General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Anti-semitic tropes"
From what I see, this basically means if active antisemites use a word, a phrase or a line or argumentation in their smears, then anyone else who utilizes those elements in specifically criticizing Israel, even if its unwittingly and outside the context of the entire Jewish population, they will be guilty of antisemitism by association.
And since antisemites use any argument they can get their hands on to criticize Jews and Israel, that means honest critics of Israel, like Ilhan Omar, are pretty much boxed in, isn't that right?
Is it possible to have an adult conversation about Israeli conduct anymore?
OnDoutside
(19,952 posts)wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Threatened to withhold foreign aid to Israel over settlements back in the 1990s.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Will be deemed as Antisemitism by someone.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11807759
<referring to my own posts>
See how easy it is to criticize the Israeli government and its policies without invoking anti-semitic tropes.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)and punishing those who break your arbitrary rules with the broad brush of antisemitism.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)In football they have the Rooney rule. How about in politics we have the David Duke rule. When you are getting hosannas from David Duke:
Link to tweet
you aren't in a very good place.
Progressivism and anti-semitism are mutually exclusive. The former is as antediluvian as the flood.
If the charge is I am circumscribing the debate to exclude even a whiff of anti-semitism I gladly plead guilty.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Nobody cares what David Duke thinks. Are you even trying anymore?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If you believe Jews use their money to unduly influence American foreign policy there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of notion.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)because I refuse to play your game.
I could set a watch to you.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I want to prevent the next Shoah. Call it trying to prevent the proverbial foot in the door.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)that I'm not interested in preventing the next Holocaust. Am I reading you right?
pampango
(24,692 posts)I 'care' what conservative racists think. Ignoring what they think, say and do is not the best way to deal with their form of hatred, IMHO. Confronting them is.
On the extremely rare occasions that I find myself in agreement with one of them on a particular issue, I take a big step back and re-examine my position. If it is a case of Duke (and other racists) and me reaching the same position but for diametrically opposed lines of reasoning, I can live with that. It wouldn't make me happy but I can live with it.
If my 're-examination' leads me to see something in myself that I am not proud of (it has happened; I am flawed and have grown a lot over the years), I live and learn and hopefully grow. Perhaps that is what happened in Ilyan Omar's case. Maybe Duke's tweet jolted her. Maybe Pelosi and other Dems just applied too much pressure for her to resist. In any event, her apology ended with a commitment to fight the influence of money in politics which would include, but not be limited to, AIPAC. I'll give her credit.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)When it comes to other marginalized groups we make every effort not to offend them and make their burdens heavier. This strikes me as the right thing to do. Why isn't this magnanimity extended to Jews?
If any group finds something offensive why say it? Whenever a person starts talking about Jews, money and power Jews are made to feel uncomfortable, for obvious reasons, because such talk always ended badly for them.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)And you know this.
Both sides of the conflict are ruled by political parties that are formed from terrorist groups. Guess which side is constantly branded as terrorists.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I can't control what others say.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)the sweeping generalizations of Palestinians like you do Israelis and their right-wing apologists, do you?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I call out bigotry whenever and wherever it raises its ugly head. I have even called out friends and relatives when they casually dismiss the grievances of the Palestinians.
George II
(67,782 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)She came back in her apology to use more precise examples. I think that AIPAC and the JDL have a number of negative aspects to them that lean toward extremism, but the ADL has long fought a good fight against societal anti-semitism.
When you say "is it about time we had an adult conversation", well, that can be said about a lot of serious race, ethnic or sex identity based problems in society. I honestly think that people are slowly working through the issues, in my county, which had rigid racial seperation at one time, people of different races make up neighborhoods now, use the same public pools, ect. I see a lot of transracial friendships today.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The ADL has spoken out against anti-Jewish and anti-Islamic bigotry.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)AIPAC is more focused on a very narrow set of objectives and don't engage the larger society.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Nowhere did she say "Jewish lobby." If we are to have an adult conversation, we should reference what is actually being said instead of constantly reading between the lines looking for the Muslim antisemite.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I read the tweets, she appropriately singled out AIPAC, IMO.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Link to tweet
?lang=en
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)And many here are determined not to see that.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If a Jewish congressperson said something like that I would have started several posts lambasting him. People have search functions. I have a long history of calling out bigotry regardless of the target.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)There is a long thread still standing about not trusting Christians. That would never be allowed for some groups. Never.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Do realize the context in which she made that tweet, yet another Israeli offensive which resulted in a laughably disproportionate number of Palestinian civilians killed.
https://www.btselem.org/download/201305_pillar_of_defense_operation_eng.pdf
Of course, 87 Palestinian civilian deaths versus 4 Israeli civilian deaths are perfectly justified because it fits in the calculus of Israel rightfully defending itself.
Other people obviously disagree with that conclusion.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)the lexicon of verboten terms? Be honest.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If an Arab kills an Israeli and a Jewish congressperson calls on the God of Moses to spite all Arabs he or she will not escape my rhetorical wrath. i don't have different standards for those I like and those I dislike.
What does ir mean to hypnotize the world? Do Jews have super natural powers to control the world? How does it work? If we have super natural powers why am I living in a forty year old 550 square foot apartment and not a 10,000 square foot mansion?
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Don't conflate the two.
And nowhere in that post did she call for Allah to "spite" all Jews.
This overdramatizing is getting ridiculous.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Spite, expose.
Is this better:
What century are we in, calling on God to expose our enemies? It's frankly antediluvian.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)outside the ethno-religious context, saying that a government-led spin campaign "hypnotizes" the perception of what was a clearly asymmetric military offensive would be as banal an observation that one can possibly make.
And also, Omar's original "hypnotize" tweet contains neither the words "spite" nor "expose." Correct me if I'm missing something.
TeamPooka
(24,218 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)you think was okay that about the phrase, aimed at AIPAC and its influence on Congress: Its about the Benjamins, baby. Implying that the group is paying Congresspersons money.
In reality, AIPAC does not make financial contributions to either politicians or political parties.
Criticisms of groups like AIPAC or the policies of the Israeli government are fine. Dredging up conspiracies about Jewish money driving governments is definitely not okay. People died because of such calumnies.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Precisely
It's right out of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Henry Ford's The International Jew
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Even if the organization itself does not make contributions. Let's not be dishonest about how a lobbying group works, though I highly doubt monetary contributions by Israeli-centered lobbying groups is responsible for the outsized U.S. support for Israel.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Members make contributions to candidates. So thats the Jewish money thats controlling the government and its policies. Thats how the canny Jews control the world. Where have we heard that before?
Im a member of Southern Poverty Law Center, which does not itself endorse or fund candidates. But I sometimes give money to candidates. And I am a member! Oh gosh, I didnt realize my Benjamins were behind a scurrilous plot to buy off politicians. I better stop giving.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Nobody is connecting AIPAC member money with Jewish money in general. That is a slur and an outrageous lie.
Also, AIPAC spent $3.5 million lobbying the government. I'll give you two guesses on how much SPLC spent on that activity.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)In your post!
No sense arguing with someone who doesnt acknowledge what they wrote.
The ACLU (of which I used to be a member) spent around $2,000,000 last year on lobbying. Whats wrong with that? The point is, neither AiIPAC nor the ACLU was paying members of Congress, as was so inelegantly suggested in the Benjamins post.
Sheesh, understand the difference between legitimate criticism of AIPAC and real economic anti-Semitism. The tweet was an example of the latter, pure and simple.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Illegitimate criticism of Israel drives out legitimate criticism of Israel. It is the eighty million evangelicals who support Netanyahu's Trump like nationalsm. They don't gave to live in that neighborhood. Israel does.
George II
(67,782 posts)still_one
(92,116 posts)contributions to politicians or political parties as you pointed out
AIPAC stands for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee
The association of Jews and money has always been a favorite theme of those who are anti-Jewish. The stereotypes have run rampant for decades in this country.
Ironically, Trump caused a similar controversey during his 2016 campaign when he tweeted an image depicting Clinton, cash and the Star of David, and no doubt that was a dog whistle to those who harbor anti-Jewish sentiments in the country, in the same way as his racist, bigoted statements were to those who share those "values"
If one is against lobbyists, shouldn't they be against all lobbyists, not just the one's they disagree with?
There was a reason that Representative Omar apologized, and that was a good thing, though interestingly enough when asked about comments from 2012 regarding Israel's powers of hypnosis" she said she didn't understand why it was offensive. As the editorial points out:
"The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome then the greatest power in the world to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law. But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: We are not permitted to put anyone to death. And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: His blood is on us and our children, the Jews say a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his Passion of the Christ.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html
There is an association between Israel and the Jews, since modern day Israel was based on that after WWII.
Being critical of the Israeli government is not necessarily anti-Jewish, nor are advocates for the BDS, but when using terms toward it that have the same vernacular as The Protocols of Zion, and other anti-Jewish verbiage, or implication pointing to "Jews and money",
that crosses a line.
The same can be said when associations are made to question congress people's dual loyalties. Ironically, that same argument could be hurled against those who are making those "dual loyalty" accusations
A major problem with the media in my view is a double standard between Democrats and republicans. Democrats are held to a much higher standard than republicans. This was more than evident in 2016, and it was demonstrated in many ways, including gender discrimination.
It was only a few days ago trump made a cruel reference to the "trail of tears", in association with Senator Warren. While there was some disgust, it didn't come close to the outrage expressed toward Representative Omar's tweet. Nor has trump's continuous racist, sexist, bigotry caused much of a ripple. It gets brushed aside.
Steve King's racist comments and associations had him removed from his committees, and there were newspaper editorials calling for his resignation, but in general, resignation of King was never taken seriously. Contrast that to what happens toward Democrats. Night and Day. The double standard I am referring to.
It is really time that the everyone be held to high standards, and it is way past due that the republicans stop getting a free pass for their outrageous behavior.
I am so tired of the "false equivlency" of the two parties that seem to always prop up in the conversation through the media outlets.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)And had nothing to do with Israel.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)tweet that has caused this? Whatever.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)will demonstrate why you are wildly wrong. Cheers!
https://theintercept.com/2019/02/11/ilhan-omar-israel-lobby-documentary
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Do you also presume to tell African Americans what they're allowed to be offended by? If not, I'd appreciate the same fucking courtesy.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)And from a certain perspective, this whole episode really reeks of a black muslim woman being told to shut her uppity mouth by the white establishment.
For the crime of saying money is involved in Israeli lobbying, and AIPAC is a lead Israeli* lobbying group. Not a good look.
*Oops, I'm supposed to say "Israel-linked" right? Or else I would be calling that group an illegal foreign agent, or something.
**As we already discussed, AIPAC is deeply involved in bundling political contributions. They even have a website for it. I don't want to hear the canard about "Jewish money."
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It's ALL about the benjamins are you having trouble with? AIPAC is not Israeli and is NOT Israeli linked. So sorry you can't comprehend that the strong majority of Americans support Israel but that's entirely your problem, not mine. And your nonsense about her being told to shut up is nothing but deflective bullshit. She did the right thing and apologized while also saying she had things to learn. She's handling it like an adult, unlike some others.
Mosby
(16,297 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....Omar's and Tlaib's criticisms of Israel, to which she responded "It's all abut the Benjamins baby". It's in Post #7 above.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)But this particular story was about her engaging in age old, many ages old, tropes leveled against Jews. She fucked up - the leadership knows it, I was just watching Don Lemon (I watch him in the morning and generally avoid news before sleep) and he gets it. Many here do not.
pecosbob
(7,534 posts)they'll wind up on SPLC's list of hate groups. Ask the Muslim schoolteacher recently fired in Texas for refusing to sign an agreement attesting she would would not support any boycott of Israel or Israeli-made goods how she feels about AIPAC. These anti-BDS 'laws' proliferating in the red states like meth labs are a direct result of AIPAC lobbying. Even Schumer has signed onto this bullshit...
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)but it might overplay its hand and end up like the NRA.
pecosbob
(7,534 posts)but this shit steams me. Now it seems Klobuchar supports it as well. Silencing people from expressing their political views is a real big peeve of mine. What's to stop South Carolina from passing laws preventing public employees from supporting Black Lives Matter or NARAL?
still_one
(92,116 posts)position for or against the BDS, they do take the position that this is a violation of the first amendment.
I believe this will go to the SC, and in a similar way that flag burning was ruled as constitutionally-protected free speech, I think they will rule the same way with this.
happybird
(4,603 posts)are so blatantly unconstitutional, any legislator who supported these measures should be ashamed of themselves. I hate to think of all the tax dollars will be wasted on attempts to defend them in court.
(oops, typed this like 20 min ago, forgot to hit post, and then wandered off to the kitchen for a while...)
still_one
(92,116 posts)speech, I believe this will be ruled the same way
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Any criticism of Israels policies is instantly condemned as anti-Semitic. Any criticism of the lobbying pac AIPAC is condemned as anti-Semitic.
still_one
(92,116 posts)American Israel Public Affairs Committee
Unlike PACs they do not give donations to politicians or political parties
The Arab Lobby also has their own lobbying groups as do others
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)still_one
(92,116 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:44 AM - Edit history (2)
Arab Lobby, and other lobbying groups.
Just as the anti-BDS legislation in certain states, and some members in Congress tried to tie certain bills to prevent INDIVIUALS from supporting the BDS is a violation of the 1st amendment, which I believe will be heard by the SC, and ruled the same way they did that flag burning was protected by the 1st amendment, they will rule the same way with individuals that support the BDS
AIPAC lobbies the Congress of the United States on issues and legislation related to Israel. AIPAC regularly meets with members of Congress and holds events where it can share its views. AIPAC is not a political action committee, and does not directly donate to campaign contributions.
The Arab Lobby does the same thing, as do other lobbyists.
As far as your assessment that any criticism of Israel automatically levies a charge of anti-Jewish sentiment, I disagree.
There are plenty of posts critical of Israel, Netenyahu, and AIPAC that are voiced here that are NOT accused of being anti-Jewish, including some in this thread.
However, there is an association between Israel and the Jews, since modern day Israel was based on that after WWII.
Being critical of the Israeli government is not necessarily anti-Jewish, nor are advocates for the BDS, but when using terms toward it that have the same vernacular as The Protocols of Zion, and other anti-Jewish verbiage, or implication pointing to "Jews and money",
that starts to cross a line. "bring on the benjamins"
The association of Jews and money has always been a favorite theme of those who are anti-Jewish. The stereotypes have run rampant for decades in this country.
Ironically, Trump caused a similar controversey during his 2016 campaign when he tweeted an image depicting Clinton, cash and the Star of David, and no doubt that was a dog whistle to those who harbor anti-Jewish sentiments in the country, in the same way as his racist, bigoted statements were to those who share those "values"
If one is against lobbyists, one should be against all lobbyists, not just the one's they disagree with?
There was a reason that Representative Omar apologized, and that was a good thing, though interestingly enough when asked about comments from 2012 regarding Israel's powers of hypnosis" she said she didn't understand why it was offensive. As a NY Times editorial points out:
"The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome then the greatest power in the world to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law. But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: We are not permitted to put anyone to death. And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: His blood is on us and our children, the Jews say a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his Passion of the Christ.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html
So yes, there is sensitivity to that, just as there was sensitivity among African Americans, and Northam's yearbook
We get into problems though, when assertions are made to question a congress persons dual loyalties just because of a position they take on an issue. Ironically, that same argument could be hurled against those who are making those "dual loyalty" accusations
The problem isn't disagreements on issues, that is a fact of life, the problem as I see it is a double standard on a lot of things.
When trump makes a cruel reference to the "trail of tears", in association with Senator Warren, there was some disgust expressed, but it didn't come close to the outrage expressed toward Representative Omar's tweet. Same with trump's continuous racist, sexist, bigotry, it hardly causes a ripple.
That is the double standard I am referring to
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Being critical of Israel is not being anti-Jewish. Israel does not equal Jewish in my mind.
still_one
(92,116 posts)east, except to say that criticism of Israel, Netanyahu, AIPAC, etc. does not automatically cause most people here to accuse someone of being anti-Jewish, and there are plenty of threads and posts on DU to demonstrate that, including some in this thread
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)DeminPennswoods
(15,273 posts)on this subject here: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/thoughts-on-ilhan-omar
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)Ilhan said nothing wrong/inappropriate or even remotely "anti-semitic"... the hoops that people jump through to appease their donors is quite astounding.. this is why we have to get money out of politics..
and yes, it is "all about the benjamins" $$$$$$$$$$$$
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Res ipsa loquitur
Link to tweet
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)And she's criticizing Israel, not Jewish people.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome then the greatest power in the world to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law. But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: We are not permitted to put anyone to death. And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: His blood is on us and our children, the Jews say a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his Passion of the Christ.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)It sounds like an excuse to shut down any criticism of Israel.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Is it not possible to criticize Israel without suggesting they use mind jedi tricks to get others to do their bidding?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)and BTW Bari Weiss is a well known conservative writer who supported Brett Kavanaugh and admits to being an "unhinged Zionist". Not a good source to prove your point.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Ecological fallacy. Let's revisit what she wrote and I cited:
What is ahistorical about Ms. Weiss' observation?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I take it with a grain of salt. Anything can be defined as a "trope" about any race or religion. In the end it is just a cheap way to shut down criticism of an nation's policies.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Do you not see how Jewish people get nervous when folks spin yarns about money, power, manipulation. malign influence, and them? As progressives we are expected to empathize with heretofore marginalized groups, all of them.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I'm just not buying the 'tropes' argument. Again, anything can be called a 'trope' about anyone.
There is real anti-semitism out there like in Charlotte, North Carolina a year and a half ago. That needs to be called out. But shutting down legitimate criticism by defining it as a 'trope' is just crying wolf.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If I said one can criticize Iran without invoking anti-Islamic tropes would you demur from that observation?
And the suggestion that the only form of anti-semitism worthy of rebuke is a bunch of cretins marching with tiki torches purchased at Home Depot hollering "Jews will not replace us" strains credulity. Trump plays with anti-semitic tropes all the time. We have no problem criticizing him. Funny that.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)I just don't buy the 'tropes' argument. It seems like a real stretch to shut down legitimate criticism of a nation.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)We'll use a different word. How about calumnies?
When Trump told a group of wealthy Jewish Republicans donor he didn't need their money was he invoking anti-semitic calumnies and were the criticisms of him valid?
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)before I can comment on it
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)"You're not gonna support me because I don't want your money. You want to control your politicians, that's fine. Five months ago I was with you," Trump said, pointing to his recent past as a much sought-after political donor who filled the campaign coffers of both Republicans and Democrats. "I do want your support, but I don't want your money."
...
https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/politics/donald-trump-rjc-negotiator/index.html
When Trump reposted a tweet replete with a Star of David that suggested Hillary was a tool of the Jews was he trafficking in anti-semitic calumnies:
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)Both are far more direct and overt. They are not some mysterious trope.
WeekiWater
(3,259 posts)Not broadbrush stereotypes.