By the way, Lee was a shitty general.

[Voltaire2]

He threw his soldiers away for nothing at Gettysburg. That battle is a case history in colossal military blunders- a lesson in how not to be an awful general.

[ADX]

1. Don't you mean a lesson in how TO be an awful general?

[KG]

2. I lulz'd

again

[Wounded Bear]

3. Yeah, most of Lee's "brilliant strategic successes" were done out of desperation...

He actually benefitted highly from the politicization of the Union armies. Many of the Union commanders owed their commissions to political patronage, especially in Virginia, where they fought in the shadow of the Capitol dome. They might have been West Pointers, but in the early years especially, the Union army wasn't much of a 'meritocracy.'

Once Grant took over, the outcome was pretty much decided, as long as the Union didn't lose their will. In 1864, when McClellan ran on a peace platform, the Army of the Potomac voted overwhelmingly for Lincoln.

[SWBTATTReg]

4. Gettysburg was Lee's undoing. He should have listened to Longstreet (one of his ...

generals) and retreated once initial engagements started breaking out to a better spot (more defensive) and let the Union troops attack instead, with Lee's army entrenched in a better, more defensive spot.

He didn't, and it cost him and the South dearly. This is where Lee's vanity got the better part of him (and his army) and cost them dearly.

Compared to a lot of generals who were nominated either by their states' governors ((both North and South), mostly political nominees, having little expertise or true ability), Lee was a good general (initially), along with Longstreet, Grant, Buford, etc. These people had actually served in other wars thus actually had experience in leading the troops.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Longstreet was a better general, saw the error of his ways, and joined the good guys after the war.

[Blue_true]

27. Yeah.

He is the only conferderate general or leader that should now be honored. He became a regional sheriff after the war and fought to protect freed Blacks from the terror of nightriders. He is the only conferderate that deserves a statue.

[Dorian Gray]

60. I had no idea

this makes me want to learn more about him now. Fascinating historical info. Thanks.

[Blue_true]

63. What he stood for after the war is why there are not statues of him

in the south. He was a very capable commander who was tripped up by Lee. But what he stood for after the war got him sent to confederate hell. George Henry Thomas went to the same place for being arguably the most effective Union General and for his protection of freed slaves during early reconstruction of the south (he transferred to a post in San Francisco, where he died in his fifties).

[Blue_true]

25. The best General in that war by far and one of history's most brilliant

military minds was General George Henry Thomas (Thomas Circle in Washington DC is named after him and his statue is there). He produced victories in almost all the key Union victories and prevented the Union army from being overrun several times. His army held Grant's key flank at Vicksburg and his army flanked Sherman as Sherman took Atlanta - interestingly, after Sherman took Atlanta and started his famous match to the sea against little resistance, General Thomas as ordered to catch a much larger confederate army led by General Hood (who Fort Hood is named after). When Thomases Army finally caught up with the traitors, the traitors had entrenched themselves in the high ground around Nashville. Instead of foolishly attacking, Thomas drew up new battle plans and trained his men to those plans, his men included one or two Black regiments. When Thomas had his men ready, he had one of the Black regiments attack from a secure low ground, Thomas correctly guessing that the traitors would attack the Black regiment. The Black regiment fought well, driving back the traitors into Calvary that Thomas had encircle them and dismount. The battle was one of only maybe two instances in history where one army virtually obliterated another army, gaining Thomas the name "The Hammer of Nashville", that confederate defeat at Nashville was a key factor that led to Lee surrendering at the courthouse in Appomattox Virginia.

Thomas defeated every confederate general, including Stonewall Jackson, Braxton Bragg (Fort Bragg is named after him, Hood and Longstreet). Thomas' Army did not lose a single battle in the war.

[underpants]

26. Very interesting. Thanks.

As I posted somewhere else my stepfather is a big civil war buff but that industry is mostly centered on retaking the CSA side. I don't know that I've ever seen much about Thomas.

[Blue_true]

29. Truly great man. He was the first Union General to bring Black units into his army.

He was also a Virginian and protege of Lee, but Thomas turned down entreaties from the traitors to fight for the Union, and he fought with great honor. There should be a monument and museum for the man on the National Mall, more that Lincoln and Grant, he probably saved the Union by his critical battle victories. If he had gone against the wishes of his wife (a northerner who he married after priviledged southern high society women had turned his down as not being worthy) and joined the traitors, I shudder to think of where the country would be today.

[gladium et scutum]

72. Yes, General Thomas was a truly great man.

But he was not the first Union General to bring black units into his army. The Army of the Cumberland did not receive USCT units until late Autumn around Nashville in 1864. The 54th MA, joined MG David Hunter's X Corp at Beaufort SC in June 1863. The Army of the Potomac's 4th division, IX Corp were all USCTs. That division was assigned to the Corp in April 1864.

[Itchinjim]

5. Had Stonewall Jackson not been killed,

There might have been a very different outcome of the Civil War. And not in the Union's favor.

[FakeNoose]

11. You could be right about that

In my post below (#7) I recommend the movie "Gettysburg" which is a very cool and riveting movie about the 4 days of the battle. One of the things I love about that movie is that even though we know the final outcome, both sides are shown with dignity and respect. Really until the middle of the 3rd day, it could have gone either way. There was heroism on both sides, and a few blunders too. Stonewall Jackson was a major loss for the South.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Highly doubtful

the only realistic hope the Confederacy had of winning was to encircle and cut off Washington, capture Lincoln and the cabinet, and force a negotiated peace. Failing that, the outcome was foreordained (see 'Scott's Anaconda').

[Blue_true]

32. General George Henry Thomas defeated Stobewall every time they met.

If General Thomas had not been discriminated against because he was a southerner and made commander of all Union forces early in the war, the war likely would have been a short war in the Union's favor. Thomas was the only true battle tested General in the war, having fought in the Seminole Indian campaigns in Florida and in the Mexican-American War against Santa Ana's army. Thomas was responsible for largely destroying the Mexican army with artilery fire (he commanded those units), turning the battle in the American forces favor.

[Docreed2003]

38. In what battle did he defeat Stonewall Jackson?

I'm not arguing Thomas' greatness, the man was a brilliant tactician and chose his country over serving his state of birth, but where did he and Jackson meet in battle?

Thomas' career in the war was almost exclusively in the western theater.

Edit to add: First Bull Run was all I could find and he did not "defeat" Jackson in that battle.

[Blue_true]

50. Thomas was credited with defeating Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley early in the war.

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2019, 08:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Although most accounts say that Jackson only lost at Kernstown Va. Most of the early fighting took place in the Shenandoah Valley due to it's significance to the confederacy as a food source and to the Union as a troop conduit region. The Shenandoah Valley had several battles fought there and late in the war General Sheridan tore the confederacy apart there.

The reference that I used earlier stated that Thomas had beaten Jackson more than once when they faced off, but some admiring Jackson say that he lost only once. Thomas never lost a battle, I will look up details of Thomas' battles and update.

Update: the only battle where they likely fought against each other was Kernsville, Va early in the war. Thomas was a subordinate to another general. Stonewall Jackson stayed in the eastern war front while Thomas and Phillip Sheridan went to the west war front with Sherman and Grant. Sheridan would return to the Shenandoah with Grant while Thomas stayed in the west and deep south with Sherman, by then Stonewall had died.

[Docreed2003]

61. I'm pretty familiar with both

I wasn't aware that Thomas was at Kernsville. I know that his Calvary engaged with Jackson's at First Bull Run, but that isn't considered a defeat.

Now, to your larger point, Thomas took his first command in the western front and that's where his exploits are best known. The man, in some cases, single handily crafted plans and made decisions in the heat of battle that decided the war in the Western Front. His steadfastness in his beliefs, even when he disagreed with Grant and directly disobeyed him at times, combined with his unwillingness to promote himself after the war are reasons why many have never heard the name of George Henry Thomas. Thomas' tactical brilliance at places like Chickamauga, Chattanooga, and the Nashville Campaign resulting in, essentially, the defeat of the Army of Tennessee should be regarded better by history.

[Blue_true]

64. At Kernstown he was likely subordinate to General James Shields, who

took credit for defeating Jackson. Stobewall Jackson lost some skirmishes (they were not considered full battles), he lost several before being defeated at Kernstown, so Thomas may have beaten him in some of those skirmishes. Thomas is somewhat of a lost figure in that war because he destroyed his own personal papers and was hated in the south and ignored in the north as people like Grant and Sherman was lionized. There are records of his exploits, but they are in other officers' personal recountings, including a Medal of Honor reciprocate from that war that did a biography on Thomas. The more I learn about the man, the more I feel that he deserves sonething at least on the scale of Grant's Tomb, something big on the National Mall.

[Docreed2003]

66. Agreed...

And there would have been no Grant as we know him without Thomas.

[Blue_true]

67. Are you a Civil War buff?

Many years ago I subscribed to a monthly magazine that analyzed all battles small and large. That is when I first read about George Henry Thomas, but frankly I did not appreciate the magnitude of his contribution, focusing instead on the fact that he was a southern officer who fought for the north and that he held one of Grant's flanks in the western campaigns.

[Docreed2003]

68. Yeah, since I was a kid

Growing up in the south, it's hard not to be inundated with the history. My grandfathers grandfather was a Methodist minister and he helped runaway slaves across the TN border to KY. A detachment of Hood's army actually encamped on the farm I grew up on and finding relics was easier than finding arrowheads and those were everywhere. I became interested in the history because I love military history and there was plenty around me growing up in the Nashville area.

In college, I travelled to most of the major battlefields in Tennessee. I still have a book that takes the battlefield maps and overlays them on modern roadmaps. That came in handy because the tour guides of Chickamauga and Shiloh, in particular although Gettysburg does this too, presents the battle events out of order out of necessity in the way they preserved the battlefields.

All that to say, that's how I learned about Thomas. He really is a fascinating study from that war and deserves to be better remembered.

[SomethingNew]

51. Grant also fought in the Mexican-American war.

[safeinOhio]

6. Grant and Sherman were the

Great generals of the war. Results matter.

[Blue_true]

35. General George Henry Thomas was by far the best General in that war.

He flanked Grant's and Sherman's armies and made them look more competent than they were. Actually, Grant and Sherman screwed up a key battle in the Deep South early in the war and if General Thomas had not saved them, the rebels would have destroyed both their armies.

[gladium et scutum]

71. Believe you are refering to the Battle of Shiloh

Thomas was a division commander in the Army of the Ohio commanded by Don Carlos Buell. Buell's forces crossed the Tennessee River to reinforced Grants on the second day at Shiloh. With these reinforcements Grant pushed the Confederates back. Thomas's division was the last to cross the river. By the time Thomas got his troops across, the fighting had already ended. I believe your claim of Thomas saving Grant & Sherman at Shiloh is a bit exaggerated. Thomas's Division didn't fire a shot at Shiloh.

[FakeNoose]

7. Recommended for anyone who wants to learn about the Battle of Gettysburg

The movie "Gettysburg" that was made in 1993 and stars Martin Sheen, Tom Berenger, Stephen Lang, Jeff Daniels, Sam Elliott, etc. - the entire cast is awesome. It covers the 4 days of the battle of Gettysburg and makes it immersive, educational and yet interesting. The movie is based on Michael Shaara's book "The Killer Angels" which is also quite good.

Gettysburg was the turning point of the Civil War according to most historians. It's something all Americans should be taught, but few bother to learn the details. You can probably find this movie at your local library.

[Blue_true]

36. Gettysburg was the key battle of the war and turned the tide against

the confederacy.

[Alpeduez21]

53. Vicksburg

The siege of Vicksburg won the day the same day Gettysburg was lost. Lee lost face at Gettysburg. The south lost the Mississippi River at Vicksburg. Troop movement for the Union vastly improved after the defeat of Vicksburg.

[Blue_true]

56. You may be right.

Civil War history is so polluted with homerism that it's tough to say which major battle was key. But your logic is sound, with Vicksburg the Union completed land and water control of a key confederacy supply region.
It could maybe be argued that the war turned after Vicksburg for another reason, Lincoln replaced Meade as the leader of Union forces after Meade failed to pursue a retreating Lee and do more damage to Lee's forces. Grant took command and brought Phillip Sheridan with him, leaving Sherman and Thomas in the west and south. Sheridan was key in collapsing rebel resistance in the Shenandoah and cutting down on Lee's operational capabilities. Of course history recorded what happened out west, but some argue that Thomas, not Sherman was the real hero there since his army took the point in the assault that drove the rebel army back into Atlanta, before Thomas' forces sacked that rebel stronghold (though official records gave credit for that to a General that operated under Thomas' command).

[Alpeduez21]

62. Grant's

appointment was crucial to Union victory("I like this man, he fights"-Lincoln). Freaking bulldog tenacity. Knew he had the manpower and weaponry to apply pressure and just never let up. The confederacy was worn down. He was much better at seeing the bigger picture than Lee that's for sure.


Not gonna lie. I'm not as familiar with Thomas as your enthusiasm shows I should be. Definitely will be reading up on him.

[Blue_true]

65. Grant had more men and better resources when he took over the Army of the Potomac.

He literally threw men at Lee, leading to horrific death counts (that is why some referred to him as a butcher). Thomas and Sheridan were better tacticians and more effective in battle, although as I read more about him Thomas appears to be the better of the two at drawing up and executing battle plans.

[Blue_true]

57. Gettysburg was not lost by either side, although Lee retreated on bad information.

I read that it was more of a stalemate, with heavy losses on both sides. The Union may have won if General Meade, with his still larger army, had pursued and fought Lee's deminished and retreating army.

[brush]

8. Yep, he was not a great general (Pickett's Charge and all that with 50% casualties)...

He was a great traitor though. Once the commandant of West Point, the US military academy where he once attended, took up arms against his own country.

Fuck trump for calling him a brilliant general, and fuck Lee who eventually was ass-kicked by General Grant.

Here's some info on Gettysburg and Pickett's charge that Lee ordered. The Battle of Gettysburg was the high point of the confederacy's advance against the Union, after the loss there is was all down hill for Lee and the confederacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickett%27s_Charge

[lame54]

10. I like generals that didn't lose civil wars

[Dirty Socialist]

12. I like generals

That don't betray their country

[Ron Obvious]

18. How about that traitor George Washington then?

History should always be seen and judged in context.

[Voltaire2]

19. The traitor Washington was fighting for

democracy, the traitor Lee was fighting for slavery. There is a significant difference in motivation, this is not a reductionist “history written by the victors” thing.

[Ron Obvious]

24. Washington was fighting for democracy?!

Christ, you're not that naive, are you?

[Blue_true]

37. I think it depends upon how "democracy" is defined.

For Whites, yes he fought against tyranny, for Blacks, he helped maintain tyranny.

[smirkymonkey]

13. But..but..but... Trump is a genius student of history and HE says that General Lee

was the best general ever! He also says that he is the best President ever, so it all must be true. He is so smart and he never lies, so you know we can trust everything he says.

[Dirty Socialist]

15. And heroin is the best drug ever

/sarc
"I cannot tell a lie. The Mexicans did it"

[MyOwnPeace]

41. Trump & Lee............

they have a kinship - they're both traitors!

[leftofcool]

69. That's what happens when you snort aderall

[kentuck]

16. One of the reasons we had statues of Lee and other Confederates..

We have to put ourselves in the environment after the war to understand.

It was an act of compromise by many in the North, as a way to try to heal and bring the country together. There was still a lot of anger and hatred leftover from the Great Civil War. Emotions were torn.

So, the defeated South were permitted to put up their statues of their heroes as a way to maybe help bring the country together. It was not because they were great generals.

Just my opinion.

[Voltaire2]

20. The vast majority of those statues are quite recent

additions to public spaces in the former confederacy. Many are from the 60s, as in the 1960s. They were a direct and confrontational response to the forced desegregation if the south.

[kentuck]

23. That is true.

[underpants]

31. Timelines

[underpants]

33. Mmmm I'm going to disagree here a bit

See my timelines post above

The unity thing may have been a part of it but the general opinion is that the UDC got funding from some fat cats and the monuments started going up as Jim Crow Law were implemented. The message was clear - YOU are still in OUR world.

[yardwork]

40. Not true. The confederate monuments were put up in the south in the early 20th century.

The rise of the KKK again, implementation of Jim Crow laws, and mythologizing about "the great cause" was a campaign of propaganda done 50 years after the end of the Civil War.

[misanthrope]

44. Not exactly

[Alpeduez21]

54. No

The statues were put up in the twenties to show blacks that white power was the dominant force and African Americans better toe the line.

[modrepub]

17. Gettysburg & Antietam

Two offensive campaigns that could have changed the war and Lee lost both of them. He might have been a good general but he was often too aggressive and couldn't afford or didn't realize his side couldn't afford a war of attrition. Johnston was a better general in that regard; his Atlanta strategy was sound and frustrating since he constantly fell back when Union forces threatened to flank his defenses.

As far as Lee goes, the Gettysburg campaign showcased some of Lee's shortcomings. First, he never seemed to have an overall strategy after defeating a Union army that was twice his size at Chancellorsville (he did loose Jackson). Longstreet was for discharging some soldiers from Lee's army and sending them to relieve Vicksburg. Lee and Davis over ruled him and suggested an invasion would force Union troops to abandon their siege to meet their invasion. If Lee had a set strategy, like taking Harrisburg and cutting the east-west rail lines (and starving Washington) he would have communicated it to Steuart who instead meandered around the Army of the Potomac and did not show up at one of the most important battles until the last day.

Keep in mind Lincoln removed Hooker and installed Meade one day before the battle started, which should have given Lee and advantage especially since Meade didn't have time to purge staff and generals who were more supportive of Hooker than himself. One of Meade's failings was expecting subordinates to be loyal to the cause and not their proceeding commanders (Gen Butterfield would criticize Meade at latter congressional hearings). There was a lot of intrigue and infighting after Chancellorsville with Hooker resigning thinking Lincoln wouldn't accept given the situation. When the officers came to Meade's tent with orders from Lincoln putting him in command Meade thought he was being arrested for criticizing Hooker. The officer told Meade he was ordered to take the position and he couldn't refuse.

Meade put his most experienced generals Reynolds and Hancock on the field early in the battle. Lee's most experienced general didn't get on the battlefield until late on the second day. Reynolds was killed during the first hours of battle, which was a great loss but Meade sent Hancock who arrived late on the first day, assessed the situation and encouraged Meade to bring up the rest of the army and engage. Meade pulled up the rest of his Corps and dug in on the high ground east of Gettysburg. Lee's army outnumbered Meade's on the first day but was hampered by lack of calvary units to know where his adversary was (initial engagement was with Pennsylvania volunteer units late in May and confederate units were surprised to see insignia on their opponent's hats that IDed them as units of the AoP). Lee didn't pull up Longstreet's division until late on the second day. So Meade moved more aggressively than Lee and grabbed the high ground and after absorbing attacks on his flanks correctly deduced Lee would test the center, which he did to disastrous results on the last day of the battle.

Lee and Davis' decision to push the army into Pennsylvania lead to a general Union victory at Gettysburg and the loss of Vicksburg as the country celebrated the anniversary of its founding on July 4th. This loss sealed the Confederacy's fate. No help from Europe would be offered.

[RHMerriman]

39. Good post ... Meade gets overlooked a lot in the discussions, but he was

Good post ... Meade gets overlooked a lot in the discussions, but he was definitely in the Top 5 of US army/theater-level commanders in 1861-65. I'd give him a tie for third with Thomas (after Grant and Sherman, obviously), and before Sheridan at number 5. 6-10 are tougher, given the vagaries of command responsibility at the army/theater equivalent earlier in the war and in secondary theater (compared to Virginia-Maryland and the Middle West/Mississippi Valley).

Thing worth remembering about Lee; he was an excellent army-level commander on the strategic defensive in Virginia, but he lost all three times he tried to lead a strategic offensive campaign anywhere outside of present day Virginia.

He lost to McClellan in Maryland in 1862 and to Meade in Pennsylvania in 1863, and lost to J.J Reynolds at Cheat Mountain in West Virginia in 1861...

[modrepub]

43. Meade's Command Experience

Meade was a Division and Corps commander before he was put in charge of the AoP (Army of the Potomac). Lee never went through that experience since he was offered to lead armies. Meade was not one to ask his soldiers to do something he wasn't willing to do himself; especially important after his experience at Fredericksburg. Like Lee, Meade was an engineer by trade (he sighted lighthouses before rejoining the army).

One advantage Meade's experience of moving up the command ranks gave him was that he wasn't opposed to visiting his corps and division commanders in the field to see what was going on; most army commanders stayed in their HQ and sent out orders and processed field reports. It was under those circumstances that Meade rode out to find Gen Sickles when he was informed that he had moved his position forward off of the Round Tops. Meade had a notorious temper (referred to as the old snapping turtle or the old goggly eyed snapping turtle because he wore glasses). When Meade found Sickles out in front of the position he had been assigned, he asked why the general had done so. Sickles meekly said that the terrain he had advanced to was slightly higher than the Round Top position. Meade quickly lost his temper and told Sickles that if he kept moving forward he'd find higher terrain right up to (South) Mountain. When Sickles offered to move his corps back Meade told him that he'd like that "but those men (Longstreet's Division) won't let you". Thus started the second day mauling on the Union's left flank. What is never recognized is that Meade's field visit led to shifting units that would wind up saving the Union's left flank from being dislodged.

There's another story about how Meade and his staff were on the Round Tops with just themselves and maybe a signal corp. Confederate units were approaching and no Union units had made it to their position. Meade calmly drew his sword prompting his staff to reluctantly do the same. At the last minute Union units burst on the scene. Meade calmly guided the units into position as the Confederates approached. When one of his staff commented on how precarious the situation was, he exclaimed, "Yes, but it's all right now!"

Meade is buried in Philadelphia's Laurel Hill Cemetery. His grave stone reads, "He did his work bravely and is at rest"

[RHMerriman]

47. Good summary...

Combat command is so far from a science, really the only way to learn is by doing (although a professional military education in a force that values field experience over spit and polish parade ground soldiering helps lay the foundation), and "learning the business" as a company and field grade officer before reaching the general officer ranks makes a huge difference.

On the rebel side, setting aside their cause for a moment, Lee - despite his flaws - stands out head and shoulders as a theater/army level commander, given his competition is (essentially) JE Johnston, AS Johnston, Beauregard (maybe), Bragg, and JB Hood... and only Lee and JE Johnston were in command at that level at the end of the war.

However, on the US side in 1865, there's Grant, Sherman, Meade, Thomas, and Sheridan, all active, all in the field, and all quite capable of defeating their enemies.

[modrepub]

74. Maybe

Ever notice that the further the action was from DC the sooner the Union forces bested their Confederate counter parts? If Shilo was closer to the Capital, Grant may never have been given another command. I'll give you that the main reason Grant was promoted was because he and Lincoln were generally cut from the same cloth (Midwesterners) and Lincoln deserved to pick people he was comfortable with. The commanders of AoP (until Grant took over) were never given a free hand to deal with Lee, plus half of them were chosen for their political connections (Burnside, Hooker, Pope) and not necessarily their ability. The commanders of the AoP were given a dual assignment; attack Lee's army of NV and protect the Capital. No other army was given those types of constrictive parameters. McClellan may have been too cautious but he was an excellent organize (given his rail road background) and his overall plan of taking the Mississippi and blockading the Confederate ports was sound. Furthermore, his Peninsula Campaign concept was the one that ultimately captured Richmond and Lincoln withheld troops McClellan had wanted to use in the Peninsula when he realized that troops were being stripped from the Capital (the armies were numerically similar). McClellan correctly deduced that the AoP could not be supplied using single rail roads (attacking from the north or west) and would be easier supplied using boats and barges off the Chesapeake. After Lee's army collapsed at Petersburg the AoP was being supplied via water from the Chesapeake and its tributaries; Lincoln no longer required direct coverage of Washington.

When Grant was promoted to L Gen and given command of all Union armies Meade offered his resignation to allow Grant to pick someone more to his liking. Grant appreciated the offer but refused; Meade was the longest serving commander of AoP. Grant didn't like Washington so he went out in the field with Meade and basically directed his actions. The western generals got all of the glory. Grant played favorites and allowed Sheridan to independently operate the Union calvary attached to the AoP and to ignore Meade's orders. At Appomattox, Grant basically took all of his staff and Generals. There were no representatives from the AoP at the surrender; a slight to the eastern commanders and generals who had fought agains Lee for many years.

[RHMerriman]

79. The eastern theater was always going to be "special" however, for the very reasons you suggest

The eastern theater was always going to be "special" however, for the very reasons you suggest.

The conflict was political, the mobilization was organized by the governors, the two "capitals" were in the same theater, once Davis et al moved to Richmond, etc.

Grant, and Meade to a lesser degree, managed their relationship with the commander-in-chief much better in that regard than McClellan et al. Given the realities of the situation, Grant was much more successful at managing his chain of command (up and down) than McClellan, McDowell, etc ever were.

And managing expectations up is as much a function of military leadership as managing subordinates down. The March-Pershing relationship in WW I, and Marshall-Eisenhower (or King-Nimitz) relationships in WW 2 are good examples in terms of positives; MacArthur-Truman is Korea is a negative.

Grant and Lincoln complimented in other in the same way Grant and Sherman did; the US was fortunate to have them.

[paleotn]

55. Too aggressive, yes, but he had little choice...

It was well known even then that the south couldn't win a war of attrition. His only option was a knock out blow, turning northern public sentiment against the war effort and forcing the federal government to the negotiating table. It was really their only option and those in power knew it all too well. Anything else was delusional. I'm not of the opinion that the UK or France would have ever intervened or significantly assisted the Confederacy at any point, no matter what happened. Both had outlawed slavery generations before and morally and politically couldn't support the south. Imports of southern cotton would return to normal levels eventually no matter if the south won or lost.

[Aristus]

21. One little anecdote about Lee's surrender tells you everything you need to know about him.

Lee prepared for the surrender talks by putting on his best uniform and looking resplendant in tailored cadet-gray with lashings of gold braid. Meanwhile, the soldiers in his army were wearing rags, and only a lucky few had shoes or boots.

For the surrender ceremony, Grant wore a simple private's uniform with his general's stars as his only adornment.

[gladium et scutum]

73. Old wives tale

Grant was not wearing a simple privates uniform. He was wearing a dark blue officer's "sack" coat, with dark blue trousers. From a distance it would have looked similar to the fatigue jackets worn by Union Army troop. Grant's uniform was tailored for him and was made of the best materials. The sack coat was not an "official" uniform. But many officers in the army wore them in the field because they were comfortable and more practical than the regulation frock style coat.

[Aristus]

75. The point of the anecdote was really more about Lee and his men.

Lee spent a lot of money keeping well-tailored uniforms handy when he could have spent some of it on shoes and food for his men. Better for us that he didn't, but still; some devotion to 'the cause'.

[gladium et scutum]

76. Officers in both armies were responsible for providing their own

uniforms and personal weapons. Enlisted men of both armies were clothed and equipped by their respective governments. The Confederate State in 1864 simply lacked the ability to clothe, equip and feed it's armies. That was not Lee's doing, its a failure of the Confederacy.

[Aristus]

77. A number of wealthy officers on both sides spent personal funds to equip their men.

Lee couldn't be bothered.

[gladium et scutum]

78. Lee wasnt wealthy.

His wife's estate at Arlington had been seized for taxes. The Custis property's South of Washington DC was in Federal hands. His income after 1862 was his pay from the Confederate Government.

[trueblue2007]

22. ...... Hateful, Ignorant and a monster (I think like Hitler), these words describes Trump to a "T" .

[captain queeg]

28. Know very little about the civil war...

But guys like Rommel and Guderian seemed to hold Lee in high regard so he couldn’t have been all bad. Though Rommel was a bit over rated himself. In general, like all things, hindsight is 20/20.

[Aristus]

46. Rommel and Guderian were serving a cruel, repressive, racist government.

So they knew one of their own when they saw him.

[captain queeg]

70. True but they both made stands against him at one time or anotger

Rommel was forced to commit suicide for his involvement in the plot to assasinate Hitler. Guderian was sacked for not obeying his orders.

[hack89]

30. All those Union generals he whipped might disagree

All of his contemporaries on both sides held him in very high regards as did his soldiers.

[sarisataka]

48. Lots of military experts

Running around today that can judge a career based on one battle...

OTOH military skill does not directly relate to a person's character. There have been many skilled generals who have been awful human beings

[spanone]

34. trump doesn't know shit about any general. he's only full of shit.

we're talking about general lee when we should be talking about the fact that trump told the nazis he had their backs in charlottesville

the master of distraction

[captain queeg]

42. Didn't you know Trump knows more about the military than his generals?

Because he went to a military boarding school for problem boys -Wharton. That’s what he said anyway. Would Trump lie?

[spanone]

45. Bwahahahahahaaaa...i'm sorry

not

[andym]

49. The South outperformed their economic and military capabilities compared to the North

to make a war that might have lasted a few months last 5 years. Lee as the commander of the Army of Northern Virginia and then the overall Confederate commander as General in Chief gets some credit no matter how much he underperformed at Gettysburg. That doesn't mean he should be celebrated or remembered as a fine human being. He wasn't, especially with respect to slavery.

[Alpeduez21]

52. A strategist would've understood the importance of

keeping Vicksburg. Instead of reinforcing that Lee went to Gettysburg so his troops could potentially steal shoes from the factory there. Vicksburg fell the same day Lee lost Gettysburg. Without Vicksburg the Mississippi was open to the Union. ("Once again the father of all waters runs unfettered." Boy could Lincoln speak well)

[paleotn]

58. I wouldn't go that far....

He was talented tactically and strategically, but was saddled with a task he and no one else could ever accomplish. Eventually, the south would be ground to dust. It was a mathematical certainty that I'm sure he knew. If anything, I see the Gettysburg blunders being errors of sheer frustration as anything else, along with a helping of believing his own mythology, seeking that ever elusive knock out blow. It's like a fighter having to punch well above his weight. Their only hope is to get lucky and seriously sting the opponent. But as long as the northern public were behind the war effort, defeat for the south was a forgone conclusion.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

59. He was one who took bold action which ended up being his undoing

There was many a time he'd split his forces and surprise the Union troops. But in taking these risks his men would suffer higher than normal casualties.

He was using Napoleonic tactics just as armaments and artillery were getting more deadly.

Both the rifled Parrot gun artillery and the Minie ball (pronounced min-ay after the Frenchman who invented it) used by infantry made a mass charge suicidal.

I've been to Gettysburg and walked the route the Confederates took on Pickett's charge. Not surprised they were slaughtered as exposed as they were.

[Bonx]

80. I know nothing abiut the civil war, but Lee was a jerk!