General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe F-35 is a piece of shit,
Well after 18 years of testing the Pentagon is supposed to give the ok to mass produce F-35's even though it has a few issues.
It can only fly at supersonic speed for less than 1 minute or the paint burns off or maybe even the tail. They are looking for different paint to fix the problem.
It also has an issue if it goes into a steep climb, it can spiral out of control, new software is supposed to fix that issue.
The acting Secretary of Defense is not too happy with the plane but hey, they are getting ready to mass produce them.
Oh and the many F-35's that have already been made and even the ones sold to foreign governments are going to cost big bucks to fix.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/america-is-stuck-with-a-dollar400-billion-stealth-fighter-that-cant-fight?ref=home
TexasProgresive
(12,148 posts)I think he called himself undergroundcamper, but I am old and forget stuff.
watoos
(7,142 posts)because it's going to cost big bucks to fix the planes that were already built.
JHB
(37,128 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,148 posts)One voice I always respected around here.
Gumboot
(531 posts)Vastly better plane, at a fraction of the price.
But the only mission of the F-35 was to deliver $Billions to Lockheed Martin's offshore bank accounts... so it's been a huge success in those terms.
Ford_Prefect
(7,817 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine, canarddelta wing, multirole fighter.[6][7] The Typhoon was designed originally as an air superiority fighter[8] and is manufactured by a consortium of Airbus, BAE Systems and Leonardo that conducts the majority of the project through a joint holding company, Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH formed in 1986. NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency manages the project and is the prime customer.[9]..
--- The Eurofighter Typhoon is a highly agile aircraft, designed to be a supremely effective dogfighter in combat.[10] Later production aircraft have been increasingly better equipped to undertake air-to-surface strike missions and to be compatible with an increasing number of different armaments and equipment, including Storm Shadow and the RAF's Brimstone. The Typhoon had its combat debut during the 2011 military intervention in Libya with the UK's Royal Air Force and the Italian Air Force, performing aerial reconnaissance and ground-strike missions. The type has also taken primary responsibility for air-defence duties for the majority of customer nations...
Stealthy surveillance and sneaky bombing shit is a completely different and profoundly dishonorable mission.
machoneman
(3,951 posts)Great fighter, for sure.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Refers to air-to-air + air-to-ground I guess.
sop
(9,945 posts)Years ago it was social security; no politician could broach the subject of cuts to this program and expect to stay alive politically. No politician today, left or right, can even mention cutting our corrupt, bloated defense budget.
NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)Congress had a huge amount of difficulty cutting a SECOND engine for the F-35 that the Pentagon said was unnecessary. So, even cutting something that the Pentagon said was not needed was like pulling teeth.
Defense is a big job supporter in several parts of the country. The interesting thing is that we could have a far stronger country without that spending.
How many great empires have been defeated from the start by an outside foe? Typically an outside foe fonishes off what began internally.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)But Carthage, heir to Phoenicia and Egypt, was a purely commercial empire/culture, with almost no army to speak of (just police), until the Roman thing emerged...
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Societies start to fail and never come back when their citizens start fighting each other or the government in large numbers. If we keep ignoring growing social inequity, we are going to reach the point where people have nothing to lose by going into chaos.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)nothing like on the scale we see in the USA (and spreading) today.
safeinOhio
(32,527 posts)warranty.
watoos
(7,142 posts)I just bought a second car, made sure it was made in America, it is used and had some issues, hopefully it doesn't turn into an F-35, picking it up right now. Keep track of Trump for me while I'm gone.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)It caught on fire within the first week.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Your friend is lucky.
I could NEVER get that darn heater to work.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I took a trip with him in the early spring once. He had just disconnected the heating ducts. We were up around 9,000' elevation in freezing weather and no heat.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,282 posts)My "defroster" was a scraper, operated by driving with one arm out the window.
The passenger could just watch the "white screen".
Try that "arm out the window scraper" trick in an F-35. I don't think the side windows roll down.
NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)of the manufacturers to continue the raking in the revenues.
mopinko
(69,804 posts)"the pentagon wars" is a based-on-a-true-story movie about the abrams tank.
besides being an infuriating waste of money, the whole system that is set up to make sure this shit doesnt happen ends up just being the scaffolding on which all this happens.
funny but frightening.
TheBlackAdder
(28,070 posts)Aristus
(66,075 posts)It was supposed to be an armored personnel carrier with infantry fighting capabilities like the Soviet BMP. But they kept hanging so many bells and whistles on it that it eventually became a bloated, expensive monster that could neither carry large numbers of troops, nor fight effectively against tanks.
The M1 Abrams, on the other hand, exceeded both its design capabilities and the expectations of Pentagon weapons procurement officers with its performance in The Gulf in 1991. I can testify to that personally, since I crewed the M1 in the Gulf at that time. The M1, in its initial stages, was also tagged with the 'gold-plated weapon' epithet, only to emerge from the Gulf War covered with glory for how it operated in the harsh desert environment, and for its record against Soviet-made Iraqi tanks.
mopinko
(69,804 posts)mopinko
(69,804 posts)Aristus
(66,075 posts)We were drawn from the European-based units and sent to the Gulf not long before the ground war started. We were out in the filed on a desert training exercise when the ground war began, and it was over by the time we got back to base.
In our time in the field, I got to see the M1 vastly exceed its design tolerances for the air-intake filters of the turbine engine. (the sand in the desert was not granular, it was fine and powdery, very bad for air filters.)
hunter
(38,264 posts)If you don't have any manned aircraft in the sky you can simply blast everything down using unmanned aircraft and missiles that are capable of surviving g-forces that would kill a human.
Carrying a fragile human severely limits the performance of an aircraft.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But for those that are on our tier, they are effectively useless.
hunter
(38,264 posts)Okay, how are you going to tell that to the Top Guns? I'm certain they are listening...
For less sophisticated enemies, in a battle of basic meat pilot skills, you may as well use a BAE Systems Hawk or something similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Hawk
Or hell, an A-10 warthog.
21st century technology aircraft can do things that would not be survivable by a human pilot. Human pilots would be crushed like bugs. The answer to this problem is to eliminate the fragile human pilot.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But even a plane that is unmanned is vulnerable to electro-magnetic pulses that fry everything within it.
edhopper
(33,182 posts)are these suppose to fight in, and with who?
A HERETIC I AM
(24,317 posts)The point of these aircraft isn't to fight. The point of these aircraft is to send cubic money to Lockheed.
Rollo
(2,559 posts)It's the modified Navy and Marine Corps B and C versions that have the worst problems. The problems seem to be related to the mods needed to allow for carrier use and hover flight.
And these problems might be resolved with flight software upgrades (737 Max, anyone?) and different stealth paint. Maybe.
A huge problem was to approve production before these problems were resolved. Retrofitting some 400 jets will be very costly.
Penny wise and pound foolish.
hunter
(38,264 posts)They're just trying to let their jocks down easy.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)an F-16 pilot, but as a family decision he decided to take retirement (He was a Colonel) and become a commercial Delta pilot instead. I think he was pretty bummed out that he wasn't going to be flying the jet, but I for one am hugely relieved.
I would always say to him, "I heard there are a lot of problems with that jet and it's a hugely expensive, ineffective piece of junk. What is your opinion about what is being said about it?" He never went into things in too much detail, but he would just say that it was all rumor and that the plane was fine and flew with no problems. I am still not so sure if I believe him. I'm just glad he's not going to be up in one again.
msongs
(67,193 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)I do know the pilots think highly of it.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)I was not aware of that. So, F-35's have like, shot down enemy fighters that were trying to shoot them down?
Where was this? Not being snarky just don't recall reading about the US being in any aerial dogfights recently.
hack89
(39,171 posts)They have been flying attack and ISR missions. Turns out their stealth and outstanding sensors make them excellent spy platforms.
The Marines have been conducting strike missions in Afghanistan.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Syria, even with Russia helping is not Russia proper or China.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)When the Russians flew for the Chinese.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)until our public lost stomach for a fight. This is how I see all wars going absent us fighting a monumental monster like nazism.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The takedown of Iraq in 2003 was a feat unparalleled in military history. Taking down an entire country with three divisions and in such a short time is a feat no other military in the world can duplicate.
The occupation is an another story - there never was a military solution to Iraq.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Unless we are willing to wipe a nation or region of people off the face of the earth, then we must be careful about getting into conflict, especially if we don't have most of the world behind us.
Unless we are willing to comitt war crimes, we can overrun most countries in a matter of months, then the killing of our troops starts, as post 2003 Iraq and the earlier Afghanistan war clearly showed, that coming after the bloody debacle of Vietnam, where we were vastly superior to our foe. That trade off is not acceptable to me, regardless of how much some people thump their chests about our "superior" weapons.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Especially Vietnam Nam. And we have inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy.
Still wasted deaths because there was no military solution.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I don't care how expensive our weapons are or how effective they are, unless we just lay waste to an adversary and walk away, then we are going to be in a situation were our troops are physically exposed.
Yes, we had fewer deaths in Middleeast wars, but think of how many people now have grievous lifelong body and brain injuries, those people would have been dead from their injuries in previous wars. So saying that we had 3,200 dead without accounting for the tens of thousands of troops that are complete invalids now is meaningless. I remember as a tiny child my mom reading the newspaper accounts of the Pentagon reported "body counts" of enemy dead. Yes, our troops killed a lot of VietCong, but we lost 50,000 plus troops. A similar dynamic is playing out in the Middleeast, our troops kill a lot of people, but those people just keep coming and at some point, we give up and leave. Why not spend more time sitting down to try to talk through our issues with adversaries instead of getting a war hardon, like what is happening now with Iran.
Weapon systems like the F35 are outdated. Their utility is good for only maybe 2% of a war, unless we are willing to wipe people off the face of the earth, then they become enormously effective, but if we do that, what were we fighting for?
Spend the money wasted on the F35 for better healthcare, better schools and more teachers that are paid right. The shorterm economic benefits and the long term societal benefits of spending the money on soft defense (healthy, educated people) will be far greater than us prancing around telling people that we can slap them with our big dick of an overpriced and marginally effective warplane.
lpbk2713
(42,696 posts)That's the whole point.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Until...
Brother Buzz
(36,212 posts)so how would we know if the paint burns off?
KG
(28,749 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,643 posts)Send a kid to college for that kind of money.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Excellent messaging.
Kid Berwyn
(14,643 posts)Chinas agents grabbed all they could from the public record of the F-35 a state-of-the-art stealth fighter jet designed, developed, built and paid for by trillions of our tax dollars to make the Shenyang FC-31. Looks and may act like an F-35, but likely costs a lot less to operate. That number is classified.
$1.2 trillion for 81 planes.
https://time.com/5575608/lockheed-martin-f-35-jet-cost/
Thats almost enough to pay for universal basic income of $1,000 per month instead.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)maxsolomon
(32,975 posts)We don't NEED these planes. We WANT them.
We NEED to cut the DoD by 1/3.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)... in a digital world were influence can be turned by just flipping switches on elections
Hotler
(11,353 posts)The things rattles, paint starting to fade, likes to flame out at stop lights sometimes. Still hauls ass though. I got GPS the other day and what a world of difference that makes.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I find this hilarious in its idiocy. New paint is going to fix the problem of the tail burning off?!?!?! Maybe they will stick some bandaids on the tail, you know those new "supersonic" bandaids?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)more heat tolerate composite. It is like those designers learned nothing from the materials that are used on the nose cones of missiles or the materials used in high energy research applications. We are supposed to have a capable military research arm, why do military leaders allow a contractor to lead them around by the nose?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)with sensible goals good for most everyone, aka socialism.
shanny
(6,709 posts)The flying Swiss army knife* shoulda been axed Long Ago...if we had anything like a sane appropriations process, or a government that had ANY control over the MIC.
* Charles Pierce
Calculating
(2,954 posts)No reason on Earth why we should spend more than the next 10 countries combined. Who are we so afraid of? I thought we have nukes and MAD to avoid conflict with other major world powers.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)What a gigantic mistake that plane is turning out to be. Thank stars for the quiet workhorses, the F18 and F22.
blugbox
(951 posts)Our military has had air superiority since what? WWI? We've always been able to make competent planes, always breaking ground in new technology... and we've been at it for decades.
Why are we suddenly having so much trouble with a fighter? All these weapons contractors have needed a reason to exist for too long I guess.
Comically sad when you stop and combine this with the news of how they over price every component by orders of magnitude... Such a colossal waste. Makes you wonder how great America could truly be if we spent our resources wisely.
Baclava
(12,047 posts)In my interviews with F-35 pilots, one word repeatedly came up: survivability. Surviving the Lockheed Martin F-35s primary missionto penetrate sophisticated enemy air defenses and find and disable threatsrequires what the fifth-generation jet offers: stealth and a stunning array of passive and active sensors bringing information to the pilot. The F-35 can see trouble comingahead, behind, or below the aircraftfar enough in advance to avoid a threat or kill it. Faced with multiple threats, the sensor suite recommends the order in which they should be dispatched.
U.S. forces first took these capabilities into combat last September, when Marine F-35Bs struck the Taliban in Afghanistan (five months after its combat debut with the Israeli air force). More than 360 of the multi-service aircraftAir Force F-35As, Marine short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing Bs, and carrier-capable Cshave been delivered to 16 U.S. airbases and to seven other countries. Reaching these milestones has not been easy. The programs difficulties and its cost$406 billion for development and acquisitionhave been widely reported. But now the F-35 is in the hands of the best judges of its performance, its pilots. I asked eight of themtest pilots who contributed to the jets development as well as active-duty pilotsabout their experiences
https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/f-35-faces-most-critical-test-180971734/
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)as attacking the Chinese or Russian mainland. Do even think that Russia gives Syria it's best systems or that China does not already have gobs of information on the F35's technology? Hell, US companies literally walked in and gave China everything it needs, to save on paying living wages here in the USA.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)That is the question (to quote Shakespeare).
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The one and only place that those are found are around national borders. Ships and subs have some of that capability but not to the extent national border defenses have.
Honestly. I think low tech can work wonders against high tech. If China wants to destroy us, they have plenty of ways to do that, without spending billions per aircraft or millions per missile.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)But neither China nor Russia nor Europe nor anyone else wants to "destroy" you! We all just want to do (preferably honest, mutually-beneficial) business with you!
Why is the USA so aggressive? (Apart from your economy being based on your MIC, obviously?)
There's something deeper...
... The documentary "Bowling For Columbine", a cartoon section within, comes to mind... But there must be more... some idea of "Chosen People", "Superior Race", "Chosen by God" comes to mind. Maybe as a Brit I understand, some. But we're supposed to have grown out of such childishness, as the Spanish have done.
It's collective mental illness (that, thankfully, doesn't completely affect everyone here at DU).
Initech
(99,909 posts)I mean this administration can't be that incompetent, can they? Oh, wait, of course they can!
dalton99a
(81,065 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Did they not research it? Jeez.
keithbvadu2
(36,360 posts)The planning for the manufacture of the F-35 was ingenious.
They spread the jobs around many, many Congressional districts.
KentuckyWoman
(6,666 posts)Jobs for Texas. Woohoo!!!
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)There is no excuse for these types of problems to exist after 18 years of design development.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)democratisphere
(17,235 posts)What a half assed world we have created. Boeing with the MAX and now Lockheed-Martin with this sh't. Not only will we have commercial passenger airliners falling out of the sky, fighter jets will be next. America is a mess in so many ways.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)it's likely this is another republican ploy to weaken American security
DeminPennswoods
(15,246 posts)Manufacturers always overstate the capabilities of the system and downplay problems or potential problems. The reason these systems are so expensive is that the initial planned purchase ends up being much lower than originally planned, thus causing the program cost to be divided by a smaller number of units and the individual system cost to be much higher than originally estimated.
I'm not surprised that the Navy/Marine versions are having problems. These planes basically crash land on carrier decks and are catapulted off the deck. They require a much heavier duty landing gear than AF planes which land on normal airstrips. Navy/Marine aircraft also operate in saltwater environment that can cause significant damage to the aircraft.
Generally trying to develop one aircraft for the AF and Navy/Marines doesn't work out because of the differences in operational environment. The F-111 is a good example. It was supposed to be used by both the AF and Navy/Marines but evolved int the AF F-111 and Navy F-14, two planes that didn't end up having much in common except their swing wing design.
moondust
(19,917 posts)An expert said it's possible to embed technology such as a chip without a customer's knowledge that could change how it functions.
A Chinese-owned company is making circuit boards for the top-secret next generation F-35 warplanes flown by Britain and the United States, Sky News can reveal.
~
http://news.sky.com/story/f-35-jets-chinese-owned-company-making-parts-for-top-secret-uk-us-fighters-11741889
What could possibly go wrong?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)We, the undersigned families and individuals, live in Winooski and many of us have at least one young child in our homes. We are writing to urge you to reconsider your support for basing the F-35s at the Burlington International Airport.
THIS IS A SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUE.
You have dedicated your career to social justice issues and assert that you represent the common person, rather than the wealthy elite. Your website states that your presidential aspiration is to achieve economic, racial, social and environmental justice for all. Please demonstrate your commitment to that goal.
You advocated for the F-35 jets to be based at the Burlington International Airport and they are on target to arrive this fall. With the slated arrival of the F-35s came a new noise exposure map that was publicly released at the end of May that incorporates the anticipated increase in noise due to the F-35 jets. According to the recently released map, the total number of dwelling units exposed to average noise levels of more than 65 decibels will rise from 819 in 2015 to an estimated 2,640 in 2023, with the total population affected rising from 1,900 in 2015 to 6,125 in 2023. The federal government considers areas with an average noise of more than 65 decibels unsuitable for residential use. Half of the homes in Winooski will be in the noise zone of more than 65 decibels.
At community meetings, not one person from the airport, consulting firms, or Air National Guard could fully answer the question troubling each parent: How will this jet noise impact my family? We desperately want to know the long-term effects of repeatedly exposing our children to jet noise and the environmental consequences of these jets. Like most Vermonters, we love to be outside and enjoy our beautiful state, but can we even sit on our porches or visit the playground during take-off? Should we bring ear protection to the park? Should the children of Winooski wear headphones during soccer practice if the F-35s are flying above the field, or stop games to put their hands over their ears? All parents, regardless of class or race, want a safe and healthy place to raise our children, and we trusted our elected members of Congress to represent the best interests of our families. You, Senator Leahy, and Congressman Welch have failed to do that.
https://vtdigger.org/2019/06/11/winooski-residents-sen-sanders-listen-people/
https://saveourskiesvt.org/
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)At the most, they should have just stuck with the 'A' and 'C' variants
hunter
(38,264 posts)We don't need no God Boys.
The Army and Navy can handle everything.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)from some defense think-tank that we could get rid of the Regular Air Force and the Army (but keep their National Guard components) and just increase the size of the Marines... (Long story short: The USMC's mobility, fighting versatility and synergy with the Navy made them superior and vastly more efficient.)