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Beschloss tweet; King George VI implores Churchill to NOT join the forces in Overlord (Original Post) Dennis Donovan Jun 2019 OP
This is an amazing piece of history FakeNoose Jun 2019 #1
Band of Brothers on Memorial Day and Saving Private Ryan on D-Day... hlthe2b Jun 2019 #3
Unsurprisingly the First Lord of The Admiralty and a War vet would want to go. irisblue Jun 2019 #2
It reminds me of TR wanting to fight in WW1... Dennis Donovan Jun 2019 #4
The military service to our beloved country, across all the Family branches irisblue Jun 2019 #5
And Truman's determined manipulations and deceptions Hortensis Jun 2019 #6
FDR's son Elliot was classified 4-F due to poor eyesight... Johnyawl Jun 2019 #10
I will look up Carlson's Raiders. I didn't know all that Hortensis Jun 2019 #13
John Kerry and Max Cleland Johnyawl Jun 2019 #17
Heroic Max Cleland! Yes. Btw, he endorsed VP Biden, Hortensis Jun 2019 #19
I have read from multiple sources that Elliott Boomerproud Jun 2019 #18
I couldn't find anything about that on google... Johnyawl Jun 2019 #21
As a war vet myself, I couldn't stand to not be there Victor_c3 Jun 2019 #8
Churchill Wasn't a Coward Roy Rolling Jun 2019 #7
He will lead the 82d Airborne over Iran. Marcuse Jun 2019 #11
Let's not overlook his disastrous role in WWI AJT Jun 2019 #9
Churchill was apoplectic over the delays in landing troops ... eppur_se_muova Jun 2019 #14
It was not his idea or plan... Johnyawl Jun 2019 #15
Only if it's shared with the decisionmakers in the War Office and Hortensis Jun 2019 #16
He's renowned for his leadership in WW2, but his career otherwise was very mixed. cab67 Jun 2019 #20
Churchill was no coward, true... Wounded Bear Jun 2019 #12
The anecdote I have often read is.... MicaelS Jun 2019 #22
Initially, the King wanted to go himself. Byronic Jun 2019 #23

FakeNoose

(32,356 posts)
1. This is an amazing piece of history
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 08:55 AM
Jun 2019

Thanks for posting, and thanks to Michael Beschloss for all of his enlightening and interesting info. I try to memorialize D-Day by watching the movie "Saving Private Ryan" every year on June 6th. Another good one is "The Longest Day" which I also watch from time to time. It's my way of avoiding bone spurs.

hlthe2b

(101,730 posts)
3. Band of Brothers on Memorial Day and Saving Private Ryan on D-Day...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:01 AM
Jun 2019

I had uncles too who served in Pacific theater and do, on occasion re-watch Band of Brother's companion series, The Pacific.

I'm not a tremendous war movie buff, but I just feel like we should not forget. Schindler's List is one I have much more difficulty re-watching. Just the theme music makes me cry...

Dennis Donovan

(18,770 posts)
4. It reminds me of TR wanting to fight in WW1...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:09 AM
Jun 2019

...but, due to his adversarial relationship with Wilson, he was denied.

However, as TR was a proponent of US involvement in the war, I wonder if he re-thought his position when his youngest son, Quentin, was killed in an aerial battle over France on July 14, 1918. It crushed TR, and hastened his own death less than 6 months later. Sons TR Jr, Kermit and Archie were also wounded in the war.

irisblue

(32,829 posts)
5. The military service to our beloved country, across all the Family branches
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:20 AM
Jun 2019

Into all the Service Branches is remarkable.

The ApricotHellbeast and his familys' lack of military service should sting more in MAGAville.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
6. And Truman's determined manipulations and deceptions
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:21 AM
Jun 2019

to get himself accepted into the military in spite of terrible eyesight, although that was long before he became president. I read that when he was sent to Europe as an artillery captain (?) he took something like a dozen pair of eyeglasses with him as spares.

I have to doubt TR's son's death caused him to "re-" think such an enormous decision. That would have made him a very unthinking, and perhaps dreadfully callous, sort of person, the kind who can only understand and care about what happens to him. And he did turn out to be right that neutrality would fail.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
10. FDR's son Elliot was classified 4-F due to poor eyesight...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:12 AM
Jun 2019

...Elliott petitioned and signed a waiver for his disability, which allowed him to receive a commission in the Army Air Force, (he was an experienced private pilot and photographer). He became commander of the 325th Photographic Reconnaissance Wing who's operations played an important role in the D-Day invasion of Normandy, June 6, 1944 and later for the Battle of the Bulge in 1945. Elliott Roosevelt flew over 300 combat missions (in mostly unarmed reconnaissance aircraft), was wounded twice and received the Distinguished Flying Cross. He is credited with pioneering new techniques in night photography and weather data gathering.

All four of FDR's sons served in combat during WWII, the oldest as the XO of Carlson's Raiders during the battle of Guadalcanal. (If you don't know who Carlson's Raiders are, look them up and be prepared to be impressed.)

Fuck Cadet Bone Spurs and his useless sons.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
13. I will look up Carlson's Raiders. I didn't know all that
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:23 AM
Jun 2019

about Elliott Roosevelt. How ironic that with vision disability he contributed to the gathering of a great deal of visual information.

And so agree with that last. Also deserter George W. Bush and the millions who cheer the swiftboating of John Kerry and other genuine heroes for political reasons.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
17. John Kerry and Max Cleland
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:49 AM
Jun 2019

In the '70s and '80s I identified as a "moderate independent", and voted for both Democrats and Republicans. The evangelicals and radical republicans (Newt Gingrich) made a Democrat out of me in the '90s. But what they did to Max Cleland in 2002 and John Kerry in 2004 created in me a burning, white hot hatred of republicans. Even now, old and infirm that I am, I don't know that I could resist beating Karl Rove into a bloody pulp if I was to ever meet him.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
19. Heroic Max Cleland! Yes. Btw, he endorsed VP Biden,
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 11:05 AM
Jun 2019

who's coming to Atlanta today for events tomorrow. I haven't read that Senator Cleland will be out, but he still pops up in the news occasionally.

Democratic Party of Georgia
October 11, 2018

Join Max Cleland and demand that Brian Kemp resign now. Sign our petition: https://www.change.org/p/secretary-of-state-brian-kemp-dema

"When I decided to run for higher office, I stepped down from my position as Secretary of State because I recognized that it would not be fair to Georgia voters if I oversaw an election in which I was a candidate for higher office. It is time for Brian Kemp to do the same. From his purging of 1.4 million voters, to the closure of 214 polling locations on his watch, and now, the 53,000 mostly African-American voters whose registrations hang in limbo, Brian Kemp has shown that he is willing to subvert democracy in order to win an election. He must immediately resign his position and Governor Deal must designate a competent bureaucrat who will protect every eligible Georgian’s right to vote."

--Former U.S. Senator and Georgia Secretary of State Max Cleland


The same for Rove and Gingrich. Absolutely. They should both be finishing up long prison terms.

Boomerproud

(7,889 posts)
18. I have read from multiple sources that Elliott
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:51 AM
Jun 2019

was in the plane following Joe Kennedy Jr. when it exploded.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
21. I couldn't find anything about that on google...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 02:53 PM
Jun 2019

...but then my google skills are pretty rudimentary.

The story rings true given the mission Kennedy was on, and the need of that mission for an intelligence officer with ace aero reconnaissance skills.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
8. As a war vet myself, I couldn't stand to not be there
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:30 AM
Jun 2019

A leader owes it to their men to endure the same hardships he orders them to endure. This says a lot about his character.

AJT

(5,240 posts)
9. Let's not overlook his disastrous role in WWI
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 09:37 AM
Jun 2019

"The price to be paid in taking Gallipoli would no doubt be heavy,” he wrote, “but there would be no more war with Turkey. A good army of 50,000 and sea-power—that is the end of the Turkish menace"
Winston Churchill

eppur_se_muova

(36,227 posts)
14. Churchill was apoplectic over the delays in landing troops ...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:29 AM
Jun 2019

The Turks had days to dig in and set up strong defenses while the Allied landings were postponed. Allies finally landed in the obviously intended location, with no element of surprise whatever. Lots of blame to go around.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
15. It was not his idea or plan...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:31 AM
Jun 2019

...but as First Lord of the Admiralty he embraced it and promoted it. And the stench from that debacle followed him throughout his life.

But here's what I admire about the man. Gallipoli was such a disaster that it brought down the government, and the new government demoted Churchill. He resigned in November 1915 and headed to the front lines in France as an infantry officer with the Royal Scots Fusiliers. He would serve in that capacity for 2 years.

I saw the movie "Gallipoli" when it came out in '81. I don't think I'll ever be able to watch it again.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. Only if it's shared with the decisionmakers in the War Office and
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:34 AM
Jun 2019

the commanders of the land and sea battles. Churchill argued for opening a second front and owns his mistakes, but he wasn't personally responsible for all the failures in its prosecution.

cab67

(2,963 posts)
20. He's renowned for his leadership in WW2, but his career otherwise was very mixed.
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 01:18 PM
Jun 2019

He was an unrepentant imperialist who opposed independence for India.

The reason his warnings about Hitler went unheeded was because he'd been wrong so many times before.

Wounded Bear

(58,440 posts)
12. Churchill was no coward, true...
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 10:22 AM
Jun 2019

but he was also someone who understood the value of a photo-op, before there was such a term.

The time for leaders to "lead from the front" disappeared in the mid-19th century. The morale value of a general riding his horse along the line got out-weighed by the need to keep the "best and brightest" from getting killed off while grandstanding. Churchill went ashore in Normandy, on Jun 12th, after the Germans had been pushed inland several miles and the danger to him personally was pretty minor.

Churchill did spend much of his tenure as PM travelling around the world, visiting Roosevelt in Wash DC, but also visiting the troops in the various theaters. It was good for morale and such, but he often left the day-to-day running of he civilian government to others throughout the war. Churchill was a great leader and orator, to be sure, but his strategic skills were kind of questionable overall.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
22. The anecdote I have often read is....
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:04 PM
Jun 2019

Churchill wanted to go. The King said if Churchill can go, it is safe enough for me to go. Churchill backed down.

Byronic

(504 posts)
23. Initially, the King wanted to go himself.
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 03:10 PM
Jun 2019

As he explains in his letter.

He had served in the First World War and fought at the Buttle of Jutland.

Churchill had extensive military experience, of course, seeing action in the Sudan, the trenches of the Western Front, Cuba, and being a POW in South Africa.

Piers Morgan bought Trump a Winston Churchill hat, which he put on for a UK breakfast TV advert. Trump and Churchill. it isn't difficult to tell the two men apart.

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