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Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:37 AM

 

Here's how tRump wins a second term

Our party fights with itself over whether we are "socialist" enough or not and also engage in a civil war over whether or not to impeach.

How do we not do this?

31 replies, 1653 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Here's how tRump wins a second term (Original post)
SHRED Apr 2019 OP
Eliot Rosewater Apr 2019 #1
Funtatlaguy Apr 2019 #2
Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #12
kennetha Apr 2019 #3
Eliot Rosewater Apr 2019 #4
SHRED Apr 2019 #7
Eliot Rosewater Apr 2019 #29
kennetha Apr 2019 #11
stopdiggin Apr 2019 #22
JustFiveMoreMinutes Apr 2019 #26
Celerity Apr 2019 #28
PeeJ52 Apr 2019 #5
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #6
Boomerproud Apr 2019 #9
Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #14
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #16
Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #20
Funtatlaguy Apr 2019 #17
The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2019 #18
Funtatlaguy Apr 2019 #24
lagomorph777 Apr 2019 #8
cynatnite Apr 2019 #10
Strelnikov_ Apr 2019 #13
Demsrule86 Apr 2019 #15
Funtatlaguy Apr 2019 #25
Strelnikov_ Apr 2019 #30
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2019 #19
SHRED Apr 2019 #21
Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2019 #23
Andy823 Apr 2019 #27
Lucid Dreamer Apr 2019 #31

Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:40 AM

1. I made the observation that the dems are DAMNED IF THEY DO and if they dont impeach

somehow this whole thing is now THEIR or OUR fault

Fuck, I dont know why I bother anymore.

I want impeachment also but I am NOT going to denigrate my party if they dont for OBVIOUS reasons.

As to the socialist issue, much more going on there than most realize. Oh if it were JUST a matter of differing opinions on how far to go as to democratic socialist policy or whatever, it is NOT about that AT ALL!

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:40 AM

2. The debates will winnow the field.

The socialist thing will be used anyway on our eventual nominee.
The public is getting less and less scared of that word.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:14 AM

12. A candiate who calls himself a socialist will be in much worse shape than other Democratic

candidates. This is why Sanders should not be our nominee...Biden can win PA, WI, MI and possibly OH-we would not even need Ohio if we won the first three. This is our path to electoral college victory.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:40 AM

3. don't elect a socialist and don't shy away from impeachment.

We are democrats, we are not socialist. and we stand for the rule of law.
Pretty basic stuff.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:42 AM

4. There are no socialists running in either party.

I cant STAND Bernie Sanders for reasons I cant go into but he is not a socialist, his speeches are Democratic Socialism, not socialism.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:47 AM

7. He should have never brought that word in

 

Big mistake.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #7)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 12:55 PM

29. Considering the audience, yes

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:09 AM

11. Democratic socialism is still socialism. We've been over this ad infinitum

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Response to kennetha (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:35 AM

22. Nope

Not the way the dictionary defines it.
Socialism: "means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

Difference between socialism and democratic socialism: "democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism."

That's a pretty big distinction, in the eyes Americans (and of most of the world)

using quotes here for common definitions quickly found on line

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Response to kennetha (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:44 AM

26. Damn that Social Security, just sayin'. n/t

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #4)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 12:08 PM

28. he is a bog standard social democrat, but yes absolutely he falsely self-labels

as a democratic socialist. The only difference between a democratic socialist and most other forms of socialism is that a democratic socialist wants to use the ballot box to achieve state control of the means of production and to dispense with capitalism.

No currently elected members of Congress or state governors are actual real socialists. None want to do away with capitalism or have the state assume the means of production, which is at the core of democratic socialism (and obvious socialism in its other forms).

All that said, Bernie WAS at one time an actual real socialist, pretty hard core, but he gave that up in the 1980's. Also, even though AOC and others are members of the DSA, they are not socialists, democratic or otherwise.

The DSA however, most definitely has thousands of real actual hardcore socialists, and far more extreme (Maoists, anarcho syndicalists, Trotskyites, even revisionist Leninist and Stalinist communists) members in their organisation. I wish ALL our caucus members would kick them to the curb, as they are extremely problematic. AOC is just a basic standard social democrat, ie. for robust but highly regulated capitalism, and an expansive social welfare state. The Nordic Model is the best example of social democratic societies/governments.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:47 AM

5. How are young people getting health insurance in this gig economy?

 

How are they going to afford it when they are 50 and it no longer costs $69 a month?

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:47 AM

6. In my humble opinion, by:

(1) dropping the term "socialist" from our vocabulary altogether. This is not a socialist country. Neither are the Scandinavian countries some like to hold up as examples - they are capitalist democracies with strong social safety nets which have been approved by their people and for which their people are willing to be taxed. The word "socialism" is too infected with grossly incorrect notions of collective farms and gulags and other detritus of the Soviet Union, which far too many people believe. Drop it and call the Democratic economic vision something else.

(2) Hold investigative hearings as was done in Watergate using the Mueller report as a road map, as Mueller clearly intended. Make it clear that the goal is not to impeach per se, but to investigate. The Watergate hearings exposed Nixon's perfidy and his approval ratings dropped to about 25%. Impeachment and conviction can't happen unless the politicians see that enough voters want it to happen, and the voters won't want it to happen unless they see the evidence for themselves. The Mueller report by itself won't be enough.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:00 AM

9. Your humble opinion happens to be pragmatic

and a winning strategy. Well done.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:16 AM

14. I agree completely, the 'pin' lady who's name escapes me says we can get the Mueller report in a

pre-impeachment hearing.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:24 AM

16. That's Jill Wine-Banks, former Watergate prosecutor.

She knows whereof she speaks.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #16)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:31 AM

20. Thanks...senior moment sigh.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:24 AM

17. Bernie has been a Dem Socialist for a long time.

Doubt he will drop that title now.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:25 AM

18. Which means he will have to keep explaining why he's not a "communist,"

which will distract from his fundamental message.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #18)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:37 AM

24. I think he handled this ok in 2016 when asked.

Admittedly, it took him a while to get a good concise answer to the question of “what is a Democratic Socialist “.
You would think, and hope, that he and his advisers have worked on that and are ready for that question and the “communist” one also now.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 10:51 AM

8. We should stifle all debate over policy.

Not. It's legitimate to debate policy and find a path to a better country and a stronger electoral position.

As for impeachment, that's not a binary choice. Investigate the shit out of all the corruption in Trumpworld. If that builds enough momentum for impeachment, great. If it builds momentum for 2020, wonderful. And if it flops, learn the lesson and focus on policy for the campaign.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:06 AM

10. His chances are likely stronger if he campaigns on the economy. n/t

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:16 AM

13. Trump is done winning


It's all downhill from here for Red Don.

The Dem pol chieftains don't want to impeach cause they know Red Don is a slam dunk for the Dems in '20.

As I have said before, and will say again, the GOP wants the Dems to do their dirty work. They want Red Don to go away more than we do. The problem is, their base<>primaries.

I agree with VO above. Start hearings, multiple. Drag em out till the election. With all the dirt that will have to be covered by the 'liberal' media, the GOP will be forced to act to remove Red Don, or 2020 will be a landslide against them,

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:19 AM

15. That is the strategy I think will work too...while imeachment might make us feel good, it serves no

useful purpose this close to an election and with no chance of conviction yet...it is remotely possible that Pubs will force Trump out if the evidence lowers Trumps polls sufficiently but that can be accomplished with hearings.

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:40 AM

25. Interesting. I would certainly rather us face Trump than

Someone like Romney or Kasich or even Pence.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #25)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 02:59 PM

30. or worse . . Haley


My feeling for a while now is that they dump Trump after the primaries (and base) are behind the Congressional and Senate candidates, probably mid-summer '20.

They then pull out Haley, place all the GOP ill's on Trump, and all the blame for his removal on the Dem's (yea, I know, doublethink, but if this ain't Orwell, it's a Phillip K. Dick novel).

Enough R leaning women come home to cause us problems.

A certainty, no. A possibility, yes. Therefore, Dem leadership needs to prepare for this IMHO. One way is to 'spread the court'. That is, concentrate on highlighting the corruption of the GOP in general, not just Trump.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:28 AM

19. One way would be to tone the hyperbole and over-quick reactions I have seen in many posts


... many posts on DU, not just yours.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:33 AM

21. The two things I mentioned are hyperbole now?

 

They aren't going on?

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Response to SHRED (Reply #21)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:35 AM

23. Sorry, I should have been clearer. Not the OPost. And I rec'd your latest post on TV-educated


https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212028177

I was thinking of other posts than that and this OP.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Fri Apr 19, 2019, 11:47 AM

27. How do we not do this?

Well for one thing we could stop buying into the "doom and gloom" posts, and stop letting low count new trolls get away with dividing the boards, which the are doing a pretty good job of lately. When the same person over and over and over again post negative things, condemns Pelosi and other leaders, we are playing into their agenda. MIRT is good, but I remember 2016 and the "scorched earth" tactics that showed up here on DU, and we don't need that all over again.

The sad part is that people like to get involved in the "negative" posts, while posts that actually are worth discussing, get pushed off the page.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Apr 20, 2019, 12:35 AM

31. Shrewd observation.

SHRED>Our party fights with itself over whether we are "socialist" enough or not and also engage in a civil war over whether or not to impeach.

How do we not do this?


... and there are more landmines. I've got some observations and suggestion along this line. I'll try to edit that essay for this weekend.


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