Why does legalizing prostitution only seem to come up when prominent men are charged w/solicitation?

[EffieBlack]

And why does there seem to be more concern about the impact being arrested has on the lives of the johns than the impact of being bought has on the women they paid for?

[MaryMagdaline]

2. Good questions

[Hortensis]

65. Really? Surely not. Prostitution "comes up" all the time.

Just google: "Prostitution" "legalization" "2019" gets 2.3 million hits.

A better question might be why WE on DU follow the MSM's decision of what we should talk about so slavishly? We can talk about anything we want, any time we want. And some do.

Why overall, though, do WE on DU flock to and then drop the last big topic when some new story given salacious interest by a famous name comes up? Flock is the word, whole crowds frivolously swinging this direction, then that from one news moment to another.

Why do WE mostly ignore all the wonderful, thoughtful discussion on the inside pages and instead take passionate "positions" on the "if it bleeds it leads" cover stories? Those who prefer listening get to do it serially while MSNBC talks about some prurient event ad nauseum on every program from 5 a.m. through midnight.

Bring the accusation home where it belongs -- those terrible "they" and "them" are the person in the mirror. The media are just making money off what WE'll watch. And the product We soak up all day is what WE talk about here.

WE dumped starving Puerto Rico like yesterday's soggy salad when the shootings in Las Vegas grabbed our attention instead. And never went back. The MSM knew PR was growing soggy and losing its entertainment value and that it was time to move on, but that was because they know US. And Saturday, Justin Fairfax said the accusations were like being lynched. Justin who?

[MaryMagdaline]

66. If you are not happy with the topic at hand, it seems that you have the beginnings of a good thread

Yes, I think it’s a very good question why sympathy is running to the John and not the sex slave. Sorry, but that’s an important topic for people who care about other human beings. I don’t think anyone here has forgotten about Puerto Rico, babies in cages, Charlottesville or Las Vegas for that matter. If the topic at hand is not one that interests you, there are other discussion threads on DU.

[Hortensis]

68. Sympathy isn't running to the john instead of sex slaves.

No one approves sex slavery except criminal creeps and the criminals who make money off them.

The PROBLEM is that most of the electorate doesn't care enough to care long enough to put a stop to it. Those fighting it, and many in and out of government are passionately, are handicapped more by inadequate caring than everything else put together.

Realizing that we could mostly eradicate it if we chose, here's one thing off the web among millions. It's about human trafficking in general since probably none of us are sex criminals. There's plenty about the sex trade on the web also, and many organizations to join and donate to. What is happening in our own communities?

Electing Democrats at all levels of government is not on this, but of course should be #1, 2 and 3 for all of us.

15 Ways You Can Help Fight Human Trafficking
https://www.state.gov/j/tip/id/help/

And this. Are your local hotels engaging?

Hotel companies step up to fight human trafficking
https://polarisproject.org/blog/2019/01/16/hotel-companies-step-fight-human-trafficking

[DonCoquixote]

3. There should be no tears for the rich johns

and plenty of support for the victims. The area where legalization comes in just makes what he did worse. If he wanted to go somewhere where it was legal, where the Prostitutes have UNIONS and health laws to protect them, it still would have been bad, but at the very least he could have avoided making some mafiosis rich, whose lawyers will gegt them out so they could do worse to the next series of women.

[hunter]

46. These sick clowns can't get it off with women who are not intimidated by them.

They don't hire $5,000 call girls for the same reason they don't travel to places where prostitutes have unions and health laws protecting them.

It's the misery and squalor and hopelessness they get off on.

I'll bet every one of these guys has had a "humiliating" experience with strong women and Viagra that they were never able to laugh off.

[bitterross]

4. Actually, a number of Sex Worker supporters raise the issue constantly.

There is a huge segment of people in the USA who support the rights of people to be sex workers. Now, DO NOT IN ANY WAY confuse this with the people who are doing the sex-trafficking. Who are abusing other humans for profit.

There groups like Sex Workers Outreach Project that work to help people in that industry. It, and others, advocate for de-criminalizing and de-stigmatizing sex work.

The issue is actually being raised all the time. You were pretty close in your title but the reality is it only gets news coverage when rich, white, men or celebrities are charged. Not that it ever goes away for many, many people.

[JackInGreen]

6. +1

[Vinnie From Indy]

28. +1

[hueymahl]

36. Yes, this issue is constantly being raised and advocated for by those in the industry

It is a non-mainstream but very progressive idea. The media only raises it in connection with a big bust, probably because it is so far out of the mainstream. Once we start to hear about in on MSM without their being a bust as the prompt, then we will know it is an idea that is gaining traction.

[RhodeIslandOne]

54. Exactly

Unfortunately there is a segment of the population that dismisses sex workers as either a) human filth or b) damaged and therefore not worthy of being listened to.

[bitterross]

58. The moral righteousness and indignation of people never ends.

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm disappointed I see it here so often.

In my life I've been fortunate enough to get to know people from all walks of life. Once you get to know people it's difficult to speak of them in such broad sweeping terms as I see done so often here and elsewhere.

I wish we, as humans, could make that leap without having to get to know people first. I'm afraid our evolutionary path has precluded that though. We still use our lizard brains to make judgements and then rarely use our higher functions to change those.

[Kaleva]

5. Have you done an advanced search to see if that is actually true?

[4now]

7. Because people don't really care about sex workers

or the things that would make their lives better.

[Blue_true]

9. That is completely wrong. There are sex worker advocacy groups that have been calling for

legalization for many years. They have been fought tooth and nails by religious groups and groups that view any sex selling by a woman as degradation of her, even if the woman in 100% backing the encounter. So, it is religious morality and a "female abuse" advocacy groups that are yelling the loudest and preventing beneficial steps that will allow greater focus on the areas where real abuse and even slavery is taking place.

[Blue_true]

8. I think legalization would make it easier to attack sexual slavery.

The problem is there are a lot of people that don't want legalization, and that is creating a vacuum that traffickers exploit.

[janterry]

33. The research does not support that

in countries where legalization has happened, sexual trafficking has increased.

[Blue_true]

59. Holland is around 1/20th our size, it has 1/85th the problem with trafficked women.

Because prostitution and brothels there are legal and regulated, they can fight trafficking better. Holland is a western democracy, let's compare places where the rule of law is healthy and not pull in places where it is not. Compared to Holland, we fall way short on fighting sexual slavery.

[jberryhill]

10. Why do anti-vaxers come up when there's a measles outbreak?

Why did breast cancer come up when Betty Ford got a mastectomy?

Mysteries abound.

[pnwmom]

19. I think you're missing the point. Sex workers are arrested every day, and there are very few calls

for legalization.

Yet let one billionaire get arrested as a John, and suddenly everyone's talking about legalization.

[jberryhill]

20. What facts show that the incidence of such discussions on DU correlate with high profile busts?

Simply because someone "feels" something doesn't make it true.

This search, on Google, renders 1,750 results:

"prostitution legal site:democraticunderground.com"

Going through those 1750 results, one comes across a number of discussions of prostitution on DU, and it does not seem to be that the incidence of such discussions correlates well with the bust of a prominent "john".

This is much like the recent thread which proposed that there were more discussions of the actor in Chicago than of police shootings or of BLM generally, which was easily proven false by simply counting discussions of those shootings.

People can say anything. Supporting those things with objective facts is another matter entirely.

But these sorts of propositions are thrown out merely as accusations, and are not meant to be an entree to a discussion. The only acceptable answer to the question is simply that DUers as a class are sympathetic to the plight of wealthy white men, and do not care about victims of human trafficking. Pointing out this "fact" makes me morally superior to others here. There, did I correctly answer the question posed by the OP?

Bad, bad DUers. Be ashamed of yourself.

[Empowerer]

21. Lol!

Like a moth to a flame.

[pnwmom]

24. Wow! You went through 1750 results. You've got me there.

Going through those 1750 results, one comes across a number of discussions of prostitution on DU, and it does not seem to be that the incidence of such discussions correlates well with the bust of a prominent "john".

So please, share your analysis.

Of those 1750 posts, what percent of the stories involved a high-profile John?

When a high-profile John was named, in what percent did the discussion come up about legalizing?

And when a person was arrested for selling sex in what percent of the time did the discussion come up about legalizing?



Or did you not really perform any scientific analysis? Were you just giving your impression before, like everyone else?

[LanternWaste]

25. A most creative and imaginative inference.

I'm not at all surprised that was the only interpretation you could produce.

(see? I pretty much did the precise same thing to your post that you did the the OP: insert distinction lacking relevant difference to pretend six of one is different than a half dozen of the other...

[flying_wahini]

31. Bad DU'ers? No you didn't answer it. Just squashed it cuz you could .

[saidsimplesimon]

57. "mysteries abound"

Well, we almost eliminated measles, mumps and chicken pox. I can only surmise that a certain percentage of the world population have a death wish? How would we feed the starving masses? (snark)

[Xolodno]

11. Well...

When someone on, or appears as the "Conservative Religious Right" gets nailed, then the "maybe it should be legalized" get touted out, and the Whataboutism with King David, etc. But once it blows over, is forgotten and is just another libtard idea to bring us closer to hell's fury....while, asking we get closer to hell's fury....yeah, don't ask me to explain that logic.

With that said, legalization isn't the magic bullet. Serious regulation needs to occur to avoid the mistakes of other countries who have legalized it..and try to improve upon those who have done it successfully.

Nor will it end human trafficking, there will always be sick asshole's despite legalization. However, it changes things, "Johns" who just want a quick "fix" vs. those who want something more sadistic. Right now, crime punishment, sex predator identification, etc. is applied evenly between the two. Regulated Legalization would identify the sick bastards much more quickly...and get them off the streets or rehabilitation facilities much faster. And most important, identify victims vs. the usual..."just another prostitute".

[Progressive Law]

12. Why do people discuss an issue, when that issue is widely reported on the news?

???

[EffieBlack]

13. So the only time you care about something is "when that issue is widely reported on the news?"

Given how prolific you've been on the topic the last couple of days, it's surprising that you only got interested in it when Kraft got arrested on Friday.

Sex traffickers are arrested frequently and trafficking rings are busted and exposed frequently and get plenty of coverage, particularly in local news, but I must have missed your OPs about legalization following previous arrests that didn't involve wealthy johns.

[Progressive Law]

14. 1) No. 2) This is not the only message forum I post on.

[flying_wahini]

29. Maybe they protest too much.....?

thanks Effie.

[LanternWaste]

26. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Again.

[UniteFightBack]

15. I really don't think there is more concern for the johns....what would make you think that? nt

[EffieBlack]

16. Read the threads on the topic and you'll see

[Caliman73]

17. I cannot speak for anyone else.

My interest was mainly in discussing the issue of prostitution legalization to see if legalization would increase protections for the sex workers. I don't care much about men who use the services of a sex worker. I especially don't care about what happens to rich White men like Kraft who are likely hypocrites about sex and sexuality while they pay for sex.

If legalizing and regulating sex work will not be effective in protecting the usual victims (the sex workers), then I would like to hear other ideas.

Unfortunately it is an issue that seems to spark immediate outrage and some people start making judgments and calling names rather than discussing the problem.

I saw the links to the studies though I have not had a chance to read them yet. My interests are always in protecting the marginalized population.

[brooklynite]

27. Kraft is a Football Team owner, not an evangelical preacher

What's your basis for assuming he's a hypocrite about sex?

[Caliman73]

63. I did not specifically claim that Kraft was a hypocrite.

I said "rich White men like Kraft" who are "likely" hypocrites...

Perhaps I am assuming too much about people like Kraft, but wealthy conservative men tend to have a double standard about sex that is hypocritical, but like I stated in my post... "I don't care..." I am not interested in "justice for Johns". I am interested in discussing what can be done to protect sex workers.

[JI7]

18. yup, the Story in the News was about females who were FORCED into prostitution , and the discussion

has been about legalizing it . not anything about how the females were forced .

[hueymahl]

37. Many argue that legalization would help solve the forced prostitution issue

Bring everything into the light. It has been effective in other countries. Heck, it has been effective in those few counties in the US that allow it.

[EffieBlack]

38. Do you have statistics to back that up?

[hueymahl]

42. Not handy

But a google search pulls up a bunch of info. Clicking on the scholarly articles section brings up pages of articles that examine the issue. I have not looked in that area in a while, but I think you will find that the evidence is contradictory and inconclusive. In some areas it has helped, in some areas the evidence is inconclusive. When I reviewed the area several years ago in connection with a research project I was doing, it is a tough area to find reliable research - a lot of stuff being published that came off as opinion pieces. I have not seen research that shows it makes things worse, however, but that may be out there.

To be fair, I probably should have repeated the conditional statements found in my headline in the main body of the post "many argue it is effective in other countries", etc.

[EffieBlack]

43. I did a Google search and pulled up numerous articles about human trafficking continuing and growing

in communities with legal brothels.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11862438

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11862460

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11862465

Care to produce anything to counter this?

[hueymahl]

44. First of all, I'm against human trafficking

I find it weird I have to say this, but so be it.

Second, none of those article show that legalized prostitution makes the problem worse. To the contrary, two show how record keeping allowed authorities to flag records that could indicate potential human trafficking. The other one was just a (very sad and disturbing) anecdotal opinion piece. The authorities did not always follow through appropriately, but without the record keeping required of legal brothels, there would be no way to know, which argues for legalization.

So, none of those articles support your point that human trafficking grows in communities with legal brothels. You may well be right, but that is not supported in any scientific way by those articles.

This is clearly a passionate issue for you. Actual evidence is difficult to come by because of the stigma against sex work and the laws prohibiting it, but there are some scientific reviews. See, for example http://chicagopolicyreview.org/2018/02/26/the-effect-of-decriminalizing-prostitution-on-public-health-and-safety/ which does not directly deal with human trafficking, but does give some insights into the effect of legalization of sex work.

I did find one more article that actually does support your position and also supports the idea of decriminalizing sex work. The author's conclusion is that while decriminalization helps protect sex workers in many important ways, it does not necessarily decrease human trafficking because legalization causes the market to expand (possibly because there is not a concurrent increase in resources for enforcement activity against traffickers). What does work is decriminalizing sex work but making it criminal to pay for sex. Very interesting read. https://medium.com/@havana.nguyen/legalizing-prostitution-doesnt-actually-decrease-sex-trafficking-c283394e4f5

Like I said, it has been a few years since I looked into this area. I definitely learned a few things preparing my response to you.

[EffieBlack]

45. You suggested that "that legalization would help solve the forced prostitution issue"

I offered you clear proof that that is not the case.

I'm not sure how you can assume these articles don't offer proof that legal brothels help to perpetuate and increase the human trafficking in an area. But even assuming they don't, they provide clear proof that the existence of legal brothels in a community does not eliminate or even substantially reduce the instances of human trafficking. They merely provide cover and additional pipelines.

[hueymahl]

50. Those are news articles and opinion article

If you want to rely on them to support your point, fine, but they are hardly credible support for an important social issue. Your position actually does have academic support, as I conceded in my last response. But what you cited is not it.

I do appreciate you bring this topic up. My thinking on it has evolved to something closer to yours. I still think that on balance, sex work should be legalized, but only if the issue of human trafficking can be adequately addressed.

[IluvPitties]

56. Effie does important work in this area.

I appreciate the passion and knowledge she brings to the topic.

[Blue_true]

62. Same year statistics.

Holland estimated that based upon busts, it had around 27,000 sex slaves in that country. Our number runs from 1.5 million to 6 million.

[deist99]

69. interesting

The research you posted was interesting. It points out that while prostitution was legal there was a drop in reported rapes. I have seen this in other research on prostitution. Countries with legalized prostitution have lower levels of rape. Though I haven't seen a good hypothesis on why that is.

[Blue_true]

61. Holland has a tiny fraction of the problem that we have.

The fraction is way smaller than their fraction of our population. They do have the problem, but are way more efficient in going after it than we are. I posted the percentage somewhere else, I think that it was 1/85th the level of problem that we have. Of course our country being a world magnet for all cultures could play into the difference, but our tendency to be overly moralistic about sex almost surely plays a part in the difference.

[mcar]

22. Huh. Hadn't thought of it like that

But you are 100% correct.

[crazycatlady]

23. because it is still a man's world

And powerful men are the be all end all of society.

Even on DU, women are penalized for speaking up against powerful men.

[IluvPitties]

30. Prostitution is one of those ignored issues in our society.

People talk about it when it's news.

In my case, I didn't even know who Robert Kraft was, nor I care now.

[LisaM]

32. I don't know why we never see the names and faces of the people running these rings.

They should be plastered all over the airwaves. I don't know why they aren't.

[crazytown]

34. Agree.

[MicaelS]

35. As a man.....

I would say that at least half of men have, at some time in their life:

(1) Paid for sex.

(2) Thought about paying for sex.

(3) Known another man who has paid for sex.

Note that I did not use gender nouns, so it apples to gay as well as straight.

And all those men can empathize with the man getting arrested.

[Mosby]

39. 14% of american men have paid for sex.

About 14 percent of American men said they paid for sex at some point in their lives, but just 1 percent said they visited a prostitute in the past year (2010), according to the study, which is, in part, based on data collected as part of the General Social Survey by researchers at the National Opinion Research Center.

"While it is noteworthy to recognize that the 1 percent of adult men who paid for sex in 2010 still result in a large number of customers, there is no credible evidence to support the idea that hiring sex workers is a common or conventional aspect of masculine sexual behavior among men in the United States," study researcher Christine Milrod, of the University of Portland, said in a statement.

The researchers also found that the average john doesn't look all that different from the average man who has never paid for sex — clients are more likely to have served in the military, only slightly less likely to be married and white, and only slightly more likely to have a full-time job and be more sexually liberal. [The 10 Most Surprising Sex Statistics]

https://www.livescience.com/28169-men-who-use-prostitutes.html

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. Good thing we don't have to rely on the guesswork of MicaelS when informing public policy.

In the time you spent grnding your gears you could have looked it up on Google.

Just sayin.

[MicaelS]

52. Good point.

Did not even think of that. Thanks.

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. The same answer works for every "seems like" observation under the sun:

Selection bias.

[Renew Deal]

47. The same reason it only comes up when there are prominemt stories about

people charged with prostitution.

[fescuerescue]

48. Things in the news tend to generate conversation about that very topic

For folks who want to legalize prostitution, they don't just believe that when someone prominent is charged...they believe it all the time!

However, when someone prominent is in the news, everyone is talking about it and that when when you hear peoples views - both for and against.

This applies to pretty much any controversial topic.

[IluvPitties]

49. Bingo.

[hunter]

51. I take it "Pretty Woman" isn't your favorite fairy tale.

I knew a prostitute, my girlfriend's girlfriend, who tried to kill herself in my bathtub. That was not the worst day of my life in that relationship.

I've zero sympathy for johns.

[titaniumsalute]

53. I've always thought prostitution should be legal

Regulate it...woman and men who want to do it versus slave labor and human trafficking. Not much different than making it legal to smoke pot...have abortions, etc. My body. My choice.

[IluvPitties]

55. Exactly!

[xmas74]

60. I've discussed it over the years

Though not on here. I have known a couple of women who have escorted and they've said they would be safer if legal.

[elias7]

64. Because many people have a lot to think about and don't have prostitution at their forefront

I disagree with your premise. That’s the nature of things being in the news. All of us want clean water, but it is not a hot topic until a Flint happens. All of us want meaningful gun control, but discussion ramps up when a Parkland happens. Where are all the gun control threads now? Prostitution hits the news? People think about it again. Topic of discussion.

You’re OP implies that DUers prioritize wealthy white men, which is really an unfair accusation. I think DUers prioritize current events. Most probably support legalization, but when is the last thread you posted about it?

The finger pointing should be at the media for prioritizing this type of story. If the headlines had to do with the oppression of sex workers, discussion would still center around legalization. I think your beef is with the media for choosing what is news. Famous people get in the news. Ongoing exploitation in the field is the real problem, but not deemed headline worthy.

[Hortensis]

67. Effie, I discussed legalizing prostitution here, but

my focus sequed far from any prominent man being charged or impact on him (to the needs of the involuntarily celibate). No responses. Saad.

But maybe there's a clue to your question in there, though.

Btw, the coverage you're pointing out offers not just these guys' salacious, if-it-bleeds-it-leads crimes but, very importantly, the opportunity to be enraged at the injustice and to engage in punitive wishes. If this was all about protecting powerful white men, don't you think they'd just publish the AP's short version and bury the rest?