General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe must define acceptable and nonacceptable touching
If not we will eat our own while the GOP snickers at us.
First, is there any statute of limitations ? How long is too long to report something?
Say, Im 60 now and running for office and a woman from my college days comes forward and and says that I inappropriately touched her.
When pressed for details, she is vague other than to say I put my hands on her when she didnt want me to.
Ok, so that could have been anything from a plutonic hug to a reach around where he grabbed her breast.
Clearly, for most people, the first is acceptable in polite society where the second is not.
But, theres all types of things in between.
Some people are just touchy feely kind of people that hug everyone of both genders.
Some people are not and hate that.
Im just saying that before we go after any public figure on this issue, that we define what occurred and when it occurred to be forgivable and what we do not. It shouldnt matter who the person is but what the alleged behavior is.
The person alleging must be expected to give the most specific details possible and any corroboration they have. If they are deemed credible, then and only then should the allegations go public. Once they do, the person alleged must give a specific response to the specific allegations. No vague or general statements.
As for Biden specifically, he knows if he has taken advantage of his position over the years to grope or give unwanted kisses to women. If so, he owes it to the party and the country to tell us so. If he hasnt, we need to accept it and move on barring a series of other women coming forward with other similar or worse accusations .
ProudMNDemocrat
(16,782 posts)Whatsoever. No handshaking. No being too close to one another. Just a nod of recognition when introduced to speak. No accusations of touching can be claimed. For people are watching a pol's every move.
Problem solved.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)Celebs and their fans crave the contact
They love the rope lines, hugs, selfies, baby holding, etc.
Not gonna put that genie back in the bottle.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)I think people are much better at negotiating these things than you give them credit for. Think of the zillions and zillions of daily contacts between men and women in all spheres of life.
Mostly people negotiate this shit without the slightest incidence.
Exceptional cases make bad law..
ProudMNDemocrat
(16,782 posts)That Politician's physical interaction with other politicians and supporters should be restricted. If allegations of touching are going to keep coming up, solve the issue beforehand of NOT TOUCHING at all. No handshakes, pats on the shoulder, or hugs of acknowledgement that would be taken as wrong. Even grabbing hands for shaking has appeared as wrong at times.
brooklynite
(94,480 posts)Every politician has a rope-line presence. and 99.9% of them don't seem to have a problem with how their physical interactions are interpreted by others.
3catwoman3
(23,965 posts)...of a rope line are eager for physical contact from whomever is working said line.
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)is that many people lead incredibly uncomfortable lives because they don't like to be touched - but the general societal presumption is that casual touching is accepted and they feel (to some extent are meant to feel) like piariahs when they "make a scene" about being touched (at worst), or repeatedly wriggle out of hugs - and (occasionally) become the targets of people who just can't accept that someone doesn't want to be touched, and who make a game out of trying to make contact.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)who "makes a game out of trying to make contact?"
I have never ever met such a person in all my 64 years of life.
And if you are so touch averse that causal social contact of the sort you are talking about makes you so deeply uncomfortable perhaps you ought either (a) see a therapist and get over it or (b) go live in a monastery so you don't have to be bother with all those creepy other people touching you.
Or you can wear a sign, "please do not touch me anywhere, anytime, without my explicit permission."
But whatever you do, please stop the endless moralizing about, it please.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Telling people to get over it when they simply dont appreciate being pawed by others.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Thats being pawed? Like I said If you are that touch averse you probably need therapy or to be in a monastery or to avoid going out in public of to wear a sign like I have on my backyard fence to warm people that I have a dog.
Take whatever approach you prefer. Whatever floats your boat. But the endless outrage moralizing is tedious and pointless. Most people most of the time in zillions upon zillions if interpersonal interactions spread over many millennia know pretty well how to navigate the social world, I would guess.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)I stick out my hand, if you do not want to shake my hand then don't. That is on you, not me. I had tried to make a simple common, social gesture, and I am NOT trying to paw you. You have the problem not me.
This society is getting more ridiculous with shit like this.
FloridaBlues
(4,007 posts)Didn't she say on tv she didn't regard it as a sexual assault?
treestar
(82,383 posts)If that's the description a person gives normal cultural touching, then they indeed have a problem, because all of society will not adjust for those who are that unusual.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and if they are outside them, feeling "like a pariah" is not really called for. Say they are exceptional or adjust but why do the many have to adjust to the very few.
And people called me anti-social for my introverted ways. But good grief, if they are THAT uncomfortable, they know they are exceptional, so how are average people supposed to know?
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)As for how the average person is supposed to know - they don't need to. Just ask before you reach out and grab someone.
We make a lot more significant accommodations for other exceptional people when we don't know there are around. We make doors in public buildings and housing complexes wide enough for wheelchairs, with door jams of no more than an inch, with particular configurations of the bathroom to accommodate the exceptional person who needs to use a wheelchair - even when we don't know someone with a wheelchair will be around or will ever need it.
Just ask before you reach out and grab. It's a trivial inquiry that ensures that when you touch someone, it is with their consent.
unblock
(52,169 posts)That's a bit much. Handshaking is even completely appropriate in the workplace.
In politics, people can feel a tremendous bond for having had even this brief, limited contact. It's a big deal for a politician to walk down a line or into a crowd and shake as many hands as possible. People go ape over the prospect of shaking hands with someone famous.
That's said, it's really easy to limit contact to handshakes. No hugs or kisses. Problem solved.
CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)Why would I hug someone I just met or hardly knew? I stick my hand out right away so there's not even a chance of a hug & you know what? I think a lot of people are relieved. They don't want to hug either.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)with all this 'people hugging one another all the time' nonsense?
This is a negative trend for humanity and society, in your estimation?
Ghost of Tom Joad
(1,354 posts)just the U.S. Many Europeans hug and kiss each other on the cheek all the time.
CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)It's the lack of respect that is the negative trend for humanity & society. If you're respectful of other people's boundaries, then there's no problem.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Maybe that's just me
CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)shanti
(21,675 posts)Hugs are for family members and close friends - period, imo. It's not appropriate in the workplace. I think it really got started around 2000 or so, this hugging everyone trend. It wasn't started by Boomers, but the younger crowd. My millenial son is a hugger. His older brothers are not.
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)Since long before 2000.
That said - I absolutely respect your personal feeling that hugs are for family members and close friends. My personal line is that kissing on the lips is for my spouse (or, before that a significant other). That line is crossed all the time by my inlaws who believe that kissing on the lips is for all relatives (brothers, sisters, parents, children, nieces, nephews, etc.). I constantly have to dodge the lips of people who are not in the circle of people I am comfortable kissing.
So - despite that fact that I'm a hugger - I ALWAYS ask before hugging, unless the relationship is one in which we have developed a mutually agreed on practice of hugging.
It's not that hard - even if you're a hugger (or kisser, etc.)
CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)Interesting observations on your sons.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I am only first generation fr my Italian mother. A hug and false kiss on each cheek is a standard greeting. If it's casual enough to use Ciao! You know them well enough for this greetings.
Igel
(35,293 posts)It was around when I was a kid. That was 50+ years ago.
And it was practiced by people older then than I am now. Meaning it was around 100+ years ago.
Read older literature. It was around in the 1800s, 1700s. Read older things. It was around 1000, 2000 years ago.
Once difference was that how you interpret it is a cultural thing. If you put 10 cultures or subcultures together, we can all sing "let's celebrate cultural diversity" but as soon as something happens that violates your cultural rules, we're all Highlanders: There can be only one, and if I kill you I get your power.
CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)In the community I was raised, hugs were for family & close friends, not people you'd just met. Certainly not co-workers you hardly know, and definitely not a boss or a business associate. I'm surprised at how much hugging goes on in the corporate environment. I don't remember it being that way when I first started working decades ago. I don't care if other people like to hug, but I don't, so I stick my hand out to make it clear, & I've found that people are totally respectful, & like I said, I think some of them are relieved.
John Fante
(3,479 posts)No handshakes! No touching of any kind. No smiling if it can be avoided - might come off as "creepy".
Bettie
(16,083 posts)I no longer make eye contact or smile at the grocery store or anywhere.
I was coming down the aisle, I briefly made eye contact, smiled, and said "Hi" to another shopper. She stopped her cart and started screaming at me for "microaggressions"...apparently, smiling, eye contact, and an unwanted greeting all all microaggressions.
I abandoned my cart and left the store. I no longer greet anyone or even look up from my cart/list at the store. Ever. I have also begun limiting my trips out of the house, to avoid people, since apparently, even a smile or a greeting is now offensive.
I'm a middle aged woman and I am just ready to start ordering groceries and never, ever leaving my home.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)John Fante
(3,479 posts)I live in Los Angeles, and I'd give anything if more people smiled and said "hi" around here. It's the one thing I envy most about NYC. People are far more gregarious there.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I remember when young I smiled at a young man on a bus and he asked me out! Really, that was enough? Still, I don't stop smiling at others because he was a nutter.
emulatorloo
(44,098 posts)or unemotional or lacking in empathy
See Elizabeth Warren
https://elizabethwarren.com/iowans-are-huggers/
Iowans Are Huggers
ELIZABETH WARREN JANUARY 8, 2019
Heres the first thing I learned in Iowa: Iowans are huggers. Ok, it wasnt exactly a random sample but the thousands of people who lined up for our very first organizing events in Council Bluffs, Sioux City, and Des Moines this weekend sure like to hug.
And I love it.
-
Much more at link
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)and more. Trump doesn't hug affectionately, he just grabs women's crotches. But they love him anyhow.
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)We can't risk having republicans rightly accuse our politicians of smiling at people of the same or other sexes, while we Democrats opt to ignore it. It may be that we need to either blindfold them, or see if we can locate John & Yoko's white bag for them to be inside of during all public appearances. Absolutely nothing less will do.
0rganism
(23,933 posts)as always, Republicans will be exempted from such rules. IOKIYAR.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)but we are dealing with the past right now.
lilactime
(657 posts)Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)You cant just say you were inappropriately touched. You must say how and when.
Otherwise, nobody is exempt from extortion
lilactime
(657 posts)Personally I don't see much extortion going on.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I once met a person who asked if I shook hands before making the gesture. I'm used to the standard social hand shaking and it has never bothered me, but when she asked, it made me think about the fact that a lot of people aren't comfortable with it. It makes sense to me to be respectful of the various possibilities and avoid putting social pressure on them.
Also, the lesson of me too has been that pretty much every woman has proximity to sexual aggression. If not directly, we have a friend, and every single woman in the US has, at some point had to consider the possibility that she could be raped.
So, an appropriate response is to consider that we all have some proximity to sexual assault- it's just a matter of how direct. It's a sensible cultural adaptation to adopt boundaries to be defined by the person who would experience it as a welcome contact vs an uncomfortable encroachment on personal space.
lilactime
(657 posts)lightly touched my arm reassuringly the other day as he walked away, after going out of his way to do something very kind for me. And that didn't bother me in the slightest.
But I'm the one who gets to define what I'm comfortable with - nobody else.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)I comes from a hugging family. And, it really made me think when I saw my dad forcing his hugs on my 6yr old niece as she was squirming trying to get away. She's always been cautious and introverted, so it made me very angry. She needs to know she can reject physical contact and the best way to make sure she and other girls feel free exercise their agency is for us to set a cultural standard where everyone decides for themselves.
lilactime
(657 posts)Response to lilactime (Reply #61)
LAS14 This message was self-deleted by its author.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)... what you will be comfortable with? And if you're not comfortable with something, and the perpetrator was in politics, will you publish your discomfort for the world to know about?
lilactime
(657 posts)Why on earth is that so hard to understand? But if they do touch me and I deem it inappropriate, I will tell them to stop. It is totallyup to me.
As for whether I'd go public if the perpetrator were in politics, that depends on the situation so I cannot answer your question.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)... people to engage in human contact. In some cultures more is allowed than in others. I don't want our culture to be one where none is allowed "without permission."
Igel
(35,293 posts)It's a simple question. There's a difference of culture.
One person says, "I don't care about intent. All that matters is what I feel."
Screw empathy.
To hell with cultural differences.
I don't give a rat's ass as to what somebody else thinks.
I'm for diversity. Now get in line, stay in your lane, and while I'm not going to give you a hint as to what I think you're stuck in the 7th circle of hell if you don't what I disapprove of. There's no squish, no give, no forgiveness, just obedience. Gosh whiz, I'm glad we're into tolerance and hate the idea of authoritarianism.
And what you get is the most restrictive person must always win. Provided that that particular person has the power and privilege, which is what, if you listen, a lot of it is about. A recent interview with the Biden accuser couldn't help but say that there was a power difference between her and Biden and this was his way, basically, of oppressing her. It didn't matter if that was his intent, she felt oppression, so he was objectively her oppressor and should be found guilty of that.
I think there's also more to it than that, because equality can be achieved even with a diverse and sometimes mutually offensive set of customs. There's also, I think, suspicion and alienation. A person does something that's ambiguous, and there's pre-emptive judgment, smack the person down before s/he can be oppressive because, well, in the past there was wronging. It's sort of like the Soviet view from the 1920s that the children of the former oppressors, even if they were young and their parents are dead, must be kept down lest they rise up and produce a new generation of oppressors. Punishing sinners to the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation. With lives ruined because in 1955 your career could be destroyed by the finding that your birth great-grandmother was aristocracy in 1915, that your mother was orphaned and adopted by somebody in 1919, and while that was a secret, nonetheless as the child of privilege 3 generations removed you must be punished. At the same time, if in 1955 you could show that your great-grandparents were wronged, somehow that grievance, that wrongdoing, was still a feather in your cap and somehow made you virtuous.
It all strikes me as strange.
lilactime
(657 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)lilactime
(657 posts)others whether their touch is welcome or not.
You go on ignore too.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Ive learned a lot about certain posters.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)But not in the way you think
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Welcome to Ignore.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)I concur with you...to a point.
Everything has merit...to a point.
If I tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention, and they say...Oh my God, you touched me without my attention, I deem that unacceptable.
Is that reasonable?
This isn't bright line stuff fully. There's clearly inappropriate, there's clearly innocuous, and then there's a gray area of fuzziness.
hlthe2b
(102,192 posts)to connect with other people from those whose intent is purely benign is being increasingly conflated with the ugly, lecherous, subtle (or overtly) sexual acts of others.
I'm not talking kissing, which is very inappropriate but rather pats on the shoulder, arm around the back--that kind of thing. Obviously, drawing someone in for a hug needs far more caution and clear signaling that it is welcome on both parties and certainly with strangers should include asking if they are willing: "may I give you a hug?"
And, no, I'm not talking about work environments, where both male and female staff should be treated similarly professionally--which, in nearly all cases ends with no more than a handshake or a toast of the glass.
But, increasingly, I see what I always experienced throughout my life from kindly, yet demonstrative men AND women to be demonized.
That's all I'm going to say.
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)Largely be people defending Biden - to portray Flores' statement (and concerns that Biden) as a ridiculous overreach of the #metoo movement.
The issues isn't whether contact of the nature engaged in by Biden is, "ugly, lecherous, {or a } subtle (or overtly) sexual acts" - but whether the physical contact - even benign contact engaged in with the clear intent to comfort, suppor, celebrated and to connect" is welcomed by the recipient.
Physical contact can be wonderful (my general take on the world), but it can also be offensive if it is unwanted. Being offensive is not inherenty related to being sexual. Biden should listen and learn.
hlthe2b
(102,192 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)But only time will tell whether his intent expressed in the heat of the political moment will be carried out. I hope so.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)... asking people before you touch them on the shoulder, etc., etc.? What a world.
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)If you are being honest, it was more than just touching them on the shoulder. Put your biases aside - pretend it is Trump in the images and videos - and see if you really think it is ridiculous.
Aside from that - if you are touching someone beyond a tap on the shoulder to ask them to get by - yes. It takes seconds to ask, "can I put my arm around you for a picture?" "would you like a shoulder massage," or "would you like a hug."
I used the last phrase on Friday. It's not that complicated.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)... like you were referring to ALL touching.
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)LAS14
(13,777 posts)... I was really thinking? If so, how can you be sure about that? I was referring to your post, not the whole conversation. Wouldn't it be better to take people at their word instead of impugning nevarious motives?
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)LAS14
(13,777 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Seems like a no-brainer that this is inappropriate behavior. But some people think they're entitled to do just that.
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)roody
(10,849 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)Jeepers people, get a grip.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)grabbing women wherever is just fine, and they have no problem with it. We have a problem with it, and we should.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)in public and broad daylight is not worth all this teeth gnashing.
It just isn't.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)because the alleged touchee is going on the talk shows and talking about it and making a big deal of it. Biden might be in danger of being Frankened.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)You would be ok with a guy kissing you on the back of the head?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Right then and there.
I dont want to sound like a sexist but there is a definite gender difference here.
Guys do tend to call out other guys who cross what they perceive to be an inappropriate line.
But a certain kind of female type seems prone to excuse and explain away their own inability to stand up for themselves in the moment. But then they become all righteously angry about it years later.
Thats another part of this developing trope that I dont really get. Its one thing if were talking about a truly dangerous situation. But thats not what were dealing with here.
This is one of those, I was creeped out at the time, but didnt stand up for myself out of fear or not wanting to rock the boat or ... he was the Vice President, what was I suppose to do, complain? But here I am 5 years later (finally) standing up. Arent I brave? Arent I authentic? How dare you question my motives?
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)But I can imagine that someone might freeze in that moment.
A certain kind of female type. That phrase speaks volumes about you.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)If they did not have a strong sense of their own agency. Which is exactly the type of person I am talking about. They come in all genders, by the way, but females more so then males.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you should read some.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)I have some bad news for you...
And calling Dems precious patsies - you sure you are on the right board?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)and keep falling for silly Republican memes and get caught in circular firing squads and snipe about silly stuff at each other.
I'm on the right board. I'm a democrat who brings a bazooka to a knife fight. I cut my teeth on chicago politics when I was younger. tends to toughen you up
treestar
(82,383 posts)thing is, the press might not have cared then. But at least talk to them then, not when he's beating Bernie in the polls without even declaring. Would she have said anything at all if Biden were in retirement?
GaYellowDawg
(4,446 posts)They didn't have a problem with W grabbing Angela Merkel, either.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And making it into a sexual thing. That's the puritanism that they claim feminism is about. Going too far on something just hands them a way to make us look ridiculous.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)in some cases - maybe this one - it is being deliberately misinterpreted. Some people don't like to be touched by people they don't know, but not necessarily because they feel sexually harassed. For some, it's an unwanted familiarity and invasion of their personal space, and it makes them uncomfortable. Speaking for myself, if some stranger or casual acquaintance hugs me I don't feel like I'm being sexually molested in any way; I just don't like the unbidden familiarity. I'm not offended, just uncomfortable. The basic concept of courtesy - that you don't want to make people uncomfortable - is at issue in that situation, not sexual harassment. That's what's getting mixed up in this discussion. A man who touches or hugs a woman he doesn't have a relationship just because he's a huggy, touchy guy isn't a letch, but he probably doesn't realize that he's causing discomfort for another reason.
I think that because the behavior of Biden and maybe Al Franken was recognized as not sexually intended, nobody complained about it even if they didn't especially like being hugged. I know that's how I would have reacted - the same way I almost always react in such circumstances. It would make me feel uncomfortable but not enough to make a big deal of it. In any case, the best way to avoid having an innocent touch misinterpreted by the touchee (or by others with their own motives) is to limit your touching of strangers to a handshake.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There is a photo of Biden doing the same thing to, of all people, Franken.
My female friend touched me on the arm a few times and put an arm around me when introducing me to someone.
Would these people be equally uncomfortable?
I remember Clinton and Gore hugged at their nomination. It seemed like a turn into more hugging for this culture.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)However, Trump has gotta be laughing his butt off, thinking about what HE got away with ... in no small part because the Russians dumped John Podesta's stolen emails a couple hours later (for which Stone was applauded by the campaign with 'Good Job!', thanks to his Wikileaks contacts) ...
And you know Biden is the guy he fears most, because of his ability to appeal to Rust Belt states and workers.
You know, we do need to close ranks sometimes people, and have some perspective.
What's happening to women under Trump in general is MUCH MORE DRASTICALLY negative ... than anything Joe Biden ever did at a campaign event.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)This is ridiculous. Anything Biden has done pales in comparison to what Trump has done to women. This is a non issue.
People made an issue when Biden put his hands on Ash Carter's wife Stephanie (who I know and who is an old friend of mine) during his swearing in ceremony. She had lunch w/ my sister-in-law shortly afterward, who asked her about it and Stephanie said that she was surprised and taken off guard, but she didn't have a problem with it. She and Ash were good friends with the Bidens and he only thanked her for being supportive, but she wasn't offended.
He is a bit touchy, but I don't think he is being anything more than affectionate, whereas Trump is fully attempting to make a sexual pass at women he touches.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And use it against us. They are the ones that started the creepy Joe meme. I have debated with them about this issue long, long before Flores popped up.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)would prefer that you not touch them except for a handshake (which is always acceptable)? I don't think for a minute that Biden is a sexual predator like Trump; as far as I know, nobody has alleged that he's touched them in an overtly sexual way. I don't interpret kissing the top of someone's head as a sexual gesture but I would find it uncomfortably intimate if it were done to me. On the other hand, I need to make the distinction between being uncomfortable and being offended. That act would not offend me because I wouldn't take it as sexual. It would just be an uncomfortable incursion into my personal space by someone who was not a good friend.
There are many people who are huggy and feely with only friendly, nonsexual intentions, and Biden seems to be one such person - but they don't always realize that some other people are uncomfortable being touched by someone they don't know, and even if done with no sexual intent it can be interpreted that way by the touchee. There may also be a subconscious (but incorrect) assumption that women don't mind a friendly hug or pat that isn't a pass, where a man might find it creepy.
ret5hd
(20,488 posts)MineralMan
(146,282 posts)He's old enough to have learned about being touchy-feely only in appropriate circumstances, as I have learned over the years. In fact, I learned that in my 20s and 30s. Does that mean that I have never done something that caused discomfort in someone sometime since. I don't remember doing that, but it's entirely possible that it happened without any comment at the time.
So, it wouldn't be surprising if a public figure like Joe Biden or, say, Al Franken caused someone some discomfort at one time or another by some overly personal physical contact. I'd be surprised if anyone could say that never happened.
Here's what I think about retrospective discomfort being reported long after something occurred: It's not something that should destroy a political campaign or career. A belated apology for the behavior is enough, as long as the contact wasn't blatantly sexual.
Politicians are public figures who encounter thousands of people up close. If someone recalls something that made him or her uncomfortable, I see no problem if they say it happened. If they do, then the politician apologizes and that should be that, except in the case of blatant sexual intent, like Trump has had on multiple occasions. He doesn't care, and makes jokes about "grabbing them by the pussy."
Biden says he doesn't remember the incident, which I can easily believe. He says that he's sorry about causing discomfort to the person reporting it. It didn't come up at the time, or he would have apologized then, I'm sure.
My attitude about this sort of thing, retrospectively reported is: He apologized.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)have been a bit more flexible than maybe they should be. He has issued a statement, here:
Link to tweet
I think this is an acceptable response and I hope the whole controversy resolves itself soon. It's good to discuss these issues but I don't want to see Biden get the Franken treatment.
MineralMan
(146,282 posts)before we let it go. More's the pity.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)for having the outrageous temerity to question an aspect of Hillary's campaign strategy. There's always that. And soon, yet another candidate will be found to have a flaw about which we can beat up on them for a while.
MineralMan
(146,282 posts)I truly hope we don't defeat ourselves again in 2020.
emulatorloo
(44,098 posts)Hes an affectionate guy, not a perv or sexual assaulter. Troublesome to see false equivalencies to Weinstein or Cosby being thoughtlessly bandied about.
Def needs to back off on the hugging, but I hope to give him a big ole hug if I get the chance to hear him speak in Iowa.
treestar
(82,383 posts)People may expect him to do these things. This is why I think he meant well and no harm. And that she would not have been on umpteen talk shows to go on about it had it been Joe Schmo.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)CrispyQ
(36,440 posts)What Franken & Biden have been accused of is nothing close to what Kavanaugh was accused of & to me, that is something that should be taken into consideration. Also, what is the current attitude of the person being accused? I felt that Franken & Biden were both surprised by the accusations, but contrite & truly apologetic. Kavanaugh reacted with hostility & belligerence, toward everyone, like we didn't even have the right to question him about the incident, which indicated to me that he still has the same attitude of privilege.
Unfortunately, the other side has lost complete touch with common decency & these are distinctions that they refuse to see.
ismnotwasm
(41,973 posts)When I am dealing with a grieving family member, I ask Do you need a hug I am in constant physical contact with human beings in the most intimate ways outside sex and surgery. Some of my patients I give comfort to voted for Trump and watch Fox News.
Consent is NOT hard to procure, I often will stick a hand out for a shake, leaving the response up to the recipient.
Many people dislike being touched. Its not a political thing. Republicans started that snowflake
bullshit, and they enjoyed it until they became the snowflakes.
For some patients a gentle touch reminds them they are fully human and not their condition, and they appreciate a pat on the hand, or a shoulder rub, or a hug.
I understand there is a difference in touching someone professional capacity vs outside of one, but Im not getting the angst. Especially the gender based angst. If you are not sure ask.
If Biden is over touchy, it could be how he was raised, in other words, a cultural thing, it could be how he communicates, or he could be an entitled person who does not respect the boundaries of others.
I dont know which he is.
vsrazdem
(2,177 posts)Don't do it to a woman. The end.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)acceptable to the general public for men to do to women in the 70s and80s ...but they certainly are not now. I hope Biden understands that.
spooky3
(34,425 posts)Not object, without getting very negative reactions. So many remained silent.
emulatorloo
(44,098 posts)That being said your rule is a good one. Thanks for posting it.
Takket
(21,550 posts)is that harassment is not a specific list of acts to "do or not do", it is a state of mind brought about by those acts. In short, if you are making someone uncomfortable, even if you have ZERO malice towards them, you are harassing them. If they ask you to "step off" or complain to HR, even if you think they are being unreasonable, the best thing to do is just back off and leave them be.
Igel
(35,293 posts)I teach high school. I was in class.
I'm not touchy feely.
I walked to another teacher's classroom, told her, and she hugged me and said she was sorry. No permission. It was entirely appropriate.
Another teacher was professional. "I'm teaching."
Which one was human? Which should I be offended at?
Neither.
The first didn't harass me. The second didn't slight me and say my emotions weren't worth acknowledging.
Even in a given culture there is cultural complexity that has to be accommodated. (I'm not into the 'appreciate differences'; they are, and noting that is sufficient.)
elleng
(130,827 posts)and likely NOT possible to 'define.'
What we should recognize is a 'take him down' when we see it.
emulatorloo
(44,098 posts)Thank you.
Vinca
(50,250 posts)He kissed a woman on her head - or, at least, that's what she claims. No one seems to be able to provide proof via video or photo that any thing like this actually happened. Assuming it did, I can't imagine in my wildest dreams being so fragile I remember this 5 years later as if it meant anything. Meanwhile, we have a serial, self-admitted, pussy grabber in the White House who might well be involved with Epstein. Now that's something to wring our hands about.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)Igel
(35,293 posts)However, I insist that my sentence be read as I wrote it.
I think. That. This is over the line.
I am not asserting that it is over the line for all people.
I am not asserting that others should also think it's over the line.
I am not asserting that in all contexts it's over the line: A simple present tense verb in English states a generalization that is not necessarily exceptionless. "I go to work on Mondays" is not a lie or even simply false if I'm sick tomorrow (which is a Monday) and don't go to work.
I don't know the context. What happened before he did this. (I'll assume that he did it; I've seen pictures of him doing similar sorts of things. The Internet is great at digging up dirt and spreading it. Some of it is even true.)
What their relationship was like. What they'd discussed. What their level of acquaintance was like. Did she do something to piss him off and she knew it, and he was forgiving her? Did he do something to show he was angry, and he was saying he wasn't? Did he offend her, and he was trying to show that he was fond of her in a Platonic way? Did he previously grab her butt and was hoping for more later? I have no context. Just offense and outrage and an invitation to befriend or like the outrage. I don't always take what's offered.
hunter
(38,309 posts)I'm also terrible at judging people's body language. I often don't know if someone loves me or hates me until they kiss me or punch me in the face. I've got plenty of scars, physical and emotional, to show for that.
I was severely bullied in middle and high school and at one time had a hair-trigger berserker response to anyone who touched me the wrong way. Unfortunately the bullies were always bigger than me and tended to beat me bloody, or worse, laugh at the ineffectiveness of my "fight" response. Eventually, I learned to be invisible, and when that failed, to throw up a distraction and run like hell.
"Don't touch anyone without their explicit consent" is a good rule, but it's not the way most of our society works, starting with handshakes, which I also hate. Both my grandfathers schooled me repeatedly on how to do a proper handshake, starting when I was about three. Direct eye contact also sucks, so I was doubly uncomfortable with handshakes.
I'm not going to discuss Biden, Sanders, or any of the old guys. Sure I'll vote for them if they win the primaries, but I'd prefer someone younger and fiercer as President, someone like Obama when he first ran, even though I voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries. (Hey, if we don't grow and change, we're dead...)
spooky3
(34,425 posts)And, there are many adults who have been abused in other ways than bullying previously, so an unexpected touch that might be ok to another person is not, to them.
The point is that it is our obligation to learn not to touch strangers, coworkers, acquaintances, etc., without consent. And it isnt hard to do.
I also dislike firm handshakes, because I have arthritis in my right hand, and strong grips are very painful. But I understand thats a norm. I dont find it offensive or inappropriate, but sometimes in self defense I have to warn people why I cant shake hands.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)...to require a whole culture to conform to the most fragile among us beyond being very respectful if we do happen to learn about an individual's feelings. I was thinking about this today in terms of the "trigger" controversy, where some schools require professor's to identify potential triggers and note them in the syllabus. I think, instead, that a person suffering from a serious trigger sensitivity should speak to the professor at the start of the course. Ask if there will be problems, and agree between them how to handle it.
spooky3
(34,425 posts)I think its a very easy problem to solve, and doesnt require hypersensitivity to fragility. It is not a huge imposition for us to learn not to touch without consent. Many DUers have described some simple rules of thumb that everyone can follow, such as dont come up from behind someone you dont know well and touch them unexpectedly. In the case of my relative, we all understand not to hug him without permission but if he is prepared and wants a semi hug, he will say so and all is fine.
The DUers rules also work in our increasingly multicultural society. For example, I did a work project with people from a middle eastern country. Their culture frowns on mens initiating handshakes with women in the workplace unless women offer their hands first. The DUer rules would have worked fine here.
I have been a hugger in my younger days but learned not to presume. Not hard. I have also had younger colleagues (male and female) ask for hugs at times, and while it was risky for me I always gave them. Not hard to ask.
LAS14
(13,777 posts)... appropriate sensitivity to how others might be reacting.
spooky3
(34,425 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)Nobody has the right to invade the personal space of another without their permission. The norm should be that you don't put your hands on someone you don't know, beyond offering a handshake. Many people - including many who are not on the autism spectrum - are uncomfortable being touched, hugged, patted by someone they don't know. It's not sexual harassment but it's discourteous; it's undue familiarity and it makes them (and me) uncomfortable. The purpose of principles of courtesy is to avoid causing discomfort. Don't do something that makes other people uncomfortable; don't presume another person welcomes being touched.
eShirl
(18,490 posts)then try to avoid doing that
Ms. Toad
(34,055 posts)It is not an issue of "if he has taken advantage of his position over the years to grope or give unwanted kisses to women."
It is an issue of whethher his touch was welcome or invited by the recipient. Period.
Unfortunately, you - and many others -are conflating all touch into a single category of sexual-harassment-that-might-the-basis-of-a-career-ending- scandal.
By all accounts (pictures and videos) Biden touches lots of women. By some accounts, his touching has made some of the recipients of this touch uncomfortable. Not necessarily because the touch was sexual - but because the women did not want to be touched. That is their right. Biden needs to listen and learn - and his recent statement suggest his understands this on an intellectual level, at least.
That doesn't make it sexual harassment (at least not inhernetly - although the fact that the nature of his conduct was directed at only women moves it in that direction). That doesn't mean he shouldn't be a candidate for president. It simply means he is touching people who don't want to be touched - and he needs to figure out a way to make sure his touches are welcome.
spooky3
(34,425 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,658 posts)touching that may feel uncomfortably familiar but is not sexual. Of course, nobody should be made to feel uncomfortable regardless of what the toucher intended, but we are making a mistake if we assume every uninvited touch is an act of sexual harassment. However, some undue familiarity - the invasion of a person's personal space - can be interpreted as harassment even if the toucher had no such thoughts in mind; therefore people, men especially, are well-advised to limit their physical contact with strangers to handshakes. That way nobody becomes uncomfortable and nobody is unfairly accused of lecherous behavior.
aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)Students were shocked that I would decline hugs
from them.
Ive loosened up over the years. Lots of hugging in the south.
stopbush
(24,393 posts)What Biden did was acceptable at the time, or at least more acceptable than it is in 2019. It was certainly more acceptable than screwing porn stars and paying them hush money.
The problem isnt whats acceptable at a given time. Its judging past behavior by todays norms. And, its a matter of Ds being judged by a much different standard than Rs.
GaYellowDawg
(4,446 posts)THIS!! A THOUSAND TIMES, THIS!!!
Igel
(35,293 posts)Most (R) I know will judge something from 1975 based on what they knew of 1975, not 2019. If Biden were (R), even most (R) women would say, "Yeah, they did that." They might sniff because they disapproved at the time, they may not. But they would say, "44 years ago was then, not this morning. I'm different, he's likely to be different, views are different."
Many (D) I know insist that everything fall in line with current norms and views.
At the risk of being offensive, it almost seems like there's a complexity that we pretend doesn't exist lest we fail to condemn something so that perhaps some wrong today be excused or some currently still-felt outrage not be properly empathized with.
GaYellowDawg
(4,446 posts)At a different interpretation. Your last statement wasn't offensive. It wasn't like my response was an exemplar of complexity, lol.
The reason I bolded what I did was that I think that every single time that Biden gets mentioned, Trump needs to be mentioned at length. And the second - the second - that Kellyanne Conway said something, the reply should have been, "Really? Really? Spokesperson for President Pussy Grabber is saying something? SHUT. YOUR. HYPOCRITICAL. MOUTH."
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)what is and isnt appropriate touching. What we need to define instead is, what behaviors do women need to be protected from?
I am quite befuddled by the idea that many people, including an incredible number of left-leaning women, believe that women should be protected at all times from even the slightest inappropriate act. It feels very patriarchal.
I can handle, all by myself, an unwelcome advance. I dont need protection from men who wolf whistle, or try to pick me up at a bar, or try to advance a friendship into something more serious. I can even handle the Louis CK types who think that exposing their penis will somehow result in a sexual encounter. Those kinds of things can be handled with a firm no, or an eye roll, or a snide comment. I dont need someone to ride in on a white horse to defend my honor from men who are merely misguided, clumsy, or immature. I dont even need such defense when the perpetrators are truly misogynistic. Im not that delicate, and, frankly, dont want to be perceived as that delicate. It undermines everything I have accomplished as a woman to have people believe that I need to rely upon someone else to protect me from the little indignities that come along.
I need protection from the Bill Cosbys of the world; men who would drug me and rape me. From the Donald Trumps who believe it is their RIGHT to grab my private parts, or to ogle naked underage girls because he owns the pageant. From police officers or drill sergeants or clergy who use the fact that they have power over me to molest or rape me.
Just my 2 cents. Flame away. I can take it.
nocoincidences
(2,218 posts)I was part of the Feminist movement of the 70's, and consider myself a strong woman who can handle most situations without any assistance, thank you.
When men use physical strength or power/authority to overwhelm me, yeah, you can jump in there if you can really help.
I'm pretty clear about where my responsibility limits are.
Whisper in my ear and see what happens.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)I was concerned that my thoughts on this would not be well received here.
Quixote1818
(28,926 posts)And Joe does stuff like this all the time often with little girls (see bottom video). Before 'Me Too' he might have been able to get away with this type of thing but times have changed.
Igel
(35,293 posts)Sort of "Uncle Joe Biden."
It's a style that's not really in vogue, and given the incredible open-mindedness of people these days must never have been in vogue because it's not in vogue now in their circles.
If you trust him then you think he's not being a lecher. If not, then he's a lecher and oppressor.
If you're into symbols, he's a symbol of white male oppression. If you're less into symbols and the politics of oppression, then he's not. Had a minister who did this. Knew women who did this. Some white, some black, some Latino. Know women who still do this.
I'm not touchy feely. When a black woman I don't know on parent-teacher night insists on grabbing my arm or touching my shoulder, it bothers me. Same if it's a white woman or a man. Yes, there's an interaction style which even today says, "Make physical contact."
I'd often rather ignore trivial things I find offensive then make sure others comply with my requirements.
I'm also fairly oblivious to power relationships. Even the ones that are actually there.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)NO....the person being touched defines that. I can't stand to have anyone touch me...it's not for "We" to decide what is acceptable
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Set your boundaries and make them clear beforehand.
Don't allow yourself to be touched, the complain about it later.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)former9thward
(31,963 posts)Do you seriously think that a discussion board has the power to do any of that? People can discuss it all day long but it has no effect on politicians or people evaluating them.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)item to use against us.
samnsara
(17,615 posts)...and I do the same. Still, I am going to ask MAY I? before i hug anyone and thats probably a good suggestion for any guy (or woman) as well. I mean YOU NEVER KNOW! ( remember being warned about the 14 yr old who looked 19?...take THAT advice...)
Midnight Writer
(21,737 posts)I do not like being touched, or even someone in "my space".
When my parents died, people actually stood in line to hug me. When I returned to work after an operation, people all day were running up to hug me. Once some friends threw me a surprise birthday party, and through the evening folk were hugging me, rubbing my shoulders, even some kisses on the cheek.
I didn't like it, but I wasn't offended. Nobody meant me harm; to the contrary. We use touch to greet, to comfort, to show affection, to bond. Can you imagine a sports team where the players don't touch their teammates?
Intent and context.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)from being elected to anything because stupid people will say it was purposeful groping. I was sitting in one of those couches that sucks you in and I used my friends leg to help myself up...well, my hand slipped and went fully on his crotch. Now, if I was running for something that accident would be called a purposeful grope. What a bunch of stupid fucks.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)Important to know for context...and possibly intent.
Doreen
(11,686 posts)Just slipped. You know they would say I stroked not slip. My intent was to get off the couch but assholes would claim I was trying to grope him and climb on him.
Funtatlaguy
(10,868 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)If not, it isnt. And just because someone is okay with one person doing it, it doesnt mean its okay for everyone.
Oneironaut
(5,490 posts)Lets be honest - Joe Biden committed something a little worse than a faux pas. Its not as bad as serial sexual harassment, or worse sexual assault.
On the other side, we have unapologetic Republican misogynists outrage trolling because they know Democrats fall for it and will eat their own.
I refuse to play their game. Theyre weaponizing the metoo movement for political purposes.
Daninmo
(119 posts)since the SCOTUS hearings we must now go all the way back to highschool days.
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Well, at least until someone claims that their avatar had their personal space invaded.