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Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:17 PM

"Anti-semitic tropes"

From what I see, this basically means if active antisemites use a word, a phrase or a line or argumentation in their smears, then anyone else who utilizes those elements in specifically criticizing Israel, even if its unwittingly and outside the context of the entire Jewish population, they will be guilty of antisemitism by association.

And since antisemites use any argument they can get their hands on to criticize Jews and Israel, that means honest critics of Israel, like Ilhan Omar, are pretty much boxed in, isn't that right?

Is it possible to have an adult conversation about Israeli conduct anymore?

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Reply "Anti-semitic tropes" (Original post)
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 OP
OnDoutside Feb 2019 #1
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #2
MicaelS Feb 2019 #3
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #4
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #8
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #9
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #10
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #12
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #16
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #17
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #40
pampango Feb 2019 #58
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #37
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #39
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #41
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #42
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #43
George II Feb 2019 #24
Blue_true Feb 2019 #5
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #6
Blue_true Feb 2019 #11
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #7
Blue_true Feb 2019 #13
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #15
leftynyc Feb 2019 #20
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #21
leftynyc Feb 2019 #25
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #23
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #26
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #30
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #31
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #35
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #36
TeamPooka Feb 2019 #44
frazzled Feb 2019 #14
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #18
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #27
frazzled Feb 2019 #45
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #46
frazzled Feb 2019 #47
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #48
George II Feb 2019 #32
still_one Feb 2019 #53
leftynyc Feb 2019 #19
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #28
leftynyc Feb 2019 #50
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #51
leftynyc Feb 2019 #52
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #56
leftynyc Feb 2019 #60
Mosby Feb 2019 #71
George II Feb 2019 #34
leftynyc Feb 2019 #49
pecosbob Feb 2019 #22
wellst0nev0ter Feb 2019 #29
pecosbob Feb 2019 #33
still_one Feb 2019 #54
happybird Feb 2019 #38
still_one Feb 2019 #55
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #57
still_one Feb 2019 #59
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #62
still_one Feb 2019 #64
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #66
still_one Feb 2019 #67
leftynyc Feb 2019 #78
DeminPennswoods Feb 2019 #61
disillusioned73 Feb 2019 #63
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #65
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #68
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #69
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #70
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #72
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #73
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #74
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #75
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #76
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #79
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #80
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #81
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #82
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #83
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2019 #84
Trumpocalypse Feb 2019 #85
WeekiWater Feb 2019 #77

Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:27 PM

1. Anymore ? When was it possible ?

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:30 PM

2. I guess when Bush the First

Threatened to withhold foreign aid to Israel over settlements back in the 1990s.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:33 PM

3. It is obvious that ANY criticism of Israel or its policies...

Will be deemed as Antisemitism by someone.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:37 PM

4. Let's see if anybody calls me anti-semitic

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11807877



https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11807759



<referring to my own posts>


See how easy it is to criticize the Israeli government and its policies without invoking anti-semitic tropes.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:01 PM

8. That means you support circumcribing the debate

and punishing those who break your arbitrary rules with the broad brush of antisemitism.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:06 PM

9. I managed to criticize Israel without invoking anti-semitic tropes.

In football they have the Rooney rule. How about in politics we have the David Duke rule. When you are getting hosannas from David Duke:






you aren't in a very good place.

Progressivism and anti-semitism are mutually exclusive. The former is as antediluvian as the flood.


If the charge is I am circumscribing the debate to exclude even a whiff of anti-semitism I gladly plead guilty.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:12 PM

10. You literally just invoked guilt by association

Nobody cares what David Duke thinks. Are you even trying anymore?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:18 PM

12. I tried to be civil. Now you are patronizing me.

If you believe Jews use their money to unduly influence American foreign policy there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of notion.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:21 PM

16. And now you are applying the same smear to me

because I refuse to play your game.

I could set a watch to you.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:25 PM

17. What game?

I want to prevent the next Shoah. Call it trying to prevent the proverbial foot in the door.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:27 PM

40. Hopefully you don't think

that I'm not interested in preventing the next Holocaust. Am I reading you right?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:50 AM

58. I care what Duke thinks. I care what Trump thinks. I care what Steve King thinks.

I 'care' what conservative racists think. Ignoring what they think, say and do is not the best way to deal with their form of hatred, IMHO. Confronting them is.

On the extremely rare occasions that I find myself in agreement with one of them on a particular issue, I take a big step back and re-examine my position. If it is a case of Duke (and other racists) and me reaching the same position but for diametrically opposed lines of reasoning, I can live with that. It wouldn't make me happy but I can live with it.

If my 're-examination' leads me to see something in myself that I am not proud of (it has happened; I am flawed and have grown a lot over the years), I live and learn and hopefully grow. Perhaps that is what happened in Ilyan Omar's case. Maybe Duke's tweet jolted her. Maybe Pelosi and other Dems just applied too much pressure for her to resist. In any event, her apology ended with a commitment to fight the influence of money in politics which would include, but not be limited to, AIPAC. I'll give her credit.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:14 PM

37. Let's try this again, sans the vitriol

When it comes to other marginalized groups we make every effort not to offend them and make their burdens heavier. This strikes me as the right thing to do. Why isn't this magnanimity extended to Jews?

If any group finds something offensive why say it? Whenever a person starts talking about Jews, money and power Jews are made to feel uncomfortable, for obvious reasons, because such talk always ended badly for them.



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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:25 PM

39. That same generality does not apply to Palestians

And you know this.

Both sides of the conflict are ruled by political parties that are formed from terrorist groups. Guess which side is constantly branded as terrorists.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:28 PM

41. I have never and would never make sweeping generalizations about any group.

I can't control what others say.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:35 PM

42. But you don't condemn

the sweeping generalizations of Palestinians like you do Israelis and their right-wing apologists, do you?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:38 PM

43. There is a search function.

I call out bigotry whenever and wherever it raises its ugly head. I have even called out friends and relatives when they casually dismiss the grievances of the Palestinians.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:40 PM

24. When using the old standard anti-Semitic dog whistles, perhaps.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:50 PM

5. I think she first used the term "Jewish lobby". That was wrong.

She came back in her apology to use more precise examples. I think that AIPAC and the JDL have a number of negative aspects to them that lean toward extremism, but the ADL has long fought a good fight against societal anti-semitism.

When you say "is it about time we had an adult conversation", well, that can be said about a lot of serious race, ethnic or sex identity based problems in society. I honestly think that people are slowly working through the issues, in my county, which had rigid racial seperation at one time, people of different races make up neighborhoods now, use the same public pools, ect. I see a lot of transracial friendships today.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:53 PM

6. The JDL was a domestic terrorist organization. Are they even a thing anymore?

The ADL has spoken out against anti-Jewish and anti-Islamic bigotry.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:15 PM

11. The ADL has spoken out against all bigotry for a long time.

AIPAC is more focused on a very narrow set of objectives and don't engage the larger society.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 07:58 PM

7. Here are the tweets in question







Nowhere did she say "Jewish lobby." If we are to have an adult conversation, we should reference what is actually being said instead of constantly reading between the lines looking for the Muslim antisemite.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:20 PM

13. You make a valid point, I used a term that I got from an article that I read earlier today.

I read the tweets, she appropriately singled out AIPAC, IMO.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:21 PM

15. Ms. Omar also said Israel "hyptonized the world" and called on Allah to expose them.


?lang=en

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:33 PM

20. This wasn't in a vacuum

 

And many here are determined not to see that.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:36 PM

21. If

If a Jewish congressperson said something like that I would have started several posts lambasting him. People have search functions. I have a long history of calling out bigotry regardless of the target.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:42 PM

25. As would I

 

There is a long thread still standing about not trusting Christians. That would never be allowed for some groups. Never.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:39 PM

23. That's not actually a smoking gun

Do realize the context in which she made that tweet, yet another Israeli offensive which resulted in a laughably disproportionate number of Palestinian civilians killed.

https://www.btselem.org/download/201305_pillar_of_defense_operation_eng.pdf

Of course, 87 Palestinian civilian deaths versus 4 Israeli civilian deaths are perfectly justified because it fits in the calculus of Israel rightfully defending itself.

Other people obviously disagree with that conclusion.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:43 PM

26. Seriously, when did "hypnotize" enter

the lexicon of verboten terms? Be honest.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:50 PM

30. If

If an Arab kills an Israeli and a Jewish congressperson calls on the God of Moses to spite all Arabs he or she will not escape my rhetorical wrath. i don't have different standards for those I like and those I dislike.

What does ir mean to hypnotize the world? Do Jews have super natural powers to control the world? How does it work? If we have super natural powers why am I living in a forty year old 550 square foot apartment and not a 10,000 square foot mansion?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:56 PM

31. She said Israel hypnotizes, not Jews

Don't conflate the two.

And nowhere in that post did she call for Allah to "spite" all Jews.

This overdramatizing is getting ridiculous.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:01 PM

35. How does Israel hypnotize people?

Spite, expose.

Is this better:

If an Arab kills an Israeli and a Jewish congressperson calls on the God of Moses to expose all Arabs he or she will not escape my rhetorical wrath. i don't have different standards for those I like and those I dislike


What century are we in, calling on God to expose our enemies? It's frankly antediluvian.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:11 PM

36. If we see Israel as just another sovereign nation

outside the ethno-religious context, saying that a government-led spin campaign "hypnotizes" the perception of what was a clearly asymmetric military offensive would be as banal an observation that one can possibly make.

And also, Omar's original "hypnotize" tweet contains neither the words "spite" nor "expose." Correct me if I'm missing something.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:39 PM

44. Kevin McCarthy is Jewish?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:20 PM

14. What is it exactly that

you think was okay that about the phrase, aimed at AIPAC and its influence on Congress: “It’s about the Benjamins, baby.” Implying that the group is paying Congresspersons money.

In reality, AIPAC does not make financial contributions to either politicians or political parties.

Criticisms of groups like AIPAC or the policies of the Israeli government are fine. Dredging up conspiracies about Jewish money driving governments is definitely not okay. People died because of such calumnies.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:28 PM

18. "People died because of such calumnies."

Precisely


Dredging up conspiracies about Jewish money driving governments is definitely not okay. People died because of such calumnies.



It's right out of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Henry Ford's The International Jew

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Response to frazzled (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:46 PM

27. Members of AIPAC make contributions

Even if the organization itself does not make contributions. Let's not be dishonest about how a lobbying group works, though I highly doubt monetary contributions by Israeli-centered lobbying groups is responsible for the outsized U.S. support for Israel.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:59 PM

45. Oh, I see

Members make contributions to candidates. So that’s the Jewish money that’s controlling the government and its policies. That’s how the canny Jews control the world. Where have we heard that before?

I’m a member of Southern Poverty Law Center, which does not itself endorse or fund candidates. But I sometimes give money to candidates. And I am a member! Oh gosh, I didn’t realize my “Benjamin’s” were behind a scurrilous plot to buy off politicians. I better stop giving.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:07 PM

46. That's... a reach

Nobody is connecting AIPAC member money with Jewish money in general. That is a slur and an outrageous lie.

Also, AIPAC spent $3.5 million lobbying the government. I'll give you two guesses on how much SPLC spent on that activity.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #46)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:25 PM

47. You just said it

In your post!

No sense arguing with someone who doesn’t acknowledge what they wrote.

The ACLU (of which I used to be a member) spent around $2,000,000 last year on lobbying. What’s wrong with that? The point is, neither AiIPAC nor the ACLU was paying members of Congress, as was so inelegantly suggested in the Benjamins post.

Sheesh, understand the difference between legitimate criticism of AIPAC and real economic anti-Semitism. The tweet was an example of the latter, pure and simple.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:36 PM

48. Do you know what the worst part of it is?

Illegitimate criticism of Israel drives out legitimate criticism of Israel. It is the eighty million evangelicals who support Netanyahu's Trump like nationalsm. They don't gave to live in that neighborhood. Israel does.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:56 PM

32. +1,000,000

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Response to frazzled (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 06:47 AM

53. AIPAC is a lobbying group not unlike the Arab Lobby. It is not a PAC, and does not make

contributions to politicians or political parties as you pointed out

AIPAC stands for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee

The association of Jews and money has always been a favorite theme of those who are anti-Jewish. The stereotypes have run rampant for decades in this country.

Ironically, Trump caused a similar controversey during his 2016 campaign when he tweeted an image depicting Clinton, cash and the Star of David, and no doubt that was a dog whistle to those who harbor anti-Jewish sentiments in the country, in the same way as his racist, bigoted statements were to those who share those "values"

If one is against lobbyists, shouldn't they be against all lobbyists, not just the one's they disagree with?


There was a reason that Representative Omar apologized, and that was a good thing, though interestingly enough when asked about comments from 2012 regarding Israel's powers of hypnosis" she said she didn't understand why it was offensive. As the editorial points out:

"The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome — then the greatest power in the world — to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.” But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: “We are not permitted to put anyone to death.” And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: “His blood is on us and our children,” the Jews say — a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his “Passion of the Christ.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html

There is an association between Israel and the Jews, since modern day Israel was based on that after WWII.

Being critical of the Israeli government is not necessarily anti-Jewish, nor are advocates for the BDS, but when using terms toward it that have the same vernacular as The Protocols of Zion, and other anti-Jewish verbiage, or implication pointing to "Jews and money",
that crosses a line.

The same can be said when associations are made to question congress people's dual loyalties. Ironically, that same argument could be hurled against those who are making those "dual loyalty" accusations

A major problem with the media in my view is a double standard between Democrats and republicans. Democrats are held to a much higher standard than republicans. This was more than evident in 2016, and it was demonstrated in many ways, including gender discrimination.

It was only a few days ago trump made a cruel reference to the "trail of tears", in association with Senator Warren. While there was some disgust, it didn't come close to the outrage expressed toward Representative Omar's tweet. Nor has trump's continuous racist, sexist, bigotry caused much of a ripple. It gets brushed aside.

Steve King's racist comments and associations had him removed from his committees, and there were newspaper editorials calling for his resignation, but in general, resignation of King was never taken seriously. Contrast that to what happens toward Democrats. Night and Day. The double standard I am referring to.

It is really time that the everyone be held to high standards, and it is way past due that the republicans stop getting a free pass for their outrageous behavior.

I am so tired of the "false equivlency" of the two parties that seem to always prop up in the conversation through the media outlets.


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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:31 PM

19. This was about one specific tweet

 

And had nothing to do with Israel.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:47 PM

28. Deflection noted n/t

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:00 AM

50. Deflection from the ACTUAL

 

tweet that has caused this? Whatever.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #50)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:20 AM

51. Hopefully this link

will demonstrate why you are wildly wrong. Cheers!

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/11/ilhan-omar-israel-lobby-documentary

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:31 AM

52. I'm not wrong

 

Do you also presume to tell African Americans what they're allowed to be offended by? If not, I'd appreciate the same fucking courtesy.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #52)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:25 AM

56. That's not how whiteness works

And from a certain perspective, this whole episode really reeks of a black muslim woman being told to shut her uppity mouth by the white establishment.

For the crime of saying money is involved in Israeli lobbying, and AIPAC is a lead Israeli* lobbying group. Not a good look.



*Oops, I'm supposed to say "Israel-linked" right? Or else I would be calling that group an illegal foreign agent, or something.

**As we already discussed, AIPAC is deeply involved in bundling political contributions. They even have a website for it. I don't want to hear the canard about "Jewish money."

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:31 AM

60. What part of

 

It's ALL about the benjamins are you having trouble with? AIPAC is not Israeli and is NOT Israeli linked. So sorry you can't comprehend that the strong majority of Americans support Israel but that's entirely your problem, not mine. And your nonsense about her being told to shut up is nothing but deflective bullshit. She did the right thing and apologized while also saying she had things to learn. She's handling it like an adult, unlike some others.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #56)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:14 PM

71. if Arabs are PoC then so are Jews.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:00 PM

34. That one specific tweet was in response to a tweet from Glenn Greenwald talking about...

....Omar's and Tlaib's criticisms of Israel, to which she responded "It's all abut the Benjamins baby". It's in Post #7 above.

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Response to George II (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:59 AM

49. I'm aware of that

 

But this particular story was about her engaging in age old, many ages old, tropes leveled against Jews. She fucked up - the leadership knows it, I was just watching Don Lemon (I watch him in the morning and generally avoid news before sleep) and he gets it. Many here do not.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:36 PM

22. If AIPAC keeps their bullshit up

they'll wind up on SPLC's list of hate groups. Ask the Muslim schoolteacher recently fired in Texas for refusing to sign an agreement attesting she would would not support any boycott of Israel or Israeli-made goods how she feels about AIPAC. These anti-BDS 'laws' proliferating in the red states like meth labs are a direct result of AIPAC lobbying. Even Schumer has signed onto this bullshit...

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Response to pecosbob (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:49 PM

29. AIPAC is not going to be a hate group

but it might overplay its hand and end up like the NRA.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 08:56 PM

33. Yeah, I was over the top

but this shit steams me. Now it seems Klobuchar supports it as well. Silencing people from expressing their political views is a real big peeve of mine. What's to stop South Carolina from passing laws preventing public employees from supporting Black Lives Matter or NARAL?

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Response to pecosbob (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:00 AM

54. Well Feinstein doesn't support it, nor do a lot of other Democrats, and while the ACLU takes no

position for or against the BDS, they do take the position that this is a violation of the first amendment.

I believe this will go to the SC, and in a similar way that flag burning was ruled as constitutionally-protected free speech, I think they will rule the same way with this.

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Response to pecosbob (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:14 PM

38. The anti-BDS 'laws'

are so blatantly unconstitutional, any legislator who supported these measures should be ashamed of themselves. I hate to think of all the tax dollars will be wasted on attempts to defend them in court.

(oops, typed this like 20 min ago, forgot to hit post, and then wandered off to the kitchen for a while...)

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Response to happybird (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:02 AM

55. That will go to the courts, and like the flag burning was ruled as constitutionally-protected free

speech, I believe this will be ruled the same way

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:49 AM

57. Unfortunately it isn't

Any criticism of Israel’s policies is instantly condemned as anti-Semitic. Any criticism of the lobbying pac AIPAC is condemned as anti-Semitic.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:21 AM

59. You do realize AIPAC is not a pac, it is a lobbying group, and there is a difference

American Israel Public Affairs Committee

Unlike PACs they do not give donations to politicians or political parties

The Arab Lobby also has their own lobbying groups as do others

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:39 AM

64. AIPAC as an organization does not. Individuals who belong to AIPAC do, as do individuals from the

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:44 AM - Edit history (2)

Arab Lobby, and other lobbying groups.

Just as the anti-BDS legislation in certain states, and some members in Congress tried to tie certain bills to prevent INDIVIUALS from supporting the BDS is a violation of the 1st amendment, which I believe will be heard by the SC, and ruled the same way they did that flag burning was protected by the 1st amendment, they will rule the same way with individuals that support the BDS

AIPAC lobbies the Congress of the United States on issues and legislation related to Israel. AIPAC regularly meets with members of Congress and holds events where it can share its views. AIPAC is not a political action committee, and does not directly donate to campaign contributions.

The Arab Lobby does the same thing, as do other lobbyists.

As far as your assessment that any criticism of Israel automatically levies a charge of anti-Jewish sentiment, I disagree.

There are plenty of posts critical of Israel, Netenyahu, and AIPAC that are voiced here that are NOT accused of being anti-Jewish, including some in this thread.

However, there is an association between Israel and the Jews, since modern day Israel was based on that after WWII.

Being critical of the Israeli government is not necessarily anti-Jewish, nor are advocates for the BDS, but when using terms toward it that have the same vernacular as The Protocols of Zion, and other anti-Jewish verbiage, or implication pointing to "Jews and money",
that starts to cross a line. "bring on the benjamins"

The association of Jews and money has always been a favorite theme of those who are anti-Jewish. The stereotypes have run rampant for decades in this country.

Ironically, Trump caused a similar controversey during his 2016 campaign when he tweeted an image depicting Clinton, cash and the Star of David, and no doubt that was a dog whistle to those who harbor anti-Jewish sentiments in the country, in the same way as his racist, bigoted statements were to those who share those "values"

If one is against lobbyists, one should be against all lobbyists, not just the one's they disagree with?

There was a reason that Representative Omar apologized, and that was a good thing, though interestingly enough when asked about comments from 2012 regarding Israel's powers of hypnosis" she said she didn't understand why it was offensive. As a NY Times editorial points out:

"The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome — then the greatest power in the world — to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.” But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: “We are not permitted to put anyone to death.” And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: “His blood is on us and our children,” the Jews say — a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his “Passion of the Christ.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html

So yes, there is sensitivity to that, just as there was sensitivity among African Americans, and Northam's yearbook

We get into problems though, when assertions are made to question a congress persons dual loyalties just because of a position they take on an issue. Ironically, that same argument could be hurled against those who are making those "dual loyalty" accusations

The problem isn't disagreements on issues, that is a fact of life, the problem as I see it is a double standard on a lot of things.

When trump makes a cruel reference to the "trail of tears", in association with Senator Warren, there was some disgust expressed, but it didn't come close to the outrage expressed toward Representative Omar's tweet. Same with trump's continuous racist, sexist, bigotry, it hardly causes a ripple.

That is the double standard I am referring to

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Response to still_one (Reply #64)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:42 AM

66. Sorry but it seems like a stretch to me

Being critical of Israel is not being anti-Jewish. Israel does not equal Jewish in my mind.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:50 AM

67. I don't particularly want to get involved in a discussion of Israel, the Palestinians, or the middle

east, except to say that criticism of Israel, Netanyahu, AIPAC, etc. does not automatically cause most people here to accuse someone of being anti-Jewish, and there are plenty of threads and posts on DU to demonstrate that, including some in this thread



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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:40 PM

78. Bullshit (n/t)

 

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:43 AM

61. Josh Marshall at TPM has a thoughtful edblog post

on this subject here: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/thoughts-on-ilhan-omar

But let’s go back to the money. Of course money plays a big role in pro-Israeli, or rather pro-Likud, pro-right-wing-Israeli politics in the US. But language never exists in a vacuum. Let me give you an example. It goes without saying that there are African-Americans who are lazy, just as there are in every community. But it’s just as obvious that we should be extremely careful and wary about using language and stereotyped constructs that are built on generations of denigration and dehumanization, ones that have been used to justify oppression and violence. The same applies here. We should expect people in the public sphere not to casually toss around words that fit so easily into centuries old stereotypes and libels against Jews. This isn’t complicated. We need to expect more from people in public life. McCarthy is a clown. Criticism of Israel does not equal anti-Semitism, as much as many see the political value of equating the two. But this was a deeply unfortunate tweet from Rep. Omar and it remains so regardless of how she meant it.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:38 AM

63. This whole episode was disgusting..

 

Ilhan said nothing wrong/inappropriate or even remotely "anti-semitic"... the hoops that people jump through to appease their donors is quite astounding.. this is why we have to get money out of politics..

and yes, it is "all about the benjamins" $$$$$$$$$$$$

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:04 AM

65. Res ipsa loquitur


Ilhan said nothing wrong/inappropriate or even remotely "anti-semitic"




Res ipsa loquitur




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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:41 AM

68. And that was years ago

And she's criticizing Israel, not Jewish people.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:45 AM

69. Germany let a foot in the door and it resulted in the Shoah

The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome — then the greatest power in the world — to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.” But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: “We are not permitted to put anyone to death.” And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: “His blood is on us and our children,” the Jews say — a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his “Passion of the Christ.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:13 PM

70. That is a big stretch

It sounds like an excuse to shut down any criticism of Israel.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:16 PM

72. Is it not possible to criticize Israel without suggesting

Is it not possible to criticize Israel without suggesting they use mind jedi tricks to get others to do their bidding?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #72)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:20 PM

73. So any criticism has to be defined within some narrow parameters

and BTW Bari Weiss is a well known conservative writer who supported Brett Kavanaugh and admits to being an "unhinged Zionist". Not a good source to prove your point.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:27 PM

74. If narrow parameters mean not invoking anti-semitic tropes the answer is yes

So any criticism has to be defined within some narrow parameters and BTW Bari Weiss is a well known conservative writer who supported Brett Kavanaugh and admits to being an "unhinged Zionist". Not a good source to prove your point.


Ecological fallacy. Let's revisit what she wrote and I cited:



The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome — then the greatest power in the world — to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.” But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: “We are not permitted to put anyone to death.” And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: “His blood is on us and our children,” the Jews say — a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his “Passion of the Christ.”



What is ahistorical about Ms. Weiss' observation?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:30 PM

75. Since the source is an conservative opinion writer

I take it with a grain of salt. Anything can be defined as a "trope" about any race or religion. In the end it is just a cheap way to shut down criticism of an nation's policies.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:35 PM

76. Criticizing Israeli policies and eschewing anti-semitic tropes are not mutually exclusive.

Do you not see how Jewish people get nervous when folks spin yarns about money, power, manipulation. malign influence, and them? As progressives we are expected to empathize with heretofore marginalized groups, all of them.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #76)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:44 PM

79. Sorry

I'm just not buying the 'tropes' argument. Again, anything can be called a 'trope' about anyone.

There is real anti-semitism out there like in Charlotte, North Carolina a year and a half ago. That needs to be called out. But shutting down legitimate criticism by defining it as a 'trope' is just crying wolf.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:51 PM

80. If I said

If I said one can criticize Iran without invoking anti-Islamic tropes would you demur from that observation?

There is real anti-semitism out there like in Charlotte, North Carolina a year and a half ago. That needs to be called out. But shutting down legitimate criticism by defining it as a 'trope' is just crying wolf.



And the suggestion that the only form of anti-semitism worthy of rebuke is a bunch of cretins marching with tiki torches purchased at Home Depot hollering "Jews will not replace us" strains credulity. Trump plays with anti-semitic tropes all the time. We have no problem criticizing him. Funny that.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:35 PM

81. As I said

I just don't buy the 'tropes' argument. It seems like a real stretch to shut down legitimate criticism of a nation.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:35 PM

82. When Trump told a group of wealthy Jewish Republicans donor he didn't need their money

We'll use a different word. How about calumnies?


When Trump told a group of wealthy Jewish Republicans donor he didn't need their money was he invoking anti-semitic calumnies and were the criticisms of him valid?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #82)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:52 PM

83. Need to know more about incident

before I can comment on it

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:59 PM

84. Voila

But while Trump tried to win over the audience of wealthy Jewish Republicans, the billionaire presidential candidate said he didn't believe the assembled crowd would support him.
"You're not gonna support me because I don't want your money. You want to control your politicians, that's fine. Five months ago I was with you," Trump said, pointing to his recent past as a much sought-after political donor who filled the campaign coffers of both Republicans and Democrats. "I do want your support, but I don't want your money."

...

https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/politics/donald-trump-rjc-negotiator/index.html


When Trump reposted a tweet replete with a Star of David that suggested Hillary was a tool of the Jews was he trafficking in anti-semitic calumnies:

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:58 PM

85. Ok

Both are far more direct and overt. They are not some mysterious ‘trope’.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:40 PM

77. Keep the conversation about Israeli conduct.

 

Not broadbrush stereotypes.

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