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Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:56 AM

Astonishing! The 13th Century Rose stained glass windows at Notre Dame, are intact!

I never even imagined they would survive the fire.

61 replies, 4657 views

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Reply Astonishing! The 13th Century Rose stained glass windows at Notre Dame, are intact! (Original post)
Siwsan Apr 2019 OP
renate Apr 2019 #1
marble falls Apr 2019 #2
Siwsan Apr 2019 #5
marble falls Apr 2019 #7
Siwsan Apr 2019 #8
marble falls Apr 2019 #57
forgotmylogin Apr 2019 #52
marble falls Apr 2019 #58
Silver Gaia Apr 2019 #34
unc70 Apr 2019 #3
Siwsan Apr 2019 #6
defacto7 Apr 2019 #19
defacto7 Apr 2019 #25
Siwsan Apr 2019 #26
defacto7 Apr 2019 #29
TrogL Apr 2019 #55
defacto7 Apr 2019 #59
LisaM Apr 2019 #4
Siwsan Apr 2019 #9
lostnfound Apr 2019 #11
Raster Apr 2019 #14
Raster Apr 2019 #13
Politicub Apr 2019 #35
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #51
samnsara Apr 2019 #10
malaise Apr 2019 #12
Siwsan Apr 2019 #15
Efilroft Sul Apr 2019 #17
Siwsan Apr 2019 #18
Efilroft Sul Apr 2019 #24
artislife Apr 2019 #43
Efilroft Sul Apr 2019 #45
artislife Apr 2019 #47
yellowdogintexas Apr 2019 #48
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #53
BigmanPigman Apr 2019 #23
sdfernando Apr 2019 #28
BigmanPigman Apr 2019 #30
Silver Gaia Apr 2019 #36
BigmanPigman Apr 2019 #37
Silver Gaia Apr 2019 #41
BigmanPigman Apr 2019 #42
yellowdogintexas Apr 2019 #49
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #56
meadowlander Apr 2019 #40
suffragette Apr 2019 #31
ProfessorGAC Apr 2019 #46
hunter Apr 2019 #61
California_Republic Apr 2019 #16
dlk Apr 2019 #20
burrowowl Apr 2019 #21
pansypoo53219 Apr 2019 #39
Dave Starsky Apr 2019 #44
pansypoo53219 Apr 2019 #60
pazzyanne Apr 2019 #22
defacto7 Apr 2019 #27
suffragette Apr 2019 #32
defacto7 Apr 2019 #33
suffragette Apr 2019 #38
TrogL Apr 2019 #54
Pisces Apr 2019 #50

Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:59 AM

1. Wow! That's incredible!

Incroyable! Et merveilleux!

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:05 PM

2. This a bit of good news and I hope an omen.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:10 PM

5. I found an article listing what's been saved, and what they are still searching for.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:12 PM

7. I was really amazed how much they got out. That there's more that will be saved is a blessing.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:16 PM

8. No doubt, people took no consideration for their own safety, to save what they could

People invest a whole lot of faith into things like relics. I fall deeply into the skeptic crowd, but still appreciate what would drive someone to put their own lives on the line to save what they believe to be sacred.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:31 PM

57. I understand that fire fighters were inside fighting the fire in the roof. That took courage.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:58 AM

52. It was probably fortunate they were doing renovations

and most of the valuable artifacts had likely been relocated out of the way to another location or...underground? I'd suppose there's a vault or a catacomb?

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #52)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:32 PM

58. Some were being held in high security locations away from the ND. What if the crypts filled with ...

water from the firefighters?

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:11 PM

34. Thanks.

There are lots of pictures, including before and after pics, and a drawing/diagram of the building showing what was lost, damaged, and saved. This was very helpful!

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:08 PM

3. The fire was mostly above the windows

So much of the damage was restricted to the roof. The lower levels, some still "high", were subjected to falling debris in flames, but that greatly limited the damage. The pews, the pulpit, the altar -- mostly intact. Even the organ.

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Response to unc70 (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:12 PM

6. From what I read, the fear was that they could explode (or implode?)

Or that some melting had occurred. I suspect everyone's mind set was in 'worst case scenario' mode.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:51 PM

19. I'm an organ curator and care for a very large leaded glass window as well.

It is an amazing feat of ingenuity and excellent fire fighting that the windows survived. The organ on the other hand waits to be seen. I've personally assesed damage from fire and water on pipe organs and I can say that if the organ survived it would be close to miraculous. I can give technical details but maybe we can just wait and see. I'm sure the instrument can be rebuilt but it will be tantamount to a replacement.

I'm extremely happy to hear about the windows.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:36 PM

25. I just received an email from one of the organists

at Notre Dame who told me that by his observation the organ DID survive both the fire AND the water from the fire fighters thanks to their professional forethought.

I'm amazed and elated.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #25)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:37 PM

26. That's wonderful news!!

Yesterday I was absolutely dwelling in feelings of loss and grief. Today I am feeling exactly the same as you expressed.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:46 PM

29. Sometimes terrible things like this bring people together

and show the strength of bonds that we overlook so many times. Yesterday the world was grieving, today their's a sense of hope and renewal. I think hope and the human spirit wins out.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 11:41 AM

55. I've heard the Choir division may have some water damage

Itís repairable

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Response to TrogL (Reply #55)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 04:33 PM

59. I heard something on the net to that effect but it wasn't mentioned

by messieur Latry. If that's all that happened it's still pretty miraculous.

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:09 PM

4. These images of Notre Dame are making me choke up.

I can't explain it; I've started openly sobbing at some of the images several times in the past few days. It's like I've had emotions pent up for years, and somehow the French spirit and the beauty of what's left are pushing them all out.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:20 PM

9. When ever I'm in one of these ancient buildings, I marvel at the skills it took to build them

800 and 900 year old structures that took decades and decades to build, by hand. The masonry, the carvings, the glass work - it is absolutely breathtaking. I can feel the centuries old energy of the people who built them, and worshiped in them.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:54 PM

11. It was built with love by human hands 8 centuries ago

it is 7th generation x 10
Humanity breaks free of time in very few ways

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Response to lostnfound (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:00 PM

14. seemingly timeless wonders in our oh-so short-timed live.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:59 PM

13. I am still choked up. I have never been to Paris, however, it is on my bucket list...

...and the Cathedral IS high on my list to visit.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:12 PM

35. I don't know why, but I was crying, too

And seeing the spire fall was overwhelming. Judging by the blaze, I thought the whole structure would crumble.

But the next day we saw that the walls and bell towers held. That caused me to tear up again. This time it was tears in awe of human ingenuity through the ages.

Without the brilliant Paris fire department, it could have been so much worse. The choices they made in those critical moments were so important.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:50 AM

51. The thing that got me was the video of all the people watching the fire and singing.

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:21 PM

10. they need to re lead those windows asap

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 12:55 PM

12. We should never listen to commentary during these horrific

events - they said the stain glassed windows were melting

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:13 PM

15. True.

I think people's imaginations were overtaking the reality of what they were seeing, because it was so shocking. I fully anticipated seeing a pile of rubble, on the foundation.

I did hear that they are debating how to rebuild/restore - keep it to the Gothic style, or something more modern. I HOPE they keep the Gothic style and restore it to its previous glory. They rebuilt Coventry Cathedral in a modern form, and I absolutely hate it. Not at all my idea of majestic.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:39 PM

17. I never met anyone who experienced awe and a sense of sacredness in a modern church.

Their architecture is cold, soulless, and does nothing to make one feel closer to God.

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Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:44 PM

18. And so much of the Notre Dame structure is still intact

Putting any modernistic roofing style on top of that Gothic beauty would ruin the aesthetics. I understand they probably can't duplicate the original structure but they certain can come up with a reasonable facsimile.

The same with any interior restorations. There is a reason such buildings, inside and outside, strike people with such a sense of awe.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #18)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:28 PM

24. Totally agree with your entire post.

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Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:38 AM

43. My family was Catholic

 

My Native/Mexican dad married and Irish woman and we went to a modern, kumbaya guitar playing Catholic church near Pomona.

But the real magic, was the dark Catholic church in the old Italian section of San Diego where my Mexican grandmother would take me. There, Jesus bled and Mary wept. The stations of the cross were graphic, the air dank and the flicker of the candles nestled in their red holders calling to us to pay a dime to pray to God. It was where you said your most fervent prayers, because He surely was listening there.

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Response to artislife (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:23 AM

45. I can totally relate to your experience regarding the San Diego church.

I live here in Pittsburgh, and we had several Catholic churches with darkened "grottoes" with red glass candle holders guarded by armored archangels and the like. One church had painted ceiling art that clearly took inspiration from the Sistine Chapel, and sadly, when everything took this modern bend, the artwork was whitewashed! Such shortsightedness...

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Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #45)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:02 AM

47. I can just see it

 

Sad that they painted over the mural. I love religious art from all the centuries. Not a believer in the Virgin birth but love the depictions.

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Response to Efilroft Sul (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:44 AM

48. I dislike modern churches immensely.

Our church is built in the Gothic style and resembles Notre Dame somewhat. Big square bell towers, one taller than the other though, three entrances like Notre Dame etc. Ground was broken in 1929 and it has had two restorations of the sanctuary and some annexes built. The additions were designed to blend seamlessly into the originals. The last sanctuary update did put a modern flair but only in the floor area at the very front of the church. New slate tilework, portable communion rails ( handy for when we host concerts with chamber orchestras, etc.) Some of it was done to accomodate the new organ we installed a few years ago.

The first time I walked into the sanctuary, I was just stunned with its grace and beauty. I would be appalled if those damn screens so many new churches install every show up in the sanctuary - I hate them with a passion. I think the congregaton would revolt!

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/mourners-attend-the-funeral-service-for-jim-wright-the-news-photo/473000718

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/98516310575124342/?lp=true


I have seen one fairly modern church that I liked: Boston Avenue UMC in Tulsa. It is pure Art Deco and is gorgeous.

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Response to yellowdogintexas (Reply #48)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 11:03 AM

53. A lot of modern church architecture is awful. One exception is Hallgrimskirkja in Reykjavik,

completed in the '80s, which is pretty neat.

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:15 PM

23. I vote for restoring it exactly the way it was.

That would honor the building and its history.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:45 PM

28. That is not possible but they can get it close and make it appear to be the same.

It will be pretty much impossible to gather large Oak trees to rebuild that roof. I was reading where 12 acres of old growth Oak forest was leveled to build the original roof. Each roof timber was basically one Oak tree. These size trees simply don't exist any longer. Nor will they use lead for the roofing tiles....too much of a health risk and don't want lead leaching out into the ground water.

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Response to sdfernando (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:47 PM

30. They won't be able to replace it but

they can restore it so that it is very close to the original and make it appear like it used to. That is what I would like to see. It will take about 20-30 years (someone on the news said this) to restore it but it will be worth it.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #30)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:21 PM

36. I agree.

And I think that is most likely what will happen.

I hope it is finished in less time because I would like to see it restored in my lifetime. I had hoped to visit Paris someday and Notre Dame was definitely something I wanted to see.

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Response to Silver Gaia (Reply #36)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:27 PM

37. If it's part of you bucket list so you MUST go to the

Notre Dame Redux.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #37)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:15 PM

41. Thanks.

Fingers crossed. Candles lit.

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Response to Silver Gaia (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 11:28 PM

42. Macron said that it should be complete in 5 years...

That seems awfully quick to me but it makes your chances of going more likely. I liked Paris (you must visit the famous cemetery too) but I prefer to visit Nice for a long stay with my little dog.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:46 AM

49. Absolutely! See: Dresden nt

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Response to sdfernando (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 12:28 PM

56. They will probably use modern materials to restore the roof, since

those interior beams won't be visible anyhow.

The Dresden Frauenkirche was rebuilt from the ground up after it was completely destroyed in WWII. It wasn't nearly as old as Notre Dame, but because it was built in the mid-18th century the plans still existed so they were able to use those plans to rebuild it exactly. But a friend who visited told me that it didn't have a lived-in look yet because the rebuilding was completed so recently (1994-2004).

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Response to Siwsan (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 06:56 PM

40. My inner pagan likes some of the free form tree canopy and Ngai Tahu

inspired proposals in and around the ruins of Christ Church Cathedral.





https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/104673362/cathedral-square-design-will-fix-christchurchs-damaged-and-uninviting-heart

Alternately keeping the ruins with a glass walkway through them and a reflecting pool:



https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/the-rebuild/95934213/adventurous-plan-would-keep-christ-church-cathedral-a-ruin-surrounded-by-reflective-pool

Makes a lot more sense in a modern secular society than tax payers stumping up to replace something that is irreplaceable when a lot of our values have moved on from the ones that inspired the original.

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:01 PM

31. I think some of that was due to the many stained glass windows in Notre Dame. People speak of

ďtheĒ rose window, but there are actually three with varying sizes: the north, south and west. Plus there are so many more stained glass windows in addition to these. I think it became confusing as to which windows were shattered and which were not. Understandably so, given pictures with flame shooting through one window (I think that was the one above the south rose) and all the smoke.

Still, you make a great point about commentary during such an event. Itís bound to be confused, not just by the above but also by people voicing their fears as fact.

It is amazing that the three rose windows all survived.

The old bones of our lady stood strong in keeping so much of the fire and the roof from parts of the interior. That speaks to the enduring strength of the construction and restorations as well as the bravery and dedication of the fire fighters.

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:35 AM

46. I Think They Were Actually Concerned...

...with a softening of the lead. Not quite melting, but easier to say melting.
If the lead gets fluid enough and loses a significant amount of tensile strength, the weight of the glass supersedes the strength of the lead holding the window together.
Then the whole thing starts falling apart.
Not really melting, but the windows would still be ruined.

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 06:03 PM

61. I did hours and hours of Y2K medical software testing in the early 'nineties...

... playing the roll of pessimist and a Murphy's Law random fool. Hit any function key. Shit written in COBOL.

And people still claim Y2K was no big deal. I personally know of a credit card payment processing system that went down. A family friend was on call for that, and she and her team miraculously resolved the problem in about three hours, which must have seemed like forever for those whose credit card payments were denied, especially people stuck in airports, or unable to rent cars.

Myself, I was with my family incognito on Disneyland's Space Mountain, not my problem, trusting the roller coaster's software was Y2K compliant.

The most professional and pessimistic fire fighters were best equipped to save things.

It didn't translate well to television news.

Nothing translates well to television news.


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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:16 PM

16. They bravely put firefighters on the inside

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 01:56 PM

20. A Miracle!

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:07 PM

21. Wow!

I'm surprised the lead holding the glass in place didn't melt

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Response to burrowowl (Reply #21)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 06:41 PM

39. needs much more heat to melt glass.or no tiffany lamps.

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Response to pansypoo53219 (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 07:01 AM

44. Lead (which holds the glass together) melts at around 600 F.

Wood fires can easily produce two or three times that.

Fortunately, it looks like that kind of heat was above the windows.

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Response to Dave Starsky (Reply #44)

Thu Apr 18, 2019, 05:27 PM

60. with restoration, may have used a stronger allow, but yeah. lead is soft.

when i was doing reproduction lampshades, we used 50/50solder. (we faked experts- we made them how tiffany did)

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:11 PM

22. Thank goodness!

Hopefully there will be addition good news in coming news cycles.

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 02:41 PM

27. The organ DID survive.

I just received an email from one of their organists with whom I am aquainted who observed it himself. No fire, little if any water damage. I'm amazed... just amazed.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:02 PM

32. That there is little water damage is amazing in itself. Very good news, indeed!

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Response to suffragette (Reply #32)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:11 PM

33. Indeed! Monsieur Latry said..

"...miraculously the organ survived. It is a bit dusty but will enjoy us again when the Cathedral is rebuilt."

Dusty..

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 16, 2019, 03:28 PM

38. Dusty - now that's some understatement.

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Response to defacto7 (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 11:40 AM

54. The Great division is fine. The Choir division has some water damage

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Response to Siwsan (Original post)

Wed Apr 17, 2019, 10:49 AM

50. Wow!!

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