General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'll be blunt. Democrats help "normalize" Trump if we wait for an election to hold him accountable
To be clear, it is not yet certain that Democrats won't move to impeach Trump in the House rather than leave it for voters to decide whether he's committed "high crimes and misdemeanors" sufficient to remove him from office. But some prominent Democratic voices have argued that "impeachment " would be a divisive course of action that could complicate Democratic Party chances prior to the 2020 elections. And the clock keeps ticking.
Not formally moving toward impeachment of Trump shuts down the prescribed constitutional remedy for extraordinary Presidential misconduct, and punts Trump's behavior to the realm of politics as usual; opposing views on issues litigated via an election: Those who support Trump vote for him, those who don't vote against him. Which is what American voters do under normal circumstances every four years. We choose between (almost invariably) two individuals who are presumed to be at least arguably qualified to become or remain President.
But someone found to have committed significant unlawful acts is not qualified to be President. Someone who advances unconstitutional means of pursuing an agenda is not qualified to be President. There are distinct legal and constitutional checks on either of those behaviors It is normal for voters to litigate via elections which set of policy objectives they prefer, and/or who they more trust with the Presidency. But for our democracy and system of law to prevail in the future as it has so far since our nation's founding, elections should not be expected to decide whether lawful or illegal actions are preferred, or whether constitutional or unconstitutional means should be pursued by a President.
If a President of the United States commits crimes they must be investigated and documented and judged to the extent that our legal system allows. It should not be seen as subject to a public referendum. It is law. The average voter can't be expected to have either the time nor access to specialized expertise to serve as a jury in the context of a partisan election campaign where no rules of evidence prevail. Not after those who had all the needed tools chose not to use them. If a President of the United States fails to uphold our Constitution, our Constitution provides a specific remedy for that behavior; the impeachment process. It was not left to the electorate to decide when the Constitution has been violated, and if so whether or not that's OK so long as they support the President who did so. Congress has a prescribed role that it is expected to play when high crimes and misdemeanors have credibly been accused of a President. Not to play that role infers that the grounds do not exist to trigger that obligation.
We are dealing with Donald Trump now yes, but we are also establishing new constitutional norms and precedents if we just leave it to voters to either condone or condemn the undermining of our system of law and our American Constitution. Demagogues flourish in that type of environment, when the most flagrant abuses of power are passed off for voters alone to face or ignore in the heat of a partisan electoral campaign. That leaves treason subject to a popular vote and normalizes whatever behavior is necessary to secure victory at the ballot box.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Very well articulated.
And the more we normalize, the more the GOP will feel emboldened to do.
ck4829
(35,041 posts)dalton99a
(81,426 posts)mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Also, you have a 'seem' where you meant 'seen' in there ... Just mentioning it cause the rest is perfect, figure you're so close
Err, wait you already fixed it lol ...
NRaleighLiberal
(60,013 posts)of the media. The last 3 years have been beyond nauseating. Abhorrent. Beyond belief. ( And criminal)
dalton99a
(81,426 posts)Democracy means nothing to them anymore
NRaleighLiberal
(60,013 posts)democratisphere
(17,235 posts)than the DSM 5. It is too early to start impeachment; imagine a sitting President in the middle of an impeachment investigation in an election year. It doesn't get any better than THAT!
Autumn
(45,012 posts)NRaleighLiberal
(60,013 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)he stated that an impeachment hearing would devastate Trump. Think about that, a Narcissist being impeached in public hearings every day. Trump will have a nervous breakdown.
Caliman73
(11,726 posts)It means that his pathology is minimized to the extent that it is seen as a typical part of the current paradigm. The way that slavery was "normalized" during the antebellum period and Jim Crow until the Civil Rights movement challenged it. Trump's problems are reported in the media, but they are done so in a way that presents them as the typical conservative v. liberal policy debate and not the wholesale assault on all of the fundamental ideas and institutions that have existed in the country since the constitution was ratified.
Trump's tweets and pronouncements which assail the press and the first amendment, which promote fascism and racism, are reported on as, "Oh look what Trump said and how Democrats responded" instead of "Trump is attempting to destroy the first amendment by saying that anything that does not paint him in the best light is not 'free speech'".
That is "normalizing".
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)KPN
(15,641 posts)more than enough impeachable evidence. Whether the GOP Senate convicts or not is irrelevant to the 2020 election. Wake up Pelosi.
DownriverDem
(6,226 posts)Pelosi is awake. She knows what she is doing. Your time is not her time. (mine either) I do think that the time frame is important. Let's see what happens when Mueller testifies. I believe impeachment will happen which will put it all as part of our history.
KPN
(15,641 posts)simply emboldening meanwhile he/they take more steps toward cementing white plutocracy in place. Yes, it will eventually backfire on them (if we and the planet survive) but it could be decades a generation.
stopdiggin
(11,285 posts)A well written and persuasive piece. I will add one caution. Without at least a modicum (perhaps grudging, perhaps conspicuous silence) of support from the other side of the aisle .. this goes nowhere. Just another partisan sideshow. It is a great stain on the the honor of our country and ideals that one party is willing to countenance patently unfit (and criminal) behavior in out highest offices. But that is what we witness today. Unless we can find more John McCains tomorrow ...
KPN
(15,641 posts)the formal impeachment inquiry soon like within the next month or so. Everything else is worrying about what amounts to partisan gain over country and Constitution. Talk about risk of partisanship perspective.
stopdiggin
(11,285 posts)I'm not flaming you here. Perhaps I didn't understand. Are you saying you would be willing to risk a defeat in 2020 (either in the WH or congressional seats) as the price of "doing the right thing" now?
KPN
(15,641 posts)Im saying the Mueller Report itself is enough evidence to support impeachment.
Autumn
(45,012 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)Justin Amash, former Republican turned Independent. Amash said something to the effect that the danger isn't that we impeach too often, it's that we don't impeach often enough that gives the impression that the president is above the law.
I got a lickin here just for saying that there are Republicans more vocal against Trump than some Democrats. Maybe I will get another licking for telling the truth?
TryLogic
(1,722 posts)I absolutely agree.
Oregon1947
(43 posts)can't imagine all the damage done by then!
watoos
(7,142 posts)Autumn
(45,012 posts)triron
(21,988 posts)handmade34
(22,756 posts)kentuck
(111,069 posts)It is not up to the "average" voter" to hold a president accountable, it is up to the People's Representatives.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)that is politics as usual with that phrase used positively in a proper context: Normal elections where voters judge the (legal) conduct and effectiveness of an office holder.
But "average voters" can't issue subpoenas, average voters can't convene grand juries, average voters can't issue search warrants or any number of other legal procedures that are reserved for official prosecutors to pursue. As you say, the People's Representatives have a job to do.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)...to lies and propaganda from a demagogue. It is not a "fair" election when this happens. All is not fair in love, war, and politics.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)They are chosen to be our full time guardians. They are expected to respond to an emergency with action, not to commission study groups to determine whether it is politically safe to do so.
TryLogic
(1,722 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)Same old, same old?
Paladin
(28,246 posts)Right now, we're on a runaway train towards a full-on fascist country---and the Democratic Party is coming up way short of a proper response. If the party lacks the guts to effectively oppose trump, we might as well plan on seeing one another in the streets. I'm old and cranky, and I am in no mood to see trump and his idiot hordes assuming full dictatorial rule of what used to be a decent nation. There is nothing normal about the times we're living in---act accordingly.
Moral Compass
(1,516 posts)We are at this point for a reason. When Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off the table during the Bush regime many of their worst crimes became precedent. Only torture was eventually abjured. The rest--indefinite confinement for unproven terrorism charges, essential elimination of habeus corpus, politicization of intelligence, and the big one the invasion of Iraq--became the norm. So, when Obama took over we saw the results of this--he was unable to close Gitmo because it was now normalized. His administration expanded remote drone warfare against targets that often turned out to be civilians not terrorists. Oh, and one other thing was normalized--stolen elections. I think that history, if it is ever accurately written (remember the winners write the history), will show that the day that the Supreme Court handed the 2000 election to the loser of the election in a stunningly partisan move that was essentially a judicial coup de tat. The stealing of elections was therefore also normalized.
Now we have the logical heir to the amoral Cheney/Bush administration where all norms are being shredded. Trump has no Poppy Bush telling him that he doesn't want to be the one to go down in history as the President that ended the Republic. Trump and his cabal have stolen an election, blatantly violated the emoluments clause in the Constitution, are currently committing crimes against humanity by imprisoning refugees in conditions that have proven fatal to over 50 at this point, seem to be actively trying to destroy our relationships with our key allies etc. The list is endless.
And, again, Nancy Pelosi has taken impeachment off the table.
I think Nancy is a brilliant tactician, but an extremely poor strategist. I think we would be in much worse shape if she was not Speaker, but I think that she is making a terrible strategic error by not supporting articles of impeachment.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Thank you for this response. I encourage you to also make this the basis for a stand alone OP.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)They're doing nothing and trying to go "back" to the very state that *gave us trump in the first place*
Without ever having rectified any of the normalized advances by the gop - they push the ball 80 yards, we get it and push 2 yards back and call it being bipartisan.
Why are they protecting trump? Even if it's not what they would initiate (impeachment) they should be pounding the drums to put the fear of god in him. Not per-emtive surrender all the time (oh sorry, 8D chess). The only reason I can fathom is that it's good for fundraising and hoping a more "conservative" dem is the nomination?
As far as tactician, they can't even tell story: the Pelosi et all side just does NOT get that you cannot control the flow of information from a "central" location, and that the speed that trump communicates with his minions lets him run circles around them. It's astounding - that with his small reptile brain he still gets his "way" more often than not. But they don't even try. They give in first and negotiate later with weakly worded letters.
brush
(53,758 posts)alwaysinasnit
(5,063 posts)brutus smith
(685 posts)If Pelosi and Schumer think trump will lose the 2020 election by just being trump, we're doomed. It's already getting late in the game for impeachment proceedings to begin. The new Congressional Dems were put in office to stop this moron from unraveling the gains of the Obama years. IMPEACH NOW!
LiberalLovinLug
(14,168 posts)The longer we wait the more difficult it becomes. Not only giving the enemy (of the people) more time to prepare, but also more time to brainwash the True Believers to stock up. More time for normalization.
And if we never do? Republicans, even though they are whining now about even starting one, will no doubt then crow about "if they could have, they would have" ie It was all bark with no bite. That it proved their was nothing there to impeach for.
Meanwhile it will frustrate and deflate Democrats for 2020.
It's a lose lose scenario.
Edited to add:
There WILL come a point when it has dragged on too long, too close to an election, to realistically begin, . Nancy, Chuck, Biden, and those in that circle will have gotten their way. That's what they are gunning for.
brutus smith
(685 posts)That is what Chuck, Nancy and Biden want. Same old, same old.
Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)EleanorR
(2,389 posts)HOUSE INVESTIGATIONS
JUDICIARY: Chairman Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y.
Oversight of the administration's family separation policy
Former acting Attorney General Matthew Whitakers appointment, his involvement in the Mueller investigation, and his conversations with Trump and involvement with World Patent Marketing
Voting rights and Department of Justice actions on voter ID, census cases
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska Trump's national emergency declaration
The president's "threats to the rule of law," covering three main areas:
1. Obstruction of justice, including the possibility of interference by Trump and others in a number of criminal investigations and other official proceedings, as well as the alleged cover-up of violations of the law;
2. Public corruption, including potential violations of the Emoluments Clause of the U.S. Constitution, conspiracy to violate federal campaign and financial reporting laws, and other criminal misuses of official positions for personal gain;
3. Abuses of power, including attacks on the press, the judiciary, and law enforcement agencies; misuse of the pardon power and other presidential authorities; and attempts to misuse the power of the office of the presidency.
Trump's interference in Time Warner merger
Threats to relocate migrants to sanctuary cities
Reports that the president said he would pardon acting Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan if he illegally closed the southern border to migrants
Firings of senior leadership at DHS
The administration's decision to stop defending the Affordable Care Act in court
OVERSIGHT AND REFORM: Chairman Elijah Cummings, D-Md.
Oversight of the Trump administrations family separation policy
Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker's involvement with World Patent Marketing
Reports that the Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman was failing failing to carry out statutory duties to help those applying for legal immigration programs
White House security clearances
Inclusion of a citizenship question on the 2020 census
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska
Delayed back pay for federal workers impacted by the government shutdown
Michael Cohen hush-money payments
Education Secretary Betsy DeVos' efforts to replace her agency's acting inspector general
Transfer of nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia
Child separation actions at DOJ, DHS and Health and Human Services
Communications between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Trump
Michael Cohen's claims that Trump was improperly inflating financial statements
Interior Secretary David Bernhardt's schedules
Trump's threats to relocate migrants to sanctuary cities
Use of private email accounts by Jared Kushner, Ivanka Trump and other White House officials, and use of messaging apps like WhatsApp
Gag orders on White House staff
Title X gag rule regulatory review process
Potential lobbying conflicts of interest involving Environmental Protection Agency head Andrew Wheeler Interior Department's handling of FOIA requests
Abandoning plan to move FBI HQ building from Washington to suburban location Firings of senior leadership at DHS
Trump Administrations response to hurricanes in Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands Trump Administrations decision to stop defending ACA
INTELLIGENCE: Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif.
Russia investigation, including the scope and scale of the Russian government's operations to influence the U.S. political process, and the U.S. government's response, the extent of any links and/or coordination between the Russian government, or related foreign actors, and individuals associated with Trump's campaign, transition, administration or business interests, whether any foreign actor has sought to compromise or holds leverage, financial or otherwise, over Trump, his family, his business, or his associates; whether Trump, his family, or his associates are or were at any time at heightened risk of, or vulnerable to, foreign exploitation; and whether any actors foreign or domestic sought or are seeking to impede, obstruct, and/or mislead authorized investigations into these matters
Whether lawyers for Trump and his family obstructed committee's Russia probe Trump's personal finances, including loans from Deutsche Bank
Use of intelligence to justify building a wall at the southern border
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska Communications between Putin and Trump
WAYS AND MEANS: Chairman Richard Neal, D-Mass.
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska
Trump administration's use of user fees generated by the Affordable Care Act Rule on short-term insurance plans
Trump administrations decision to stop defending ACA
The president's personal and business tax returns
ENERGY & COMMERCE: Chairman Frank Pallone, D-N.J.
Short-term insurance plans
How the administration is spending user fees generated by the ACA
How HHS is caring for children impacted by the Trump family separation policy
EPA clean air rollbacks
EPA political appointees blocking release of a chemical study
EPA rollback of policies that reduce greenhouse gas emissions to address climate change EPA political appointee steering litigation to benefit former client
EPA Officials ties to Utility Air Regulator Group
Trump Administrations decision to stop defending ACA
FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Chairman Eliot Engel, D-N.Y.
Communications between Putin and Trump
Trump administration's failure to produce Russian sanctions report
FINANCIAL SERVICES: Chairwoman Maxine Waters, D-Calif.
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska Trump's personal finances, including loans from Deutsche Bank
Trump administration's failure to produce Russian sanctions report
Reported ransom demand from North Korean government related to Otto Warmbier
HOMELAND SECURITY: Chairman Bennie Thompson, D-Miss.
Easing of sanctions on companies linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska
Administration's border security policies
Investigation into Trump threats to relocate migrants to sanctuary cities
HUD disbursement of Puerto Rico disaster relief funds
Firings of senior leadership at DHS
Reports of ICE tracking Trump protesters
NATURAL RESOURCES: Chairman Raul Grijalva, D-Ariz.
HUD disbursement of Puerto Rico disaster relief funds
Interior Secretary David Bernhardt's schedules
Agriculture/Interior Department decisions to further construction of a copper sulfite mine in Minnesota
VETERANS' AFFAIRS: Chairman Mark Takano, D-Calif.
Travel expenses of a political appointee in the Department of Veterans Affairs
Potential influence of several Mar-a-Lago members on VA decisions
EDUCATION AND LABOR: Chairman Bobby Scott, D-Va.
DeVos's efforts to replace the acting inspector general
Administration's decision to rescind Obama-era guidance on school discipline
Trump administrations use of user fees generated by the Affordable Care Act Trump administrations decision to stop defending ACA
TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE: Chairman Peter DeFazio, D-Ore.
Trump Hotel lease of Old Post Office building
Abandoning plan to move FBI headquarters from Washington to suburban location
APPROPRIATIONS: Chairwoman Nita Lowey, D-N.Y.
Use of Pentagon funds for border wall
National emergency declaration and border wall funds
BUDGET: Chairman John Yarmuth, D-Ky.
National emergency declaration and border wall funds
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)As well it should in the normal process of oversight of any normal administration, let alone the current one. There has not been a presidency that I know of that has not been subject to congressional oversight hearings. Though, from what I can tell, no modern president has so consistently advanced as unconstitutional an assertion of executive power and right to ignore congressional oversight as Trump has.
Congressional hearings have an ongoing important role to play. Impeachment inquiries have an exceptional role to play under extraordinary circumstances. From the length of the list assembled a strong case can be made that the threshold has already been crossed to warrant the latter. Unless one argues that normal congressional oversight mechanisms have made the impeachment process duplicative and uncalled for.
CrispyQ
(36,437 posts)ABC/CBS/NBC & all those Sinclair affiliates would cover an impeachment inquiry, whereas the list the poster above provided - how many Americans will see that?
Start the inquiry & the momentum will build. People will be stunned at the criminality of the Trump org. I have friends who are total dem, but they are still in la-la land in terms of understanding the scope of what Trump has done over decades.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)TryLogic
(1,722 posts)I think there needs to be better focus to accomplish much.
cutroot
(875 posts)Maybe not quickly enough for some, but this is happening and I have faith in it. We have never had such a coordinated attack on our government before. I thought that nixon was going to get away with it and I was wrong. He resigned in shame and was barely heard from ever again.
Many are growing impatient and the trolls are stirring the pot. There will be no escape for the guilty this time. The internet has a long and concise memory. The people that are sitting in prison covering for trump will soon be joined by many more. They are not honorable people. They will trip over each other feigning innocence and ignorance when the light shines upon them.
CrispyQ
(36,437 posts)In their lust for power they have abandoned rule of law & spit in the face of tradition. People think it can't happen here, even as it's happening before our eyes. Personally, I give our republic about a 30% chance of surviving Trump/Barr/McConnell.
BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)TwilightZone
(25,451 posts)In fairness, the OP has not done that, but comments of that nature litter DU. I often wonder if the ignorance is intentional or otherwise.
spike91nz
(180 posts)Great essay. Agree and recommend
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Sanders and Biden are too old. So are Pelosi and Hoyer. 2020 should not only be about replacing Trump and McConnell but also about finding the energetic leaders to step in and replace the aging cast of Democratic leaders as it is time to pass the torch. And nothing drives this home more than the refusal to start impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump. We need to focus on what is right (impeachment) rather than how it might impact the next election. That is not upholding the law or putting the American people first - perhaps another sign that it is time to pass the torch.
jalan48
(13,852 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I don't think Beto could handle Trump, though. Something about his personality. But I think Mayor Pete could.
But they're not getting the numbers (although Pete is getting some serious money).
jalan48
(13,852 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)If we win in 2020, we'll have it through 2028. Then the Republicans will win and have it through 2036. Mayor Pete with be 53. I don't know how old Beto is. Those are good ages to run for President, though.
If we lose, we'll have another shot in 2024, though.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)It's because she is so experienced that Trump has been "handled" so far, and we got a budget bill passed, and other bills, and the committees staffed as soon as they took office,and investigations begun almost on day one.
If it had been anyone else, all that would not have been done. Experience does count, when you're talking about the leadership. Besides, I don't think there is anyone else who could replace her.
I agree about Sanders and Biden, though. But they are in the race, and they are the ones that most voters want, so far.
As for dealing with Trump, the strategy is important.
panfluteman
(2,065 posts)This is just common sense. If we don't impeach Trump now, his illegal and unconstitutional behavior will become the new normal. We now believe that there could be no future president who could be worse than Donald Trump - but isn't that what we believed about George W. Bush just a few years back?
CrispyQ
(36,437 posts)We now believe that there could be no future president who could be worse than Donald Trump - but isn't that what we believed about George W. Bush just a few years back?
H2O Man
(73,524 posts)I agree.
Poiuyt
(18,122 posts)Thank you!
yaesu
(8,020 posts)we shouldn't be working with them or tRump AT ALL, that means money for government, money for tRumps security, his lavish lifestyle, we should shut everything down, be as mean and nasty as they are, its war, time to work with them has long expired.
G_j
(40,366 posts)CrispyQ
(36,437 posts)Where does the GOP get the idea they can do whatever they want? Gee, I don't know. Maybe when the dems backed down after the 2000 stolen election. Or when Ohio flipped in 2004. Or when we dropped the ball & lost over 900 state seats & governorships. Or when McConnell refused to have a hearing for Garland & the dems went all crickets. Or when Obama knew about Russian meddling in our election but kept quiet because McConnell might politicize it. Gee, I don't know where they got the frickin' idea that they could steal the country & the dems would do little or nothing. I know many people think the Speaker is playing seven dimensional chess but I don't. I haven't seen any real fight in the dems since Johnson. I hope I'm wrong & they start an impeachment inquiry on this president but I wouldn't put money on it.
TryLogic
(1,722 posts)Doodley
(9,076 posts)every single day by this president and the damage he is doing, but we don't sense that same sense of shock or urgency in our representatives? They let him get away with it for two and a half years and that is why he has as much support now as when he was inaugurated. Democrats have not convinced a single voter that Trump is bad for America and the planet. Not one voter in 30 months of Trump. Not one.
EleanorR
(2,389 posts)It's the republicans who have been too cowardly to check the lunatic.
Doodley
(9,076 posts)get the message to the public and swinging voters. First and foremost, it's a propaganda war and Trump is winning. If he carries on winning that war, he will win again. We can't rely on investigations or blame Republicans. A business that blames its competitors for its failings or its ability to win market share, isn't likely to succeed.
TwilightZone
(25,451 posts)The constant drumbeat of blaming Democrats for everything, including the first two years of Trump's administration, got tiresome a long time ago.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Bluepinky
(2,268 posts)It will make the politicians who vote against impeachment in alliance with Trump and his crimes. Those who vote for impeachment can campaign on this, how their opponent stood with Trump on all his offenses.
If he isnt impeached, all his crimes wont be exposed, and Trump will say he did nothing wrong since he wasnt impeached.
gibraltar72
(7,500 posts)The Liberal Lion
(1,414 posts)But I've come to the conclusion that we must depend on ourselves at this point. That the House has not moved forward on impeachment regardless of what the Senate will do shows that our own allies in the House are treating trump's treason and lawlessness as nothing more than politics as usual, as you stated in your post. It is up to the people now, our elected representatives have failed us IMHO. I no longer believe either that our solutions will come by way of the ballot.
90-percent
(6,828 posts)I strongly prefer going down fighting to being stuffed into cattle cars on a one way trip to my final contribution to modern day genocide.
It can't happen here my ass! It's happening here and our Democracy is being parted out bit by bit to the morbidly wealthy pedophile sociopaths that run and own everything. If they are willing to incinerate the planet in the name of greed and stupidity, they are truly capable of genocide. This border thing is being normalized and is supported by so many that the Republics have been taught repeatedly and daily they can literally get away with murder.
Make treason great again.
Make totalitarian fascist police states great again.
-90% Jimmy
Ponietz
(2,955 posts)And thank Tom Rinaldo for writing it.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)He's already normal for half the voting populace. He's only abnormal to our side and our half of the moderates.
TwilightZone
(25,451 posts)It's a little late to be worried about normalizing Trump. That's been happening since before he was elected.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)Bettie
(16,083 posts)so, instead, here's a kick.
GuyNamedNathan
(89 posts)RVN VET71
(2,690 posts)Impeachment hearings will expose Trump as a treasonous, greedy swine -- and history needs to reflect that. But impeachment hearings in the midst of the 2020 campaign may be able to provide the historic exposure and, at the same time, kick Trump in his mushroom on a daily basis.
It's at least possible that Nancy is not refusing so much as delaying the beginnings of the process. It would, perhaps, have a stronger impact on the electorate if the impeachment process continued through the campaign up to election day.
I'm concerned that, if the Senate has the opportunity to exonerate Trump too soon, the Republicans will have enough time before election day to regain control of the message and refocus it on issues beneficial to their leader. The public's memory of Trump's impeachment in the House could fade as the media relegates it to the back pages, with the obituaries. And, thanks to a weak kneed media, the public would hear less and less about the crimes and misdemeanors of the Trump administration and more and more about the glories of "Space Force" and the "invasion" of poor people from Central America.
dchill
(38,462 posts)rufus dog
(8,419 posts)1. We must move on from the latest Repub transgression and heal
2. California is a liberal failure and will go bankrupt.
As posted above, Pelosi let Bush/Cheney off the hook in 2006 in an effort to heal and move forward. It created an opportunity for Obama while the Repubs "healed" and reloaded. Then in 2010 they were able to take control of the Legislative branch. Then they got tRump elected and moved the Country fruther to the right.
This happened under Bush I (Iran/Contra) Reagan, and Nixon. In each case the Dems backed off, and the Country moved farther to the right. (In spite of the wants of the electorate)
As for CA, we went from 11th or 12th in GDP in the world to 5th or 6th. So a bit of failing upward..
So we can try the same insane failed approach used over the past 50 years, OR understand that the Repubs can't be allowed to "heal" on their own. We must force healing on them and minimize their impact on the world.
It won't be pleasant, but the longer put off, the more unpleasant.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)"It should not be seen as subject to a public referendum."
"Congress has a prescribed role that it is expected to play when high crimes and misdemeanors have credibly been accused of a President."
"...but we are also establishing new constitutional norms and precedents if we just leave it to voters to either condone or condemn the undermining of our system of law and our American Constitution."
Martin Eden
(12,859 posts)Nevertheless, I want the House to impeach this POtuS because to do otherwise would be a dereliction of duty and tacit approval of high crimes.
The arguments against impeachment are a matter of political calculation regarding how it will affect the 2020 election.
There are reasonable arguments on both sides of that question.
I think there is more than enough evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors to warrant impeachment and conviction.
A decision based on political calculation depends on how strong of a case the House Democrats can make in the court of public opinion.
Current polls do not necessarily support impeachment, but as we saw with Nixon those polls changed when the public was confronted with the evidence.
Done correctly, I think public support for impeachment will increase to the advantage of Democrats in the 2020 election and to the disadvantage of republicans who put partisanship ahead of duty to country.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)gtar100
(4,192 posts)CaptainTruth
(6,582 posts)Lots of people talk about "holding Trump accountable" & I'd like to know what that means, to each of you.
Is it just mpeachment? We all know if the House impeaches, the Senate won't convict so Trump gets off free & nothing changes. Does that constitute "holding him accountable?" After he's been impeached & acquitted, & he's still POTUS & nothing has changed, will you feel like he's been held accountable?
I want impeachment, but I also want something that imposes more penalties than "none." Last month Pelosi said "I want to see him in prison," & so do I. To me, that's actually holding him accountable.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)We may not always have the means to assure that happens. For example, we had no real standing or input to challenge the Justice Department current opinion on indicting a President while in office, which informed Mueller's (a Justice Dept. employee) options. We may not be able to overcome the Republican conspiracy backing Trump in the Senate to finally remove Trump from office prior to the 2020 election. But we can ensure that the constitutional obligation of the House of Representatives is fulfilled, that Trump faces impeachment hearings, that no stone is left unturned to expose the full extent of his high crimes and misdemeanors to the public, and that he is impeached as the actual facts call for.
None of that precludes Trump facing various State and Federal criminal charges once he no longer sits in the Oval Office. It is not either/or.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)It has been posted along the way to initiate impeachment 'hearings' and state only 'as such', and not direct the outcome to a Senate vote. Just get all the dirt out in the open. TV exposure.
thegoose
(3,115 posts)Everything he's doing now is a crime. Obstruction. Grift. Racism. Cronyism. Encouraging violence among the MAGATs. Jesus, so now Evangelicals are thinking that raping underage girls is "fine"? Is that where we are?
Someone got mad at me for comparing today's ICE activities to the Holocaust, but that's how it began. This piece of shit needs to be removed now.
Locutusofborg
(525 posts)on all charges that will be the end of the ability of the Democrats in Congress to impact the continuing crimes of Trump until he is out of office. If anyone can name 19 Republican Senators who might be willing to find him guilty, then impeachment might be a good thing. The latest ABC News/Washington Post poll of 6/28-7/1 shows 37% support for impeachment and 59% against.
Impeachment is as much a political process as it is a legal process. A Bill of Impeachment by the House is an indictment. A Not Guilty verdict by the Senate hands Trump a major political victory in an election year.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)than could possibly win or retain them for that reason. The only thing Democrats can measurably do to undermine Trump's perceived authority in solid red states would be to hold high profile impeachment hearings that forced all of the dirt on him through the filters that currently protect his standing with them. Even with that Trump's core base and supporters are safe. Not impeaching Trump won't win Democrats any Senate seats we would not have won anyway. But in key races Republicans can be attacked for how they handle impeachment in the Senate. And Democrats will be super energized to win each and every competitive race involving a Republican Senator who voted not to convict and remove Trump from office. AFTER impeachment poll numbers will not look anything like pre-impeachment polls. That was true of Nixon as you know (support for him slipped after the hearings began)
The game board changes after 2020. If Trump is reelected Democrats THEN will be in a relatively weak position to impact Trump. But refusing to impeach him now does not strengthen our ability to impact him now. To the contrary.
Not being impeached is a major political victory for Trump.
Locutusofborg
(525 posts)The Republicans in the Senate and red state voters stand by Trump no matter what. I count 8 states where a Republican Senator up for reelection in 2020 MIGHT possibly be vulnerable: Arizona, Colorado, Maine, North Carolina, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas and Montana. The rest of the Republican Senate seats being contested in 2020 are in solidly red states. From a Republican point of view, deserting Trump is more dangerous to a senators reelection chances than backing Trump. His current job approval rating among Republicans is 53% strongly approve and 28% somewhat approve.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-07/2019_reuters_tracking_-_core_political_party_strength_matchups_07_10_2019.pdf
One Republican member of Congress out of 250 representatives and senators has come out for impeachment and he (Rep. Amash) promptly left the Republican Party.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)In other words, those non competitive Senate seats are in the bag for Trump regardless. Arizona, North Carolina, Maine, Colorado, Kansas etc. however represent a potentially different story. Standing with Trump's illegal and unconstitutional behavior can be used by Democrats against some Republican Senators.
lame54
(35,277 posts)TwilightZone
(25,451 posts)That's the rule.
c-rational
(2,590 posts)budkin
(6,699 posts)We need to ACT!
Bluepinky
(2,268 posts)If Trump isnt held accountable, the message getting out is that its ok for a foreign government to interfere in our elections, its ok to lie to government officials and to fire government employees to try to hide illegal behavior, its okay to profit off your official position and to appoint unqualified family members and friends to government jobs, and its okay to separate families and put people in cages, including children, for attempting to seek asylum in this country.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)
LovingA2andMI This message was self-deleted by its author.
world wide wally
(21,739 posts)tell that to the people who will be imprisoned and deported today. " Oh, don't worry, it's part of our strategy"
Or maybe wait till after he imposes martial law or outlaws the press. Whatever your strategy is, I think you are playing a very dangerous game by letting the criminal run roughshod over the system just to please his base as our base deserts us for inaction.
Ligyron
(7,622 posts)OH MY #$%@ GAWD!!
We impeach to illuminate what way too many are only dimly aware of, i.e., the incredible criminality of Dump and his co-conspiritors.
Many of them truly have no clue.
Whew, there, I said it, now I feel better.
Locutusofborg
(525 posts)If the House passes a Bill of Impeachment it MUST go to the Senate and then Mitch McConnell gets to determine the process under which Chief Justice Roberts conducts a trial.
Ligyron
(7,622 posts)No, we delay, stall do whatever it takes whether against "The Rules" or not.
Republicans ignore the rules and the law day in and day out with little to no consequence. In fact, the have done so for years.
This is an all out emergency as we all know and the future of our country and perhaps the Free World are in serious peril.
We may have to play hardball for a change as distasteful as that may be to some.
sprinkleeninow
(20,235 posts)Taking into consideration 1] being favored for some 'reasons' or 2] what's meet and right and Constitutionally called for.
Cary
(11,746 posts)2. The fact that he is normalized isn't Democrats' fault.
3. If you blame Democrats for Republican malfeasance you reward their gaslighting.
4. There is no shortcut for putting the toothpaste back into the tube.
Different Drummer
(7,611 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,381 posts)The Constitutional remedy of impeachment must not be avoided due to political speculation. Opening an inquiry of impeachment is the right thing to do. Mueller provided the road map on obstruction of Justice and enabling, requesting, or otherwise approving of Russian interference in our election.
Now. Impeachment inquiry, NOW!!!
democrank
(11,092 posts)SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)leftstreet
(36,102 posts)Thank you for this
Perseus
(4,341 posts)You are 100% correct and, as Laurence Tribe explained, the excuse that Senate will not impeach is not valid, the reason to impeach the creature at this time is to be able to gather all the documentation needed, that includes the unredacted Muller report, taxes, etc., and to expose the criminality, treasonous behaviour of not only the creature but of all those who conspire with him.
I hope I am wrong, but if the creature is not impeached and we go to 2020, anyone supporting Democrats is going to be very sorry, I know I will be because the cheating is going to get worst, I don't feel confident we can take the administration out through the vote.
Anyone who reads my entries know I always bring the Venezuelan blueprint into the conversation, that is because I know a lot about it, and the same thing happened there, they tried and tried to get Chavez first, then Maduro out of government via legal means, such as the vote, and every time they cheated, the same will happen here. It CAN happen here!
gulliver
(13,180 posts)It won't. If we use the Constitution and our elected offices (but not our electoral power) to beat Trump over the head, the Constitution will break, and our offices will be disempowered. McConnell, through his theft of an Obama Supreme Court Seat, has shown everyone that he has no intention of letting a traditional subservience and loyalty to the Constitution get in the way of raw Republican power. He and his Republicans will turn the Constitution into mincemeat before they will let the Dems have the Presidency.
The way an impeachment happens is if we Dems are the ones browbeating the Republicans to join us in calling for it. When we are on the offense demanding that Republicans join us, that's when you know impeachment is possible. When the politics of the situation (not conscientious loyalty to the Constitution, which Republicans don't have) makes Republicans fear not joining us in impeachment, then we can defend the Constitution with impeachment. Not before. Republicans will show loyalty to the Constitution only as a last resort and if they are forced by their own self-interest.
It can start with an impeachment inquiry in the House, and that is by far the best approach. We are on track toward that with appearances by Mueller coming up. Those can motivate an inquiry. But we have a major fight on our hands rhetorically.
diva77
(7,638 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)voters in the moderate districts that gave us a majority are against impeachment...you will give him four more year maybe with all three branches of government again...now how is that a good thing?
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)A formal impeachment inquiry will showcase Trump's crimes, unlike oversight hearing. I was just watching Kasie Hunt this afternoon and she again repeated Trump's lie you hear repeated all over the media that the Mueller report "found no evidence of collusion." The fact is the report lists a mountain of evidence of collusion. But, in Muller's opinion, not enough to establish the crime of conspiracy. That evidence needs to be presented in dramatic, televised hearings to the Americam people. That would not be a waste of time. We must expose this criminal or risk getting him reelected.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)we need...we could lose the house and the presidency...it is so not worth it...we have hopefully only about a year left with this bastard...lets not throw him the impeachment lifeline.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)What none of us can know with certainty is how circumstances will evolve,and how those developments "will effect polls". On November 7, 1972 Richard Nixon won reelection with over 60% of the popular vote in a massive landslide, losing only Massachusetts and the District of Columbia. On August 9, 1974, less than two years later, he resigned the presidency in disgrace. In between those two dates the House of Representatives initiated impeachment hearings into Nixon's behavior in office. When those hearings began the public was solidly opposed to Nixon's impeachment. By the time he resigned the public strongly favored it.
You do not possess a flawless crustal ball and neither do I. People of good will in good faith can disagree about the best way forward, but I do not accept your opinion presented as fact, that impeaching Trump will give him four more years in office. For the record my own opinion is that Trump and his followers would be emboldened by Democrats in the House giving him a pass on impeachment. My own vote belongs to whoever the Democrats run, but God help us if the impression starts setting in among those less loyal than I that Democratic convictions are poll driven, and that we shirk our obligation to lead when the times call for principled leadership but we fear focus groups that indicate some political risk in providing just that.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)him,that would be one thing, but we can't so there is no reason to take such a risk...put out the dirt via investigation and use it to hurt him and stop beating up on Nancy...she is right and the disarray in our party only helps Trump.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)will never be on our side...and this will only rally his base and hurt us with moderates...we could lose the house and give the bastard four more years too...we should work to oust him in 20...defeat him and win more seats in the house and take back the Senate...that should be our priority...not spitting in the wind which is what impeachment without conviction amounts too.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,309 posts)colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)I think Nancy Pelosi has been a smart savvy Democrat until this situation, but I believe she is reading this situation totally wrong. These are not normal times, this is a hair on fire time, this is situation dire. Our democracy is at risk. We need to show that we are fighting back hard.
Start an Impeachment Inquiry.....they are daring us to, gnoring subpoenas and Court Orders, thumbing their noses at the law.
Its Go Time Nancy!
Snarkoleptic
(5,997 posts)What if we continue 'keeping our powder dry' for so long that impeachment is no longer an option.
R's are working hard to disenfranchise voters, and Putin (plus other state actors) are already hacking our psyche and election infrastructure.
So what if we wake up after the election to find Trump re-elected and R's control both houses of congress.
What then?
Full on fascism and the end of the republic.
Sorry, I'm in a dark mood over this stuff at the moment.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)yellowdogintexas
(22,243 posts)President who comes after him will know they can literally get away with anything.
ancianita
(36,009 posts)to use The Law and due process of investigations, testimony and other ways and means to act.
The way I see it, it's not for Democrats' lack of acting, at this point. The public knows that takes time. The frustration is that the acting has been stalled or otherwise neutralized by application of The Law.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)It is about assessing potential (and in my view likely) consequences if, as I wrote in the subject line, "we wait for an election to hold him accountable". The Democrats are, as you say, "acting", and in no way are the Democrats responsible for Trump's "high crimes and misdemeanors". Trumps's strategy has clearly been to obstruct and stall. Many of us believe that Mueller's Report already gives us ample legal grounds to start the impeachment process. If that is not actually begun well begun before the Iowa caucus is held, Congress will be too far into the heat of the 2020 election season for it to remain a politically viable option to begin. It is not a quick process. The time window to proceed is closing rapidly
TwilightZone
(25,451 posts)Don't kid yourself. You're clearly insisting that the normalization of Trump is their fault if they don't impeach, an assertion that, frankly, is ridiculous.
The normalization of Trump started years ago and has been a continual process since before he was elected. One act or lack thereof would change nothing in that regard. His behavior and actions have already been normalized, as evidenced by the fact that clear impeachable behavior is met with a collective shrug by roughly half of the voting public, including a not-insignificant number of Democrats.
You also seem to be under the same misguided impression as others that impeachment is some sure-fire way of holding Trump accountable. On the contrary, it's pretty much guaranteed to do nothing in terms of holding him accountable. The only remedies allowed are removal from office, which is irrelevant in this particular case, and prohibiting him from holding future office. As far as accountability goes, getting him out of office is the first step, followed by prosecution by non-Congressional jurisdictions.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)As you say that process began years ago. I am not fixing blame on Democrats for that. I am speaking to how we can best counter its continuance. Obviously opinions differ.
Thekaspervote
(32,750 posts)ancianita
(36,009 posts)Regarding action...
Anyone here can list all the ways that the public has taken action, outside the beltway, so that its will and voice are known. Major nationwide polls on issues, approval ratings, demonstrations, protest marches, social media, phone calls, emails, etc.
The way I see it, your use of "We" should be clearer. You can make a case for the Democratic Party "we" in implying slowness of action or "fight."
But the collective "we" of the country, and those of the 'we' who vote, are not establishing anything like "new constitutional norms and precedents, whether they're crimes, flagrant abuses of power or treason" by waiting to vote. Or casting it all out with one election, for that matter.
As I see it, the public is paying attention. The voting part did their bit to make the House a Democratic majority already. They can see that if only one party is trying to rid the country of corruption and treason, but is foiled by one branch and the impotence of another branch (until a "case" comes before it), that the problem can't reflect on the public until the next election.
When the elected who swear their oaths to the constitution are unwilling or unable to do so because of structural impediments to enforcing their actions, then the final, real constitutional norm is vote by the electorate.
The collective "we," including unelected Democrats and all those who did or didn't see this coming (which does include most of Congress, I'd bet), have no other remedies for treason but elections.
I can't buy that elections "normalize" anything about politicians, though, when elections are the major democratic means for removing politicians from office. The public alone has sent over 24 qualified officials to beat this president and reinstate all that's been neutralized or eliminated.
I understand where you're coming from. Much of what you say about the structural problems of applying the Law is true.
But the word "normalizing" can apply to all kinds of contexts that people have no control over. "Normalizing" is not a character flaw, but an adaptive mentality that helps one cope in situations they can't control, whether basic survival, political or historical social situations. It shouldn't have the pathological ring it seems to have here.
What you say about the public "normalizing" is, I think, a label. It's too easily used with such a big country and population, a kind of generalized claim that sounds like a DSM V diagnosis, or about some collective content of their character. It's a label you apply much too soon, over a situation the public never invented, wanted, saw coming, and which they'll probably vote to end, anyway. If they vote for this situation again, then your claim will have validity.
I don't accept that the 80% of America who didn't vote for this president have seen our government's situation the way you do. But in case they do, there's still a voting pattern to establish, which is that, unless the proven stealing of a presidential election happens more than once, nothing about this situation stands as normalized. But we'll see.
It's complicated. And to me, words can clear up or obscure it.
Thanks for all your thoughts on this situation.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Resistance to Trump online and on the streets has swelled from the moment he was inaugurated, and the midterm elections featured a massive turn out by Democrats. We will get to vote for President again in 2020. In the mean time, in the mid terms, we elected a Democratic House to represent our interests. It is my view that when grave impeachable offenses occur there is a constitutional obligation for impeachment hearings to be launched in Congress, and a failure to do that (something which is clearly within the powers of the House to initiate, and to initiate now) contributes in some degree to the normalization of those impeachable offenses.
The options that the public now directly has are limited. And it is harsh to call even the non voting public directly complicit in the evil that some elected officials commit. My focus in this OP was on Democrats in the House of Representatives and the options that they currently have to take actions.
My first reaction, many years ago, to seeing a person lying homeless on a city street was akin to horror. I am no more responsible now for homelessness than I was then, and I am just as saddened by it and the policies and priorities that allow it to exist as I was then. But I am no longer as visibly viscerally shocked by the sight of it as I was back then. When an outrage occurs, and it keeps occurring, and life goes on around it without that outrage manifesting in the strongest possible ways, eventually what caused that outrage to an extent gets incorporated into our perception of what predictably occurs and is not adamantly pushed back against when it does.
You wrote a very thoughtful reply. Thank you. Realty is far more complex than any blog post, mine included, can adequately address in several paragraphs, and yes words do get used as simplified short hand for concepts that are not really so easily pinned down.
BeckyDem
(8,361 posts)He is a human rights abuser.
Sogo
(4,986 posts)Hell if you do; hell if you don't.
They normalize him also (maybe even more) if they impeach and then send it to the Senate who, of course, acquits, thus giving him the legitimate claim to exoneration at that point.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Personally I think Trump would get far more leverage out of saying that Democrats, who control the House, tacitly concede that it was all about "presidential harassment" and "a witch hunt" if even they know that there are no valid grounds to impeach him (which is how he would make the point if we don't impeach). The failure to even impeach after an exhaustive investigation is the ultimate exoneration for Trump. I'll take our chances fighting on the merits of the issue after the hearings have been widely broadcast to the nation. Let the public then decide which side is motivated by purely partisan concerns.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)By now the public fully expects Republicans to fall completely into line defending Trump in any and all situations. That would be one further instance of that behavior. Let them do so before the full electorate. Failing to impeach Trump however can easily be construed as proof that the Democrats were always grandstanding, and that even they knew that Trump is innocent of any impeachable offenses. In other words, a failure by Democrats to impeach can be perceived as adding credence to Trump's claim of full exoneration.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)All an acquittal does is give him a week's worth of "vindicated!!!" news cycles. Screw that.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)Trump has been on a "I'm vindicated!!!" tear ever since Barr's framing memo. Personally I'll trade the impact of him bragging about Republican vindication in the Senate against the impact of extended impeachment hearings in the House followed by only the third impeachment of a President in history any day. I do respect opposing viewpoints, it's just that's how I come down on this.
Thekaspervote
(32,750 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)There is also the statement by one of Trump's book writers who feels that impeachment would devastate Trump. Can you imagine what televised hearings exposing the Trump crime family would do to a Narcissist?
Impeachment hearings are worth their weight in gold for 2 reasons.
1. The M$M is not our friend and Trump right now controls it. An impeachment hearing would shift control of the narrative to Democrats.
2. An impeachment hearing is a judicial proceeding and would give Congress access to the grand jury testimony where there is plenty of dirt on Trump.
Who says the House has to make an impeachment verdict and send it to the Senate? Why don't Democrats follow Lawrence Tribe's advice?
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)... it comes to controlling the government or parts of it
Winning a net few seats is not controlling the government
Lucky Luciano
(11,252 posts)jimlup
(7,968 posts)Thank you for speaking the truth.
Marcuse
(7,463 posts)Catch2.2
(629 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)Because 45 and his lieutenants will drag the U.S. completely to hell if hes not checked in some way.
And whos to say whether the 2020 election will be free and fair? FAIR PLAY from TRUMPISTS??? Put it this way they do not plan on losing.
WinstonSmith4740
(3,056 posts)NANCY!!!! Yes, impeachment is disruptive, but the American people aren't so stupid that we can't differentiate between lying about an affair and a wanna be dictator selling us out to our greatest enemy.
I don't care if McConnell won't convict in the Senate. Every Democrat should get in the well in both the House and Senate and repeat Lindsay Graham word for fucking word on how this is about "cleansing the office". The delays are causing more and more people to tune out.