, I certainly wont miss the ignorant conversations you put forth. (and by ignorant I mean someone who is not only unknowing of history but unwilling to know it.)
Thanks, have a nice day!
Eko.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:03 AM

87. Its a free world angry person.

eom

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Response to angrychair (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:13 AM

83. I do have to say its amazing how many times history has shown that what you think

is not correct for someone with so much certainty that they are.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:02 AM

89. You can't win arguing against this mentality

Anyone who thinks an innocent person who was captured, taken across the world against their will, and forced to serve is anything but a slave is either an idiot or maliciously trying to rewrite history.


As you pointed out earlier - the attitude is that the black Lt. Governor has to, but the Governor and AG can stay.

It is actually even worse than that now.

You have the Governor with the pictures of blackface and klan robes on his medical school yearbook page.

You have the AG who was in blackface in the picture.

So the question should be asked, who the hell would even let this into a yearbook? Well now we find out that the Senate Majority Leader (Tommy Norment) was a yearbook editor at the Virginia Military Institute and helped oversee yearbooks filled with pics of students in blackface. And of course this is at the same school attended by Ralph Northam.

But the black Lt. Governor has got to go.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:54 PM

50. Oh, calm down.

In fact, I would find "objectionable" stronger than "disturbing," BTW. Talk about grasping for straws. I can remember "blackface" being used in fund-raising "minstrel shows," being very common in the Fifties and well into the Sixties in the North: doing the old Al Jolsen thing. Not to make it right, but attitudes were different then than in the Eighties. I DO find that questionable. Nonetheless, the Democrats are such suckers when it comes to Republican "rat fucking." A joke picture destroys Al Franken's political career and suddenly other women make accusations that are unprovable. That really did it for me. The over-all career of a politician should have weightier consideration than all these tempests blowing up for Democratic politicians. Meanwhile we have a Republican "president" in office with outrageous behavior and comments right on the public record. Wise up holier-than-thou Democrats. How much longer can you keep falling for this stuff?

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Response to angrychair (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:12 PM

53. I respect your passion about this issue

I really do.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:15 PM

54. You do realize that the mentality here in this thread

will not tolerate your unwillingness to sing Kumbaya for and with Northam, right?

Never mind that Northam referred to slaves as indentured servants. He played with the black kids in his neighborhood, don't ya know! And never mind that he was nicknamed "Coonman" - it was just him being teased for loving black people. Although, the real meaning of coonman is exactly the opposite: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Coonman

It's really sad to watch the pretzel twisting and excuses. But here we are.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:19 PM

34. I agree. The person who most led the Northam is a bad person charge is a DUER who I generally

admire for insightful posts. I guess all of us have our hot button issues that can cloud our judgement.

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Response to hueymahl (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:20 PM

95. Disagree. This is an issue about which we must be passionate or our country will not change.

Those who are applying political pressure on Northam are doing a good thing.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:06 AM

13. K&R

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:16 AM

15. Thank you

Thank you for posting this. We are way to quick to judge.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:19 AM

16. K & R

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:30 AM

19. NO. Northam's REAL OPPONENTS are Republicans and their agents

like the Big League Politics group who are trying to take out a string of 3 Democrats, one of wHom is black of course.

POC of course really need Northram's exposure to not just be ignored as if it didn't matter.

Ideas of what is appropriate consequence, though, vary widely as with everyone else. Although the call came from all directions immediately for resignation, from what I've read since a lot of people want just and reasonable consequences for his behavior 50 years ago, whatever those are, and/or the right responses from him.

Also, Virginia's AA voted overwhelmingly for him, and many are disappointed in him, some even feeling he should resign, but that doesn't turn voters into "opponents." They are the people.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:37 AM

23. I Waited For Rev. William Barber To Weigh In

I like his way of thinking and basically he framed it as a matter for redemption and he cited the case of Robert Byrd. The article required a pay subscription so I didn't see his conclusion but I presume he called for giving Northam a chance at redemption.

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:22 PM

35. Yes, Reverind Barber did call for a chance for redemption.

He also pointed out some of Northam's known good works on behave of his constituents of color.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:47 AM

25. It's what I have been trying to scream at these stupid networks

He has a long, GREAT record and the media, including media on the left can't help themselves but go headlong into the mindless, fact free feeding frenzy. Recent poll show that a majority of African-Americans in Virginia don't want him to resign. It's the fact free, largely white media who beat the drums. . . . .

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Response to pdsimdars (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:44 PM

44. Agree. The polls showed that Republicans had much

Higher support for him to resign than did black constituents, yet another poll showed 50% of white Republicans saw nothing wrong with “blackface.”

Highly principled folks, they are.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:50 AM

26. A Modern Day Lyn*****

 

I just assumed Governor Northam had changed. Today we found out he never really was a racist.

The media won't like that narrative.

No outrage to be created.

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Response to RAAD2 (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:52 PM

97. So, after growing up around blacks and being "never really a racist" Northam then put on blackface

and yukked it up with his KKK-garbed buddies (a real hoot those guys!).

I don't know what kind of people you hang around, but I would like to think that none of my friends, after spending their formative years with me and people who look like me, would then as adults put on blackface and joke about the KKK. if they did, I certainly wouldn't give him a pass just because they hung around me as a kid. That would actually make them more culpable for their behavior in my eyes because they damn sure should have known better.

I mean, really. If you want to give him credit for "not really bring racist" because he hung out with black people as a kid, how do you explain his subsequent behavior? Shouldn't he, given his background, known better?

it seems like no matter what he did, some people are going to give him a pass. First he was excused from his racist behavior because he supposedly grew up in a racist environment. Now he's getting excused for his racist behavior because he DIDN'T grow up in a racist environment.

Give me a break.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:55 AM

29. I thought Northam was supposed to get a pass because he was an innocent product of a racist culture

Now he supposed to get credit for being part of the enlightened minority of Southern whites as a teenager?

Then how to explain his later behavior? Given his upbringing, shouldn’t he have known better than to around hanging out with guys in KKK uniforms when he was a grown man?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:37 PM

40. Blind Ambition?

I hear what you are saying and it is very troubling for Northam. I'm not saying that Northam is a John Dean but Dean was given an opportunity for redemption after he realized that what he was engaged in was not part of who he was or his upbringing. He did it in a very public way. Northam kept quiet but he too reversed direction. Also see my post about Rev. William Barber and his response to the situation.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:41 PM

41. I have experience in that area.

I spent my early years caught between two cultures. There is a lot of pressure to conform to each. The people that Northam knew early on were African American, he was a basketball player in high school and likely spent summer days playing pick up ball with African American friends.

His medical school days and his early days as a military officer were likely spent in an almost lily White environment. Yes, there were young officer like Colin Powell and one or two others like General Waller, but the officer core was almost pure White, and largely is that way today, if you look at class photos for military academies. My experience was that the pressure to conform to the culture that I was in was powerful, some people could not fully conform to that.

I know about being called names. My best male friend and best female friend in high school were not from my race. I got called names to my face and I found out, behind my back by members of my race because of my friendships. Did I let situations go when my friend's race was put down during that time? Yes I did because that was easier than pointing out the stupidity of disliking someone without getting to know them, but today I would be in someone's face that tried that. A person matures and their capacity to properly handle situations that they shrunk from grows.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:04 PM

52. Shhhhhh, don't upset their applecart.

he learned so much from the black people around him growing up. He liked them so very much he allowed that nonsense on his year book page.

Frankly, if he was that upstanding a citizen he'd have been on that nonsense immediately. It would be one of his "stories" he used to get the black vote. On how that thing was attached to his page and he railed against it.

whatever.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:42 PM

77. Still stuck on one picture

One picture out of a lifetime. You're just not going to consider the possibility you were wrong about him while you were busy saying he was an awful person who, as a doctor didn't treat his African American patients with the same care as white ones.

That's a real shame.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:04 PM

31. That article did change my mind about the issue when I read it this morning

It was further validated by reading this polling data from TPM this morning, in which a Washington Post poll shows a 47% to 47% split among voters about whether Northam should resign; but as Marshall says, "The underlying numbers though are even more revealing":

One key number is that Northam has higher support for staying in office among African-American residents than among white resident – 58% to 37% say he should remain in office. All told, those are numbers that must greatly hearten Northam and his political advisors. To a degree, that’s probably as much a measure of the partisan breakdown as the racial once since the state’s African-American population is overwhelmingly Democratic. Overall, 40% of Democrats say he should step down while 57% say he should not. Again, for an elected Democrat, those are not numbers that make you feel like you have no choice but to resign.

Republicans want Northam to step down by a 56% to 42% margin and independents favor resignation by a thin 47% to 43% margin. To understand that number it’s always important to remember that, despite what many assume, identifying as an independent does not equate with between at the ideological center. In recent years, it’s an identification that usually leans to the right.

One number that is clearly buoying Northam is the answer to this question: “Do you think the Northam’s yearbook photo is (an isolated incident) or is it (a sign of broader racial prejudice in his life)?” Overall, 50% say isolated incident and 34% say it’s a sign of racial prejudice. Notably, African-Americans are more evenly divided on this point. 48% says isolated incident, 43% say it’s a sign of a broader racial prejudice.


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/not-going-anywhere

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:16 PM

33. If 58% of Black Virginians say let him stay

I say their voice counts. Not mine. First post in a long, long time.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:33 PM

38. If he's such a saint, why would he say "intentured servants" instead of "slaves"

See DU discussion on this here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211805814

This is really bad. If the guy makes this mistake in his PR blitz to fix his career, there's a disconnect for us and him.

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Response to apnu (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:47 PM

45. As was pointed out in threads here at DU,

He used the term correctly in his statement. Start be checking out Wikipedia and the history of indentured servitude in VA, which preceded slavery by several decades.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 04:13 PM

59. Which is of course, cherry-picking a term

Which is of course, cherry-picking a term that, while correct for a very specific and limited sub-set of history, does not allow for the greater context.

Much as 'agricultural mono-culture' is accurate in general when referring to the causes of famine that hit Ireland, but is in fact, not a valid descriptor as there were in fact, other crops as well.

But I get it... anything and everything possible to pretend slavery was anything other than what it was will come into play when political agendas take a priority than historicity.

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Response to apnu (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:51 PM

47. His reference was to when the country first formed.

The people who would eventually become slaves were "indentured" at that time . They worked in servitude for a number of years to gain their freedom. Unlike Whites that worked as indentured servants, Blacks did not have any debts, they were indentured as a result of being forcibly brought from their homelands and being sold into indentured servitude, they worked to repay their master for buying them. Trully a screwed up system, but it was not slavery.

Indentured servitude has a long history through time and was used from the earliest recorded times.

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Response to apnu (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:43 PM

56. Whites, especially children who lost

One or both parents, especially crossing the Atlantic, were frequently indentured until they were in their mid-teens. Adults were indentured as payment for their fare. The main thing about being indentured is that there was usually a term or a price set ffor the servitude. Freedom was an option, if affordable.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #56)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 04:18 PM

61. And Northam was talking about them?

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:35 PM

39. Wipe the slate clean.

Move forward.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:43 PM

43. Northam's Action, Signing Medicaid Expansion into Law, Will Save Many Lives

The NYT article brings into focus the fact that Northam's situation is not cut and dried but must be taken in the context of his upbringing and social environment of that time period. No one is suggesting that he be given a pass nor is anyone suggesting that wearing blackface, under any circumstances, is ever acceptable. However, in today's scorched earth political environment, with Republicans' consistent weaponizing of Democrat's values against them at every turn, we should keep in mind the timing of the top three Democrats in Virginia facing scandals, and being asked to step down -- at the EXACT SAME TIME. These events did not happen in a vacuum and as Malcolm Nance has often said, "coincidences take a lot of coordination." I believe we should give Northam a chance to demonstrate his commitment to addressing the many longstanding issues of racism in Virginia and I don't believe his prior behavior is sufficient cause to overturn an election. Make no mistake, our democracy is under assault. However, I believe we can protect it and still combat institutionalized racism at the same time.

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Response to dlk (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:53 PM

49. He provided free or low cost medical care to POC well before he got into politics.

The blackface incident is not a good one, but his life's record is pretty solid on race.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:50 PM

46. The whole article is literally the "black friends" cover

How many bingos did we get today?



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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 12:58 PM

51. The Eastern Shore is its only world

A lot of farming and fishing. Now lots of chicken houses.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 01:43 PM

55. My post asked for due diligence



Quote of my post "To Clarify" (Reply #99) in response to a post on Tue, Feb 5, 2019, 08:29 AM, in the thread "This whole blackface on Northam is really dividing and conquering us on DU and other progressive" referring to an earlier post by me suggesting that an investigation of Northam's entire life be made before judgements were made. My earlier post referenced: "What can, and I think should, be done in an effort to elucidate a person's leanings regarding race is to discover their words, and most importantly, their actions on the subject by researching their entire lives as much as possible.".

"My post asked for due diligence, an investigation, to be done. I did not condone the behavior by those in the picture. I hope you understand the difference."




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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 04:16 PM

60. 58% of black Virginians want him to stay in office ...

per the Washington Post poll. More blacks than whites want him to stay.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:21 PM

64. It's not possible for a person to be different IRL than a picture implies they are

/sarcasm

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:37 PM

76. But, but, his e-mails... I mean that one single picture

from 30 years ago.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:45 PM

78. "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black"

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone has told me that. And pretty much all of them were racist.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:18 PM

94. Sen Robert Byrd was in the KKK. He went on to become one of the nation's most liberal politicians.

Northam simply needs to spend every waking moment of his tenure embracing the cause of equality and justice for all. Eventually, people will see that he has reformed. The prodigal son is a popular story in this country.

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Response to Yosemito (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:22 PM

96. And "segregation now segregation forever" George Wallace eventually denounced segregation.

If Wallace could change anyone can change.

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