General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think if we need to wait for bipartisanship before impeaching
Then it renders the process worthless.
We're going to be waiting a long time.
"Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there's something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don't think we should go down that path, because it divides the country."
I disagree with Nancy on this bipartisanship requirement and called my Representative to ask him to push for starting the process.
TwilightZone
(25,428 posts)As for what renders the process worthless, that would be an impeachment without a conviction.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Would bring forward such compelling evidence I think it would force the Senate's hand.
At the very least it would get their votes on record.
If we don't be brave and start then we will never know.
Furthermore, I think not doing it makes our party look weak and we lose votes.
Pachamama
(16,884 posts)I also believe that even if the impeachment then failed to bring removal from office, the evidence would be public and so overwhelming that the public would be so outraged that the 2020 election would find Republican House and Senate members voted out of office swiftly....along with Trump.....
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)let's say that the House votes to impeach Trump and they get maybe 20-30 Republicans to go along with it because of the evidence presented in public and behind closed doors (national security) is so compelling. So, that's maybe 260 or so votes to impeach and 175 against it.
Is Mitch McConnell required to have a trial in the Senate, or could he sit on it and not allow a vote like he does with so many other things passed by the House? Not to mention sitting on Merrick Garland for a year.
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)The necessary goal is filing the Articles of Impeachment and beginning the process, which allows Dems in the House investigatory powers that can produce information that will propel the electorate to repudiate Trump.
The GOAL is bigger than impeachment itself. The GOAL is to galvanize public opinion against Trump and Republicans ASAP.
Think strategically.
onetexan
(13,020 posts)Is the best thing we can do ahead of 2020
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)must play out. And yes, they need to be improved against the next time our electorate might vote to give an intensely corrupted party control of the senate as well as the presidency. In the meantime, we protect.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)be enough House votes to get out of there....to actually impeach in the House?
Then what?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... about issues during impeachment process.
Basically stops the bullshitting.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Today's senate is extremely corrupt. They'd manipulate it to show the entire nation that the Democrats are trying to illicitly remove a president we don't like. And that they're the saviors.
Where we are now is far from the worst things could be. We could lose the power of our vote and with it our personal freedoms and democracy. I'm convinced they've decided on that solution to the demographic and social progressions that guarantee they will lose elections until the white man's party no longer exists. And they have a lot of support among the electorate, including those right here who want to discard the very democratic principles and processes that make up our fortress.
When the necessary elements come together, we will act.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... where you got that from.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)What some probably imagine is strength appears to others as weakness.
With no payoff for being criminally stupid, and potentially dreadful cost, perhaps we should exercise a little self control instead. Maybe take up some nice, calming hobbies because what took decades to evolve won't be fixed for some while. There's no magically satisfying shortcut.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... the house brings them before them for questioning is huge.
Right now there's no obstruction of justice charge that can be brought its just lying to congress which is not a crime any longer seeing it's seldom enforced.
Also, Barr has already said congress wont get the full report unless there's an impeachment process brought.
Barr can't go to congress and lie like he did in the 90s about the OLC procedures either.
With an impeachment the consequences for lying and stonewalling get serious ... jail time is added on
maxsolomon
(33,251 posts)The House managers of Impeachment function as the prosecutors.
Roberts would be the presiding judge.
Senators are the jury.
I remember BECAUSE THE GOP DID IT <20 YEARS AGO.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Wish this reality was more reassuring, but it involves huge elements of uncertainty and even bigger dangers. If Roberts joined the Republican corruption to protect the president from accountability to the people, the consequences would almost certainly ultimately extend far beyond just failing to remove.
I'm sure our congressional leaders and their advisers have plotted out every conceivable path and outcome. How on earth do they sleep, even with the hours they work?
maxsolomon
(33,251 posts)Well, that's how the Bush Administration slept after invading Iraq.
I prefer Roberts over any of the other 4 Repuke assholes on the court.
watoos
(7,142 posts)Not enough Ted Kennedys, Al Frankens and AOCs.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Not move deadlines, deliver strongly worded letters, or issue subpoenas you don't intend to enforce.
None of that works.
None of it.
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)..and allows Team Trump to set the narrative.
The American people cry for strong leadership from Dems.
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)He openly commits felonies, but nothing is ever done about it.
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)If not for our watchdog press, we wouldn't even know....
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)and a failed impeachment process?
Aside from ending it by giving the ball to McConnell, letting him spike it, and having Trump take a victory lap?
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)Nevermypresident
(781 posts)I agree with Shred wholeheartedly.
Trump is such a horrible President and Commander in Chief (we could all list 50 adjectives to describe him). To not try is wrong for our nation, it's values, our national security, our democracy.
It's time to get access to all the evidence. No more stonewalling and fuc_ery re the Mueller Report and tax returns a formal judicial impeachment investigation would provide.
This is as much about the open process during a House Judiciary Committee Impeachment investigation that could actually help us win in 2020, even if the Senate trial doesn't go our way.
I love Pelosi but no longer agree with her strategy. She thinks impeachment is so divisive to our country? Seriously?!? We are there already...
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)Pachamama
(16,884 posts)Completely agree....
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Karadeniz
(22,474 posts)instead of supporting their purposes, lies to the people, abuses power, does not defend laws, stirs up hate and fear for political purposes, knowingly harms middle class citizens, obstructs justice, ignores his nepotism and cronyism, defends nations hostile to us, undermines allies thus jeopardizing natl security, conducts deals in secret...I bet most of this could be turned into impeachable offenses.
As I've said before, even if he's not convicted, he'll always have "impeached" after his name. And the process will do a good job of getting his corruption public.
Great points.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Letting a disastrous crook of a president off scott free with no impeachment hearings will more than likely result in disaster for the Democratic Party.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... post impeachment.
Red Don isn't lying about a BJ
Fiendish Thingy
(15,551 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)Just having the majority is not enough. There is no guarantee all of the House Dems would support impeachment. Putting the few Dems in districts/states that support republicans in the position to vote for impeachment could easily backfire for them in the worst way. They could face a backlash from Democrats for voting for it at the same time as a massive republican mobilization.
There were a few republicans who crossed over to oppose Clinton's impeachment. The potential long term damage is not likely to be worth short lived satisfaction. I think Pelosi knows what she's doing.
brooklynite
(94,358 posts)Because Impeachment without Conviction will help achieve that.
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)You are simply wrong.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What part of "impeachment without the Senate will mean he is not removed, and he will say he was "exonerated" and the GOP will work the term "failed Democrat witch hunt" into every single campaign ad.
How many times must this "failure" of the strategy of impeachment be explained to you?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Perhaps the concept of a "discussion board" is unclear?
brooklynite
(94,358 posts)...but perhaps anonymous bloggers know better.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)FBaggins
(26,721 posts)Or are we talking about the speaker... the highest-ranking Democrat in the country?
You imagine that shes alone in that opinion???
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... against impeachment is falling apart.
We'll see, at some point the stonewalling by the KGOP is going to get fever pitch and the "we can't do nothin" isn't going to fly anymore.
FBaggins
(26,721 posts)We dont have anywhere near the votes to impeach.
We can debate all we like re: whether impeachment without conviction helps or hurts, but losing a vote on impeachment itself has no upside at all.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... but there's not going to be a dem in congress who's going to vote against impeaching red don expect to keep their seat.
Voted against impeachment would be the who subject of their primary.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... piece in FAUX News and the rest of Conservative Winger World working for them.
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)The Republican party never ever compromises so it's pointless making deals with them
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... with republicans.
NEVER
RandiFan1290
(6,221 posts)Nice try, though.
Start impeachment NOW
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... be as popular with democrats as Clinton was with republicans in the late 90s.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Is there anything which would even force McConnell to take the matter up? Or could he just ignore it indefinitely?
Is there anything which would force him to take it at all seriously? Or could he just hold a voice vote, laugh it off, and bury it before his first cup of coffee?
Assuming the timetable isn't strictly prescribed and enforceable, would McConnell have it killed five minutes after it hit the Senate? Or would he just pocket it and declare it an official witch hunt the next time he needed a distraction or Trump needed a bump in the polls?
brooklynite
(94,358 posts)The prospect of losing the Senate when Republicans vote against Conviction after iron-clad evidence of criminal behavior is made public.
Republicans in 1974 held firm until the "smoking gun" tape came out, then folded.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)My understanding is that the courts are reluctant to issue orders on the subject, viewing it as fundamentally political.
Of course, if we get that smoking gun, that changes things. But the frank truth is that we don't have it yet.
Buffalo Soldier
(78 posts)I think history has proven...every time Democrats go big...they win!!!
brooklynite
(94,358 posts)We campaigned on jobs and health care and education costs. We DIDN'T campaign on Trump and Russia and Impeachment.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And without the Senate, he won't be removed, so really, that renders the impeachment process worthless.
I disagree with anyone wanting that scenario going into 2020.
And I have contacted my Democratic Senators and Congressman and told them this.
DFW
(54,302 posts)As much as we would love to attach the stigma of an impeachment to Trump, he would use his inevitable exoneration from the McConnell Senate to crow from the highest mountain, "See? I was wrongly the object of unjust Democratic persecution!" And it would fire up his base to vote to every last bit of the 110% of the vote their electronic vote-counting machines are programmed to give them.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... mattered to those people!?
Red Don will NEVER be as popular to democrats as Clinton was to republicans so forget about post impeachment bumps.
DFW
(54,302 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... good reason to stop the impeachment process now.
Nor is a post impeachment bump seeing most people aren't going to vote for Red Don anyway.
The rationale ... FOR ... impeachment is to end the stonewalling and bold faced lying to congress.
We'll have nearly 2 years of that if there is no impeachment process now.
DFW
(54,302 posts)Impeachment is for offenses that are perceived to have a chance of conviction. A prosecutor that brings charges that have zero chances of a conviction is wasting the public's time and money.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)There's nothing in the last 2 years that says the KGOP are rooted in reality.
If they don't have a narrative that fits them they straight up make one up !!!
Hell, he's "crowing" now by saying he's fully exhonorated ... that's false.
Red Don's crowing is not a good reason to stop impeachment process
DFW
(54,302 posts)Close Senate races also hinge on turnout and perception during the next 18 months. We'd all like to see him tossed in the nearest dungeon in chains for the rest of his days. No one disputes that. However, there are other considerations to be taken into account. We shouldn't run the danger of not regaining the Senate due to a Trump sympathy vote.
The Republicans had their feel-good moment when they impeached Clinton, too. They boosted his image for life and probably added few ten million to his net worth in heightened speaking fees and book sales in the process. When former president Trump tries to book his first speaking engagement, assuming he is still half-way coherent by then (not a given), I want it to be one where six people turn up and the rest of the tour is subsequently canceled.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... and that's what it would take for a Red Don 'bump'.
He didn't get one after Barr's Summary, he aint getting one now.
I don't know where the Clinton impeachment comparisons came from but they're not rooted in facts and don't releate to now.
Look up Clinton's approval post impeachment; a good portion of Clinton's bump came from republicans and indies ... not just democrats.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)bearsfootball516
(6,373 posts)Posters on DU can post "IMPEACH NOW!!" every day here until election day 2020, but it's still not gonna happen.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... laws there's no reason not to impeach him.
bearsfootball516
(6,373 posts)uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... that sentiment will be the example to the rest that "no impeachment" is a losing argument for being president.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)How do you think a vote on impeachment would impact his narrow window? Manchin has a much bigger window, but his constituents might well tell him to vote against impeachment too. It's not like we could primary him seriously and expect anybody with a D after their name to win that seat.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... of impeachment proceedings.
In regards to other races demcorats can start the impeachment proceedings to get KGOP to stop stonewalling and lying to congress then run silent like they are now.
At what point is impeachment "worth it"?!
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)Until then, there's a straight line between impeachment and a Trump victory lap breaking Twitter.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Is that clearer?
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... Red Don.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)that witch hunt", irregardless!!! LOL
We will just agree to disagree - I do not think the formal Judiciary Committee's Impeachment investigation will be worthless at all, for the reasons I and others have previously stated.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)On the bright side, I don't need to worry about Cruz, Cornyn, and Brady pushing for impeachment.
Poiuyt
(18,117 posts)The country can't get any more divided than it is now.
DFW
(54,302 posts)It's giving Trump ammunition for next year that we don't want to do. McConnell and Miller are surely rubbing their hands in anticipation of the propaganda treasure trove when the Senate's "innocent of all charges" verdict is rendered in the middle of an election campaign. Assuming that the average American voter has Rachel Maddow's sophistication is risky business indeed.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... is to stop the stone walling and lying to congress.
Without impeachment republicans are going to do both of the aforementioned without anything to stop them.
This is about our national security, what good is an election that's going to be infested with Russians helping Red Don ... again!?!?
Pachamama
(16,884 posts)Correct - he already is claiming that he has been exonerated and is stonewalling....
Impeachment will show the public what is to be found on the illegal activities and crime of Trump. If he is impeached and the info is public and then he is not removed, the public will be so outraged with Republican Senate members that they will vote them out of office in 2020 and also Trump.
If we don't impeach, I actually think that many Democrats and would be voters will sit out the election....
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... have some discipline and run quite about the process from seated pols to prez candidates and not feed the M$M trolls.
Maybe that's what Pelosi is more concerned about ... but to think the Russians are going to sit this one out because they got caught last time isn't rational.
They'll be helping Red Don again, and there's nothing to stop them seeing Benedict Donald is def-funding the initiatives to have clean elections.
Pachamama
(16,884 posts)And they are laughing at us....literally....
I am in Europe right now and even had a Russian telling me that it was funny to them to see how easy it has been...
I am in Mallorca Spain right now where I sail. Quite literally had a Russian tell me this as he took utter pleasure knowing I am an American. My companion who is German had to nearly hold me back from saying something about Russia that might end up having one of this Russian's friends do something to me. Mallorca is crawling with Russian Oligarchs and their friends and Russian Mafia....
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... going to let their whore, Benedict Donald, go at it alone in 2020.
mnhtnbb
(31,374 posts)There certainly are numerous compelling reasons.
I don't buy the argument that we shouldn't do it because of a forgone conclusion in the Senate. I think that exposing 45 and the Republicans who have supported his impeachable actions provide Dems the ammunition needed to take back the Senate.
I believe that Dems need to beat the drums on a daily basis that 45 and his Republican enablers are violating the Constitution-- and the oath of office they took to support it--in so many ways, that impeachment is necessary.
I plan to contact my Dem Representative and tell him so.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... just straight out lying about the downside now.
Red Don will never ever be as popular with democrats as Clinton was with republicans in the late 90s
The process mitigates the KGOP stonewalling and we can impeach without convicting or moving for removal so it doesn't even get to the senate unless Moscow Mitch brings it up himself.
The KGOP lies or stonewalls during impeachment process they go to jail.
DFW
(54,302 posts)They will go not to jail, but to Mar-a-Lago for a free week of luxury entertainment.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)DLevine
(1,788 posts)Air Trump's dirty laundry for all the world to see. What ever happened to defending the Constitution, following the law, doing the right thing? Let's do it.
Mike Nelson
(9,944 posts)
the goal, for me, is not impeachment. Clinton was impeached, Nixon was not impeached. I've asked people who was impeached and they say, "Nixon."
so, for me, the goal is removal from office. When that can be done, do it. I'm not interested in giving Trump a "win" he can use to try and get reelected.
--- that leads to another goal: let's win. I don't want a McConnell appointee replacing RBG on the SC and will not be content to say, "At least, we did those articles of impeachment."
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... and we should stop expecting reality based thinking from him.
Hell, he's going around the country right now saying he's exonerated and he's not.
Clinton post impeachment doesn't factually apply to Red Don, Red Don will never be as popular with democrats as Clinton was with republicans.
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)If it didnt fail, there would be no conviction. Impeachment is not a political reality.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... a sane person who will spout reality win or lose.
Red Don's response to impeachment, fail or succeed, is not a sound reason to not impeach
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)Impeachment would have a high probability of leaving egg on the Democratic partys face. Even if we succeeded, our failure to convict would supersede a successful impeachment. Either way, there is a net loss to us.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... stonewalling that is going to be present now.
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)Impeachment is political. However, if you have one shot, you dont want to blow it. Impeachment without trying for conviction would be a pointless act, imo, and Trump would use it to his advantage. We need all the legitimacy in the process that we can get.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... and then run silent.
What is the breaking point?! At what point is enough is enough ?!
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)We really need to tread carefully with impeachment. It could backfire horribly and give Trump the 2020 election.
Imo, hes done more than enough to be impeached. However, we need to prove it, and get some Republicans in the Senate on our side. Otherwise, it will be disastrous and make future impeachment attempts impossible.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)It also plays into Trumps Witch-hunt mantra. We cant afford to investigate Trump and find nothing in the investigation. It would be a major talking point he could use in 2020.
watoos
(7,142 posts)because of the Mueller report. The only way we see the full Mueller report before the election is to start impeachment proceedings. It's not really a choice for Democrats in the House. There is enough evidence, enough reason now to impeach Trump. Democrats are obliged to impeach Trump per the Constitution. Speaker Pelosi is making a political calculation that impeachment will hurt our chances in the 2020 election, I disagree. There will never be enough votes in the Senate to convict Trump, even after the 2020 elections. People who are saying to wait for bipartisanship before impeaching trump are really saying to never impeach Trump. Impeachment will allow Democrats to see the Mueller report before the election which will show more reasons why Trump should be impeached.
If people want to just look at impeachment politically, let's do it.
Not impeaching Trump will allow him to say that the Mueller report exonerated him, to say that Democrats overstepped, to say that Democrats were on a witch hunt, to say that it is Democrats who need to be investigated.
Impeaching Trump will rile up his 34% base, so fucking what? That 34% was always going to vote for Trump.
Not impeaching Trump will cause Democrats to stay home and not vote because once again Democrats have shown that they are weak.
Desperate times calls for desperate measures. Writing nice letters and asking politely will not convince monsters to stop.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)... ever be as popular with dems as Clinton was with republicans in the late 90s so those who compare Red Don with Clinton isn't being factual.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)Then, I don't know where Democrats can find "bi-partisanship"?
EveHammond13
(2,855 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If we look at impeachment as the investigatory/prosecutorial aspect of the situation, it is up to the prosecutor, on this case the House Democrats, to lay out the case for the jury. Unfortunately for the country, the jury is the GOP controlled Senate. But if enough criminal behavior is revealed, the electorate has the opportunity to be aware of the crimes.
And even if Trump is acquitted by the Senate, he could lose in 2020.
KPN
(15,637 posts)Under Pelosis the bipartisan condition, even if we win the Senate in 2020, we would not impeach for lack of bipartisan support should tRump prevail (heaven forbid) in 2020.