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Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:16 PM

Criticizing AIPAC is not anti-Semitic and it's absurd that this even needs to be said.


Dave Zirin

As a Jew, I want to welcome anyone who wants to criticize a lobbying coalition funded by arms manufacturers, evangelical Christians, and allies of the right wing edge of Israeli politics. Criticizing AIPAC is not anti-Semitic and it’s absurd that this even needs to be said.

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Reply Criticizing AIPAC is not anti-Semitic and it's absurd that this even needs to be said. (Original post)
jodymarie aimee Feb 12 OP
Callado119 Feb 12 #1
spanone Feb 12 #3
wellst0nev0ter Feb 12 #5
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #7
leftynyc Feb 12 #12
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #15
leftynyc Feb 12 #17
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #20
leftynyc Feb 12 #26
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #28
leftynyc Feb 12 #35
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #41
leftynyc Feb 12 #43
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #46
disillusioned73 Thursday #120
cab67 Feb 12 #40
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #53
cab67 Feb 12 #55
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #56
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #62
lapucelle Feb 12 #66
Nonhlanhla Feb 12 #73
watoos Feb 12 #33
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #44
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #76
Blue_true Feb 12 #85
packman Feb 12 #24
leftynyc Feb 12 #31
still_one Wednesday #102
lapucelle Feb 12 #68
spedtr90 Feb 12 #37
leftynyc Feb 12 #42
lapucelle Feb 12 #71
Blue_true Feb 12 #84
Takket Wednesday #109
lapucelle Feb 12 #57
onit2day Feb 12 #59
lapucelle Feb 12 #63
Proud Liberal Dem Feb 12 #86
lapucelle Wednesday #93
Proud Liberal Dem Wednesday #105
lapucelle Wednesday #110
Blue_true Feb 12 #87
lapucelle Wednesday #92
Blue_true Wednesday #107
lapucelle Wednesday #108
Blue_true Wednesday #112
lapucelle Thursday #113
Blue_true Thursday #125
lapucelle Thursday #126
lapucelle Wednesday #94
George II Feb 12 #8
spanone Feb 12 #13
Blue_true Feb 12 #83
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #4
leftynyc Feb 12 #14
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #16
leftynyc Feb 12 #18
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #21
Post removed Feb 12 #27
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #32
leftynyc Feb 12 #39
Post removed Feb 12 #75
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #19
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #23
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #25
JonLP24 Feb 12 #34
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #36
leftynyc Feb 12 #49
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #52
leftynyc Feb 12 #60
Blue_true Feb 12 #90
ExciteBike66 Wednesday #96
Blue_true Feb 12 #89
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #48
leftynyc Feb 12 #50
ExciteBike66 Feb 12 #54
leftynyc Feb 12 #61
ExciteBike66 Wednesday #97
Blue_true Feb 12 #88
Adrahil Thursday #121
lapucelle Feb 12 #64
ExciteBike66 Wednesday #95
lapucelle Wednesday #103
ExciteBike66 Wednesday #104
lapucelle Wednesday #106
ExciteBike66 Thursday #115
lapucelle Thursday #117
lapucelle Wednesday #111
ExciteBike66 Thursday #114
lapucelle Thursday #118
Blue_true Feb 12 #81
comradebillyboy Feb 12 #2
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #10
ck4829 Wednesday #99
lapucelle Feb 12 #67
Name removed Feb 12 #6
bitterross Feb 12 #9
Power 2 the People Feb 12 #11
zentrum Feb 12 #22
DirtEdonE Feb 12 #29
TryLogic Feb 12 #30
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #65
leftynyc Feb 12 #70
George II Feb 12 #72
theboss Feb 12 #74
MicaelS Feb 12 #38
DemocratSinceBirth Feb 12 #77
Crowman2009 Feb 12 #45
Chickensoup Feb 12 #47
doctorzuma Feb 12 #51
Vinca Feb 12 #58
rockfordfile Feb 12 #69
ck4829 Wednesday #98
Gothmog Feb 12 #78
Blue_true Feb 12 #91
ck4829 Wednesday #100
backscatter712 Feb 12 #79
grossproffit Feb 12 #80
McCamy Taylor Feb 12 #82
HopeAgain Wednesday #101
pampango Thursday #116
DemocratSinceBirth Thursday #119
Adrahil Thursday #122
DemocratSinceBirth Thursday #123
Adrahil Thursday #124

Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:25 PM

1. It's not but..

Using anti-Semitic dog whistles, which Omar has done on more than one occasion most certainly is.

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Response to Callado119 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:42 PM

3. Cite the 'more than one occasion'

I googled and found no other incident of her 'dog whistles' ????

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Response to spanone (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:57 PM

5. She referenced AIPAC money

that's a no-no because of the poisonous myths of Jews and money. Meaning any criticism of the corrupting effects of money in Israeli advocacy is verboten.

Omar also talked about how Israel "hypnotized" the world during 2012's Gaza offensive, in which 87 Palestinian civilians were killed over four Israelis, but Israel is viewed as the victim.

Once again, we need to tip-toe over how we describe Israel's messaging apparatus due to antisemitic tropes of Jewish black magic.

Basically, Omar's detractors are shutting down legitimate criticisms by linking her to antisemites.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:42 PM

7. But AIPAC IS using money to influence U.S. politics

They're a lobbying group. That's what they do. What I want to know is, why the hell does this or any other foreign lobbying group hold so much power in Washington DC?

Representative government is supposed to represent ITS CITIZENS' INTERESTS, not the interest of foreign powers whose needs may and often do clash with our needs.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000046963&year=2018

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:51 PM

12. How many times does it

need to be pointed out AIPAC IS NOT A FOREIGN LOBBYING GROUP? They're Americans AND they don't themselves donate to candidates. Their members give to whoever they wish. This is part of the reason I don't take criticism against them seriously.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:55 PM

15. Come on now

That's like trump saying there's no collusion with russia.

AIPAC may be an American lobbying group as you say but their support of Israel and lobbying power to get what they want in DC is clearly documented, dual citizenship notwithstanding.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:57 PM

17. Saying they're foreign

when they're American is not denying the obvious as your comparison does. It's clearing up a LIE. Care to make a list of all those with dual citizenship? THIS is another reason I can't take this crap seriously.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:02 PM

20. Listen, I have Jewish family and friends

And the vast majority of them visit Israel regularly and have dual citizenship. If persons with dual citizenship have more influence in Washington than me, I have a problem with that.

I'm an American citizen with nowhere else to go when people with dual citizenship support a foreign government that supports the likes of trump and the gop because they perceive some benefit for themselves while damning my country.

Stop with the reasons you can't take it. I have reasons I can't take it too but I'm presenting information to support my claims instead of calling you a liar.

Israel has a policy on accepting people of the Jewish faith. I'm sure you're aware.

Law of Return
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Are you really going to be like the right wingers and ask me for a data base of dual citizenship America/Israelis? Oh, you already did.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:10 PM

26. I very simply don't believe you

I COULD be a citizen of Israel as could anyone born Jewish (or converted). That doesn't make me a dual citizen and I don't believe the VAST MAJORITY of your Jewish friends have dual citizenship either. MOST of my friends and all of my family are Jewish and only the ones who live in Israel are Israeli citizens. NONE of the Americans are dual citizens. NONE OF THEM.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:12 PM

28. Then I guess they visit Israel every year as tourists

Even though the fact that they're Jewish gives them instant citizenship if they so choose.

You know what? I very simply don't believe you either.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:17 PM

35. The difference being

I don't give a crap what you believe. I know of nobody in my world that has dual citizenship with Israel and yes, I go every couple of years AS A TOURIST. This dual citizenship crap is something I only thought right wingers engage in. This has been a disgusting learning experience.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:20 PM

41. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make

If you, as you said above, "I don't give a crap what you believe" then why should I give a crap about what AIPAC or YOU believe?

You support AIPAC. AIPAC supports Israel. I'm an American. AIPAC and Israel's radical Likud Party helped elect trump.

Why should I give a crap about any of this other than to remove this rank radical conservative partisan organization from American politics?

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:23 PM

43. Removing organizations

who don't think like you do. Hmmmmmmmm actually, I don't support AIPAC and have never given them a dime. That doesn't mean I'm going to let people LIE about them.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:30 PM

46. You keep calling me a liar

And I'm pretty sure that's known as "flaming".

Otherwise, it's clear to just about everyone who and what is going on with lobbying in Washington DC. Including AIPAC. But you seem to view my opposition to organizations who spend big money to pervert our political system as "removing organizations" or some such other nonsense.

That sounds again like someone you tried to compare me to - someone who rails against organizations like the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc.

I wonder who that could be?

Again, check the link in my sig for your answer.

PS - I'm done arguing with you here. It's a waste of time arguing with people who present nothing but insults and dogma.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #41)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 02:50 PM

120. Amen...

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:20 PM

40. actually....

...not every convert can be a citizen of Israel. Only orthodox conversions are recognized.

My wife is Jewish. I've thought about converting, but if I did this through a Reform congregation, the government of Israel would not consider me Jewish.

This doesn't extend to people who were born Jewish and consider themselves Reform or Conservative - they can exercise the Right of Return.

(Minor side issue to your overall point.)

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Response to cab67 (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:47 PM

53. I have a question

My Aunt married a Jewish man and they have two kids. My Aunt has converted through the Reform congregation. Can her kids be citizens of Israel through their father?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:55 PM

55. Don't know, but I suspect they can.

I didn't research it that far.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:57 PM

56. You useless pustule! Just kidding! ;)

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Response to cab67 (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:39 PM

62. How to Become an Israeli Citizen

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:55 PM

66. Why not ask your Aunt? N/T

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:17 PM

73. No, if I understand correctly

Judaism is inherited from the mother, not the father.

To the extent that the Chief Rabbinate in Israel does not recognize Reform conversions, they would also not recognize her children as Jewish.

It's quite a point of contention, as I understand...

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:15 PM

33. You make an excellent point,

At one point AIPAC was the #1 lobbying group, I don't know where they rank now. I'm probably going to get into trouble using this example but here goes; regarding dual citizenship. I forget the name of the Russian who donated millions of dollars to Republicans and he will probably get away with it because he has dual citizenship. It isn't so much of a problem when one is a dual citizen of Israel and the U.S. but it is a big problem for people who are Russian/Americans.

The laws need changed that allow dual citizens to donate to pacs. There needs to be more regulations.

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Response to watoos (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:26 PM

44. Len Blavatnik?

Among many others, I'm certain.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:58 PM

76. My aunt visited Israel twice. I have never met a Jew with dual citizenship.

I'm scared to google "how many Jews have dual citizenship" ?

Since you brought it up perhaps you have the figure?


Thank you in advance.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:34 PM

85. They might as well be foreign. They lobby for the interest of one and only one country.

Our representatives are OUR representatives, their JOB is to protects ALL of the interests of ALL of the citizens of THIS country.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:07 PM

24. Sorry, have to call you on that -

WHILE IT IS TRUE AIPAC is limited in what it can spend on direct lobbying, it spends the majority of its funds on directing and pointing congresspeople to groups that support AIPAC and Israel views influencing them and having them spend their funds on them. In other words, it acts as a funnel - and that is wrong--

From source cited below:

"AIPAC itself does not make political contributions and is in fact legally prohibited from doing so. Instead it uses its considerable resources ($3 million annual lobbying budget) to link current and aspiring members of Congress with pro-Israel donors. AIPAC’s projection of invincibility encourages political candidates and officeholders to accept pro-Israel contributions or risk seeing those funds go to their opponents. For example, former Congressman Paul Findley and former Senator Charles Percy lost their seats for failure to adhere to the AIPAC line.

A 2016 article on that deceitful practice - smoke and mirrors

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/03/22/the-best-congress-aipac-can-buy/

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Response to packman (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:15 PM

31. LOL - so those two

are blaming 2% of the population for their losses in congress? Sounds like what Cynthia McKinney tried. That story is nonsense. And it does nothing to address that people here are under the thoroughly misguided impression that AIPAC is 1. a political action committee and 2. foreign. If they can't get the minor crap right, why should I listen to them about anything?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 08:16 AM

102. Interesting that one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the U.S. is many times igored

Saudi Arabia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia_lobby_in_the_United_States

Why some seem to be fixated on the "evils" of the lobbying of AIPAC, and seem to minimize other lobbying groups over AIPAC, makes me wonder


The killing of Jamal Khashoggi, and hesitation of the U.S. to act, is one small example of the influence of the lobbying of Saudi Arabia in the U.S., and that influence has been going on for decades.

Of course we also have the PHARMA lobby which sure hasn't helped with the price of drugs, long with other lobbying groups.

The point I am making is shouldn't the influence of ALL lobbying be frowned upon, not just the ones people don't agree with?

Those self-identified progressives who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee in 2016 helped mold the Supreme Court which opened the door to Citizens United, and the influence of even more money in politics.

I find it interesting that some don't seem to understand why Representative Omar's tweet was offensive to some.

In fact, some identify themselves as Jewish, or married to a Jewish person, as though that identification makes them an authority why it shouldn't be offensive is a fallacious argument. Justice Thomas happens to be an African American, but isn't particularly sensitive the issues of the African American plight in this country.

Being critical of the Israeli government is not necessarily anti-Jewish, nor are advocates for the BDS, but when using terms toward it that have the same vernacular as The Protocols of Zion, and other anti-Jewish verbiage, or implication pointing to "Jews and money",
that starts to cross a line.

The association of Jews and money has always been a favorite theme of those who are anti-Jewish. The stereotypes have run rampant for decades in this country.

Ironically, Trump caused a similar controversay during his 2016 campaign when he tweeted an image depicting Clinton, cash and the Star of David, and no doubt that was a dog whistle to those who harbor anti-Jewish sentiments in the country, in the same way as his racist, bigoted statements were to those who share those "values"

If one is against lobbyists, one should be against all lobbyists, not just the one's they disagree with?

There was a reason that Representative Omar apologized, and that was a good thing, though interestingly enough when asked about comments from 2012 regarding Israel's powers of hypnosis" she said she didn't understand why it was offensive. As a NY Times editorial points out:

"The conspiracy theory of the Jew as the hypnotic conspirator, the duplicitous manipulator, the sinister puppeteer is one with ancient roots and a bloody history. In the New Testament, it is a small band of Jews who get Rome — then the greatest power in the world — to do their bidding by killing Christ. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, speaks to the Jews about Jesus in the book of John: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your own law.” But the Jews punt the decision back to Pilate: “We are not permitted to put anyone to death.” And so Pilate does the deed on their behalf. In the book of Matthew, the implications of this manipulation are spelled out: “His blood is on us and our children,” the Jews say — a line that has been so historically destructive that even Mel Gibson cut it from his “Passion of the Christ.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opinion/ilhan-omar-israel-jews.html

So yes, there is sensitivity to that, just as there was sensitivity among African Americans, and Northam's yearbook

We get into problems though, when assertions are made to question a congress persons dual loyalties just because of a position they take on an issue. Ironically, that same argument could be hurled against those who are making those "dual loyalty" accusations

The problem isn't disagreements on issues, that is a fact of life, the problem as I see it is a double standard on a lot of things.



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Response to packman (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:00 PM

68. This L. Michael Hager?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:17 PM

37. They have a Congressional Club on their website

To join, members must

• Make a minimum financial commitment of $2,500 a year, or $5,000 per two-year election cycle, to pro-Israel politics
• Commit to giving political contributions in a clearly pro-Israel context to candidates running for the United States House of Representatives and/or United States Senate


Interesting interviews / documentary here: https://theintercept.com/2019/02/11/ilhan-omar-israel-lobby-documentary/

A few quotes below. Really, the names of countless organizations could be substituted for AIPAC; which was Omar's point.

Eric Gallagher, a top official at AIPAC from 2010 to 2015: “Getting $38 billion in security aid to Israel matters, which is what AIPAC just did,” he notes at one secretly recorded lunch. “Everything AIPAC does is focused on influencing Congress.”

David Ochs, founder of HaLev, which helps send young people to AIPAC’s annual conference, described for the reporter how AIPAC and its donors organize fundraisers outside the official umbrella of the organization, so that the money doesn’t show up on disclosures as coming specifically from AIPAC.

“Congressmen and senators don’t do anything unless you pressure them. They kick the can down the road, unless you pressure them, and the only way to do that is with money,”
“So we want the Jewish community to go face to face in this small environment, 50, 30, 40 people, and say this is what’s important to us. We want to make sure that if we give you money that you’re going to enforce the Iran deal. That way, when they need something from him or her, like the Iran deal, they can quickly mobilize and say look we’ll give you 30 grand. They actually impact,”

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Response to spedtr90 (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:21 PM

42. OMG

So the leader of a group boasts (unrightfully) about their power. Wait a minute, I need to head to the fainting couch.

Whew, that was close. I almost didn't read about how 30-50 people can make presidential policy (suuurrrreeeee).

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:15 PM

71. All sorts of folks "knowledgeable" about dual citizenship, "foreign" influence,

and apocryphal "termination offense" clauses in state employment contracts seem to have found their way to this thread. And so many note that they are simply relying on information provided by helpful Jewish friends and relatives. What are the chances?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:31 PM

84. AIPAC functions as a lobbying group with the interests of one foreign country front and center. nt

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:11 PM

109. what is the goal (mission statement) of AIPAC?

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:01 PM

57. Look at all the hearts you have!

You've made so many friends in the 23 days that you've been on DU!



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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:24 PM

59. Of course it is, it's a lobbying group. Several states have made it a termination offense

to criticize AIPAC. They are a racist group of monstrous proportion working toward Palestinian domination and genocide...and we or our gov. aids in funding this enterprise. Me and my Jewish friends have just been ignoring them but after Gaza we need to point them out with a bright light.

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Response to onit2day (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:48 PM

63. What state has made it a "termination offense" to criticize AIPAC? N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 02:50 PM

105. Not specifically AIPAC but Israel

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:14 PM

110. Where's the part of the statute governing the contract that prohibits criticizing Israel?

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:55 PM

87. A teacher in either Texas or Oklahoma recently lost his or her job for

refusing to sign a contract that stipulated that he or she could not advocate divestiture in companies that do certain business with Israel. I think the divestiture aims at only arms suppliers and the likes, not human service companies.

If I remember correctly, the teacher and the ALCU are in Court to get his or her job back.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #87)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 05:30 AM

92. It was not a teacher; it was a speech pathologist who worked as a private contractor.

And it is not a prohibition against "criticizing AIPAC" as the poster claimed; it is a prohibition against boycotting Israel.

I'm on the ACLU's side on this, but facts matter.

https://patch.com/texas/downtownaustin/texas-governor-signs-law-banning-state-business-companies-boycotting-israel

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/85R/billtext/pdf/HB00089I.pdf

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 05:58 PM

107. The principle of punishing Americans for voicing opposition to the actions of a foreign government

also matters. NO FIRING AMERICANS FOR VOICING ANY LEGITIMATE OPPOSITION TO ISRAELI POLICIES OR GROUPS THAT SUPPORT THOSE POLICIES. Clear enough?

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #107)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:09 PM

108. I'm quite clear on what the statute says and exactly what comprises a boycott.

No one is being fired for "voicing opposition to Israeli policies".

CHAPTER 808.
PROHIBITION ON INVESTMENT IN COMPANIES THAT BOYCOTT ISRAEL
SUBCHAPTER A.
GENERAL PROVISIONS

Sec. A808.001.AA DEFINITIONS. In this chapter: (1) AA "Boycott Israel" means refusing to deal with, terminating business activities with, or otherwise taking any action that is intended to penalize, inflict economic harm on, or limit commercial relations specifically with Israel, or with a person or entity doing business in Israel or in an Israeli-controlled territory, but does not include an action made for ordinary business purposes.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #108)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:46 PM

112. The statue must be changed because it violates the First Amendment.

Boycotting is protected speech, I really don't care that you disagree, but it is. The worker that was fired has sued, that worker is in for a big payday and rightfully so.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #112)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 05:34 AM

113. The constitutional issues are complex, and the statute is being challenged.

The independent contractor was not fired; her employment was not renewed because she refused to sign the new contract.

This is not about my opinion. It's about getting the facts right.

Facts matter.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #113)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 07:02 PM

125. No renewal for the reason that it happened is firing.

That pig can't be dressed up.

The stature should go down in flames, it violates constitutional guarantees to freedom of association and freedom of speech. She was not violating anyone's rights not threatening anyone that lives under OUR constitution, the one the governs whether that stature is legal. I hope that she sues the pants off people once she wins.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #125)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 08:11 PM

126. I'm confident that the courts will take your opinion under advisement. N/T

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #87)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 05:51 AM

94. Academic, business, and cultural boycotts are part of the movement. N/T

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Response to spanone (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:46 PM

8. For one, this, in 2012:

"Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."

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Response to George II (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:53 PM

13. thanks! 👍🏼

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Response to spanone (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:28 PM

83. She didn't even do a dog whistle this time.

Her only mistake was not calling out AIPAC out of the gate.

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Response to Callado119 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:54 PM

4. But the whole criticism of any PAC comes down to money, doesn't it?

PACs exist to spend money influencing candidates, but now we are told that we cannot criticize a certain PAC for doing that.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:53 PM

14. Sigh

They're NOT a PAC. Their name is AMERICAN ISRAEL PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE. Not a political action committee. I swear, it's hard to take all this trashing seriously when so many don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:56 PM

16. I call my dog my baby

But she's still a dog.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:58 PM

18. Is that supposed to mean something?

They're NOT a pac - just suck it up, admit you were wrong and get on with your life.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:05 PM

21. I never admit I'm wrong

Based on anyone telling me I'm wrong.

Read my posts above for your answer to whose wrong.

Then get on with your life. I'll get on with mine when I'm through helping get rid of the guy Netanyahu and AIPAC helped put in the White House.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #21)


Response to Post removed (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:15 PM

32. You need to re-read my post

I know someone these days who never bothers to READ before making a fool of himself.

And I don't need a minute to remember who he is.

He's at the link in my sig.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:19 PM

39. I just reread it and stand by

everything in my post. It's you that obviously didn't read MY post as I said I was the one who needed to remember, not you. I guess when you can't tell the difference between who's and whose, that's an easy mistake to make.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #39)


Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:59 PM

19. From wiki:

"The group does not raise funds for political candidates itself, but its members raise money for candidates through PACs AIPAC helped establish and by other means.[7]"

They are not themselves a PAC, but they are involved with PACs. I see little distinction.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:05 PM

23. Yep. Tomato. Tomahto. nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:09 PM

25. Just to be clear I'm for closing down K Street altogether

Our representative form of government is supposed to represent US - its constituents. This entire lobbying thing is nothing more than a criminal enterprise. They're paying off our elected representatives to pass legislation to help themselves and hurt us.

K Street needs to be vacated and we need an investigation of ALL the money that's been changing hands and changing our way of government.

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:16 PM

34. I had to log in just to give this post a +1

I couldn't agree more.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:17 PM

36. THANK YOU! nt

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:40 PM

49. That you don't see a distinction

in calling something that is not a pac a pac is seriously not my problem.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:45 PM

52. The point is that it is the same thing

If the NRA sent out a letter to its members asking them to donate the some Republican PAC, we would consider that an attempt by the NRA to influence (i.e. "buy", in the parlance of our times) a politician.

AIPAC is no different in that regard. One can easily criticize AIPAC for trying to influence politicians, because...that is AIPAC's job.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #52)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:29 PM

60. It's COMPLETELY different

The NRA uses member's due to give to politicians. AIPAC does NOTHING like that at all. And why? Because they're NOT a pac. I'm finding it very interesting that of all the thousands of (literally thousands) of organizations out there who have a point of view, it's AIPAC that garners the most vicious contempt.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:08 PM

90. The NRA is a PAC? No joke, that is news to me.

I honestly see no difference between the NRA and AIPAC in how they use members to bring pressure on people that are in government. Yes, I despise AIPAC as much as I dislike the NRA, both are vile rightwing organizations that don't have the USA's best interests at heart.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:14 AM

96. You are pretty far off base if you think AIPAC garners the most contempt.

Case in point: the NRA. Also, the Koch brothers are far more likely to be held in contempt around here.

Anyway, I already pointed out that AIPAC has actually created PACs for it's members to give to. I hereby totally apologize for calling AIPAC a PAC. I now call AIPAC a PAC-creator. Thank you ever so much for teasing out this tough issue.

That said, AIPAC still exists to influence politicians. Thus, Omar's tweet is still relevant even if AIPAC is not literally handing money over to said politicians (which would be illegal even for a PAC, by the way).

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:03 PM

89. I agree with the poster that you are responding to.

In it's very essence, AIPAC functions as a PAC. That is somehow craftily avoided that designation does not mean anything in a moral sense.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:37 PM

48. Haven't heard back from you on my prior response.

You were saying how it sucks that so many don't know what they are talking about?

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:42 PM

50. Gee - so sorry for having a life

and not spending every second waiting for anonymous posters to respond to me. I mean seriously, it was less than an hour.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #50)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:48 PM

54. You're all over this comment thread

it seems your a bit worked up over the issue.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:29 PM

61. And what does that have

to do with you expecting me to be here every second?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #61)


Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:58 PM

88. Why aren't they the American Public Affairs Committee.

Heaven knows we have plenty problems here that need solutions. The name gives them away, IMO.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #14)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 03:32 PM

121. They call themselves "America's pro Israel Lobby"

And they promote a specific legislative agenda. While they are NOT a PAC (as you correctly point out), they aren't much different than any other K-street lobby firm.

But in general,. I am not super keen on lobbies representing foreign countries and find it perplexing that Americans are promoting the interests of a foreign power.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:53 PM

64. Who told you that you can't criticize the PAC in question? Do you have a quote or a link? N/T

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #64)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:11 AM

95. Leftynyc made it clear

Omar tweeted that AIPAC buys politicians. My point is that all PACs do this, and that AIPAC is pretty much a PAC (not technically though). Leftynyc seems to think otherwise.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #103)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 12:03 PM

104. This has been covered here.

AIPAC is not a PAC itself, but they started PACs specifically for their members to donate to.

Please do not pretend AIPAC doesn't spend millions of dollars a year to influence politicians, and exhort it's members to give millions more to PACs and candidates...

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 03:52 PM

106. So AIPAC is not a PAC and it doesn't buy politicians.

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2019, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

Thank you for that clarification.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #106)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 06:34 AM

115. I do not know what AIPA is

but here is this again, since you missed it:

Please do not pretend AIPAC doesn't spend millions of dollars a year to influence politicians, and exhort it's members to give millions more to PACs and candidates...

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #115)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 11:37 AM

117. Your post agreed with the claim that AIPAC "buys politicians".

because "all PACS do this" (even though you now admit that you were wrong about AIPAC being a PAC).

Omar tweeted that AIPAC buys politicians. My point is that all PACs do this, and that AIPAC is pretty much a PAC (not technically though).

"All PACS buy politicians, including AIPAC which is not a PAC" is neither cogent nor true. I'm glad I didn't say it.



https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11814185

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:34 PM

111. Where has it been "covered" that "all PACS buy politicians"?

Act Blue, Democracy for America, Vote Run Lead, Democratic Socialists of America, and Justice Democrats are all PACS. Where has it been "covered" that they "buy politicians"?

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 06:33 AM

114. Holy f-ing s**t, do you even know what a PAC does?

Do you know why PACs were created in the first place? They only exist because individuals and corporations are limited in donating directly to candidates. Even "blue" pacs do this.

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Response to ExciteBike66 (Reply #114)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 11:42 AM

118. You mean PACS like Democracy for America, Justice Democrats, and Democratic Socialists of America?

Yes I do know what they do. The claim that "they only exist because individuals and corporations are limited in donating directly to candidates" is facile and ill-advisedly sweeping, as well as incorrect.

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Response to Callado119 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:26 PM

81. What dog whistles have she used?

AIPAC is garbage, in no way are they a progressive's friend.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:28 PM

2. AIPAC looks like an agent of the Republican party to me.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:49 PM

10. Remember when

The gop traitors invited a foreign leader to the USA without even notifying President Obama?

That was Netanyahu they invited. The gop traitors and the right wing fanatics in Israel have a LOT in common - so they support each other's efforts.

What a disgrace. NOT IN MY HOUSE ANYMORE.

If the current leadership in Israel thinks trump is good for them then they don't give a damn about how bad he is for us. Just like Les Moonves' statement, "He may be bad for the country but he's great for ratings!" Or words to that effect.

No different. Hooray for me and the hell on you is the message here. Thanks Bebe. Message received.

Rep. Paul Ryan calls GOP’s invitation to Netanyahu ‘absolutely’ appropriate

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/02/01/rep-paul-ryan-calls-gops-invitation-to-netanyahu-absolutely-appropriate/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.57db08438c03

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Response to DirtEdonE (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:28 AM

99. I remember

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:55 PM

67. How so? N/T

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:48 PM

9. Don't play obtuse. You know why.

AIPAC is one of the most influential lobbying groups in the US and our congress people live in fear of its disapproval. CAIR certainly should not be immune from criticism though.

EVERY PAC and lobbying organization should be fair game for criticism. The NAACP, the ACLU, the HRC, all of these should be fair game for criticism. Making criticism of an organization about its constituency when one disagrees with the organzation's actions or out-sized influence is a cop out.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:05 PM

22. Absolutely agree. Thank you.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:14 PM

29. Get ALL the lobbyists out of Washington DC

How about our legislators start representing US for a change?

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:14 PM

30. As an outsider, a non-Jew, it seems to me that...

the accusation of "anti-semitic" pops forth quicker than popcorn on a hot skillet.
Just one person's observation/perception.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:54 PM

65. May I have examples of Jews being too quick to take offense?

As an outsider, a non-Jew, it seems to me that..the accusation of "anti-semitic" pops forth quicker than popcorn on a hot skillet.



And are Jews the only group that labor under this heightened sensitivity?


Thank you in advance.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:12 PM

70. I've asked this question of others

and none have seen fit to answer with any clarity whatsoever. Since I would never presume to tell an African American what should or shouldn't offend them, why shouldn't I expect that same courtesy from those who aren't Jewish?

And honestly, I see more whining about people not being able to speak without being called anti-semites than I see people being accused of anti-semitism. Just an observation.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:15 PM

72. I'm not Jewish, but grew up in a Jewish culture (one of very few non-Jews in our neighborhood)....

....and had Jewish Godparents. I've seen anti-Semitism close up for a long time. I had neighbors with numbers tattooed on their arms. There's a reason why it "pops forth" so quickly. Invariably it is there.

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Response to TryLogic (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:40 PM

74. I mean, it's not like Jews have any historical reason for concern

Because casual anti-Semitism has never led to anything bad.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:18 PM

38. How many other organizations are there like AIPAC?

By that, I mean groups of American citizens who band to together to lobby for aid to a foreign country other than Israel?

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 05:09 PM

77. Turkish Americans, Greek Americans, Armenian Americans.

I assume the Armenians share the same desire as the Israelis not to get genocide(d) again.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:27 PM

45. I'm also pissed that the Democratic party isn't supporting any Israeli left-wing opposition parties.

Especially given the stunt that Nutty-yahoo pulled in congress a few years back.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:36 PM

47. We should kick lobbyists out of washington, no exceptions, and not allow corporation

to influence elections through contributions. Only voters should be allowed to contribute with a dollar ceiling. No pack advertisements period.
Democracy lives and thrives in the light, people, not in dark rooms or dealings under the tables.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:45 PM

51. As an atheist, I sick religions' delusions of grandeur

The beauty of being an atheist is that you can be critical of all religions --I equally criticize jewish, christian and moslem religions and seriously think those who hold evangelical, orthodox, or fundamental beliefs, have the right to do so, but have no right acting in any way that forces any of their beliefs on me.

Remember, two can play this game, as was illustrated by the marxist reeducation camps the soviets used during their time in power to help delusional evangelicals, orthodox and fundamentalists see the light.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:13 PM

58. When I read what she said I pretty much thought the same thing.

I couldn't figure out how that was turned into an anti-Semitic slur. My impression was that it was an indictment of money in politics via the glut of special interest groups. Meanwhile, it's crickets about Trump's "Trail of Tears" comments. It seems he can utter and/or do anything, but all Democrats must walk on egg shells.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 04:01 PM

69. I agree. I don't think criticizing aipac is anti-Semtic.

I think a spy for Israel and a member of the likud party was part of that group. He did a lot of damage to our country.

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Response to rockfordfile (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:28 AM

98. Yep

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 06:43 PM

78. From J Street

J Street is a competitor of AIPAC. Attacks on Israel are not the same as attacks on the Judaism

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:21 PM

91. I never heard of J Street.

Is it possible to provide more information on the group, or start a thread on it?

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:29 AM

100. Excellent info

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:11 PM

79. Agreed. There's a huge difference...

...between criticizing the nation and government of Israel, which damned well should be criticized for their corruption and for their crimes against humanity committed against Palestinians, and attacking people for their religion or ethnicity.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:20 PM

80. This thread has been eye opening and not in a good way.

Disgusted.

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 08:27 PM

82. Wow. DU sure has changed. Ten years ago this thread would have been locked.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #82)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 06:42 AM

101. I guess we are making progress... nt

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Response to jodymarie aimee (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 06:42 AM

116. Indeed. But if one only criticized a Jewish lobby while ignoring other richer, more corrosive

lobbies, that could easily be misinterpreted.

Trump and many on the far-right like to criticize immigrants who commit crimes while ignoring the higher frequency with which good ol' white Americans commit similar crimes. Any criminal deserves criticism. Focusing that criticism solely on the subset of criminals who are immigrants can easily be misinterpreted as being nativist.

Criticizing AIPAC is not in and of itself anti-Semitic. The context is a different matter.

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Response to pampango (Reply #116)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 11:42 AM

119. I don't believe anybody has suggested criticizing AIPAC or Israel is inherently anti-semitic.

Seems like a straw man argument. I support Israel, not its current leadership. As a man of the left how could I support Netanyahu ? It would be like supporting Erdogan , Duterte, Modi, or Trump.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #119)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 03:35 PM

122. Not so sure.

I'm not sure the dude is still on this site, but I have been told before that my criticism of the Israeli government is Antisemetic. That's despite me saying explicitly that I support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself. I am critical of a specific government and it's policies.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #122)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 03:43 PM

123. That is silly. I am very critical of the current Israeli government.

It has zilch to do with how I feel about the nation itself or the Jewish people, of which I am one.

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Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #123)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 03:49 PM

124. Totally agree. Thanks! NT

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