Nixon wasn't impeached, although he would have been because the public came to support it over time.

[boston bean]

They held HEARINGS/OPEN TESTIMONY/INVESTIGATED.

Why the hell can't we follow the same play book here?

[marylandblue]

1. We are living in unprecedented times. Trump isn't Nixon, this isn't 1974.

Whatever we do, we need to stop looking at recent American history as if it were a roadmap to our destination. There's just nothing to guide us, even the basic assumptions of the Constitution have failed. There is nothing to guide us, so are arguments rooted in the past are useless.

[boston bean]

2. We can learn from history. We have a criminal in the White House.

Difference is the Republicans won't lift a fucking finger to steer the ship.

So, we need to get the public on board and not offer these fucking traitors a way out, like controlling a trial to declare trump innocent before 2020.

Damn, it's like people can't see one step ahead.

[Ponietz]

3. The republic isn't worth saving if illiberals declare Addleall innocent

All we can do is the right thing. I don’t care what people call it.

One positive to the ‘impeachment’ process is that State charges from NY or elsewhere become much more likely.

Another is that McConnell’s role in the plot moves front and center. I’d love to see televised hearings on his obstructionism—President Obama and Democratic leaders in the Senate would testify.

Make no mistake, these criminal ratfuckers are on the hot seat. It’s time to grill them.

[boston bean]

4. I guess you and I have a completely different view of the last few years.

They are not on any hot seat.

[Ponietz]

9. The US could Balkanize if Addleall is declared innocent

I don’t think ‘impeachment’ will tear the country further apart from where it already is—
declaring Addleall innocent will, though.

[boston bean]

11. I am not talking about tearing the country apart.

I am talking about giving the orange fuck a gift for 2020.

Damn it's like people don't see the realities of the media, republicans and what they are capable of.

[Ponietz]

12. I hear you, bean

but, to me, the gift would be to let the Mueller report go stale. The wind has shifted in the media. We know what they are capable of—that’s why impeachment is imperative.

[boston bean]

16. We can cripple him with investigations and open testimony for 2 years.

Getting him out of office and his sycophants out of office is what is best for this country.

Giving them quarter to control narratives and a trial to declare his innocence would be a level of stupid I have ever seen.

[Ponietz]

17. 'Stupid' didn't help you, here

they already have unlimited quarter to control narratives and Addleall will declare innocence either way.

[boston bean]

18. No they do not have unlimited quarter. I am not saying that so please stop concluding I am.

We will have the best control of the narrative if we do not start impeachment proceedings at this time.

[marylandblue]

5. Yes of course we can learn from history! But which history?

I'm learning from 19th Century Latin American history, modern European history and Ancient Roman History. All of which warn that our dangers are much bigger than you realize and that a direct assault on an authoritarian populist like Trump probably won't work.

Read "How Democracies Die" and What is Populism?" Then we'll talk.

[boston bean]

6. I see dangers. I see republicans controlling a trial to convict the president where they declare

him completely innocent in the summer of 2020.

[marylandblue]

7. Yeah, I see them doing that too. Is that all you see?

[boston bean]

8. Yeah, I see giving them a leg up in 2020 where they control the narrative.

We don't need that. We should not give that to them.

[marylandblue]

13. I agree, so I am ambivalent tending towards no on impeachment.

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2019, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

The the way to fight authoritarian populists is to avoid the obvious, simple and wrong solution of making elections about them. The founding fathers did not know this, so they created an unwieldy, nearly useless impeachment process.

[boston bean]

19. Interesting insight. thank you!

[delisen]

20. All roads in current crisis lead from Russia. nt

Republicans in congress know this-

Paul Ryan to Republican caucus in 2017: “ There's two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump,” ...

Someone in the caucus let that information go public. The Republican Party has some serious hidden divisions. They are not a monolith.


I agree we need to see our situation as different from 1974. It can teach us some things but far from everything.

[Buffalo Soldier]

10. Nixon played within the rules.

Nixon fought against impeachment using the law and it was politics that eventually took him.

Trump uses politics as his main defense and dangles pardons so others can break the law...

[TwilightZone]

14. It's not a binary argument, as many want to make it.

I've seen umpteen posts declaring that it's a binary argument: impeach Trump or let him slide.

Of course, in the real world, there are ongoing investigations in and out of Congress, Congress continues to subpoena documents and witnesses, and they clearly intend to keep the pressure on.

Good luck convincing anyone of that, however. People are convinced that if we don't impeach Trump, we condone everything he's done. It's complete nonsense.

[boston bean]

15. It's like people forget what Republicans did to Hillary. Let's do the same fucking thing to Trump.

We don't need to give them any talking points or avenues to declare innocence via a trial Mitch McConnell controls.

We can drip the shit out and purge the orange fuck and hopefully many of his sycophants if we play this right. And that is, btw, what is best for this country.

Impeaching without conviction and allowing them to declare innocence would be bad for this country.