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Sat May 4, 2019, 03:56 PM

I spend a lot of time in the company of Trumpers. I've learned something important.

The people I work with tend to be very conservative politically. I discourage political talk on my flight deck because politics distracts from our job there and that is not ok. But every once in a while they just can’t help themselves and blurt something out. Something that they obviously feel is such a universal truth and so self evident that it isn’t “really” political. It is ALWAYS one of the following things:

1. Government doesn’t work. It is a scam that only enriches politicians.

2. Obama and anyone named Clinton are proven criminals. Everyone knows this. The Government protects them.

These folks aren’t crazy. They are highly trained, highly skilled, highly experienced and highly professional. They are screened for delusions and personality disorders before they ever get to work with me. But they believe these two things just as surely as they believe in gravity.

These two beliefs explain why they do not care if Trump lies. It explains why they don’t care if he committed crimes. It explains why they don’t believe anything the MSM has to say about Trump. They are believers. They are brainwashed.

I first started noticing signs of this 20 years ago and figured that when Clinton was never charged with anything other than lying about sex, they would incorporate that. Or that when Hillary was never found to have done anything wrong after years of investigation, they would incorporate that. Or that when the ACA gave millions of people access to health insurance and slowed the runaway rise in medical costs, they would incorporate that. I was wrong.

Instead, what these events did was to further convince them that their fundamental beliefs are true.

These folks, and just about anyone who still identifies as Republican, are beyond reaching. There is quite literally nothing that will change their belief in the two “facts”' above that define their political reality. It won’t happen when Trump is impeached. It won’t happen when the 2020 election is disputed, and it won’t happen when Trump starts jailing his political opponents. The process of making their political beliefs bulletproof has been successful and it is complete.

And from where I sit, this process has indoctrinated more people than we think. We have a big problem in this country. And it is getting worse.

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Reply I spend a lot of time in the company of Trumpers. I've learned something important. (Original post)
mn9driver May 2019 OP
watoos May 2019 #1
mopinko May 2019 #10
elleng May 2019 #22
CaptainTruth May 2019 #44
mopinko May 2019 #52
Hortensis May 2019 #83
iluvtennis May 2019 #86
Ligyron May 2019 #123
Callmecrazy May 2019 #156
lambchopp59 May 2019 #152
livetohike May 2019 #105
tikka May 2019 #114
Mr.Bill May 2019 #29
kag May 2019 #146
Mr.Bill May 2019 #164
PatrickforO May 2019 #51
Efilroft Sul May 2019 #61
Drunken Irishman May 2019 #70
Left-over May 2019 #75
lambchopp59 May 2019 #154
wryter2000 May 2019 #82
Nuggets May 2019 #93
certainot May 2019 #104
Kilgore May 2019 #107
certainot May 2019 #120
Kilgore May 2019 #133
certainot May 2019 #140
misanthrope May 2019 #122
olegramps May 2019 #145
olegramps May 2019 #144
TwilightZone May 2019 #2
watoos May 2019 #6
TwilightZone May 2019 #8
at140 May 2019 #69
misanthrope May 2019 #126
misanthrope May 2019 #124
yaesu May 2019 #47
LastLiberal in PalmSprings May 2019 #3
mn9driver May 2019 #4
watoos May 2019 #9
TryLogic May 2019 #108
LastLiberal in PalmSprings May 2019 #138
Demit May 2019 #13
Jake Stern May 2019 #42
walkingman May 2019 #131
deurbano May 2019 #50
oldsoftie May 2019 #125
CharleyDog May 2019 #84
rwheeler31 May 2019 #5
watoos May 2019 #14
aeromanKC May 2019 #31
Kitchari May 2019 #98
luvtheGWN May 2019 #99
jayschool2013 May 2019 #112
mn9driver May 2019 #19
yaesu May 2019 #48
uponit7771 May 2019 #132
DFW May 2019 #7
watoos May 2019 #17
DBoon May 2019 #49
DFW May 2019 #66
moonscape May 2019 #89
Hortensis May 2019 #11
retread May 2019 #12
Glorfindel May 2019 #15
watoos May 2019 #20
FakeNoose May 2019 #43
ariadne0614 May 2019 #16
mn9driver May 2019 #28
Maraya1969 May 2019 #18
watoos May 2019 #21
treestar May 2019 #25
Maraya1969 May 2019 #127
treestar May 2019 #158
not fooled May 2019 #141
femmocrat May 2019 #151
Meowmee May 2019 #23
treestar May 2019 #24
NotHardly May 2019 #26
rzemanfl May 2019 #100
stopbush May 2019 #27
nocoincidences May 2019 #35
lunasun May 2019 #38
bluestarone May 2019 #63
stopbush May 2019 #73
safeinOhio May 2019 #30
barbtries May 2019 #32
moondust May 2019 #33
mn9driver May 2019 #41
BootinUp May 2019 #34
dawg day May 2019 #36
mn9driver May 2019 #53
stopwastingmymoney May 2019 #71
mountain grammy May 2019 #37
BarbD May 2019 #39
The_jackalope May 2019 #40
Ferrets are Cool May 2019 #58
misanthrope May 2019 #128
liberalmediaaddict May 2019 #45
yaesu May 2019 #46
Aviation Pro May 2019 #54
mn9driver May 2019 #55
iamateacher May 2019 #56
Ferrets are Cool May 2019 #57
patphil May 2019 #59
no_hypocrisy May 2019 #60
Different Drummer May 2019 #165
sop May 2019 #62
Texin May 2019 #64
Mosby May 2019 #65
underpants May 2019 #67
MrScorpio May 2019 #68
Pepsidog May 2019 #72
TryLogic May 2019 #110
unblock May 2019 #74
appalachiablue May 2019 #91
ginnyinWI May 2019 #76
Beringia May 2019 #77
Martin Eden May 2019 #78
Alwaysna May 2019 #94
InAbLuEsTaTe May 2019 #79
deurbano May 2019 #80
Fiendish Thingy May 2019 #81
empedocles May 2019 #85
Thomas Hurt May 2019 #87
warmfeet May 2019 #88
appalachiablue May 2019 #90
bluestarone May 2019 #92
BobTheSubgenius May 2019 #95
Marengo May 2019 #160
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #96
machoneman May 2019 #97
demigoddess May 2019 #101
samplegirl May 2019 #139
demigoddess May 2019 #166
saidsimplesimon May 2019 #102
Irishxs May 2019 #103
MadDAsHell May 2019 #106
Botany May 2019 #109
czarjak May 2019 #111
Honeycombe8 May 2019 #113
mrsadm May 2019 #115
Demonaut May 2019 #116
dlk May 2019 #117
Steven Maurer May 2019 #118
pnwmom May 2019 #119
SayItLoud May 2019 #121
shanny May 2019 #129
Heartstrings May 2019 #130
Chin music May 2019 #134
Hulk May 2019 #135
LineReply .
struggle4progress May 2019 #136
Doodley May 2019 #137
Aussie105 May 2019 #142
sokpupet May 2019 #143
GetRidOfThem May 2019 #147
mpreorder May 2019 #148
Cosmocat May 2019 #149
JGug1 May 2019 #150
lambchopp59 May 2019 #153
Trumpocalypse May 2019 #155
Nitram May 2019 #157
California_Republic May 2019 #159
cp May 2019 #161
colsohlibgal May 2019 #162
BlueJac May 2019 #163
Blue_Tires May 2019 #167

Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:04 PM

1. Ronald Reagan is the foundation,

 

of this propaganda.

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:28 PM

10. and the degradation of our educational systems.

 

that was the beginning of the end of critical thinking in schools, and the rise of teaching to the test.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:54 PM

22. Yes.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:27 PM

44. +1000 To reverse this trend we MUST improve our schools & teach critical thinking.


The educational approach of standardized testing & "teaching to the test" does not teach people how to think, how to evaluate facts & determine truth.

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Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #44)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:39 PM

52. it teaches them to swallow whatever swill is thrown at them.

 

and to spit it back out, over and over, and still never think about it.
combined w killing both arts and trades, it's a wonder any of them can think at all.

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Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #44)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:40 PM

83. I've learned personality traits and "tribal" groupthink

rule for a significant proportion of people. Not education.

I once thought the first best approach to every societal problem was education. Now I understand that, though, yes, we must teach critical thinking and commitment to the value of truth, for a significant portion of the population most learning will be discarded as soon as it conflicts with what those want to believe. More education for these types simply allows them to use more erudite words in more complex sentences.

So standard education needs to get smarter, somehow better and more sustainable. Perhaps more targeted to the thinking patterns of individuals.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #83)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:50 PM

86. groupthink - agree. nt

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Response to iluvtennis (Reply #86)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:36 PM

123. ...and tribalism.

Very similar to the rabid fan support of a favorite football team.

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Response to Ligyron (Reply #123)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:10 AM

156. Or a God...

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Response to CaptainTruth (Reply #44)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:45 AM

152. I maintain the best intervention includes passage of a rewritten Fairness Doctrine

Daunting task, as so much misinformation has been created to suit some polluting or insanely greedy corporate profits.
But it must be done to create a more equitable and non-toxic world for our progeny.
It starts by saying... (excuse the Obama ripoff slogan) Yes we can! restore FACTS with a accredited multi-university effort.
Once news media can only report an accredited set of facts as news, otherwise must be labelled "opinion",
We're well on the way to healing this gaping wound.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:07 PM

105. Yes. I left teaching during the Reagan era. Best decision

I ever made.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #10)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:38 PM

114. The hard core will just home school their kids like they do now

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:00 PM

29. "The Government is the problem".

(And I want to be in charge of it.)

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #29)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:49 AM

146. That's the one I have the hardest time with.

They're so convinced that "government" only exists to cause problems, but they are so anxious to run it, and to have as many of their "own kind" running it with them. I guess it's how they self-fulfill their own prophecy.

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Response to kag (Reply #146)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:44 PM

164. Yes. The republicans say government doesn't work

then they get elected and prove it. What other job can you get where failure is the standard?

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:38 PM

51. I alway have believed that it began with the Powell Manifesto to the US chamber in

1971, followed by Reagan's pocket veto of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987.

Those two things have pretty much destroyed this republic.

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #51)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:57 PM

61. You and me both.

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:12 PM

70. Nixon was the foundation...

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:19 PM

75. There has been a systematic brainwashing of people.

In the 1980's before Reagan changed the rules for the media the area where I live voted Democrat overwhelmingly and was strong on unions. In 2016 the voters in my county voted at an 80% rate for the buffoon in the white house.

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Response to Left-over (Reply #75)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:51 AM

154. I maintain the best intervention includes passage of a rewritten Fairness Doctrine


Daunting task, as so much misinformation has been created to suit some polluting or insanely greedy corporate profits.
But it must be done to create a more equitable and non-toxic world for our progeny.
It starts by saying... (excuse the Obama ripoff slogan) Yes we can! restore FACTS with a accredited multi-university effort.
Once news media can only report an accredited set of facts as news, otherwise must be labelled "opinion",
We're well on the way to healing this gaping wound.

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:39 PM

82. Yup

He was the beginning of the end of rationality

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:15 PM

93. Oh yeah. Reagan's "government is the problem "

 

bit.


I play cards with several elderly Conservatives and they all repeat this slogan from time to time.

Then one afternoon a few were complaining about having to be on hold for 30 minutes with the social security office waiting to talk to a representative.

I pointed out those are the same people so many complain about “not working” and so insist on voting for politicians who advocate cutting budgets and thus jobs. The room got awkwardly quiet.

After a while the argument “see, we pay all of theses people and they sit around getting free money and all they have to do is answer a phone and answer simple questions“

I suggested he get a job in customer service just “answering simple questions” and find out why it’s so difficult.
Imo those who deal with customers are drastically under paid.

I changed no ones mind.


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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:07 PM

104. because he killed the fairness doctrine. the 20-1 talk radio monopoly of 1500 radio stations are

the problem that the left and democrats ignore, so they keep analyzing politics as if studying fish without water.

the reason trump displayed limbaugh publicly as golf partner the day after the mueller report was to send clear message to any republican politician — do not even think about cooperating with democrats in investigations and impeachment.

when limbaugh sends his dittohead army after a ‘traitor’ in the ranks it matters and it’s worked for 30 years.

by far the best offense democrats and the ‘left’ could mount is to finish up what stoprush et all started, x100 with artificial intelligence, and put putin’s other tool limbaugh, the 20-1 monopoly (the only advantage trump has) out of business. when the radio advertising industry has to start asking advertisers if they really want to support trump and global warming denial market forces will cut 1500 down to 200 and there won't be a need for another fairness doctrine.

since the dem party and the progressive orgs are mostly run by city folk who have grown up ignorant of talk radio that probably won’t happen so it will come down to a mueller spinoff showing putin’s been using talk radio at least a decade and the social media ops have been piggybacking that unchallenged repetition.

it seems unlikely mueller would not have found out the trump team (new york magazine 4/3/16) analyzed "1000's of hours of talk radio" in 2014, the same year a russian troll said they got "a list of topics to write about".

that may be why hannity was mentioned in the report 5 times but in the glossary between 'graff' and 'hawker', the name where hannity would be, is totally redacted as 'harm to ongoing matter'

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Response to certainot (Reply #104)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:45 PM

107. There is only one reason limbaugh is on so many stations

He brings in the advertising revenue, and without that revenue, the station goes away.

I spoke to the station manager in my town about replacing limbaugh. His answer was "with what?" He went on to say that he would gladly broadcast Chinese opera if it sells advertising. His view is that progressive broadcasting has no audience in the area that would drive advertising.

He probably is right. Our two county area went big for trump in 16.

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #107)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:11 PM

120. that only applies to little stations. and iheart is $20BIL in debt. it's irrelevant and doesn't

factor in that they completely escape scrutiny and challenge for the lying and hate.

the business end is about what's the loudest signal in the country and how many ears does it reach. they bought up those stations for limbaugh for him to anchor and police the other 8 or 12 hours of talk radio- they all have to follow his lead or his frustrated dittoheads, unable to call him and suck his thumb, will call into the local blowhards and correct them.

liberal talkers compete with and beat con talkers. but it's mom and pop vs wall mart - they never get the chance because there's a well protected monopoly to beat and the ultimate deciders know losing a few billion is worth it to get republicans in to lower taxes, deny global warming, etc and trash democracy - worth trillions.

AI changes everything and while democrats complain about their reps to going far enough on impeachment they ignore 1500 radio stations attacking them all day

it's not about station managers not wanting to piss off the local used car business, it's about americans getting serious about how our public airwaves are used - by the kremlin- and how they will be used in the next months. like why is talk radio being used to spread the idea that there are africans coming in through the southern border? because ebola clinics are being attacked (by whom?) and like in 2014 1500 radio stations will be talking about ebola coming across the border.

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Response to certainot (Reply #120)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:07 AM

133. Ok, but here the choice is limbaugh or hannity

How do we fix that? How do we get a progressive on local radio?

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #133)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:57 AM

140. all self criticism of dems and the left is bullshit until they recognize talk radio's part, which is

dominant.

as soon as any community decides global warming denial is idiotic and any local advertiser who supports it on the limbaugh station is a sack of shit then trump and the republicans lose the only real advantage they have

and every trump protest can work x10 if it's at one of these 88 universities, which support 260 or 44% of limbaugh stations

the democatic party and the progressive orgs are wasting donations and volunteer hours by ignoring talk radio. it's really fucking stupid.

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #107)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:34 PM

122. This is part of why Adam Smith was wrong

Embracing the philosophy of free market omnipotence working for good is garbage. When others are seen as consumers only, as sheep to be fleeced, then the resulting dehumanization creates a race to the bottom. Altruism has no place in such a reality.

The market will always seek to eradicate any force -- education, intellect, ethics -- that stands in its way of optimum exploitation. A race to the bottom serves it best.

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Response to Kilgore (Reply #107)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:41 AM

145. That is the result of the problem. Group think that is controlled.

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Response to watoos (Reply #1)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:36 AM

144. It also very difficult to counter under the existing situation. Repub control the broadcasts.

I don't understand why when the Democrats were in control the didn't attempt to reverse the policies on the Fairness Doctrine.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:11 PM

2. Some of them think Trump was literally sent by God to "save America".

The amount of self-delusion required to believe that is truly extraordinary.

"And from where I sit, this process has indoctrinated more people than we think. "

I've spent most of my life in red parts of the country, and I've been pretty aware how prevalent it is. I've seen essentially the same crap for 40 years, dating to Reagan and the Moral Majority.

I'm not even sure it's getting worse; Reagan managed to snowball a huge chunk of our society and we're still paying for it. I think it's only more visible now because today, everyone has a platform. It's more exposed thanks to social media and the like. Trump has also encouraged people to be more vocal about their bigotry and ignorance as if they are positive character traits.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #2)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:24 PM

6. Reagan was the one

 

who got working men and women to vote against their own best interests. Reagan led the fight against unions, and the loss of middle income wages can be traced directly with the decline of unions.

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Response to watoos (Reply #6)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:25 PM

8. Agreed.

Trump is just the latest manifestation of a process that has been going on for decades. He's just more overt about it than the rest of them would like, which is why they never really do anything tangible to stop him.

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Response to watoos (Reply #6)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:10 PM

69. Why do you think so much industry moved to

non-union southern states from highly unionized east and midwest? I worked 37 years
in Chicago, and the number of shuttered down plants was astounding and depressing.
Why do you think union membership has decreased steadily in the private sector?

If someone has the valid answers to above, that could explain how Reagan got men and women
to vote against their interests.

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Response to at140 (Reply #69)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:58 PM

126. That's been a time-honored pattern

Nearly a century ago, the textile industry began flocking southward because the workers were easier to exploit. Junior Senator John F. Kennedy noted as much back in the 1950s.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1954/01/new-england-and-the-south/376244/

In contemporary times, it became obvious the South was the last domestic stop for industries before they fled the country.

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Response to watoos (Reply #6)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:48 PM

124. More than Reagan

Plenty of working men and women across the South voted against their best interests since the latter portion of the 19th century. Even though many of the politicians they elected were members of the Democratic Party, they did the bidding of the landed gentry, the "Big Mules" whose goal was always a one-party, oligarchical system hinging on Southern society's comfort with authoritarianism.

Plenty of them loved Dixiecrats and the monied interests that drove them, even though the working class and lower paid the price for such fealty. That continued with their support for Barry Goldwater. Nixon would have won the Deep South in 1968 were it not for Wallace.

Reagan was merely the best salesman, the one with the practiced avuncular image. He already had working people in the South in his pocket but what he did was sell it to the rest of the nation.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #2)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:32 PM

47. yep, one is on tape at a rally saying tRump is 2 steps above God, no kidding. nt

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:16 PM

3. My sister-in-law also has political Tourette syndrome.

We'll be having a perfectly normal conversation and suddenly she'll blurt out, "Goddam tree huggers. Hillary Clinton should be in prison. Obama is a Muslim." I've learned to ignore these outbursts, but they still amaze me. Like others have noted, she's an educated woman who has significant achievements under her belt. One day scientists will be able to dissect their brains and see what went wrong.

BTW, my favorite one involves how the government serves no purpose, since both she and her husband are retired Los Angeles employees drawing not-insignificant pensions.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #3)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:23 PM

4. Cognitive dissonance is common with these folks.

They rail against government while many are drawing retired military pensions and using Tricare to insure their families. They hate unions while belonging to a union that gave them the pay and benefits they have now.

They have no problem holding these beliefs.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #4)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:28 PM

9. Scientists, or doctors, or whoever it was,

 

did a study of the brains of liberals and conservatives. The area of the brain that is associated with fear is more pronounced in conservatives. That tells me that they are more prone to being manipulated by propaganda.

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Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:54 PM

108. I agree. And fear mongering. I think there should be a concerted effort to label them as gullible.

Most people would rather not be labeled as such. There might be a slim chance it would engage their brains a little.

A closely related problem is religion. They isolate their beliefs from reality. But they have a strong need to be misinformed as long as it supports their world view.

Religious people can be very dangerous. In most cases, religion is about eternity. That is much more serious to them than temporary earthly problems such as the need to eliminate persons who do not share their belief system or who do not support their current messiah. It can be serious enough for them to be willing to kill. Wars are often defined in religious terms.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #4)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:39 AM

138. I asked the wife of a retired union member who complained about all the dues he'd paid

over the years about where'd they get the money to buy their house, pay for college for three children, have excellent medical insurance and a good retirement, and drive new cars. Did she think it came from the largess of the corporation her husband had worked for? Or maybe it was that the union negotiated all these benefits?

Her response was to change the topic to how Muslims only wanted to kill us.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #3)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:35 PM

13. I know people drawing city government pensions, rabid Republicans, Trump fans all.

 

They live comfortable lives, but don't credit the liberal policies that led to it. I wonder at the disconnect.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #3)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:22 PM

42. Had a relative who retired from a union job after 30 years

Used to be a solid Dem voter but it seems like the second he retired he morphed into an Ayn Rand clone.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #42)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:03 AM

131. I actually know a former Union Local President that has always been a Republican. Of course this

is in Texas. Also several Area Reps - strange stuff.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #3)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:37 PM

50. Both my parents fed at the government "trough" their WHOLE working lives, yet would say the same

about government...

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Response to deurbano (Reply #50)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:58 PM

125. Well, to those folks the "government" is in D.C. nt

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #3)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:46 PM

84. it's brainwashing, classic symptom. Like suddenly singing a jingle for Oscar Meyer hotdogs

Brainwashing as the OP says. I have seen my own family members get this indoctrination, they are intelligent people, yet are now in the cult. The brain loves reward, and Fox News, hate radio gives the reward while programming the message.

to fix this, I'm sorry to say, we have to legislate "news" shows and restrict them from spreading lies and propaganda. We have to demand "evidenced-based" news only. And evidence-based laws only. We should mock people who restrict science. We should mock "religious" people who use Christianity for hate instead of "love thy neighbor as thyself."

Yes, and teach critical thinking, but most in the cult have shunned education for one reason or another.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:24 PM

5. So what do we do about it?

It is hard to read these posts, sounds like you have given up.

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #5)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:36 PM

14. It's not exactly giving up, but,

 

I live among Trumpers in central Pa. and it is pointless to debate with them, they are like zombies. I have decided to just use snarky retorts on them where they have no way to defend against my snark.

Many of them are racist, bigoted, misogynistic people. I golf with the nicest 86 year old person. He is a Korean War vet, did Meals on Wheels, is active in his church, participates in military funerals. He hates minorities and anyone who isn't a white male "Christian."

He asked me what was the day that will live in infamy. I answered Pearl Harbor. He said no, in 1920 when they passed the 19th Amendment giving women the right to vote. It was not a joke.

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Response to watoos (Reply #14)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:05 PM

31. Improtant to remember, the Blue Wave of 2018 even hit PA

Dems will never get those whacked out Trumper's you talk about (btw: that 86 year old is not a Christian OR is a slow reader and has not come to the Jesus parts of the Bible yet) but will depend on improving on the 2018 Blue Wave model of driving our own GOTV and recapturing Independents to retake back the "Rust Belt" in 2020. Trumper MAGAt's are too far gone from reality to be a part of our 2020 strategy.

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Response to watoos (Reply #14)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:47 PM

98. OMG

Stunning

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Response to watoos (Reply #14)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:50 PM

99. "I golf with the nicest 86 year old person".

Really?

From your quotes, he sure doesn't sound very nice. He sounds mean, self-centred, a racist and a mysogynist. How can you stand him?

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Response to luvtheGWN (Reply #99)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:31 PM

112. I know, right?

What if the person in question, during the next round of golf, came out as a transgender man to the "nicest 86-year old"? Doubt he would seem so nice.

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #5)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:47 PM

19. Good question. The way I see it the problem is twofold:

1. It isn’t illegal for propaganda mills to lie, and unless someone successfully alters our interpretation of the first amendment, it cannot be made illegal.

2. Before Fox and before the internet, naked propaganda wasn’t nearly as polished and accessible. These days, there are dozens or hundreds of convincingly official looking sources providing this content.

I think it is the main reason Trump is pushing back on Facebook and Twitter banning extremist material. They are doing what the government cannot. If more internet and cable platforms did the same, it might have an effect. But I’m far from convinced of that.

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #5)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:34 PM

48. a fox fake news lobotomy is irreversible & isn't covered by ACA. nt

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #5)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:05 AM

132. Same thing people do to radicalized ISIS fighters; devalue thier stupidity with reality

... and condescension.

It's found to work, just hard to be pithy and pointed

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:24 PM

7. They remind me of the true believers of the old East German regime

I had occasion to be in East Berlin several times when it was still a Soviet colony. Perfectly normal people, even college students, as I was the first time I was there, were out there saying that they lived in a socialist paradise, and that we in the west were their ideological enemies. They needed the Berlin Wall as protection, etc. etc. They were fascinated to meet with an American student who spoke German, but spouted the party line word for word. They listened only to their own media, and there was just no other truth for them. They, as intelligent regime supporters were doing fine, and implied that anyone who wasn't had only themselves to blame. On the way back to West Berlin, over the years, starting with my first visit as a college student, I was taken aside by the East Germans and interrogated for an hour or more in a windowless room where I was the only one without a gun, a uniform or the right to stand up. Heil Honecker.

Sound familiar?

Fox "News" is only the radical right's version of an old tactic: control the media, control their minds. They can be friendly. They can be intelligent. So can a trained dog. The dog will still do what he has been trained to do. So will the indoctrinated humans. They may be your friendly co-workers today. They nonetheless will participate in your firing squad if Fox "News" tells them it's the right thing to do.

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Response to DFW (Reply #7)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:42 PM

17. Yes, well explained.

 

You described my 86 year old golfing "buddy."

People underestimate the role that the M$M plays. It isn't just Fox News but it is the worst.

Fox News says that Obama beat his wife.
CNN says it needs more information.
MSNBC says he absolutely did not.
What's the difference? The 3 cable news networks are still talking about Obama beating his wife.

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Response to DFW (Reply #7)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:35 PM

49. Someone argued that was the source or Orban's success in Hungary

People spent decades listening to the one communist tv station and believed everything it said. When communism fell, the one tv station was still there, just with a right wing anti immigrant bias.

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Response to DBoon (Reply #49)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:04 PM

66. Yes, Orban learned well from his predecessors

And it's hard to forget the enthusiastic collaboration of the Hungarian regime to finish up the "final solution" in 1944, when the war was already lost for their side.

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Response to DFW (Reply #66)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:02 PM

89. A Hungarian cousin who lives in

Budapest, highly educated (retired radiologist who got her MD at University of Chicago but opted to practice in Hungary for cultural, literary, the arts reasons ... ‘here I am an educated person’) is - inexplicably to me - an Orban supporter. She finds his ‘strength’ appealing. It’s as heartbreaking to me as it is mystifying.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:31 PM

11. Interesting observation. Psychologists refer to those as "frames,"

foundations of truth so basic that it needs no verification, and against which all other input is checked for validity. As soon as you or anyone else tell these people that Hillary is not a crook, they immediately know nothing further said on that subject, or a bunch of others, will be true.

I have my own frames. After years of watching, I believe: Democratic government controlled by hard-core conservatives doesn't work. Trump is a criminal.

Some time ago, someone hearing me say I was strongly liberal sincerely (though not in a friendly spirit) recommended I read Anne Coulter to understand liberals. Needless to say, that was rejected out of hand and that person permanently lost all political credibility on the spot. Not just political, either.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:35 PM

12. Another one that really frosts my ass is the old "They're all the same." bs. You point out the

malfeasance and criminality of the repugs and trumpistas and they respond with that crap. What a lazy, bullshit way to not do your duty as a citizen!

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:37 PM

15. These people can not be reached. You can't change their minds.

Fortunately, they are FAR from being a majority of voters; they just act as if they were. And they'll crawl through hell in order to vote for *tRump and other repukes. Our job is to motivate Democrats and independents to get out and vote as if their lives depended on it, which they do.

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Response to Glorfindel (Reply #15)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:49 PM

20. That is what inspires me,

 

Trump will get his base to vote for him, but that isn't enough, IF, Democrats vote like we did in 2018. We can overcome the rigged voting machines and election fraud that Republicans pull if we vote in numbers.

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Response to watoos (Reply #20)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:23 PM

43. +1000 That's the key

We need all the Democrats, and all the liberal-thinking or Trump-hating independents.
Plus maybe a few Repukes staying home.

If all that happens, we do have a good chance.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:40 PM

16. Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

That’s what this thread made me think of.
http://philosophybites.libsyn.com/simon_blackburn_on_plato_s_cave

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Response to ariadne0614 (Reply #16)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:59 PM

28. Interesting. I'll give it a listen.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:47 PM

18. I ask them what specific crimes Hillary Clinton committed.

Usually they get a blank stare on their faces.

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #18)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:53 PM

21. We need to be ready.

 

Whoever our nominee is will get the Hillary treatment and then some. Just think what they did to her. Hole in her tongue, fell and has brain damage, has 6 months to live, ran a pedophile ring out of a pizza shop basement that doesn't have a basement, had a staffer murdered.

They are flat out evil. Today, Karl Rove would be a choir boy.

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #18)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:57 PM

25. Murder

Benghazi, Seth Rich and Vince Foster. They all know Hillary is guilty of this.

Funnily, the Republicans are not liable for "murder" under the same circumstances. And the terrorists, of whom we are all to be constantly worried about, had nothing to do with Benghazi. For that one instance they get a pass. Republican logic is not always understandable.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:59 PM

127. Trey Gowdy said on Fox that they knew she could not have stopped the attacks. But they

kept up with their accusations to try and create an air of guilt around her.

The other issues are hoaxes that were debunked years ago.

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #127)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:56 PM

158. Debunked for rational people

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #18)

Sun May 5, 2019, 05:42 AM

141. The dinosaur I used to know

old, unrepentant racist--said when I would ask "what crimes?" that he just KNOWS she's a criminal.

They "just know."


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Response to not fooled (Reply #141)

Sun May 5, 2019, 09:00 AM

151. Yes! It all makes perfect sense to them. nt

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:55 PM

23. They are crazy

You don’t have to be clinically diagnosed with something to be crazy on some level. There are plenty of high functioning people who have crazy beliefs not founded in fact and logic etc. or motivated by core beliefs such as anti abortion anti choice etc. they choose to brainwash themselves. I would just call them fascists.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:56 PM

24. If the government doesn't work, how come it does not continue to not work

with the Orange Joker in the Oval Office? So they are OK with it enriching him, rather than a "politician."

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:59 PM

26. Belief is not a skil set

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Response to NotHardly (Reply #26)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:51 PM

100. Gotta wash socks. BBL. n/t

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 04:59 PM

27. What do you expect from a bunch of Christians who are told

from childhood to believe that religious fantasies are facts, and that they are in possession of a secret knowledge that is unavailable to nonchristians? It’s a very small step from that to believing the lies and fantasies told by Rs.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #27)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:14 PM

35. Big truth here!

When you have softened the ability to reason it works with politics just like it does with religion.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #27)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:17 PM

38. They were easy marks . Twice suckered.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #27)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:02 PM

63. TRUE here! The BAD PART is

These same people will do whatever RUMP tells them to do when he loses in 2020! (It's that DO IN IN GODS name BULLSHIT) like killing an abortion dr. They just believe GOD wants them to do it!! THAT is the scary part!

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Response to bluestarone (Reply #63)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:14 PM

73. Don't forget Lying for Jesus, a time-honored tradition in the Xian church.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:02 PM

30. Only two kinds of Publicans left in the country....

Godless libertarians and Godless Christians.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:09 PM

32. trump's support is shrinking

just today i read the experience of a man who routinely dines every friday night with several trump supporters. they normally steer clear of politics. Last night every single one of them expressed that they are over trump and sick to death of his lying etc.

i'm sorry you have to work with these people, but don't give up hope. also, we are still in the majority.

having said all that, the only arguing i do with my trump/foxbot siblings is in my head. i cannot change them.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:11 PM

33. Die-hard, lawless libertarians?

Absolutely convinced that gubment bad, free market good?

Lawlessness is very Trumpian.

What age group?

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Response to moondust (Reply #33)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:22 PM

41. Most are in their 40s or early 50s. Many had a previous military career.

As I said in the OP, I stay away from politics in my work environment, so the proportion that believe they are libertarian is hard to guess.

I think this phenomenon shows mainly why Trump’s support never drops below 40ish percent. And it shows clearly that 60 percent of Americans are able to be swayed by evidence.

And it is why the House needs to hold investigative hearings, and clearly and repeatedly enumerate the reasons they believe it is required that they impeach him. We need to convince the 60 percent. The 40 percent is lost, with zero prospect of ever coming out of the bulletproof political bubble they live in.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:13 PM

34. The evidence u cite is just another symptom of

The real motivation. What makes them believe the propaganda is fear. Fear of change.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:15 PM

36. It's kind of like religion--

If you're religious, you believe X and Y, even if they're not true and couldn't possibly be true. ("God created the universe in 7 days 6000 years ago."
Usually for the rest of us, this is something we politely ignore, because generally it doesn't really affect us. When it DOES affect us ("God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! Therefore you can't marry the man you love", we might try to argue with it ("Wouldn't a compassionate God be for more love?", but then give up and resort to overpowering them with the law and democracy.

But when they elect someone who demands that they believe in him in the same dumb unquestioning way they believe in Adam and Eve? Well, I think it's time to stop being polite. (And I have been polite for 2 years now, because I felt sorry for them for being so duped and stupid.)

I've been experimenting, when one of those around me (I live in a reddish state) says something Trumpish like that, shrugging and saying, "Well, there's no use arguing with someone who belongs to the cult of Trump. You'll believe him no matter what I say."

What's scary is the number of the nonsenses they believe in now has expanded. Now to love Trump, they have to believe the FBI and the CIA are evil, that Putin is good, that Kim Jong Un writes beautiful letters, that it's good to refuse to pay your debts and to lie on your tax returns, and that women lie all the time.

It's ever-growing, the number of things they have to believe in. So my next response is going to be a very sympathetic, "It must be hard to have to believe in so many bad ideas because Trump told you to. I'm sorry you have to do that."

But I'm not going to argue with them anymore. I'm going to very loudly pity them. "You poor thing. It must be hard to worship Trump and hate everyone else."

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Response to dawg day (Reply #36)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:40 PM

53. The interesting thing is, many of them don't believe all the resultant lies.

But it just doesn’t matter. Since Clintonobama is a proven criminal who suffered no consequences because that is their bedrock belief, whether or not Trump is a crook or a liar is completely unimportant and irrelevant. They do not care.

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Response to dawg day (Reply #36)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:13 PM

71. This is very very good, thank you for writing it

I think I will try out your approach

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:16 PM

37. I know I posted a few days ago that

I thought we were doomed because "too many Americans are stupid."

I read your post and I know you're right. They're not stupid, but I don't know what they are. I just know they're dangerous. It took a consensus to commit the Holocaust, but we're looking at America, and the history we have of genocide and atrocities. Anything can happen here.

I also think it's getting worse.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:19 PM

39. You can't reason with unreasonable people.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:20 PM

40. New facts don't change peoples' minds.

https://heleo.com/facts-dont-change-peoples-minds-heres/16242/

Drowning the other person with facts, I assumed, was the best way to prove that global warming is real, the war on drugs has failed, or the current business strategy adopted by your risk-averse boss with zero imagination is not working. Since then, I’ve discovered a significant problem with this approach.

It doesn’t work.

As a result of the well-documented confirmation bias, we tend to undervalue evidence that contradicts our beliefs and overvalue evidence that confirms them. We filter out inconvenient truths and arguments on the opposing side. As a result, our opinions solidify, and it becomes increasingly harder to disrupt established patterns of thinking.

The key is to trick the mind by giving it an excuse. Convince your own mind (or your friend) that your prior decision or prior belief was the right one given what you knew, but now that the underlying facts have changed, so should the mind.

But instead of giving the mind an out, we often go for a punch to the gut. We belittle the other person (“I told you so”). We ostracize (“Basket of deplorables”). We ridicule (“What an idiot”).

Schadenfreude might be your favorite pastime, but it has the counterproductive effect of activating the other person’s defenses and solidifying their positions. The moment you belittle the mind for believing in something, you’ve lost the battle. At that point, the mind will dig in rather than give in. Once you’ve equated someone’s beliefs with idiocracy, changing that person’s mind will require nothing short of an admission that they are unintelligent. And that’s an admission that most minds aren’t willing to make.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #40)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:46 PM

58. For them, there are no new facts...

only old beliefs.

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Response to The_jackalope (Reply #40)

Sat May 4, 2019, 11:10 PM

128. It does if you practice rational skepticism

but the key word there is "practice." It's not a default state for the human animal. It has to be minded and cultivated.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:28 PM

45. Thanks to the power of right wing media

The few Trump supporters I know are intelligent, decent people who have a complete blind spot when it comes to Trump. They look at me like I'm a total idiot in denial when I tell them I'm a proud lifelong Democrat, have never voted Republican and never watch Fox News.

I just avoid bringing up politics with them. Even when they try to trigger me by bashing on Obama and Hillary. I'll change the subject to spprts, movies or the weather. And if they won't dtop it, I'll tell them "Listen I can't discuss politics calmly and end up becoming angry so let's don't. "

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:31 PM

46. I have nothing to do with tRumpsters & luckily I don't have to work around them. nt

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:40 PM

54. Ask them...

....whether ATC or NTSB don’t work.

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Response to Aviation Pro (Reply #54)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:42 PM

55. I would have to engage in order to do that. Not gonna happen.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:42 PM

56. The group of people Trump has lost

Are suburban women. I have Republican female friends who are disgusted by his behavior and character.... and his actions regarding the environment and family separation. He's not getting them back, they despise him.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:45 PM

57. It wouldn't even change if YOU were frogmarched to prision for your political

beliefs, the color of your skin or your religion. THEY WILL NOT CHANGE.

They are beyond help at this point.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:47 PM

59. These Republicans are the same kind of people who would have followed Jim Jones

It's the illusion of truth that they are enamored of, not truth itself.
So, Republican politicians can sell them on lies that get more and more outrageous, and they will still embrace them.
They want the lie to be the truth, and they would destroy the nation rather than admit they were wrong and take action to fix what they are busily breaking.
Ultimately they succumb to the poisoned Kool-aid they are being fed, with most of them never once questioning the moral depravity of their leaders.
In fact, they can't get enough of their lies.
It fulfills their needs.
So, in the end, they are just as depraved as their leaders.


Patrick Phillips

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:50 PM

60. Trouble is by the time they die out, I'll be dead by then as well.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #60)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:54 PM

165. From my experience...

when they do die out, another generation that they influenced will come along behind them, expressing the same views. Your mileage may vary.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 05:59 PM

62. It's not so jarring when they're among like-minded people

As long as these folks associate only with "god-fearing, patriotic Americans," "real people" who "tell it like it is" and don't believe in "political correctness," who practice "freedom of religion," but only from their version of the bible, who "would give you the shirt off their back" and "help a neighbor in need," but only if they "look and think" like them, and didn't "come over here illegally from one of them Mexican countries," they're fine. It's only when they're out of their bubble that it sounds like indoctrination.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:03 PM

64. I'd be curious to know whether they're fundamentalists Xians, Opus Dei-type Catholics & their ages.

It's a no brainer that they all listen to right wing radio and Fux Spews. I'm also interested to know how many of these have attended private religious-based schools, their parents did or they did, and whether they send their own kids to such schools, or they were homeschooled, or teach their kids in the home. Fundamentalists have been indoctrinated to the point that suspension of disbelief is their mindset, and if you're brainwashed to that point you are a nothing but a walking Manchurian. There's no hope.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:03 PM

65. +1

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:07 PM

67. I've noticed the first one with my stepfather a lot recently

Fox News regular constant viewer. He's always been about government ineptness (that goes back to Reagan) but I hear him make some mention of it every single time I'm around it.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:10 PM

68. Damn skippy.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:14 PM

72. You are correct. They are completely brainwashed. Then I ask myself, am I the brainwashed

one? By every metric, be it moral, political, and/or social Republicans are on the wrong side of the issues. Now I cannot fault someone who identifies as conservative for issues like abortion because of their religious indoctrination. But pro-lifers cannot justify their beliefs in limited government while also allowing government to dictate the most basic and personal decision a woman can make. I know many Republicans and many who are very wealthy and smart. The all posses certain undeniable traits. For the most part, the conservatives I know share the following qualities: they are hypocrites, racists, misogynistic, selfish, paranoid, greedy, narcissistic and uncharitable people. They profess to believe in God but act in the most ungodly ways. They are sociopaths. John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience” expertly explains conservatives, the group think “Dunning-Kruger” effect that helps explain conservative ideology.

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Response to Pepsidog (Reply #72)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:14 PM

110. Yes indeed

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:17 PM

74. if foxnews went off the air for just one week, what a difference it would make.

there's a reason these people watch it 24/7.

they're addicts, and they have all the traits of addiction, not the least of which is total denial and intense anger at any implication that they may have a problem.

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Response to unblock (Reply #74)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:08 PM

91. +5

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:20 PM

76. Confirmation Bias:

"the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories."

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:22 PM

77. We shall overcome

Watched the movie Milk last night and how he fought against the Christian right led by Anita Bryant. He triumphed over her and she eventually went down in flames. I'm sure Dan White would have been a Trumpian too. He was backed into a corner, losing his white heterosexual male privilege and couldn't cope.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:26 PM

78. Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the Christian right?

How were these otherwise intelligent people so thoroughly brainwashed?

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #78)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:23 PM

94. Add Alex Jones, Hannity etc.

To the list. People listen to this garbage daily thus brainwashing them.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:31 PM

79. You have my sympathies, having to work with these people!


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:35 PM

80. They're all brainwashed. "Without the 'Fox effect' neither Bush nor Trump could have won."

My mom watches Fox or listens to hate radio all her waking hours. She was always right-wing, but now lives in a fact free universe.

When the 2016 primary season began, she absolutely loathed that vile thing now occupying the White House... yet ended up attending his inauguration! The brainwashing overrides critical thinking, personal experiences and previous knowledge. Very effective and extremely dangerous.

https://www.vox.com/2019/3/4/18249847/fox-news-effect-swing-elections

Fox News’s propaganda isn’t just unethical — research shows it’s enormously influential
Without the “Fox effect,” neither Bush nor Trump could have won.


<<A study by Emory University political scientist Gregory Martin and Stanford economist Ali Yurukoglu estimates that watching Fox News translates into a significantly greater willingness to vote for Republican candidates. Specifically, by exploiting semi-random variation in Fox viewership driven by changes in the assignment of channel numbers, they find that if Fox News hadn’t existed, the Republican presidential candidate’s share of the two-party vote would have been 3.59 points lower in 2004 and 6.34 points lower in 2008. Without Fox, in other words, the GOP’s only popular vote win since the 1980s would have been reversed and the 2008 election would have been an extinction-level landslide.

And Fox is not the only thing out there. The Sinclair Broadcast Group is not a television network in a traditional sense. Instead, it’s a company that owns a disparate bunch of local television stations affiliated with all four major networks. But Sinclair does exert centralized control over the “local” television news broadcasts. And research from Martin and his colleague Josh McCrain found that when Sinclair buys a local station, its local news program begin to cover more national and less local politics, the coverage becomes more conservative, and viewership actually falls — suggesting that the rightward tilt isn’t enacted as a strategy to win more viewers but as part of a persuasion effort.

It would be ridiculous, of course, to argue that absent conservative propaganda broadcasting, Republicans would never win an election. What would happen, instead, is that in order to avoid constantly losing, Republicans would need to do more to bring key aspects of their policy agenda in line with public opinion and display less indifference to the prevalence of scandal-plagued individuals in party leadership. The conclusion, however, remains the same: Fox appears to be a decisive influence in making the Republican Party as currently constituted an electorally viable entity. And these studies are based on Fox's past — according to Mayer, the network has only become more propagandistic since the 2016 election....

...It’s commonplace, for example, to treat the contemporaneous and narrow electoral victories of Donald Trump and Brexit in the United States and United Kingdom as revealing some important, deep-seated truth about the nature of global capitalism. An alternative explanation, however, is that Rupert Murdoch is a very powerful person in both US and UK media and he intervened decisively to put the Trump and Brexit phenomena over the top.

If true, lancing the boil of this particular destructive form of nationalism requires less a broad rethinking of the foundations of politics and more specific focus and the ability of a handful of propagandists to decisively alter the course of events....>>

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:37 PM

81. Yet they don't question the motives or actions of corporations

Which are at the root of government corruption- not the "well paid", career govt. employees.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:48 PM

85. I didn't see race or hate mentioned here. They are not talked about in mixed company.

Those 2 factors are absolutely there and very obstinate.

[I do disagree about all 'cons. Stock market goes down, treason comes up - imo, half of the 'con vote is capable of changing].

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:56 PM

87. governance through the sympathetic magic of conservative ideology.

magical thinkers are just a different kind of junkie.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 06:57 PM

88. I hope we can make it to the other side, regarding rationality.

I am not so sure that we can.

We, humans, have so much potential for good - and for evil.

How will this all play out?

I am still hoping for the best - well, my idea of the best.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:05 PM

90. Fox TV est. 1996, Hate Radio since 1987 and this is the result

combined with more news outlets on the internet every few years.

Unless we turn a sharp corner soon, we'll be here critiquing the wrecked state of the country, the shootings and more in 10 years and 20 years just like Sandy Hook, et al.



- 'Radio Priest' Father Coughlin in Mich. during the 1930s Depression was a force for fascism and the father of Hate Radio.



- Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels spread poison using the radio in Germany, 1933-1945.

In 1939 when war started in Europe FDR, Joseph Kennedy Sr. & others took racist, pro-fascist Father Coughlin off the air.

In 1949, the Fairness Doctrine for broadcasting was established after the spread of Nazi propaganda in WWII via radio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1880786,00.html

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:11 PM

92. Another problem i see is

How many MORE followers will this crazy bastard get in the next year and a half if he's not stopped?

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:28 PM

95. I'd say your employer's screening needs work.

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Response to BobTheSubgenius (Reply #95)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:06 PM

160. Screen for political ideology?

 

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:33 PM

96. Yes, indeed.

I'm glad I retired before Trump was elected.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:34 PM

97. Sorry, you are quite wrong! No matter how many screenings, when they believe in obvious....

untruths, they ARE CRAZY! Please correct your post to reflect this fact.

Example: the sky is red, the oceans are yellow and Trump is a great president.

Care to debate?

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 07:54 PM

101. I was thinking it was brainwashing but also had an in-law who was in a union and hated

unions. I am now thinking it is a bunch of people who just hate following the rules and letting other people get an equal share. You know, nobody is as smart or good as me, so everybody else should get less than I do. If I were allowed, I would be a billionaire. Sound familiar?

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Response to demigoddess (Reply #101)

Sun May 5, 2019, 04:14 AM

139. Bingo

My brother was a union Rep. in a steel factory. Retired with a great pension. Now hates unions and loves trump!

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Response to samplegirl (Reply #139)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:11 PM

166. I can outdo that. this guy disliked being 'held back' by medicare. Searched for a doc he

could 'like' and the cancer spread and now he's dead. Sometimes you can be too republican for your own good.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:01 PM

102. "We have a big problem."

I still have hope that the majority will reject Republicans in the 2020 election. That is what I have been and will continue to focus on.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:02 PM

103. Gee, we must hang out in the same places!

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 08:13 PM

106. The ACA gave lots of new people insurance, but it indeed made many politicians filthy rich.

 

Last edited Sat May 4, 2019, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

And it didn't really slow down medical costs. My $325 per paycheck premium deduction and $9,000 deductible are proof enough of that. That's my biggest beef with the ACA. It didn't really address out of control medical costs at all, it just shifted who pays for them.

If we had actually addressed costs, such as with single payer, I do think there are conservatives that would have woken up to support Democratic fiscal approaches.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:04 PM

109. I have a customer who really thinks that HRC ..

... had somebody killed to hide Bill Clinton's cocaine drug ring. She has a degree in chemistry too.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:28 PM

111. "Nothing you say can change my mind"...

And they mean it!

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:33 PM

113. "the ACA slowed the runaway rise in medical costs."

My parents are Trumpers and believe what the Trumpers you know believe. But my parents aren't normal. Well, it's my 86 year old father and his 14 year younger wife. They are idiots and not nice people, when it comes to minorities, Muslims, people who get govt assistance, etc.

But I do take issue with your statement that the ACA slowed the runaway rise in medical costs for everyone. Maybe it did that for many or some, or maybe generally. I don't know. But MY medical costs more than doubled from 2013 to 2018, and my deductible skyrocketed fro $1,000 to $6,000 and back down to $4,500, making it a catastrophic policy only (except it's illegal for the ACA to sell catastrophic policies, so they didn't call it that). I LOSE health care in 2014, when the ACA went into effect. For most of 2014 to 2018, I couldn't find a doctor to take it.

This was not a really unusual thing to happen. There were many middle class and older Americans yelling about this. When no one paid attention, some of them voted for Trump. He was paying attention.

I don't approve of their votes. But just sayin'. The Democrats are still not addressing how the ACA affects many in the older, middle class category. Except now there it's not as critical, because the ACA has been modified to address their concerns. They still don't have good health coverage, but it's better for them. (As for me, I qualified for Medicare last year.)

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:41 PM

115. This hurts me so much

How can so many people be so wrong, not only in their brainwashed opinions, but their lack of ability to question anything, — a pizza joint, really??? And no one asks why would Hillary do something so nonsensical?

My high school Latin teacher always said that stupidity is willful ignorance. It is so true. And I am so sad.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:50 PM

116. I guess I am wasting my breath in trying to talk reason to them

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:52 PM

117. Propaganda Works

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:58 PM

118. Pure hate makes "smart" people stupid

They may be clever like a dog, but they're like rabid ones as well.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 09:59 PM

119. Thank you. And this is why our priority must be on reaching out to Democrats

and making sure they are registered and have proper ID -- not going after the mythical Obama/Trump voter. That person has moved to the dark side and isn't coming back. But if millions of votes hadn't been suppressed, due to the dismantling of the Voting Rights act ini 2013, Hillary would have won.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 10:27 PM

121. Thanks for this inside observation; obviously they don't ask questions

to weed our racists in you line of work.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 11:36 PM

129. as an extension, I bet they believe

 

Joe Biden would be just more of the same

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sat May 4, 2019, 11:48 PM

130. This is what keeps me up at night.....nt

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 12:33 AM

134. Why are we coddling misguided people? If they want to live in an illusion...Go Ahead

The rest of us are moving on. There are none so blind that will not see. It's stood the test of time bc it's true.
Laws are written down so people can remember what's required of them NOT to break them. Their acceptance isn't required for normal people to find the presidents behavior reprehensible and objectionable, and in violation of laws.
They don't get to go to the front of the 'ideology line' bc they have deluded themselves in a system that seems to be working for them. The rest of us who have to live in reality will take it from here thanks. Personally I'm done putting myself in a position of having to convince anybody. Or even debate the nonsense. The flat earthers of american politics.
We outnumber these people. NOT talking about politics is a great idea, bc, past the politics we are so much alike in so many ways. It's unfortunate. We have to move on. imho.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:35 AM

135. Small point....I think they ARE crazy.

Our fellow Americans are brainwashed. They are delusional, and their basic reasoning and logic have been disengaged.
I tend to think they ARE crazy. They may be highly trained, intelligent in many ways; but they are not functioning as rational, logical human beings who are driven by simple FACTS and reasoning.
We are a very, very sick nation at present. I’m not at all sure we can be cured, and certainly not in my life time.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:40 AM

136. .

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 02:00 AM

137. It's all based on bigotry.

1. Government doesn’t work - Big government (i.e. a functioning government) equals socialism.

Socialism, communism, Nazis, foreigners are all pretty much the same thing to them, and it is all very frightening.

Also, government provides too much for people who are poorer or darker in skin color than they are.

2. Obama and anyone named Clinton are proven criminals - Obama is a black guy so any criticism that was leveled at him doesn't apply to Trump and Republicans, for example government borrowing. It's bad when it happens with the black guy, bad okay when the orange guy does it.

Bill Clinton is highly talented, is intelligent, and has charisma, so of course they hate him. He doesn't talk like a dumbass like W. or Trump, and he's one of those socialists.

Hillary Clinton's biggest crime to them is that she is a woman. Bigots don't want a woman as president, especially a socialist. They were too ready to believe all the crap about emails, Benghazi and Pizzagate. Compare that to their unwillingness to believe anything bad about Trump.

Every single one of their beliefs is rooted in bigotry, This is my experience having marries into a Republican family with nearly all Republican friends.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:08 AM

142. I've learned something important as well.

There are people in this world who have problems thinking about complex things.
They lack the ability to absorb new information, and adjust their internal dialogue in response to that new information.

Their solution?
Make a decision on a complex topic, and stick to it. How you get to that decision, whether it is sourced from reality, is not important, once the decision is made, it is carved in stone, and not deviated from.
New information is rejected as being confusing, or not relevant.

Trump is the best thing ever for the USA, MAGA, respects minorities and women. He said so, Hannity agrees, must be so.
He talks about grabbing women by the privates? Not relevant, he respects women.
He locks up little brown children? Not relevant, he respects minorities.
He is destroying the health system? Not relevant, he has bigly MAGA plans for better.

The basic decision regarding opinion and attitude cannot be challenged by any fact, nor any discussion based on logic.

Any intelligent person would find this strange, very strange indeed. But remember these people are only functional on a social level because they are able to reduce the complex down to simple, hardwired attitudes, and run their lives on those.

It would be best if the intelligent people of the world could help these unfortunates enter, or stay, in an environment where they are functional, be it in manual jobs, or simply live in environments where they only meet like minded (non-minded?) people.

Unfortunately, the biggest non-thinker ever, the maker of many hard rules out of thin air, is sitting in the Oval Office pretending to be a functional, rational, responsible adult.
It gives the masses of non-thinkers out there the courage to act out. Resentful, vindictive, revenge driven, anti-social behavior is on the rise, and will continue to rise while King tRump is on the throne.



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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 06:27 AM

143. We are forced to pick the lesser of two evils...

 

and that is very sad. Where I drew the line as a life long Republican from a VERY REPUBLICAN family began about the time the right co-opted Christianity & subsequent vilification of the left moving into policy of social, political, & income inequality. Add on the blatant disregard of our environment. Then let's move on to the creation of this administration; because it was most certainly "created" vs democratically elected.

Anyone who does not see the glaring differences between parties has been lulled into believing everyone is seeing the same thing; but through different lenses.

I see a glaring difference.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 07:30 AM

147. That is one thing that got me out of flying...

The culture here in the US. Macho, republican. Even in General Aviation.

Very different in Europe...

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 08:35 AM

148. Something I've noticed repeatedly that pushes their buttons:

The perceived notion of somebody getting something from the government for nothing. Rebranded as "entitlements", they seed to eliminate, or greatly diminish, our social safety net. They truly believe they are paying for perfectly capable folks to sit around and do nothing, and it drives them bat-shit crazy.
My response is consistent - just because bad people use the system doesn't mean the system is bad. Let's increase the oversight instead, but know ahead of time that there is a point at which the oversight costs more than it saves. Unfortunate but true.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 08:46 AM

149. Not for nothing, but this has been the case for a L O N G time

they were lost well before he came down the escalator.

He just took the whip from the republican party like Daenerys did to the slavers in GOT.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 08:57 AM

150. Brainwashed Republicans

I agree that these witless people are a problem but I don't think it is getting worse. The roots of these people come from the racist, xenophopic, homophobes that make up 25% of the American population. Those too, are Trump's base. They have always been here and always will be here. They are incapable of thinking critically and it leads me to wonder if they can actually function in an emergency situation that requires fact based action.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:47 AM

153. I maintain the best intervention includes passage of a rewritten Fairness Doctrine

Daunting task, as so much misinformation has been created to suit some polluting or insanely greedy corporate profits.
But it must be done to create a more equitable and non-toxic world for our progeny.
It starts by saying... (excuse the Obama ripoff slogan) Yes we can! restore FACTS with a accredited multi-university effort.
Once news media can only report an accredited set of facts as news, otherwise must be labelled "opinion",
We're well on the way to healing this gaping wound.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 10:51 AM

155. This is the result of

over 25 years of Rush & RW radio and FAUX News. People's view of reality has been skewed.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 11:27 AM

157. True.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:05 PM

159. I concur: " stop the godless socialism lover at any cost"

“ the regular Republicans didn’t do it Trump is”

They don’t worry about the cost. Like a crazy coach that has you headed to the championship game....

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:14 PM

161. How I turned out differently

Thank you for your important post. I've been thinking about it since I read it yesterday.

My two cents:

1) Re."Govt doesn't work" I worked as a seasonal taxpayer service rep for the IRS during the mid-70s, helping regular people file their taxes. I realized then that We are the Government. We pay for our govt, we use our govt's services, and we have a voice in our govt. It's OURS. Now I live in a small rural town, and for six years served as an elected town board supervisor. Our local government is accessible to every townsperson, and they call us and attend town board meetings. Our budgets are fully transparent and we can account for every dollar. If there is any problem, believe me, we hear about it.
Also, studying our Constitution in Civics class gave me the lifelong sense that it is OUR Constitution and belongs to us.

2) Brainwashing works. Repetition of an idea, even a wildly silly one, gets implanted in a person's brain. After that, facts do not matter. Plus, it's almost impossible to prove a negative. People I know who watch Fox TV, listen to hate radio, or spend time on FB have been brainwashed. I do not know how to undo brainwashing.

I agree that we have a big problem and that it's getting worse.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 01:38 PM

162. The Ditching Of The Fairness Doctrine Led To Where We Are Now

It has rewired the brains of faithful viewers.

Had that not occurred we would not be where we now are. There have always been Crazy right wing radio talkers like Joe Pyne, but that wasn’t enough to reach the critical mass we find ourselves in now.

This is a fight for the Soul of our Nation. 2020 may be our last chance to stop the slide into an Autocracy. As talked about on MSNBC this weekend whoever we nominate better win decisively, we must keep he House and hopefully maybe retake the Senate......even then that Orange would be dumb Dictator may not leave, at least not peacefully.

This is a five alarm emergency.

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2019, 03:15 PM

163. I don't care how bright one thinks they might be...

they are all lost in a Fox News world. Trump cult followers. Reality is beyond these losts people!

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Response to mn9driver (Original post)

Wed May 8, 2019, 12:15 PM

167. Talk radio, Fox News, Breitbart and InfoWars have done their evil work...

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