MeToo and how we respond to it.

[guillaumeb]

There are quite a few current threads, all discussing various aspects of behavior that we, as voters, might expect of candidates.

What is disheartening is to see how many responses illustrate exactly why so many female victims are so reluctant to speak of allegations of abuse. Why so many female victims spoke of dreading the publicity, and the expected response to their allegations against a prominent and powerful (generally) male.

The questioning of motivation. Why did the alleged victim wait?

The attempt at showing how many other candidates did, or were accused of, the same behavior.

And perhaps worst of all, in my view, the focus on winning above all else.

Yes, Trump is a monster, and totally incompetent, and a sexual predator. And we need to defeat him, and ruin him legally through the Judicial process.

But what does MeToo really mean to us if we so easily ignore what we have learned about the problem?

[Squinch]

1. Well done!

[guillaumeb]

2. Thank you.

I have a wife, daughters, sisters, female cousins, friends, but even if I did not, it is astounding to me how quickly the narrative reverts to type.

[Sherman A1]

3. All allegations of this nature should be taken seriously

that is without any doubt. We are however ruled by the principle of Innocent until Proven Guilty and that must not be simply put aside and trials that exist only in the court of public opinion are to be considered within the context of just that. If there is proof, let it come forward and let the process take the proper course.

[guillaumeb]

5. Agreed.

But questioning the motivation of the accuser is seen very often, and many who were abused cite this as one reason that victims do not report abuse.

[Sherman A1]

7. As mentioned

We must take allegations exceptionally seriously and the alleged victims must be respected throughout. That said they must also offer proof of what they are alleging occurred and that must be dealt with by the proper authorities not in the media.

[Takket]

8. So what do I, as a voter concerned about issues affecting women, do about Joe Biden?

He's never going to trial, so should I simply dismiss the accusations made as irrelevant to my decision making process about whether to vote for him?

Or is it fair for me to say "I don't like his touching of women, so I'm not going to vote for him"?

[Sherman A1]

11. You will have to make your own decisions as will everyone else

If Biden is the nominee I will vote for him. In the primary my choice is different. What you choose to do or not do is up to you.

If the accuser has proof of a crime and can bring that to law enforcement, he should be investigated just as should anyone else. If there is no proof of a crime he is then presumed to be innocent, unless you choose to toss out that rather important legal construct from our system. Our system is far from perfect, but it is what we have.

[Ms. Toad]

14. I haven't seen anything remotely suggesting he committed a crime.

I don't like how he touches women. Every woman has the right to decide when, how, and by whom they are touched - and some of the women and girls he touched were visibly uncomfortable. I hope he learns from the current conversation and changes his behavior.

I also see value in the conversation. He was obviously (from his response) oblivious to the impact he was having on some of the women he touched. And from the response of a number of people on DU - there seem to be quite a few people who don't understand the concept and importance of personal space.

But, aside from a break-the-tie weight, what I've seen or heard alleged so far won't factor into my decision as to who to vote for in the primaries.

[handmade34]

4. maybe

the concern here (Flores) is not one of sexual harassment but invasion of personal space... any person has the right and responsibility to speak out about discomfort or fear and/or other emotions centered around their being... Flores has said the interaction with Biden was an invasion of her space, not sexual harassment... she should speak to whomever it is that is making her uncomfortable, not shouting to the world... any of us should tell others if and when they are uncomfortable... people have rights to their feelings and tell others to back off if necessary


this whole thing is way overblown

[guillaumeb]

6. If hers was the only accusation, I would agree.

But a reluctance to confront the alleged abuser, especially a powerful person, is also an important aspect of the MeToo narrative.

[handmade34]

9. my understanding

is that a second women has come forward and also said it wasn't sexual, although she was uncomfortable... I get that...

the difference is that it seems clear that Biden is not using his position or power to, take advantage of, exploit, oppress, put down, repress, abuse, subdue, silence, get one over on, etc...

I get that he has made some people uncomfortable, but this issue has been inflated to the point of ridiculousness... I respect people's feeling/emotions; they have every right to them... but there are better ways to discuss this issue and for the individuals to express their concerns...

[guillaumeb]

10. And you may be correct about motivations.

But there is a pattern.

[handmade34]

16. yes

there is a pattern of Joe Biden hugging, kissing and touching lots of women, men and children... he is a hugger, I know the type and it can make some people uncomfortable... it also can comfort and reassure others

until I hear and see numerous women come forward and say that he accosted them, leered at them, made sexual comments, touched them in a sexual way, etc… I will believe that Joe Biden has developed a habit of showing his care and concern by being touchy-feely...
it will make me sad for us as a society if we become so afraid of being touched that we no longer show concern for others in a physical way (touch has been scientifically proven to be beneficial to humans)

Research demonstrates that touch contains several health benefits for our physiological and psychological well being...Human touch, hugging, hand holding, cuddling, and other outlets of contact — can be beneficial, health-wise, physically and emotionally...

I have been the victim of sexual harassment. I also have been the "victim" of huggers and I can tell the difference between the two. My youngest daughter (who is very attractive) has told me stories of men cat-calling her, leering at her, making suggestive comments to her, etc... she has learned to hold her own and let the men know it's not wanted or appreciated... she also doesn't necessarily like unwanted hugs, but she knows the difference...

we all need to care for and educate the women (and men) in our lives and let them know it's okay to voice discomfort, but also to understand there are different motives for different people...

I get that Joe Biden may need to be more conscientious of his innate need to reach out physically to greet and comfort people... I don't know how this will end but I do know, most of this conversation is misguided and unless it results in all of us understanding each other better, it is all a waste of time

[Ms. Toad]

15. So how would you suggest it be discussed?

When the contact is with women with whom Biden does not have a personal relationship, under circumstances that would make it uncomfortable to speak up immediately, there isn't the natural opportunity to talk about it in a "better way."

Although he is not consciously using his position or power in thes encounters, it is precisely his position and power that gives him access to women in a way that makes it uncomfortable to address on the spot - and provide little access to Biden to have a conversation about it aftef the fact.

I think the conversation is an important one, and I am deeply disappointed in how may members of DU are trivializing the concept of personal space/bodily integrity in the face of other members of DU who are very clearly saying, "I do not want anyone hugging me, massing my shoulders, etc." unless I know them well/have given them permission, etc.

Biden's response was a good first step - I hope he listens, learns, and changes his behavior. I'd wish the same for many members of DU - but since they are still refusing move to the position Biden has taken, I don't have much hope there.

[Takket]

12. here's my issue with this........

the question keeps coming up of what do we do with joe biden, or brett kavanaugh, or roy moore, or drumpf......... all examples of women coming forward years, even decades after the event.

So, people are going to do what the always do... make up their own minds based on the info they have.

BUT................

by the time these questions are asked, it is ALREADY TOO LATE.

The question i think needs to be asked is how do we stop ever getting to this place to begin with? I think parents need to be acutely aware of what is going on and we need to TALK to our kids, boys AND girls about respecting personal space, acceptable behavior, etc. Kids need to be brought up knowing you can't just touch anyone you want. Don't phrase it as being EVIL, just understand that in can be UNWANTED. And likewise kids also need to be told again and again to speak up for themselves or to an adult if something is bothering them. and hopefully that carries over to adulthood. This won't EVER eliminate harassment, nothing will, but hopefully the instances of it can be reduced.

[guillaumeb]

13. Well said.

There are some, like Trump and Kavanaugh, who are serial abusers.

But, given that so much abuse happens in the family, perhaps many are conditioned from a very young age to accept what should never be accepted.