#me too is not the #i uncomfortable movement

[boston bean]

This latest round falls into the latter and uncomfortableness is not indicative of sexual harassment or assault. Although sexual harassment and sexual assault can make one at the least feel uncomfortable.

The me too movement is being used in a perverse way and it must not be tolerated.

Not only for the men whose lives can be ruined for making a women feel uncomfortable not in a sexual way, but also for victims who have most certainly been sexually harassed and assaulted.

Women and men both with deal physical personal boundaries. Hell I had one the other day when the person was too close and had bad breath. I was uncomfortable. Should I report to HR?

Second, a display of affection meant to show caring and not an attempt to rape/ assault/ harass is NOT and cannot be a conflated with #me too.

It is harmful to both men and women.

A good thing gone too far. And if it continues I will not continue to be a proud member.

[Vinca]

1. The "uncomfortable movement" smells like a political hit job.

[uponit7771]

7. +1

[Zoonart]

8. I agree...

It also kind of infantilizes women...like we need protection from a hug or a pat in a group photo.

I consider myself a woman "fully growed" and I don't need to soul search for blah-blah years in order to know whether I felt threatened by a Grandpa hug. I am a victim of date rape and of many VERY inappropriate incidences that occurred in the workplace and I am adult enough to know when they were threatening or sexually inappropriate.

I have also taken part in many team building and communication exercises where there was a lot of convivial and happy hugging that made me feel really good about myself and my place in the workplace. After those workshops it was not uncommon for the participants to meet at other meetings and exchange hugs and a peck or two. Should I have complained to corporate?

I am NOT down with the "I felt uncomfortable thing either".

[DownriverDem]

16. Totally agree

Why? Biden can win. He can win the flyover states. He has always been close to blue collar workers and can win them back since they know trump screwed him. He can win the electoral college. I would love to know who is behind this. Winning is all that matters.

[efhmc]

19. This whole thing is about to push me over to Biden from undecided.

nt

[Funtatlaguy]

54. I'm there with you

He’s way down on my list
I’d prefer someone more liberal and younger and probably a female....but I’m so pissed off the way he is being treated ....
He’s overly affectionate...we get it....he puts hands on people before asking....shouldn’t do that. We get it. Now. STFU unless you’ve got more that that. If he propositioned you or touched you in a sexual way ...bring it forward. Otherwise, there’s no more story here.

[bitterross]

22. Look up the definition of Hyperbole. See: Used for effect.

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2019, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)

There is no "uncomfortable movement."

[LakeArenal]

43. Check your spelling in a dictionary while there.

[bitterross]

45. Thanks. I did.

My spelling has always been horrible. I wish the spell-check worked in titles.

[sdfernando]

114. There is an easy fix for that.

Copy you title into the message text, do the spell check, if it needs fixing then copy the fixed title back up....I do this all the time, though sometimes I forget.

[bitterross]

129. Thanks. That's a great idea.

[Mollyann]

106. Childish

It reminds me of when my kids were young and one would yell, "Make him/her stop looking at me!" about the other one.

[Hortensis]

110. So notable that "uncomfortable" is the big charge.

I didn't know what to think of this at first. Now I'm thinking, so, Biden is catching up belatedly to #MeToo mores. America feels it knows Joe, and that's why this hasn't gotten traction as a perv story and is being pushed as a too old to learn one.

It occurs that for decades he's been very powerful and admired, first as a U.S. senator and then vice president, and thus constantly interacting with people who were very pleased by proximity to and attention from him, and not exactly blaring complaints about his physical warmth.

Nancy's right, though, and of course Biden knows it. "I think that it's important for the vice president and others to understand is, it isn't what was intended, it's how it was received…"

And how some will receive it has changed. The #1 reason, though, isn't "#MeToo, it's because he's become a target to be taken out. So he needs to join Nancy's straight-arm club, "I just pretend you have a cold and I have a cold."

Unfortunate, but good development for those genuinely uncomfortable with being touched by a former vice president and possible candidate for president.

Hostile jerk pushing into Nancy's space and trying to jerk her off balance. She's not having it.

[demigoddess]

117. +1, also

[BlueFlorida]

126. Exactly this. 100% ... nt

[PatrickforO]

127. Indeed it does. The fellow to whom it is happening now (nameless cause this is GD)

is clearly being smeared by the RW. I just don't think he has any sexual harassment in him. Not even close.

[stonecutter357]

2. K&R

[samnsara]

3. i agree...even my hubby who is the gentlest guy in the world is scared that he may...

..have hugged someone 'too long, too hard'..etc and now hes always feeling guilty about being perceived as insensitive when that was never the intended case. He hugs because hes glad to see someone, to offer support or sympathy. We need to remember that probably .00000000000001% of hugs or touches are questionable ( ok i just made up that figure). I wish we could just accept a hug as just that..a hug..after all culturally, just a few years ago, it was acceptable (rather, until a few MONTHS ago)

he is planning to run for a local office and now hes scared that someone from years ago is gonna complain about something. Im afraid #metoo has become weaponized.

[boston bean]

4. Members of #me too must speak up about what it means and what it does not mean.

[GemDigger]

83. That has been tried by many people on DU.

They are getting kicked in the teeth when they try to explain the difference between "metoo" and "space invaders".

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. All he has to do is ask.

If he wants to run, all he has to do is make a statement and offer an apology. Basic crisis communications, people!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

49. Yup. When in doubt ask, or use body language (like open arms inviting to a hug & person can move in)

If her hubby opens his arms and the person moves into his arms that is a positive confirmation that the offer is accepted.

As to "too long", we can all be reasonable but shorter rather than longer.

If her hubby has a policy, enacted many times, of doing exactly these steps, then any complaint should just be refuted with "I only give hugs that have been openly offered and gladly accepted. Period."

If she thinks that policy is not sufficient, nothing is sufficient and there are no guarantees. A person can have a publicly stated policy of "no hugs or touching" and still be accused.

[Ms. Toad]

118. You would be wrong about how long ago uninvited hugs were acceptable.

In one group I'm part of - in which we know each other well, and generally are very physically affectionate with each other - hugging without consent has been unacceptable for well over a decade (more likely 2 decades - but I've lost track of time). We were likely ahead of the curve in talking explicitly about how uncomfortable some of our members felt when they were hugged without consent. But that doesn't mean that the hugs were acceptable - merely that members of our group who were uncomfortable suffered in silence - or left to avoid the discomfort.

Everyone has the right to decide by whom, how, and when they want to be touched. It has nothing to do with whether the contact is "questionable," it has do do with whether the recipient welcomes the hug.

[Whiskeytide]

128. I agree with your general theme, but we ...

... have to find a way to balance this.

I was at a reception following a high school awards ceremony today. Because of this issue in the news, I paid closer attention to the interaction of the crowd.

Everyone was hugging everyone. Kids, parents teachers ... all hugging each other - quite often multiple times. Greeting hugs, goodbye hugs, congrats hugs. I’m a dad and I was hugged at least 15 times by a number of my daughter’s friends, a couple of her teachers and five or six moms of other kids. My wife hugged and was hugged much more. Honestly, the only hug I did not witness was one between grown men - we were all shaking hands upon greeting each other, but no hugs. I did see some dads hugging sons. I was actually very surprised I had never noticed how rampant it was before.

The exuberance, love and joy I witnessed between my daughter and her teachers, friends and friend’s parents - it was heartwarming. Laughter was abundant. No one seemed upset. No one seemed to withdraw. It seemed genuine and natural. I suspect that was why I had never really noticed it before despite having been to dozens of these things.

But it is certainly possible - probable in fact - that at least some number of the 100 or so people present were people who do not welcome that kind of physical contact. They either suffered in silence, or they avoided it and I didn’t notice, or perhaps they just did not even attend the reception.

I empathize with them - certainly. But if permission was required, this reception would have had a very different - and I think less enjoyable for most - vibe.

I don’t have a proposal that seems to work here, honestly. I think most humans are prone to physical contact by instinct as well as social conditioning, and I don’t think it’s going to change. And I don’t think I want it to after what I saw today. But I don’t know how to respect those who feel differently without risking the sterilization of the entire event.

[Ms. Toad]

134. It really doesn't change the vibe much.

Even just open arms with a hesitation that expresses invitation lets the recipient decide how to respond. Most of the time i ask verbally - but especially if I am with people who are clearly peers - and people I know I invite by open arms that invite them to step in if they would enjoy a hug.

[Whiskeytide]

141. That's true. And most can read those non- verbal...

... signals. It strikes me that the problem is when the “hugger” or “toucher” misinterprets the signals or is preoccupied with their own emotions (happy, sad ...) and doesn’t see them. I think that happens a lot, and we need to figure out how to distinguish that from someone who touches someone with inappropriate intent (which also happens a lot).

[Ms. Toad]

144. Occasional misinterpretation, or inattention, isn't a problem

When it becomes habitual (regardless of intent) for a particular person, the hugger/toucher needs to pay attention and add some restraint to their behavior.

There are people who are oblivious at reading social cues - but the intent of the hugger really doesn't matter to me. My body, my right to decide by whom, when, and how it is touched. Period.

Addressing it is more challenging when it is a public person and touching/hugging is part of their public persona. With someone you know, there are far more opportunities to have that conversation in private. With someone you meet - in the spotlight - the person being touched has to decide on the spur of the moment whether to "make a scene" or tolerate it, then - after the fact - whether/how to raise the subject with a person with whom you don't have regular contact, or just let it go.

I'm glad the conversation is happening, but disappointed in the responses that trivialize/blame/put the response on the person being touched, and disappointed in the responses that insist that raising the concern trivializes the #metoo movement (although both involve physical contact, this is a much broader issue - and is unrelated to criminal behavior).

[Cuthbert Allgood]

121. So it's a bad thing that men (of which I am one) actually think

about what we do and how it might be received by women? I have a lot of privilege as a male. It doesn't scare me that I should be aware of that and that I may need to change the way I do things.

[Vinca]

139. So a spontaneous hug to a heartbroken friend is out of the question?

I'm glad I lived most of my life during the pre-bubble era. If a woman is "uncomfortable" in a nonsexual situation, she should do one of two things: move away or tell the offender she needs her space. This entire brouhaha has bothered me more for the perceived fragility of women that it has for Joe Biden and his shoulder squeezes.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

5. I think it's important that we talk about how women's experiences are routinely dismissed in favor

of men's intentions. It doesn't have to be sexual for it to be demeaning. The only people I see conflating this with #metoo are ones who want to use the movement to silence women. "He didn't rape you? Well, then why are you complaining?" And THAT is what hurts the movement and kills the conversation before it starts.

[haele]

10. However, we also need to recognize that there are about 10% who don't want to talk about it -

They only want to shout and condemn and be vindicated.

They only want their perceptions to be recognized, and will not "back down" because they feel their particular experience is the only valid experience. They won't talk about cultural differences, or misconceptions, or valid personal space considerations vice normal habits, they want someone to pay for their valid injuries - or even just their probably valid feelings of discomfort - and they don't care who pays or how it affects other's equally valid means of expression.

Over sixty years working in and around the military, a "mans world", I have experienced a wide range of sexual harassment, demeaning social put-downs based on gender expectations and/or hierarchical positions, and simply paternalistic put-downs that left me feeling angry or frustrated when all I wanted to do was my job and get some recognition for it.
However, I have also experienced genuine respect and offers of support or assistance that could have been misconstrued as paternalism or harassment if I had closed myself off to it just due to the personality of the person offering it. And I'm aware that there's quite a few times I come off as "Den Mom" or a snooty elite myself, and have probably been thought of as overbearing and demeaning to others who are younger or lower in the workplace heirarchy than myself.

I'm willing to talk about it. But I've met quite a few women - and men - who would rather wallow in impotent rage about it and take the role of victim rather than live in a world where there are people who aren't them and have equally valid feelings and personalities.

Haele

[Hekate]

100. Your last paragraph! is spot on to this situation. nt

[Collimator]

115. Damn Well Said!

". . . I've met quite a few women - and men - who would rather wallow in impotent rage about it and take the role of victim rather than live in a world where there are people who aren't them and have equally valid feelings and personalities."

A term that I coined to describe such people : "There are some folks who walk around in bare feet just waiting for the world to step on their toes."

[boston bean]

11. Wrong distinction, imho.

I could give a shit about a mans claimed intention in regard to sexual assault and harassment. Those intentions are clear and can be determined.

Intent does come into play in other situations in which we are attempting to discern, such as “uncomfortable”. Uncomfortable is bar too low to convict a man in the public sphere. And that is a corruption of me too and does a disservice to Everyone.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. Agree. I still think anyone who is coming out now

To say Joe made them uncomfortable, have other motives.

To me, a true Democrat, would realize the importance of getting Trump out. That would be tantamount. If Joe made them uncomfortable, fine, pick someone else. But don't ruin him, because it's possible he could win the nomination. And you would have helped soil him.

[MicaelS]

15. If someone makes you uncomfortable....

You have a duty to youself to speak up then and there. Don't wait years and then bring it up.

I am willing to bet that Biden's accusers would not be saying anything if he was not running.

[JayhawkSD]

20. And therein lies the poitn, doesn't it.

"Biden's accusers would not be saying anything if he was not running."

Of course they would not.

[MicaelS]

42. Yes.

Apparently ratfucking is not solely the province of Republicans.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

23. The problem is, women who do speak up in the moment are seen as party poopers,

uptight bitches, cold, bossy, and so on. People like to rally around men, who are after all just being FRIENDLY.

I am willing to bet that Biden's accusers would not be saying anything if he was not running.

That's fine, but a lot of us have been saying this about Biden for years, too. It's just hitting a critical mass for a national conversation.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. But so what? Just pick someone else. Don't help

elect trump again by piling on

[WhiskeyGrinder]

57. Pick someone else, as in pick another candidate?

Agreed! But if I think someone shouldn't be president, I'm going to say so. I don't think Biden should be president, but I didn't think so before this story came out, so.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

60. Well, then you are helping trump win, imho. I get it,

It's tempting...but we are not in normal times. No way, literally, will our country survive if he gets in for another four years. Not like we are risking having a normal repuke getting in.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

88. At the risk of getting into specific primary discussions, I don't believe Biden is the only

candidate who can beat Trump.

[Mossfern]

77. You don't think he should be President

because he hugs people and is a touchy kind of guy?
Is that the only reason?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

89. As I said in the post you're responding to, I didn't believe he should be president before

this discussion arose.

[uponit7771]

63. There's moderation to addressing someone who's too touchy and will get the message. I don't see

... Biden as someone who doesn't get the message.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

90. An apology would certainly show he's gotten the message.

[uponit7771]

107. ... then someone will say that's not enough. "I get it..." sends the message

[uponit7771]

62. There are more ways to responding to being uncomfortable than public shaming unless the person ...

... 100% ignores someone.

[brooklynite]

65. How easy would you find that...

when you're a local candidate and the VP shows up with a massive crowd?

[MicaelS]

72. I am sorry, I do not understand.

Could you rephrase the question.

[brooklynite]

79. You are a local official running for State office...

The VICE PRESIDENT shows up to campaign with you. He brings his massive entourage and press contingent. There's a huge crowd, as much to see him as to see you. After the program, he's surrounded by people asking questions and taking photos, and being the folksy person he is, he (and his aides) are going to focus attention on the crowd. At what moment are you going to interrupt to express your feelings about his behavior?

[MicaelS]

108. That is a good question, and I do not a have a good answer. n/t

[Sparkly]

131. Thank you.

I haven't read the other replies to you. Just want to thank you for making the point succinctly.

There are many ways of physically dominating, belittling or patronizing women -- whether or not men realize it's received as obnoxious -- that are demeaning.

And it seems the motivation to defend Joe Biden stops people from listening to women and shuts down the conversation.

[DirtEdonE]

9. trump's in the White House, kavanaugh is on the SC

But the news is all about Joe Biden putting his hand on someone's back.

repubicans must wonder what they've done to deserve Democrats who are so easily played.

[H2O Man]

12. Recommended.

Thank you for this. I value your opinion on this general topic. I was glad to see your OP.

[mopinko]

13. it's should be about a pattern of behavior. the reason these "little things"

are important is that they can give a window into larger notions of their own power, and their own entitlement.
when a harvey weintstein does it, it is part of a larger pattern of behavior that included sexual assault AND abusing his position to harm the careers of those who resist.

it's important to look at the roots of the behavior.

[boston bean]

14. Some things deserve a swift and public rejection.

somethings like a man of another generation, who has politicked his entire life by showing empathy and happiness and caring for others in this way, do not deserve swift and public rejection and ruination of ones career.

We have got to make these distinctions.

I am sure Biden may look back and say, well I get what people are saying about their space and it may have been interpreted by some as an invasion and for that I am sorry and I have learned. these instances we must find a way forward through understanding. Not attacking or looking for punishment.

To conflate this with me too?? That is a bridge to far.

Me too is not about a one time uncomfortable feeling a person had. It is about sexual harassment and assault.

[Silver Gaia]

18. Amen. (and I'm not even religious)

Thank you for this post and for this thread.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

24. "I am sure Biden may look back and say, well I get what people are saying about their space and it

may have been interpreted by some as an invasion and for that I am sorry and I have learned. these instances we must find a way forward through understanding."

I am looking forward to when he does. He hasn't yet.

[mopinko]

32. he is in a unique place to help sort this stuff out.

but he will need to make a point of it.

[IronLionZion]

17. If in doubt, don't

People should be aware of someone is feeling uncomfortable with touching, and stop.

[Silver Gaia]

21. No. "should be" and reality are not the same here.

No one can "be aware" of another person's feelings without being told what those feelings are. To expect this is unrealistic. It is the responsibility of the person who is uncomfortable to say something, to speak up, right then. Not wait years.

And BTW, it is a very easy and common thing for people to embellish memories, especially ones they dwell upon. A memory is NOT a videotape of an event. We need to be mindful of that truth as well.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. "No one can 'be aware' of another person's feelings without being told what those feelings are."

In my opinion, then, it's on the person who wants to offer touch to ask whether it's okay. Or just refrain entirely, because in some situations, even asking can be a power move.

[Cha]

136. Did Flores ask VP Biden?

Link to tweet

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. If anything, the general conversation on DU has made me realize that I'm not imagining things when

I feel like way too many people believe they have a right to touch my body if they think their intentions are good.

[boston bean]

28. It is unrealistic to think you will never experience the touch of another.

Sometimes someone hugs me and I might not like it but it was just them being nice.

So, I deal.

It is not a societal ill like sexual harassment and assault.

There are differences.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Thanks for telling me my experiences, I guess?

It IS unrealistic, because there are people who feel like their intention, that "being nice," trumps any feeling I might have in the moment, no matter how many times they're told that it's easy to ask for the consent and they should ask for consent.

It is not a societal ill like sexual harassment and assault.

Discounting women's experiences is, and there's sure a lot of that going around.

[boston bean]

35. Well, I certainly do make a distinction as to Trumps behavior vs Biden's behavior.

It really has little to do with you. Although I understand you find it objectionable on the same level.

No one asks can I hug you in a moment of jubilation or empathy. If they do it is a rare case and I really do not think you should expect it.

People who sexually harass or assault don’t ask permission. Would it be better if they did ask first.

Iit is very harmful to conflate caringjubilation/happiness/ empathy hugs or touches with sexual harassment and assault. They are not the same thing.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

39. "No one asks can I hug you in a moment of jubilation..."

Huh. I have, and people have of me.

Empathy hugs and touches and sexual harassment are not the same thing, but they can have several things in common. They can both be unwanted or non consensual, one can lead to another, discussion about them is routinely dismissed.

[boston bean]

50. In this specific case, there was NO claim of sexual harassment or assault. We cannot discuss as it

as it if might because other cases. There has been no accusation of one thing leading to another.

This is where things to off the rails for me. You cannot use Joe Biden as an example for what you are attempting to claim/explain.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

55. Fair enough. Can we talk about it as an example of how women's feelings are discounted in favor

of men's intents?

[boston bean]

61. Broadly it would be an interesting discussion and one where we probably would have little

disagreement. But in this particular case both parties agree it was non sexual. That is my bench mark in this particular case.

I have no issue with discussing it when there is a difference or different claim between the two and/or assault or harassment.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

93. .

But in this particular case both parties agree it was non sexual. That is my bench mark in this particular case.

So you think it's important to have a conversation about how women's feelings are discounted in favor of men's intents, just not in nonsexual cases? Or just not in this case?

[boston bean]

96. I think I have been clear. The latest is not me too. It is not sexual harassment or assault.

It is about an uncomfortability which doesn’t merit a public whipping of Joe Biden. It is not in the same ball park.

It is not the same thing. It is not the same in any sense.

It is an interesting discussion for women and feminists to discuss and educate and work for enlightenment. Just as it is important for all humans to understand their bodies are their own.

[IronLionZion]

31. Consent is the key issue here

No real DUer thinks Biden is a bad person or has bad intentions. But he has touched people without their consent and they felt uncomfortable and it was unwanted.

[IronLionZion]

33. If anyone feels uncertain whether it would be OK to touch someone,

then they shouldn't touch that person. It really is that simple.

I like Joe Biden too, but don't understand the arguments people are making here that it's OK to touch someone if intentions are good.

[boston bean]

37. Because the intention in this case makes all the difference. No woman is claiming Biden sexually

assaulted them.

Just they were a tad uncomfortable.

This is not something that belongs in the public sphere with me too.

Me too is not about an uncomfortable feeling about a hug from someone where there was no sexual intent. PERIOD.

It is making a perversion of a real issue.

[IronLionZion]

38. We can agree to disagree

I've always thought it was about consent

[boston bean]

80. Me too is about believing women and giving voice to women who have been sexually harassed assaulted

raped.

A collective voice of me too this has happened to me. I support you. I believe you.

It is not about a guy gave me a hug and it so not sexual but I felt an invasion of space and uncomfortable.

[doctorzuma]

41. It is not my job to figure out someone's comfort zone,

they have a mouth...it is their responsibility to say to me, "You're too close for comfort," and I will quickly back away. Something as subjective as "invasion of personal space" can't be interpreted. it needs to be directly stated.

Even if it is "after the fact"--I know sometimes, in the heat of the moment, it is so hard for me to find words, so often, I find myself thinking, "I should have said X or Y." I am at a point in my life where I tend to circle back to the person, hours, days, or even weeks later, and I say what I would have liked to have said in the moment.

[doctorzuma]

44. That's not to say I don't look for "cues" from others to help guide what I do and say but...

it gets tough to understand how someone is experiencing me if they don't offer any non-verbal or verbal responses.

[Ms. Toad]

119. Why not ask before touching them.

They shouldn't have to wrestle with how to fend off touches that make them uncomfortable.

[LibDemAlways]

48. I agree. Personal space should be respected.

That's why accidentally touching a stranger out of a momentary lapse of situational awareness requires an apology. And deliberately touching someone not well known to you should always require permission. It's a no brainer.

[uponit7771]

66. Biden is a person who most likely NEVER feels uncertain (until now). I know people like that and ...

... human touch doesn't scare them and it makes them more relatible.

On the other hand he gets the message to tone it down a bit

[IronLionZion]

75. It's up to the person being touched.

[brooklynite]

26. Always fascinating when some people tell other people what they should find acceptable...

[boston bean]

29. And what are you doing? Just being fascinated or you have an underlying demand as to how one

Makes a post on DU?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. +1

[BlancheSplanchnik]

36. Explanation of differentiation is not authoritarianism.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

34. 👍🏾👏🏾

[rainin]

40. I can find two people ...

two people who think I'm compassionate
two people who think I'm heartless

two people who think i'm demanding
two people who think i'm spineless

two people who think I'm flirty
two people who think I'm a prude

Get a grip people. We can't be silly right now. We're smarter than that. Aren't we?

[Bayard]

52. Just for the record....

I have no problem with Joe Biden kissing the back of my head.

I put this in a whole different category than the times I was raped, groped, forcibly kissed, physically attacked, or stalked. I am a card-carrying member of the Me Too movement, but I still enjoy giving and receiving hugs. The only person I ever RECALL looking uncomfortable was one of my male attorneys in Calif., but he was already pissed at me.

I am uncomfortable with the "Uncomfortable Movement". It looks like a political tool to bring down Democrats. I still mourn the loss of Al Franken in the Senate.

[ms liberty]

123. Well said. n/t

[c-rational]

53. Thank you for this post and I completely agree. This latest issue is about being uncomfortable

Last edited Wed Apr 3, 2019, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

and has nothing to do with #me too IMO. I have also had personal moments when I am uncomfortable being touched and one occurred in our elevator recently when someone put their hand on my shoulder- I am male and in my 60's but I did not allow it to ruin my day nor did i report it, nor will I report it at next year's shareholder meeting.

I have been dismayed over the last several days of the few posters who overpopulate threads suggesting Biden's behavior rises to the level that he should not enter the race, or he needs to explain himself, when he did give a good response. Their posts are clever and do not rise to the alert level, and yet IMO they add nothing to the discussion of relevant politics, and suck the positive energy out of the room. Maybe we should develop a Special Alert Button and call it the Jerk.

[doompatrol39]

56. Well, I guess I have to let my daughter know.

I had previously told her that she needed to make sure men respect her boundaries, and that they don't think it is o.k. to touch her in any capacity without her consent and that especially in a professional working environment that such actions are not o.k..

I completely forgot to add the "Unless there is someone else who is worse like Trump, then it's o.k." or the "If they are a Democrat" or "If I support them for president." or "Only do it if you aren't on record supporting someone else for president".

[boston bean]

58. You can teach your daughter what you please and I think you give rather good advice.

What you and she can't do is conflate a non sexual hug or touch as sexual harassment or assault because of an uncomfortable feeling that is described as just that. And continue on to conflate the two and ruin someone's life.

[uponit7771]

69. ... to speak up if someone goes too far. It could've stopped there no? tia

[MicaelS]

70. I am not willing to commit political suicide.

You opinion may differ. If you think there is a backlash against #Metoo now, let Trump win again and see what happens.

[doompatrol39]

82. You realize that Biden is not our only candidate, right?

Yes, if this were the general election our choice would be between two people and we would have to choose between them.

This is the primary season. This is where we decide who we are and what we stand for and what we want to put out there.

[MicaelS]

109. Sure, I understand that.

The best thing for Biden to do, would be for him to address this directly, and for him to say he will change his behavior. Let the people indicate if they want a hug or kiss when he is out and about.

If this happens again with a DIFFERENT candidate, then as the Ian Fleming saying goes...

“Once is happenstance.

Twice is coincidence.

Three times is enemy action”

Then we need to identify the enemy, and if possible, expel them from the primary and the party.

[Demsrule86]

59. Thank you for this.

[csziggy]

64. Women are not taught to indicate when they are uncomfortable

Or even how to send off signals of "Don't mess with me!"

My Mom taught me that when I did not like how my grandfather tickled me when I was a toddler. She told me to just stiffen up, not respond, and pull away. I did that once with Granddad and after that he did not tickle me any more.

As I got older, I learned to give off negative vibes to men that show I am not interested in shows of affection - I also can allow it by my attitude and body language when the person is someone I welcome a hug or affection from. It is not an innate thing - it was learned and perfected. But it was learned and perfected by the time I was sixteen.

If Joe Biden (or any man) had grabbed my shoulders and I was uncomfortable with that, I would have stiffened my entire body indicating my lack of ease. I believe that Mr. Biden is sensitive enough that he would have immediately let go and stepped away.

Instead of learning this kind of reaction girls are taught that they must give in, not complain, and allow unwelcome contact. With the #MeToo movement women are indicating their preferences but I doubt they have learned how to convey them with their attitudes and body language.

I we want #MeToo to be an effective movement we need to start teaching young women HOW to prevent casual unwanted contacts as well as how to stop completely unwanted assaults.

[boston bean]

71. I do agree with this.

But what cannot happen is to allow me too to be used in a fashion that punishes every offense the same or be put on the same level. That is harmful to not just men, but women.

A personal uncomfortable feeling about a hug or touch that was non sexual or you felt an invasion of personal space is nothing close to sexual harassment or assault. I am sorry it is not, and it does not deserve the same public outcry.

One is a patriarchal issue where us women do have some control over how to deal with it. In a harassment or assault, your agency is taken from you completely and the effects of it are extremely detrimental.

Not the same with a casual, non sexual touch.

[csziggy]

81. Correct - not every touch is a bad touch

I have stayed out of the Flores debate but I think she is being used in a way to hurt the Democratic Party - especially since she made the accusation against Joe Biden but not against Bernie Sanders who is also in photos "invading her space."

As I said, it is easy enough to telegraph discomfort with a touch whether it is sexual or casual - but children are not taught this. I only talked about girls, but boys need to learn this, too. Sure, a predator will ignore the signals, but someone who only means a benign contact will notice and stop - as did my grandfather.

When a man ignored my signals, I have done something as simple as turning rapidly with my elbows out, hitting the man sharply with the points of my elbows. I then seriously apologized for not realizing they were "that" close that my turning would impact them. Nothing makes a casual predator back off better than an "unintended" blow to their midsection.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

67. Oh shit. Beto just conflated the two. Disappointing

to me. By saying it takes an "extreme amount of courage" to come forward because someone was uncomfortable is just bullshit.

There goes my theory that Biden and Beto we're a pre-arranged team

[RobinA]

68. I Agree With You Completely,

but one of my objections to #metoo is that I’ve always felt that it included a fairly large dose of #iuncomfortable.

[peggysue2]

73. Thank you for this, BB

Absolutely on the mark and a way to regain the narrative for our candidates and for the important message that is the MeToo movement which is, in fact, being hijacked for political purposes.

A good thing can always go too far. This is a prime and rather sickening example.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

74. Got that right. The distinction must be made.

I've commented in a few other threads that I don't care to be touched, hugged, patted, etc. by people I don't know because I need a fair amount of personal space, and intruding on it does make me uncomfortable. However, I've stated as well that I can easily distinguish excessive familiarity from sexual predation. The former will make me uncomfortable in the instant but it's tolerable - I can shrug it off and not think of it again - while the latter is offensive and intolerable. Both Biden and Franken have been victims of the failure to make that distinction. I hope the people who were so eager to pillory Franken in the name of #MeToo can see what a foolish mistake they made now that it's being turned on the front-running presidential candidate.

Maybe a good rule of thumb for politicians is to start out with the offer of a handshake; it's possible to seem friendly, warm and welcoming through words, facial expressions and gestures without hugging, and one can avoid unfair accusations in an atmosphere where some people, for various reasons, are looking for an excuse to make them.

[shanny]

76. I don't think you get to define

what the #me too movement is or isn't. For anyone other than yourself. eom

[boston bean]

78. I am sure I have a pretty firm grasp on it. Thank you.

[Mme. Defarge]

84. You speak for moi aussi!

[MadDAsHell]

85. I'm not sure any of us get to define the #metoo movement.

The movement involves millions of people. What gives any of us the right to put a fence around it?

[boston bean]

86. The movement is about sexual harassment and assault. Full stop.

It is not about I was briefly made to feel uncomfortable about a non sexual touch by a man.

[MadDAsHell]

87. So you're defining what it is or isn't for the rest of the world?

Is that how this works?

[boston bean]

91. No I am telling you what it is. I am not defining it. It is what it is.

[MadDAsHell]

94. Ok. If the replies to your OP are indicative of the larger world...

then I'm guessing hundreds of millions worldwide would disagree with your "it is what it is" black-and-white conclusion.

Which means it isn't black-and-white at all.

[boston bean]

97. It is about sexual violence. No matter what you are reading here. Those people are wrong.

Ok. Is that clear.

[LanternWaste]

105. You then believe no large movement of shared sentiment may be defined?

If not, what is the precise and relevant difference in expressing the opinion this collective sentiment may not be defined as opposed to all other defined movements?

[flotsam]

92. 1st time I K&R'd you

We disagree on a LOT-but you got this one right and I thank you!

[Vinca]

95. In some ways, this is more embarrassing for women at large than for Biden.

I'm horrified at the absolute fragility I get from the "uncomfortable" reports. Life can be "uncomfortable." I swear I'm starting to think about designing clothing out of bubble wrap for these people. I just heard Andrea Mitchell talking about this on MSNBC. How many days is this going to be a huge news story???? Meanwhile, back at the White House, I imagine female staff members wear armor-plated underwear to keep those horrid tiny hands away.

[LongtimeAZDem]

101. +∞

[Hekate]

98. Thank you, boston bean. It was hard for me to decide to declare #metoo, and now I see how ...

...it is being twisted for political destruction. It's too easy to twist, too easy to mock, too easy to bait liberals into self-righteously stoning our own to death.

Ultimately, who does this outcome protect? #notwomen

[wryter2000]

99. Agree totally

I was raped. That's Me Too.

I had a boss who touched me in a non sexual way a couple of times. Once, he came up behind me and put his hand on my shoulder. I was startled. I know the difference between those two things.

That boss was one of the best I ever had. I loved working with him.

[Caliman73]

122. What if he was kind of a jerk?

Not in a sexual way, but just in a jerky way, would that have made a difference in your experience of the incident?

I think that people tend to get caught up in the perception (Likely valid) that Biden is just a nice guy who is a hugger/touchy/expressive etc...

I am not equating what Biden did to Trump but I think that people tend to interpret actions based on how they generally feel about a person, with very obvious exceptions of sexual assault or violent acts.

A person you perceive as creepy is going to cause feelings of violation much more than a person who you genuinely like, for likely the very same touch.

[wryter2000]

142. Good question

First, though, jerk and creepy are two different things. The person would almost have to be making sexual advances to be creepy. And those are out-of-bounds whether from a good boss or a bad one.

If the person was just a jerk, I guess it would matter what I thought his motives were. As long as they didn't feel sexual to me, I wouldn't label it as sexual harassment. I guess there might be other kinds of harassment, and I might feel he needed to be reported to HR if he persisted. But that's not "Me, too."

Thing is, when we're having to make interpretations and fine distinctions, we're not near the same league as an actress to who has to give a man sex to advance or save her career. Nor are we talking about the guy who constantly makes sexually-loaded remarks and suggestions to his coworkers or has a lock installed on his office door so women can't escape him.

[Caliman73]

146. I agree with your points.

The problem I have is that this woman is being maligned on the forum and people are saying that her feelings and experience do not matter.

I am not saying in any way, that Biden should be punished or not run, or anything. I do think that it is a moment where we can come to a better understanding of the many ways that women have to deal with their personal space and their bodies in ways that men rarely have to. I think that Biden can certainly come out of this situation without any damage to his reputation or chances at a 2020 run.

I just don't like seeing people dismissed out of hand because there is some rubric that has not been satisfied. If Tom Hanks were accused of being a harasser, I would have a difficult time accepting it based on decades of widespread understanding that he seems to be one of the most decent people in show business, but based on evidence, I would have to accept the situation if woman after woman came out and said he had done things to them.

We should resist a Ready, Fire!, Aim mentality from both perspectives.

[elleng]

102. Yes

[George II]

103. I took the NYC subway to high school and college for more than 7 years, I can't tell you....

....how many times I felt "uncomfortable" or came in contact with someone. It happens in crowds or groups of people.

If it was on the back* of her head, how did she know it was a "big slow kiss"?

*later it became the top of her head after it was pointed out that he's about 10 inches taller than him.

[pdsimdars]

104. This is going to ruin it for the metoo movement. . . . nonstop, all day, he hugged me and I felt bad

[Thekaspervote]

111. You right.. it's not Thank you for your post !!!

[athena]

112. I'm sorry BB, but I disagree with you on this one.

I am not talking about Biden but about the general phenomenon where DUers are now saying that it’s OK to hug or kiss women, pat them on the back or shoulder, touch their arm, rest a hand on their thigh, or give them a squeeze on the waist.

Men who are touchy and feely with women but not with men are sending a message that women are playthings and sex objects and don’t deserve the same level of respect as men. (Indeed, the women such men touch are invariably young and beautiful, which leads one to suspect that the behavior is not as non-sexual as is being claimed.)

If a man doing something to a man he’s not sexually involved with would be considered weird or inappropriate, it’s also inappropriate when the recipient is a woman. Women are not pieces of meat to be manhandled. Men should treat women with respect. Period. It should not be necessary for a woman to have to ask to be treated with respect.

Again, this has nothing to do with Biden. Biden is from a different era. I don’t want to live in that era. I want to live in, or at least work toward, a world in which women are equal to men and are treated with respect.

[boston bean]

113. Hi Athena. I can respect what you wrote.

Please note I am specifically speaking of this particular scenario.

A woman feeling uncomfortable but not in a sexual way, as clearly stated, does not meet the standard of sexual harassment or assault. It just doesn’t.

That doesn’t mean people haven’t won’t don’t over step bounds of personal space.

There are different remedies and I do not think it belongs in the public sphere for people to make judgments that man or woman can continue in public life life of their work.

[athena]

116. Thank you for clarifying. I understand your concern.

Sexual assault and rape have pretty clear definitions, and this specific behavior doesn’t qualify. I agree that equating a man who is unaggressively touchy-feely with a sexual predator is wrong. We all make mistakes and misjudge situations. I think that Biden has handled this extremely well.

[Sparkly]

132. So it's okay if it's just patronizing

as long as there's nothing sexual about it?

Who decides where those judgments or boundaries are?

And of more relevance, can we infer anything about a man who isn't sure? Just asking.

[hurple]

120. Yes

Agree

[highplainsdem]

124. K&R. Agree completely..

[LAS14]

125. Very well stated! Thanks!! nt

[Tarc]

130. Incels mount their defense

[Sparkly]

133. ...

Who are you calling "incels?"

[Beartracks]

135. And being uncomfortable doesn't mean some action was "inappropriate."

[Cha]

137. Mahalo, bostonbean.. someone had

to speak out on what the #Metoo Movement is about.

They can have their #I'mUncomfortable movement.

[NotHardly]

138. Touching someone without permission is 'simple assault'... look it up... every state has such a law

If you have never been the recipient of unwanted touching (kissing, grabbing( arm, elbow, hand, face, shoulder or shoulders, leg, etc) it is assault, simple (without a weapon or other potentially injurious device) and is a felony. Look it up Boston, the law says it plainly.

[IluvPitties]

140. So Joe would be guilty of assault?

LOL!

[bigtree]

143. so we launch a new movement to deem unwanted touching acceptable, especially for politicians

...what do we call it?

'Fuck your personal space?'

[boston bean]

145. yeah that's exactly what I said.