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Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:18 AM

Israel is not a race or a religion

It is a country with questionable policies. Criticism is not anti-semetic.

112 replies, 4538 views

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Reply Israel is not a race or a religion (Original post)
Soxfan58 Feb 12 OP
Dennis Donovan Feb 12 #1
Sherman A1 Feb 12 #2
Pacifist Patriot Feb 12 #3
SallyHemmings Feb 12 #4
walkingman Feb 12 #5
fountainofyouth Feb 12 #6
Soxfan58 Feb 12 #13
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #21
Honeycombe8 Feb 12 #45
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #47
McKim Feb 12 #56
SQUEE Feb 13 #112
LakeSuperiorView Feb 12 #22
HootieMcBoob Feb 12 #27
Trumpocalypse Feb 12 #62
fountainofyouth Feb 12 #105
Trumpocalypse Feb 12 #107
lancelyons Feb 12 #103
fountainofyouth Feb 12 #104
leftynyc Feb 12 #7
cab67 Feb 12 #8
leftynyc Feb 12 #10
cab67 Feb 12 #17
leftynyc Feb 12 #30
cab67 Feb 12 #57
lancelyons Feb 12 #34
leftynyc Feb 12 #54
lancelyons Feb 12 #63
leftynyc Feb 12 #64
Crunchy Frog Feb 13 #111
cab67 Feb 12 #58
IronLionZion Feb 12 #9
fountainofyouth Feb 12 #11
oldsoftie Feb 12 #26
IronLionZion Feb 12 #40
handmade34 Feb 12 #12
lapucelle Feb 12 #28
handmade34 Feb 12 #36
lapucelle Feb 12 #42
lapucelle Feb 12 #33
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #14
Dennis Donovan Feb 12 #19
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #31
lancelyons Feb 12 #35
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #67
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #80
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #90
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #93
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #96
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #106
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #108
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #109
wellst0nev0ter Feb 13 #110
George II Feb 12 #38
LineLineLineLineReply ?
Dennis Donovan Feb 12 #39
George II Feb 12 #43
Dennis Donovan Feb 12 #44
Hortensis Feb 12 #23
customerserviceguy Feb 12 #15
arthritisR_US Feb 12 #16
EndGOPPropaganda Feb 12 #18
ouija Feb 12 #20
EndGOPPropaganda Feb 12 #24
PatSeg Feb 12 #37
pdsimdars Feb 12 #25
Hortensis Feb 12 #29
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #68
Hortensis Feb 12 #70
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #72
Hortensis Feb 12 #73
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #74
Hortensis Feb 12 #75
Hortensis Feb 12 #77
lancelyons Feb 12 #32
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #41
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #69
LanternWaste Feb 12 #76
Recursion Feb 12 #71
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #89
Recursion Feb 12 #98
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #100
yaesu Feb 12 #46
LastLiberal in PalmSprings Feb 12 #48
Honeycombe8 Feb 12 #49
patphil Feb 12 #50
The Blue Flower Feb 12 #51
bitterross Feb 12 #52
beastie boy Feb 12 #53
PatrickforO Feb 12 #55
RAAD2 Feb 12 #59
guillaumeb Feb 12 #60
Name removed Feb 12 #61
HopeAgain Feb 12 #78
Caliman73 Feb 12 #65
FiveGoodMen Feb 12 #82
Caliman73 Feb 12 #95
Cold War Spook Feb 12 #66
Mosby Feb 12 #79
BeyondGeography Feb 12 #81
Mosby Feb 12 #84
BeyondGeography Feb 12 #87
Mosby Feb 12 #91
Mosby Feb 12 #92
Cold War Spook Feb 12 #85
Mosby Feb 12 #88
Cold War Spook Feb 12 #94
Mosby Feb 12 #97
Cold War Spook Feb 12 #99
RelativelyJones Feb 12 #83
Xolodno Feb 12 #86
Gothmog Feb 12 #101
lancelyons Feb 12 #102

Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:22 AM

1. IBTL.

...however, I agree.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:26 AM

2. Agreed

and also IBTL.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:31 AM

3. Agreed

And I had to Google IBTL

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:32 AM

4. Well stated

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:39 AM

5. My thoughts exactly. Charade

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:41 AM

6. You're right, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, BUT

Using anti-Semitic tropes to criticize Israel or Americans is a problem. Rep. Omar's criticism was not about Israel. It was about AIPAC, and it strayed dangerously into territory she previously covered in her "hypnotism" tweet from years ago.

She was right to apologize.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:56 AM

13. I agree!

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:21 AM

21. Well then, AIPAC should apologize too

And AIPAC should have apologized many times over many years, if we're going to go back into everyone's past.

No one is innocent. No one.

"There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me and we just disagree."

AIPAC ain't no good guy.

From the Washington Post.

The dark roots of AIPAC, ‘America’s Pro-Israel Lobby’

The group was formed to spin positive PR after Israeli atrocities.

By Doug Rossinow
Doug Rossinow teaches history at the University of Oslo, and is currently writing a history of American Zionism from 1948 to 1995.
March 6, 2018

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/03/06/the-dark-roots-of-aipac-americas-pro-israel-lobby/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.585a3446ad7b

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:40 AM

45. AIPAC isn't a person. But Netanyahu is. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:45 AM

47. AIPAC is made up of of people

I'm willing to accept all of their individual apologies.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:21 AM

56. Another Israel is Possible: AIPAC Money Should Go to Solving It

It is a real shame that the money that supports AIPAC was not spent on solving the problems within Israel/Palestine. They have spent enormous amounts of money on a huge public relations campaign to cover up what they are doing to Palestinians and public relations campaigns to cover the truth.. If the resources and the will moved to another place, to a new vision of that country we would all be better off and so would the whole Middle East. Another world is possible!!!!

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Response to McKim (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 10:26 AM

112. AIPAC does not want that Israel.

When you look into it, they are really guided from a Millennialist POV. Israel itself does not matter, they act from a religious self interest, and that self interest ironically includes the destruction of Israel as laid out in Daniel and the Revelations. The perceived concern for Israel is to merely use it as a stage for the upcoming Apocalypse.

And the Jews in Israel know this.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:25 AM

22. I have not read the tweet(s), so I don't have context here.

 

I'd just like to point out that criticizing AIPAC is not anti-Semititic either. What AIPAC does is try to influence the US Congress, which involves, by nature, spending money. It' would kind of hard to criticize lobbyists without mentioning money. No one gets bent out of shape when money is mentioned about the NRA, except for the NRA.

That said, I don't know what was in the tweets, because I think Twitter is ridiculous, so I won't offer an opinion of the tweets themselves, just on some of the comments I see in this thread.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:32 AM

27. But, her criticism of AIPAC is accurate.

This is a link to AIPAC's "congressional club" page. https://www.aipac.org/act/congressional-club

They specifically ask for: a minimum financial commitment of $2,500 a year, or $5,000 per two-year election cycle, to pro-Israel politics

and

Commit to giving political contributions in a clearly pro-Israel context to candidates running for the United States House of Representatives and/or United States Senate

Criticizing AIPAC or any lobbying organization regarding the leverage they hold over the U.S. Congress due to the problem we have with money in our political system is legitimate and should not be misconstrued, intentionally or otherwise.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:25 AM

62. anti-Semitic tropes???

Sorry but that just sounds like an excuse to shut down any criticism.

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Response to Trumpocalypse (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:30 PM

105. If the only way you can criticize is by using anti-Semitic tropes,

That's on you. I have plenty of criticisms of AIPAC, and none that falsely conjure Svegalis dangling money in front of terrified goyim, like Rep. Omar's previous tweet about Israel "hypnotizing" the world.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #105)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:23 PM

107. And calling anything a trope

is just a way to shut down legitimate criticism

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:20 PM

103. Claiming lobbyist groups putting money into congresses pockets is now anti Semitic tropes

What if it where saying big pharma puts money in congresses pockets. Is that antiSemitic tropes? It's all bs

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Response to lancelyons (Reply #103)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:29 PM

104. AIPAC is not a Political Action Committee

It has no financial arm.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:41 AM

7. Since nobody said it was

I'm not sure what the purpose of this OP is. Bibi is an asshole, has been horrible for Israel and further to that, the religious freaks there have far too much power considering their numbers. See, I can criticize Israel without engaging in anti-semitism and have no idea why so many whine they are unable to do that.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:43 AM

8. many people do conflate Israel and Judaism.

I've been called antisemitic for speaking out against policies undertaken by the Israeli government - not so much on DU, but by people who are otherwise very progressive.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:46 AM

10. It obviously depends on the criticism

Did you specifically trash bibi or the entire country and its reason for being? That's the difference.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:04 AM

17. I criticized the policy of establishing settlements in the West Bank.

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:34 AM - Edit history (1)

I've also expressed disagreement with the members of the Knesset who actively call for what can only be described as ethnic cleansing. The population of Israel within its UN-recognized borders is 75 percent Jewish, but that would drop to a lot closer to 50 percent if the occupied territories were annexed and the Palestinian Muslims currently living there remained. That would impact the nature of Israel as a Jewish state. The Israeli government has not actively called for their relocation, the Israelis I personally know find the idea abhorrent, and it's unlikely to happen, but at least some far-right Israeli politicians think it's a good idea.

The problem is that, for some people, the occupied territories are already seen as part of Israel and necessary for the territorial integrity and survival of the country. Opinions to the contrary are thus perceived as attacks on Israel itself and, by extension, on Judaism as a whole.

I have always been very clear about where my disagreement is directed, but that doesn't always matter for some people.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:50 AM

30. My friends there HATE that law

and it was only one person (she guided us through the big food market in Jerusalem) that voiced support of it. But she also thought Hillary Clinton was a murderer (if she had kept her politics to herself, her tip would have been much larger). I honestly think their right wing, much like ours, are a very loud, very obnoxious minority. The settlements are a huge issue, that's true.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:22 AM

57. something occurs to me.

Some of the Israeli far-right politicians who take an excessively hawkish stance toward the occupied territories are American-born.

Which actually makes sense. I've encountered more strident support for annexing the occupied territories, or against a two-state system, from Jewish Americans than from Jewish Israelis.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:57 AM

34. If you trashed Bibi and the entire reason Israel is in place after 1948 that is not antisemitism.


Anitsemtitism is hostility and discrimination against Jewish people.

If I call out Israel, its not calling out Jewish people.

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Response to lancelyons (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:14 AM

54. Saying Israel has no right to exist

will be seen, by the VAST majority of Jewish Americans as anti-semitism. And once again, since I would never presume to tell a minority group I'm not part of what they should consider offensive, perhaps you should leave it to Jews to decide what they find offensive.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:34 AM

63. I can certainly talk about what Israel has done bad without being anti semitic.

Just like I can talk about what Germany has done without being anti White

Or talk about how Saddam Hussein was a bad man without being anti muslim.

There is seperation between the people and their faith and their country or leader.

AGAIN:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is hostility to, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews. A person who holds such positions is called an antisemite. Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism.

Criticism of a country is not hostility or discrimination against JEWS.

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Response to lancelyons (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:43 AM

64. You just changed the subject

I said saying Israel doesn't have a right to exist is anti-semitism and you completely ignored that to complain that some fictitious people are calling criticism of Israeli politics anti-semitism (I've never actually seen anyone do that, only have people complain about it). I criticize bibi all the time, he's loathsome and an asshole.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 04:21 AM

111. I don't believe that ANY country has a "right to exist", including my own.

Historically, countries tend to be transient entities anyway.

So I guess that makes me an anti-semite according to your criteria.

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Response to lancelyons (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:23 AM

58. Agreed.

But that doesn't prevent some people (not all of them Jewish) from shouting "antisemite!" whenever I criticize a policy of the Israeli government.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:46 AM

9. But criticism of lobbyists influencing Republican politicians is

liable to make one go cross-eyed through some logical somersaults.

There's no winning this one. It's like talking to NRA supporters about "a well regulated militia".

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:52 AM

11. The second problem with Rep. Omar's tweet was

Lobbying has extremely little to do with why the GOP loves Bibi. They don't need convincing. And AIPAC is a convenient boogeyman, but they're not even the most influential pro-Israel group anymore. They've been overtaken by the evangelical organizations like Christians United for Israel.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:32 AM

26. the apology itself was half-hearted; dragging the NRA into the apology?

And her previous comments aren't much different.

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Response to fountainofyouth (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:10 AM

40. Christian lobbyists influencing Christian Republicans is anti-Semitic

if one does logical somersaults

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:55 AM

12. well said

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Leonhardt from NYT

...a few examples of criticisms of Israel that are decidedly not anti-Semitic:
“Israeli forces unlawfully killed Palestinian civilians, including children,” Amnesty International recently wrote. Israel’s discrimination “against Arab and other minorities” has led to “systemic disparities in areas including political representation, criminal justice and economic opportunity,” Freedom House, the democracy watchdog, noted. And Israel’s prime minister is a corrupt politician with a fondness for far-right demagogues, as many writers have argued.
You can agree or disagree with each of these criticisms on the merits, but there is nothing inherently bigoted about them. Criticism of Israel, including harsh condemnation, is not the same thing as anti-Semitism.

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:46 AM

28. Do you have a link? For whatever reason, the text is showing as characters rather than letters. N/T

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:18 AM

42. I found it and was able to read the entire piece for additional context. Thanks. N/T

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:57 AM

33. For some additional context, here's what Leonhardt writes next:

But criticism of Israel is not inherently free of anti-Semitism, either — a point that I wish more critics of Israel would acknowledge. Here are a few such forms of anti-Semitism:

- Calls for the elimination of the Jewish state that are suspiciously silent about the need to eliminate other religious states. Questioning Israel’s right to exist often falls into this category.

- The old trope that Jews have secret powers to control other people. Ilhan Omar, the Minnesota congresswoman, dabbled in this sort of conspiracy when she tweeted in 2012 that Israel had “hypnotized the world” to keep people from seeing its “evil doings.”

snip==================================================

- The related trope that Jews use their money to control people. An example: A London mural that depicted hooknosed bankers running the world— which Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of Britain’s Labour Party, initially defended. Another example: Omar’s claim over the weekend that members of Congress support Israel because of money they receive from pro-Israel lobbyists. “It’s all about the Benjamins,” she tweeted.

Yes, the tweet was bad.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/ilhan-omar-antisemitism-israel.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fdavid-leonhardt&action=click&contentCollection=undefined

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:57 AM

14. The problem was not criticism of Israel

The problem was that she used the old anti-Semitic trope that suggests that Jewish money has a stranglehold on governments. That is straight out of Hitler's playbook, whether she intended it that way or not.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:17 AM

19. She spoke specifically about a political action committee, not a religion or ethnicity

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:52 AM

31. No, it's not that simple

This particular political action committee is deeply associated with Jews and Judaism, and the suggestion that they bribe US officials for nefarious purposes evokes centuries of similar tropes that were used against Jews. The issue here was not criticism of Israel, but evoking the stereotyping of Jews that goes back centuries.

It's kind of like black face - whatever the context, the moment you put on that shoe polish you evoke hurtful historical mocking of African Americans, and if they say they are offended, then listen. Or of a woman says that calling a female candidate hysterical is offensive, don't respond with "but this particular one is hysterical." Etc.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:59 AM

35. Yes they are because they Lobby for pro Israel policy. Hard not to have associations there.

But Hammering and Criticizing AIPAC is not anti semitic.


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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:42 PM

67. AIPAC routinely condemns people

who call it a "Jewish organization."

Now the people smearing Omar, including AIPAC, have to necessarily paint the organization as Jewish.

You see why this debate is so tiring?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:44 PM

80. And yet the association is there

I'm definitely not defending AIPAC. I don't think they necessarily represent Judaism. However, I do know that they are, rightly or wrongly, associated with Jews and Judaism. And I know that the idea of a shadowy cabal of Jews who influence government with their money is a nasty anti-Semitic smear that has existed for a long, long time, and that smear was evoked by this. THAT is why her tweet got criticized. The issue is not criticism of Israel, but the anti-Semitic trope that was used.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:56 PM

90. So when and how

do we appropriately criticize the outsized influence of AIPAC money, a fact that is not up for debate?

I'll wait.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #90)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:00 PM

93. You don't suggest that "it's all about the Benjamins."

The matter of US support of Israel is complex, and to reduce it to a simple money matter in a way that evokes the stereotype of the "Jewish money cabal that influences history" is to cross a line from critique of Israel and into anti-Semitic territory.

It's not that difficult.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #93)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:43 PM

96. So here is the tweet she is responding to:




She was talking about what motivates Kevin McCarthy, and did not mention any Jewish conspiracy.

You should really take time to dig deeper into these smears instead of taking them at face value and shutting down valid criticism.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #96)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:54 PM

106. Who are you to suggest that I'm taking things "at face value" and have not dug deeply enough?

How does Glen Greenwald's tweet change the smear inherent in her tweet? It does not. The effort to shut down criticism of Israel is wrong, but so is her tweet.

Valid criticism is one thing. But she did not offer valid criticism. She suggested that support for Israel is "all about the Benjamins."

Perhaps you should take time to dig deeper into why that is offensive...

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #106)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:48 PM

108. Her tweet is nothing noteworthy

when it comes to the corrupting influence of money in politics. The same goes for the lobby that has demanded unquestioning support for Israel. I'm sorry you are unable to make that distinction, choosing instead to make appeals to antisemitism where none exists.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:49 PM

109. And I'm sorry that you cannot see the problem

with evoking one of Hitler's favorite tropes, especially in a time when there is already a rise in anti-Semitism, mere months after the deadliest anti-Semitic attack in US history, in a time when Jews feel vulnerable, and where there have to be security guards at synagogues.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #109)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 12:09 AM

110. Criticizing lobbyist money

is not antisemitism.

The pro-Likudnik crowd neither gets nor deserves an exemption. Deal with it.

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:06 AM

38. Not initially. That was her second tweet.

The first one was simply "it's all about the Benjamins, baby"

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Response to George II (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:07 AM

39. ?

please enlighten me.

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Response to Dennis Donovan (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:29 AM

43. The tweets in question were posted all over DU yesterday.

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Response to George II (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:33 AM

44. Thanks!

I wasn't monitoring DU as much yesterday so I guess I missed them.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:26 AM

23. THIS. Israel's government is controlled by strong

to extremist conservatives and, under their influence, has been doing many things we should be condemning and using what power we have to at least limit. But they're the same kind of people causing trouble there who are trying to tear our nation apart here, and in every other nation where we see these things happening.

The Republicans believe 165,000 slots for refugee internment camps at the border are not enough and that we need many thousands more. What's not to understand about the similarities?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:58 AM

15. Well, Speaker Pelosi

did the reprimand for a reason. People who generally support Israel's current policies seldom take criticism lying down. The fact that the criticism is coming from a woman with a Muslim head scarf probably makes it more tempting to fight back.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:04 AM

16. Excellent point, we had no problem calling

out South Africa’s appartied so the same abhorrent behaviour should be called out here as well.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:15 AM

18. Remember, Republicans want to divide us over Israel and Judaism.

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Response to EndGOPPropaganda (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:21 AM

20. Yup

Israel forcing the Palestinian people into an open air ghetto is disgraceful. Yes, Israel has a right to exist and so does Palestine. This is not anti-Semitic, it’s called being a human being.

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Response to ouija (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:27 AM

24. The GOP strategy, from Bari Weiss to McCarthy, is to get us to fight

to get us to fight over Israel and Jews.

The current Israeli government is horrible and authoritarian. The problem is Netanyahu and Likud. Many average Israelis are good people.

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Response to EndGOPPropaganda (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:05 AM

37. And as usual Democrats took the bait

It was pretty evident right here on DU yesterday. Sometimes a reference to money is just about money and in this case it was about corruption and foreign influence.

Bibi plays that anti-Semitic card to his advantage over and over again and mocks us in the process. He was openly disrespectful to Obama and Biden on more than one occasion and if we complained, we weren't being supportive of a Jewish state. Netanyahu is just another right-wing con artist and he will keep pulling our strings if we let him.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:30 AM

25. And it is important that people grasp that with intellectual clarity

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:47 AM

29. As a congresswoman, Omar has no excuse for her shocking ignorance.

Before she opened her mouth on this subject, she should have studied it. She would quickly have learned about the very deep Christian basis for America's support for the return of Jews to the holy lands. This return was promised in the Bible and had been embedded in Christian beliefs for many centuries before the establishment of a Jewish state. Our founding fathers also studied and drew from Hebrew history as they mused over what forms our new governments should take.

My husband's Jewish, and he and I both believe, seemingly like Omar, that America should be calling out and at least refusing to support evil actions wherever they are. Omar at 37 is worrisomely old, though, to not recognize the signature harms that hard-core right wingers always inflict on targets of their enmity when they get power, in Israel as well as everywhere else they have. Including right here right now.

So while Omar foolishly blamed Jews in the U.S. and Israel, and hopefully gotten a lesson that's taken, we target blame at evildoers and their enablers -- especially nonvoters wherever they are who refuse to stand against great evils. It couldn't happen without them.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:45 PM

68. Point to where Omar specifically named Jews

"So while Omar foolishly blamed Jews in the U.S. and Israel"

I keep seeing this phrase over and over again, and it's always based on a scaremongering interpretation of her tweets.

Perhaps the only ones ignorant are Omar's detractors.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:01 PM

70. Sophistry a bit? Point to where "Israel" and references to venality

aren't both extremely commonly used separately and together by antisemites, both overtly and as dogwhistles for hypocritical versions who want to make SURE all listeners don't mistake their message while pretending to be respectable.

The question is how much bigotry was revealed by her comment, a mild environmental layer shocking her when pointed out and easily displaced by new awareness, or deep-set, determined malice. Not that it was not bigoted. It was.

Door's open to her basically being a pretty decent person, and let's tentatively ascribe it to environment, not her basic wiring; but 37 makes her a slow learner.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:09 PM

72. You can't point to where Omar specifically referenced Jews

All you are doing is reading too deeply in what are at most foreign/domestic policy concerns.

You say, without evidence, that her comments are bigoted and malicious, which is not a good look for you.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #72)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:15 PM

73. Then it's a bad look for our Democratic Party leadership,

all but antisemitic observer groups. And even for the pretenses of opportunistic Republicans who called for her resignation based on this one comment (to which our people said of course not).

Seemingly it's also a bad look for Rep. Omar herself as she has apologized with every appearance of sincerity.

Republicans excepted, I think I'm in good company.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:21 PM

74. Ad populum arguments are rhetorical fallacies

People are characterizing Omar's comments as antisemitic when they are clearly not. It's time we think for ourselves instead of being caught up in spin.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:34 PM

75. If you'd like to wait for the National Council of Churches to

weigh in, feel free. Slow is the word of the moment.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #74)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:36 PM

77. If you'd like to wait for the National Council of Churches to

weigh in, having already dismissed the Democratic Party's principles, and of course the population at large, feel free. Slow will be the word of the moment.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:55 AM

32. Exactly. Im shocked how we treat criticism of them as anti semitic.

Its the stupidest thing I have seen.

They AIPAC and Israel are so sensitive. I think I read where they have even placed laws into states that prevent any anti Israel policies or speaking out against Israel.

Not even USA is protected as much as Israel is in our country. CRAZY.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:15 AM

41. It is possible to criticize Israel without invoking antediluvian anti-semitic tropes, yes?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:45 PM

69. It depends on where you put the goalposts n/t

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:35 PM

76. And how often you keep moving them...

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:06 PM

71. Not when any criticism is simply labeled as anti-Semitic, no (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:37 PM

89. That seems like a straw man

Are there figures of note who say all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic?


When Trump told a group of wealthy Jewish Republican donors he didn't need their money was he invoking anti-semitic tropes?

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #89)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:14 PM

98. They don't say "all", they simply say it individually about every single example

That's literally AIPAC's job

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Response to Recursion (Reply #98)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:39 PM

100. AIPAC's mission is to attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:41 AM

46. Like many countries including Russia & the US

the government actions do not always follow the views of its citizens. Add religion to the mix and things just get worse.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:46 AM

48. Similarly, if you disagree with Fat Donnie's policies, it does not make you a Trump-hater,

which is the logic the Right uses to disregard anything liberals say.

On the other hand, I hate Trump as a miserable excuse for a human being whose sole contribution to mankind is that he has proven the adage, "In America, anyone can become president."

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:46 AM

49. True. But at the same time, the criticism must use a scalpel, not a kitchen knife.

Because many Jewish people regard Israel as their beloved homeland. In fact, I had a liberal Jewish neighbor who referred to Israel as "the homeland," instead of "Israel." And he didn't even practice the Jewish religion.

But it's our duty to criticize any country for influencing our government. It must be done, if true. And the one doing the criticizing needs to expect kickback about being anti-semitic, because whether true or not, that charge will be made by those who want the situation to continue.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:06 AM

50. It's the policies, not the people

Since the Palestinian people are also semitic, Israel's policies toward them is also anti-semitic.
And yet, we are not allowed to criticize Israel for being exactly what they accuse their critics of being.
The fact that 10's of millions of dollars are spent in each US election to insure our politicians support the Israeli government is conveniently overlooked by the recipients of all this money.
The howl of anti-semitism is used to prevent any reasonable discussion of this.

Pat Phillips

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:11 AM

51. In a nutshell

Thank you.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:13 AM

52. Agreed

The courts here in the US have found that support of the BDS movement is a matter of free speech. They've found states and other government entities cannot withhold contracts or employment for supporters.

It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the actions of a nation. I doubt anyone here is going to say it's anti-Muslim or anti-Arabic to criticize the actions of Saudi Arabia.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:13 AM

53. Israel and the Israeli government are not one and the same

There is much opposition to Netaniahu and his policies in Israel. Lumping all the people of Israel into one homogenous group targeted for criticism may indeed be anti-semitic.

We have to be mindful of the context.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:18 AM

55. I agree. Being anti-Israeli policies, and being anti-Semitic

are two different things.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:26 AM

59. How Much Anti Semitism Does Having Snipers Shoot Protesting Children

 

Cause?

Its Catch 22.

If you complain yer Anti Semitic.

Bibi is a crook.

If you say it you are Anti Semitic.

I am getting tired of the smell of the Catch 22.

AIPAC Is there to cover the smell.

I cant even tell the truth here about how my family feels about how Palestinians are treated. I would be banned.

Just put yourself in their shoes for one second.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:19 AM

60. But the US Government generally backs the Israeli Government

in every situation.

We can argue the reasons for the uncritical support, and there is no question that AIPAC donates heavily to influence US lawmakers, but it is a fact that critics of the Israeli Government are often called anti-Semites.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #61)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:37 PM

78. Because that isn't in the news?

What is your point?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:53 AM

65. While true, the situation is more complicated than that.

Israel is a country founded in what was historically considered the Jewish homeland. It was founded as a response to centuries of pushing by Jewish people for a homeland where Jews would not be systematically oppressed.

You are right that Israel is not a race or religion but the majority of the people who live in Israel are Jewish and Israel is set up as a Jewish State and Judaism influences policies and practices.

You can certainly criticize the policies and actions of the Israeli government without being antisemitic. The challenge is to do so without using stereotypical or inflammatory language.

Even doing so, you will likely get push back from somewhere and that push back will likely include suggesting that criticizing Israel is being antisemitic because some people attach a fundamental link between the State of Israel and Judaism. Others use it more cynically to shift the conversation from the actions of the government to the motives of the critic.

Also, ALL countries have questionable policies, not just Israel.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #65)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:13 PM

82. "Also, ALL countries have questionable policies, not just Israel."

But the US doesn't bend over backward for all of them.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #82)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:04 PM

95. No. Not all, just the ones that give us things we really want.

Like an attack dog and base of operations in a vital region of the world. We bend over backwards for some, deal with regimes that have horrific human rights records etc...

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:23 PM

66. Europeans came to the "New World" and took the land from the indigenous people.

The UN took the land where Jews and Arabs lived and made a new country without the permission of the majority of people living there. As far as can be determined, what is now Israel is part of what used to be Phoenicia. It has been ruled by many different people through wars as the U.S. did in the Southwest. Now Israel is increasing its size through allowing Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Does that give them the right to take over someone else's land?

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:39 PM

79. where are the phonecians?

Where are the philistines, the amorites, the hitites, the Byzantines, the canannites, the ottomans, the babalonians?

All gone, except the Jewish tribe and some remnants of other indigenous groups like the Samaritans.

The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel, Judea and Samaria. The Arabs are indigenous to Arabia. Our rights are described in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with all indigenous groups like NAs and First Peoples of Canada. There is no difference.

The Palestinian Arabs and their supporting Arab countries lost a war of Genocide against the early Zionists are were rewarded with refugee status and concurrent payments. Interestingly the nazis were not given refugee status after WW2 and no one seemed to care when the west and Russia carved up Germany, in violation of international law.

If anyone owes the Palestinians anything it's Jordan and GB, the Israelis have tried time after time to work things out, even ceding land, to no avail.

You know the real irony here is that Israel liberated Palestine in 1967 from Jordan and Egypt after the Arabs second attempt at genocide failed, no one seemed to care when they illegally annexed the west bank and Gaza, wonder why.

If Israel hadn't liberated Palestine in 1967 there would be no such thing as a Palestinian, they would be Jordanian or Egyptian.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:58 PM

81. Israel is the result of European anti-Semitism

Why the Arab population of Palestine, which accounted for the vast majority of people living there right up through 1947, should have been amenable about being stuck with that bill is something you might want to layer into your shaky historical account.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:26 PM

84. not even close to the truth

This is where liberals seem to go off the rails.

Jews were living in Israel when the British were fighting off Romans. Your own messiah was living in JUDEA as a JEW in the year 1.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Arabs conquered Israel, Levant and Mahgreb?

It's the real history.

Stop making excuses for Arab imperialism.



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Response to Mosby (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:08 PM

87. Lol, ok

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #87)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:56 PM

91. not a fan of history?

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Response to Mosby (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:35 PM

85. The Jewish people are not indigenous to what is now Israel.

The Canaanites or Phoenicians, either name were the first people in the region, they were the indigenous people of the region. The Jewish people came after them while the Phoenicians were still there. The Phoenicians had a very rich history. Ceding land, look at a map of 1948 and one of 2019. The Jews call it a war of genocide, the Muslims call it trying to keep from losing their land. It was the Jews that liked to bomb places like the King David Hotel in 1946, before there was an Israel. Do you believe that the Israelis should keep building settlements on Arab land? Kind of like White people kept building on indigenous peoples' land.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:11 PM

88. science proves you wrong

What's left of the canaanites are in Lebanon, we know that via genetic testing. The Phoenicians are completely gone, if they survived like the Jews they would have claims in the Levant.

You know there used to be a tribe in NE AZ and NM called the Anasazi and yet no one claims that the Zuni, Hopi and Pueblo Indians stole their land like your claiming Jews did to the Phoenicians.

Funny how people like yourself don't seem to give a shit about the homelands of the Kurds, Hmong, Tibetians or Cyprots. Just the Palestinian Arabs.

To answer your question, I think Jews should be able to live and pray in the WB, JORDAN, Iran, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Egypt, and the gulf.




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Response to Mosby (Reply #88)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:03 PM

94. You don't know me or anything about me.

When were you in Turkey and saw how the Kurds lived? When were you in Vietnam and saw how the Hmong were treated? No, I don't know about all groups, that is impossible. You didn't answer about the Irgun. What about the attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967. Yes I bring that up because those murdered men were the same men I trained with. The Israeli government will do anything it must to further their illegal expansionism in The Occupied Palestinian Territories. The Canaanites are no longer in Canaan because they were driven out by the Jews.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #94)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:55 PM

97. the fact that the likud and a few others engaged in terrorism...

Doesn't change anything I have previously stated. The early Zionists were dealing with folks who wanted to commit genocide and finish the job Hiter started and an occupying force who didn't care either way*.

Your engaging in the logical fallacy called "whataboutism".

Your right I don't know much about you cold war spook, why don't you share with us what exactly your activities were on behalf of the United States of America.

* Martha Gellhorn, Life Magazine 1961:

The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war. Alarming signs, from Egypt, warn us that the Palestinian refugees may develop into more than a justification for cold war against Israel. We ignored Mein Kampf in its day, as the ravings of a lunatic, written for limited home consumption. We ought to have learned never to ignore dictators or their books. Egypt's Liberation, by Gamal Abdel Nasser, deserves careful notice. It is short, low-keyed, and tells us once again that a nation has been ordained by fate to lead--this time, to lead the Arab nations, all Africa, all Islam. The Palestinian refugees are not mentioned, and today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.

.....

At this point, I decided to make one long, determined stand to see whether there was any meeting ground of minds on a basis of mutually accepted facts and reasoning.

"Please bear with me and help me," said I. "I am a simple American, and I am trying to understand how the Arab mind works, and I am finding it very difficult. I want to put some things in order; if I have everything wrong, you will correct me. In 1947, the United Nations recommended the Partition of Palestine. I have seen the Partition map and studied it. I cannot tell, but it does not look to me as if the Arabs were being cheated of their share of good land. The idea was that this division would work, if both Jews and Arabs accepted it and lived under an Economic Union. And, of course, the Arab countries around the borders would have to be peaceful and cooperative or else nothing would work at all. The Jews accepted this Partition plan; I suppose because they felt they had to. They were outnumbered about two to one inside the country, and there were the neighboring Arab states with five regular armies and forty million or more citizens, not feeling friendly. Are we agreed so far?"

"It is right."

"The Arab governments and the Palestinian Arabs rejected Partition absolutely. You wanted the whole country. There is no secret about this. The statements of the Arab representatives, in the UN are on record. The Arab governments never hid the fact that they started the war against Israel. But you, the Palestinian Arabs, agreed to this, you wanted it. And you thought, it seems to me very reasonably, that you would win and win quickly. It hardly seemed a gamble; it seemed a sure bet. You took the gamble and you lost. I can understand why you have all been searching for explanations of that defeat ever since, because it does seem incredible. I don't happen to accept your explanations, but that is beside the point. The point is that you lost."

"Yes." It was too astonishing; at long last, East and West were in accord on the meaning of words.

"Now you say that you want to return to the past; you want Partition. So, in fact you say, let us forget that war we started, and the defeat, and, after all, we think Partition is a good, sensible idea. Please answer me this, which is what I must, know. If the position were reversed, if the Jews had started the war and lost it, if you had won the war, would you now accept Partition? Would you give up part of the country and allow the 650,000 Jewish residents of Palestine -who had fled from the war--to come back?"

"Certainly not," he said, without an instant's hesitation. "But there would have been no Jewish refugees. They had no place to go. They would all be dead or in the sea."

He had given me the missing clue.

Read the whole thing, this was written before people knew about talking points.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/304203/

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Response to Mosby (Reply #97)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:32 PM

99. Here is a few things you don't know about me.

I am Jewish and no I don't hate the fact I am Jewish. Do I practice my religion? No, I don't practice any religion. I believe in God, I don't believe in religions. I am 75, White and a disabled veteran. Do I believe there will be peace in the Middle East, no, even if there weren't any Jews, there will never be peace in the Middle East. In basic training I was taught to shoot the M-14 and received my expert badge. I never fired or even held a weapon after that. I was in from 63-67 and my records are still flagged. I can tell you that I went to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA where I spent one year learning Russian and getting 23 college credits through UC Berkeley. Even my family did not know what training I had after that or where I was stationed overseas. My unit was the Army Security Agency which if you google it you will see what agency we were assigned to. The problem with Israel and the Palestinians is neither side, at this point, is willing to trust the other side and I do not have a clue what can be done to bring that about. To me, the Democrats and Republicans in this country are having a love affair compared to the Middle East. I said I believe in God, unfortunately I do not believe in human kindness. It is nice to have this give and take with someone who is passionate and intelligent. I mean that.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:25 PM

83. What is so hard to understand?

There are maybe 15 million Jews in the world and the population came damn well near to the brink of extinction 75 years ago. The Holocaust didn't come our of nowhere. It was built on slurs and libel like "Jews control all the money and politicians", That is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Any whiff of this thinking coming back into the mainstream is lethal and has to be combatted. Perhaps Omar didn't mean to tap into such history, and I hope she sees the danger of this kind of language, but as Progressives we can't not confront the implications of it.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:58 PM

86. I look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as the longest running civil war in history.

The Palestinians, who are probably the most genetically connected to the Jewish population during the Roman occupation (its a myth, the entire population was forcibly evacuated, majority was...significant amount was not and was confined to the proper of Judah, that is half the area of modern day Israel...and I'm being generous) vs. Israel which is predominately populated by the diaspora who returned after almost 2000 years.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 06:37 PM

101. From J Street

Attacks on Israel are not anti-Semitic


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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 07:15 PM

102. Agreed. This carp we are today is I sanity

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