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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPorsche just unveiled a huge threat to Tesla's high-end electric crown
It took awhile — years, in fact — but Porsche on Wednesday marked “the start of a new era” by finally introducing the hotly anticipated production version of the all-electric concept that wowed the crowd at the 2015 Frankfurt Motor Show.
Dubbed the Taycan, the new sedan, building in Zuffenhausen, Germany, with a base price topping $150,000, takes aim at the Tesla TSLA, +0.09% Model S. Deliveries will start before the year end.
“We promised a true Porsche for the age of electromobility — a fascinating sports car that not only excites in terms of its technology and driving dynamics, but also sparks a passion in people all over the world, just like its legendary predecessors have done,” Porsched board member Michael Steiner said ina press release. “Now we are delivering on this promise.”
Speed-wise, the numbers are staggering. The Turbo S version of the Taycan, which carries a price tag approaching $200,000, accelerates from zero to 62 mph in 2.8 seconds, with a range said to be up to 257 miles. Top speed comes in at 161 mph.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/porsche-just-unveiled-a-huge-threat-to-teslas-high-end-electric-crown-2019-09-04
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Johnny2X2X
(23,042 posts)Electric technology is far superior right now, the manufacturing efficiency gains will make it cheaper in the long run too.
Any auto manufacturer who doesn't have a clear plan to go all electric is going to be extinct in the next 2 decades.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
You're looking at the most powerful production car ever: the new Lotus Evija. Just 130 will be built, with deliveries starting in the second half of 2020, and it promises to set new benchmarks in terms of performance and track capability. The Evija is all electric and all carbon-fiber, and it makes a staggering 1,972 horsepower (2,000 metric hp). Forget 0-60 statistics, as they seem almost irrelevant, and try to wrap your head around this: Lotus says the Evija (say "EVE-eye-ah"will accelerate from 0 to 186 mph in 8.6 seconds. A Bugatti Chiron needs 13.6 seconds to reach the same speed.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/lotus-evija-ev-electric-hypercar-price-specs-photos/
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flvegan
(65,127 posts)I'll wait. "Destroys" lol.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
I love these guys who talk about top speed, when that is never really achievable.
It's mostly 0-60, quarter mile or flying mile. If you don't win by then, there's no sense continuing.
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flvegan
(65,127 posts)I love these guys that move goalposts to suit what they say.
brush
(60,543 posts)TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
If Bugattis get near the top speed, the tires need to be replaced after a few minutes. Bugattis also only let you do one or two tire changes before you have to buy new wheels to go with those tires, and that will run a boat load.
This is practical street driving.
If you don't kick someone's butt in a mile, you're not going to. And the Lotus kicks the Bugatti's ass.
All motor magazines use the 0-186MPH, 300KPH as the international standard to rate a car. Like the US uses 1/4 miles.
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brush
(60,543 posts)least I think it was here, of a video of the Bugatti on the 304 mph run. It was riveting and there was nothing about tire changing. They were going for the record and got it. The rear end gearing for top speed v 0-60 or quarter mile acceleration are quite different.
Here's the link:
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
The Bugatti used to hold the 0-186MPH records for a production car, but the Lotus destroys them.
This whole top speed thing is humorous, as people love that top number, which will never be reached.
99.995 of street racing is done in less than 1/4 mile and the rest is under the flying mile.
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brush
(60,543 posts)And I guess you know rear end gearing for off the line acceleration and top speed are different set-ups.
What can be done on the street is one thing, but to compare the cars why not see which can reach the highest top speed. I don't have a preference, just would like to know which is the fastest.
Top speed has always been a goal, which is why they do Speed Week at Bonneville. As a matter of fact, that would be a good spot for both cars to go and find out which is fastest.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts)brush
(60,543 posts)Can the Lotus do 304 or faster? 186 mph is slow compared to 304.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts)brush
(60,543 posts)the "fastest car" title. Put them on the same, equal track, same agreed upon criteria and see who wins—you know like at LeMans, Indy, Speed Week, Formula 1, NASCAR.
Settle the argument.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
My OP never mentioned top speed, yet that is some obsession.
It mentioned 0-186MPH, which is real world driving, and in that, it bests the Chiron by 5 seconds.
If you feel you need the 'win' by obsessing on top speed, well, gee you've got it. Misses my OP's point, but there.
PS. Top Speed of the vehicle means nothing, it's who comes across the drag line first. 99.95% it's the Lotus.
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brush
(60,543 posts)up differently for drag racing than for top speed. Both cars would have to be set up for one or the other then we would know which is really the fastest.
Why would you call it pathetic to set both cars up for one or the other?
Why the need to insult?
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts)brush
(60,543 posts)faster. The Koenigsegg Agera RS and the Hennessey Venom GT just to mention two.
And again, why the need to insult?
jmowreader
(52,522 posts)Veyron tires are glued to the rims, and you can only change the tires once per set of wheels.
Chiron tires mount like any other tire, and the rim is a "lifetime" service item.
I would assume Chirons and Veyrons use the same tire sizes and the Chiron is faster, so I wonder if they'll just have all their Veyron owners move to Chiron wheels at their next wheel change.
DFW
(58,473 posts)It's pretty flat and straight. The A3 has a stretch between Oberhausen and the Dutch border that has times of day when it is lightly traveled. Same goes for the A31 from Bottrop north to Emden. Scary to drive if you are not used to it, because there ARE drivers on those stretches that ARE used to it.
TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts).
The other 99% of competitions, the Bugatti would lose.
And that's if both cars go over 200MPH for a few miles, since the Lotus would have a 5 second 0-184MPH lead.
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DFW
(58,473 posts)TheBlackAdder
(29,583 posts)
ksoze
(2,068 posts)The Tesla Model 3 is the best seller and they have the right price and growing installed base. Porsche will appeal to the 2%, but Tesla found their niche with the Model 3.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Car debt has grown 75 percent since 2009 to about $1.26 trillion, or roughly 5.5 percent of GDP. More concerning: a record 7 million Americans are now three months delinquent on their payments, and subprime loans are increasing.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)
Eyeball_Kid
(7,604 posts)They make money on the upswing and the downturn. The havoc they wreak is meaningless to them.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)end.
DetlefK
(16,670 posts)What if you live in the inner city? Where the fuck are you supposed to plug in your car over night?
What electric cars really need is standardized batteries and "gas"-stations where you can take out the old battery and put in a new battery.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)If you own an EV and there is a parking garage, sockets will start to become a thing. In London and other European cities they are tapping into lamp posts for power, so people parking on the street can charge (check out a company called Ubitricity to see how that works).
Access to electricity is far more ubiquitous than gas stations. I have been driving EVs for going on 5 years now. Will NEVER go back to gasoline.
Battery swap is one of those things that looks great on paper, but doesn't work in practice. People generally drive 35-50 miles a day, which is an amount of electricity easily restored in an overnight charging session using an L1 charger (110v, comes with the car), or in 5 minutes or so at a Tesla Supercharger (150kW, 250kW next year). An L2 charger (240v/32+A) can restore it in two hours. A CHAdeMO charger (Leaf, Soul, Niro) operating at 50kW could restore it in 10-15 minutes. A CCS (Bolt) can do it in 8-10 minutes at 100kW.
The urban/apartment problem will take time to address in the US, but in most other settings using EVs is far cheaper, cleaner, and more efficient than gasoline cars. Fun to drive to.
gopiscrap
(24,426 posts)Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)
MineralMan
(149,438 posts)Which people in which city? I live in a city. I drive a car.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)major metro cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago, etc, where owning a car is quite expensive and traffic is a major headache. Obviously, not all cities have decent mass transit (mine does not).
MineralMan
(149,438 posts)I live in St. Paul, MN, in a neighborhood near the edge of the city. We do have pretty good mass transit, but most people who live in residential neighborhoods have cars. The transit system is slow and doesn't always go where you need to go in an efficient way. So, people still rely on cars.
A good question is how many inner city residents can afford an EV, much less one of those high-performance ones. A lot of my neighbors are driving 5-10 year old beater cars, because they can't afford anything else. They can't afford any of the EVs that are currently on the market, nor would they have any place to charge them.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)And pretty cheap. For average driving the Leaf, Fiat 500e, and Chevy Spark can be had for well under $10K. My first EV was a used 2012 Leaf, and cut my gasoline usage by a third. My wife and I later replaced our Sentra with a used Volt, and reduced our total gasoline usage to less than 40 gallons a year. Our total maintenance and repair costs on these cars has been less than $100 over 5 years: washer fluid, tire rotations and one flat repair.
Charging infrastructure is expanding rapidly, far faster than gasoline a century ago due to the ubiquity of electricity. If you have a driveway and an outdoor electrical socket, you have what you need for charging most EVs for average daily driving. Apartment dwellers and folks with street parking will have to wait a few years for infrastructure to catch up.
MineralMan
(149,438 posts)years in hoping EVs will become the vehicles of choice for most people. I drove used cars for decades, but shortly before turning 70, I decided never to roll under a car again to do maintenance or repairs. It just got too hard to get up again. So, I did what a lot of people do. I bought a brand new car with a brand new warranty. That was my first KIA Soul, which cost me about $15,000 and had a 5-year, 60,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty and a 10-year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I kept that for seven years and traded it in on a 2020 model with the same warranty.
I thought I was done with car repairs, but recently we needed a pickup, so I bought a 1996 Ford Ranger. I'll be back doing my own maintenance and repairs again, I suppose. Right now, I have a couple of parts for it I need to install. However, that truck will only be used for hauling and for me to get somewhere when my wife has the Soul. If I put 2500 miles on it a year, I'll be surprised.
For most people, deciding what car to buy has less to do with concerns about the environment than cost and immediate needs. As long as EVs come at a premium when new, most people will opt for fuel-burners. There are some new cars still available for about $10,000 around the model year change, and they sell quickly.
The $30,000+ Soul EV isn't going to be a top-seller for KIA. It's just not.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)Also, I wouldn’t buy a new Soul EV for $30K, when I can get a 3 year old used one for $12K, which still has 7 years left on the battery and drivetrain warranty. 110 miles of range would suit me fine for my daily driving, which is 1/3 to 1/2 that. None of the maintenance would require being on your back, and probably not even getting your hands dirty.
While individuals buy cars based mostly on up front cost, rather than long term TCO and health/environmental concerns, fleet buyers are very concerned with on-going fuel and maintenance costs.
And at some point, the environmental damage will not be something we can continue to ignore.
And yes, NEW EVs cost more, but the cost is dwindling rapidly. Parity with ICE cars is expected in 3-5 years at most. The first Tesla cost $120K in 2008, the second $65K in 2012, the current model is $40K. The first Leaf cost $43K in 2011, now it has twice the range and costs $29K.
LastDemocratInSC
(4,082 posts)
hunter
(39,638 posts)We could rent a gasoline powered car for that. Or maybe a plug-in hybrid car would work for us.
The only reason I don't drive an electric car is that I'm cheap.
The car I drive now cost less than $1,000 and easily gets over thirty miles per gallon. I rarely drive more than forty miles a week so I don't have any urge to replace it. I top off the gas tank about once a month whether it needs it or not.
It's not difficult to imagine a future where employers install electric outlets in their parking lots for employees who commute in electric cars. Many new apartment buildings are also installing outlets in their parking lots for tenants who drive electric cars. These don't even have to be high power outlets because a slow daily charge is better for the batteries than frequent fast charges.
OnDoutside
(20,850 posts)ago. I consistently do about 5,000 miles a year, and I just had it pass its inspection for another year.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,604 posts)I own a 2007 Prius that CONSISTENTLY gets 53mpg in the summer, 51mpg below 50 degrees F., with driving mostly rural. It now has around 220k miles on the odometer. Before retirement, I'd get a mileage allowance (a statewide standard) for itinerant work, and made money hand over fist because of the stingy use of gasoline. In the seven years I drove the Prius for work, I likely made an amount of money equal to half the cost of the car when it was new. At 12 years old, I have not had to replace the large battery. So far, so good.
OnDoutside
(20,850 posts)mitch96
(15,326 posts)I think that would be a big clunky problem.. Batteries are heavy and unless it could be automated it would be a problem.
I always thought instead of battery, a fast charge capacitor would work. A BIG ASS capacitor. Also a charging station that you drive into. The receiver would be on the bottom of the car and the transmitter would be at ground level... No plug.. Like the wireless iPhone charger.. but bigger.
Buck Rodgers/startrek kinda stuff...
m
Volaris
(10,940 posts)Might take 20 or thirty minutes, but still bullshit on the television and free coffee...
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)
Volaris
(10,940 posts)Or at least, doesn't exist yet...but a series of universal cylinder batteries; pull them out, replace them, and set the dead ones on a solar recharging rack till they're ready...
Individual auto makers are going to design their own batteries to their own spec...unless the government forces universality of design...and then you build the cars (all of them) around the battery technology and infrastructure, same as was done with refined gasoline...very little disruption in the way the public drives, and the dept of energy is smart enough to put a cheap working design on paper in less than a year.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)And 350 kW chargers are on the horizon.
Most companies have settled on CCS as the standard with the exception of Japan, where CHAdeMO is the standard, and Tesla in North America (Tesla Europe uses CCS). Tesla also sells a CHAdeMO adapter.
If you have a standard charging system capable of 350+ kW charging then time will become less and less of an issue. I see no problems with companies doing their own batteries as long as they can use the same chargers. Swapping batteries sounds good but you're tampering with the most expensive part of the car when you do it. A company in China has a car that does that and they've run into some issues. And not allowing companies to build their own batteries would probably hinder advancements in the field.
The industry has pretty much come to an agreement that faster chargers is the way to go. The thing to do now is make charging stations ubiquitous, both level 2 and 3 and even level 1 for places where you might park a car for long periods. I see where Harley Davidson (of all companies) is installing 24 kW CCS stations at many of their stores. That's fast enough to add about 100 miles in an hour to the more efficient cars. More stores should be doing this, especially places like restaurants located along popular routes. It's that kind of ubiquity together with 250-350 kW charging stations that will make getting around the country a non-issue in an EV.
Volaris
(10,940 posts)And will require a LOT MORE EVs on the road to make installing the chargers a profitable endeavor (I think)
I'm looking forward to it, for sure, but it seems a long way off still...
Would require 10 million more electric vehicles on the road at a minimum.. I dont think there are enough used Prius's...YET.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)Tesla will give businesses one or two of their L2 chargers free if they apply for it, all the business has to do is provide the electricity and upkeep. While of course they use the Tesla charging cable there are Tesla -> j1772 adapters you can get for a couple hundred bucks.
24 hour restaurant chains like Denny's or IHOP would be prime places to have L2/3 chargers and they're spread throughout the US. Here's a map of both chains in the US:
Note that aside from the Northern Plains and Mountain West they are neatly spaced in rural areas. A Denny's in Podunk could see a nice bump in business if they had a small 24 kW charger or two available for customers passing through. Fast food restaurants could have them too but people typically don't spend as much time there.
About that 10 million mark, we passed the 1 million mark in Sep 2018. The Edison Foundation is projecting 2 million EVs on the road by the end of 2020, 4 million by 2023, about 6.5 million by 2025 and over 10 million by 2027. That's a healthy growth rate, I wish it'd be faster but at that rate there will be time to get charging stations installed in multiple locations. Fortunately it's vastly simpler to install a charger than a gas pump (except maybe for the upcoming super-dooper chargers).
Volaris
(10,940 posts)Why aren't you the CEO of denny's or ihop... you just increased sales volume by 10 percent a year, for at least a decade lol!
Sigh... and they all wonder why we all think they suck at Capitalism heh...
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)as is McDonalds, Wal-Mart and many hotels and B&Bs. Search "destination chargers" on Google. Tesla has a program where they will install a destination charger at a qualifying small business for free. You pay for the electricity, Tesla pays for the hardware and installation.
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,947 posts)made out of real eggs.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I'm only half joking...
I find this entire discussion fascinating.
hunter
(39,638 posts)The Walmart parking lot has them. The Lowe's parking lot has them.
Tesla charging stations arrived about two years ago.
Most people charge their electric cars at home overnight because they only drive a fraction of their car's range every day.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)You must take your vehicle to a special place to get fuel. With EVs, that special place is any place there is a socket someone will let you use. That socket can be as close as your nearest power/light pole. For me, it is my car port.
Not a universal solution, but i huge jump over ICE cars. Also, way simpler (and cheaper) to install a charging station than a gas station.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)it was just to expensive to use.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)There's a decent article about it here:
https://www.teslarati.com/nio-battery-swapping-station-power-swap/
They had to issue a recall this past summer due to some catching fire
https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/27/18761067/nio-es8-electric-suv-recall-battery-fires-china
I still think 250/350 kW charging is the way to go.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)with 78 miles left on the battery. I plugged in, then my wife and I crossed the parking lot to a bookstore to browse. I checked my phone 15 minutes into the charge and the battery was at 212 miles.
At 150kW, miles go back fast. Tesla has started deploying v3 chargers that will operate at 250kW.
Zorro
(17,656 posts)They put a battery swapping site on I-5 a few years ago to support drives between LA and Sacramento, before more supercharging stations were added along that route. Don't think it was real popular, but the point is that it's something they considered.
DetlefK
(16,670 posts)Batteries are based on the concept of ion-conductors. Lithium is the smallest-possible sort of ion that can be used. Recharging a battery takes hours and always will take hours.
And I doubt that people want to wait that when gasoline is so much faster.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)My total time spent “refueling” on my home charger is the time it takes me to get out of my car and plug in. Like most people, I drive less than 50 miles in a day, so when I come home I easily have 200+ miles “in the tank”. I plug in, and an hour or so later, my charging is done.
Gasoline is:
- Expensive
- Carcinogenic
- Highly inflammable
- Smelly
- Environmentally destructive
- A substance people have fought wars over
Electricity is:
- Cheap
- Safe
- Efficient (3x-4x more than petroleum)
- Getting cleaner every day as the grid gets greener.
You don’t have to drive to a special place to re-fuel an EV. You go home and plug it in. Things are trickier for apartment dwellers, but the infrastructure will expand quickly, as electricity is everywhere.
I have been driving EVs for over four years and will never go back to gasoline.
DetlefK
(16,670 posts)- Batteries have a limited lifetime. The nanostructures on the inner surface of lithium-ion-batteries degrade over time, rendering the battery less and less efficient. -> Any battery has a limited number of charge-recharge-cycles.
- The electric energy for the cars has to come from somewhere. Switching the vehicular traffic from chemical energy (gasoline) to electric energy would increase the energy-need of a country by enough to require several new power-plants.
- Where does this energy come from?
* Option 1: Build more nuclear power-plants.
* Option 2: Build "green" energy-sources. HOWEVER these produce electric energy in a decentralized fashion, which causes severe imbalances in the electric grid, meaning that the voltage coming out of the socket is not constant over time, which is a MAJOR problem for electronics. Therefore, any larger switch to "green" energy-sources must be preceded by a massive update and overhaul of (at minimum significant portions of) the electric grid.
- Electricity is not everywhere. Only so much current can come out of an electric socket before the cable overheats and shorts out. Therefore, ANY infrastructure for supplying multiple parked cars with electricity must be based on special cables for high-power current which are currently only used for heavy-duty workshop machinery (and about 2 inches thick).
That means, additionally to the overhaul of the electric grid on the inter-city level, we would need a massive overhaul of the electric grid on the city-level.
I don't have a car, but if I had one, with my current appartment I would have to park it at the sidewalk. How am I supposed to plug it in?
EDIT: I'm not trying to argue against electric cars. I'm saying that a large-scale switch to green energy-sources and electric cars will be FUCKING EXPENSIVE.
paleotn
(20,607 posts)But the fact is, we don't have a choice unless you're over 70 and won't live long enough to feel the full impact. Luckily we do have the resources and we're smart enough to figure it out, if we're willing to do so. Humanity ending in a nuclear conflagration set off by Pakistan and India fighting over dwindling water resources is reason enough. Why do you think those two are so interested in mountainous, backward Kashmir? Water resources.
The solutions are out there and as varied as batteries to molten sodium. The best and most viable in my opinion is the old tried and true hydro pumped storage. It's the same principle as water towers providing water pressure or reservoirs generating electricity, so it requires no great leap in technology. For power storage, efficiency is round 70% since energy is needed for pumping and lost through evaporation. There are environmental trade offs, but there's been trade offs since we evolved from Australopithecus. Expensive up front and full of pitfalls we don't foresee? You bet. But it's a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Zorro
(17,656 posts)It may only charge at the equivalent rate of 3 miles/hour, but an overnight charge might be good for daily local commutes.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)you can manage 5 miles per hour, which is 50 miles after 10 hours. A standard dryer socket can be used as well, and the rate jumps to 20-25 miles per hour.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)If you have a 20 amp 110v plug in your garage or parking place that is on its own breaker it can easily be converted into 240v, you don't need new cables or wiring, just a 20 amp 240v breaker and a 6-20 plug, connect your white neutral on to the breaker and just like that you're drawing 16 amps @ 240. I've done this on two outlets and it works like a charm, it adds 15 miles/hour to a Model 3, plenty for an overnight charge. No need to add new outlets and run thick wiring, that will start getting expensive.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)Will definitely have to try it out.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)I'm not trying to argue against electric cars. I'm saying that a large-scale switch to green energy-sources and electric cars will be FUCKING EXPENSIVE.
No argument. However, not switching to green energy sources will catastrophic to the environment and ruinously expensive to the world economy.
To start out, I am not trying to be censorious of your views, I simply wish to correct what I see as misconceptions, based upon my own personal experiences. Assume we are having a pizza (my treat) and chatting about this.
- Batteries have a limited lifetime. The nanostructures on the inner surface of lithium-ion-batteries degrade over time, rendering the battery less and less efficient. -> Any battery has a limited number of charge-recharge-cycles.
Modern Li-Ion batteries are much more robust that those used in cell phones and laptops in the past. Battery Management Software (BMS) maximizes pack life by adjusting charge rate and temp down to the individual cell. Typically, unlike cell phones and laptops, EVs are not charged to 100%, then run down to near to 0%, instead they are designed to charge to 90%, and you usually only use 20%-30% of the charge during daily driving. You can charge to 100% when needed for max range, but daily driving does not require this. Yes, a battery has a limited number of cycles, but it does not simply stop working as it ages, it simply loses a bit of capacity. So far, in EVs with BMS for (Tesla, Bolt, i3, and several others) battery fade is 1% or less per year. The batteries are warranted against excess loss of capacity for 8 years or 100K miles (120K for Tesla long range batteries). So, worst case, after 10 years and 150K miles of driving your 325 mile range falls to 292 miles. In 20 years, that would fall to 260 miles. EV drive trains will hit cost parity with ICE in the next 4 years, and be cheaper after that.
Of course, ranges have been going up as battery density improves. Tesla's Model S is now EPA rated at 370 miles. Tesla recently acquired Ultracapacitor maker Maxwell Technologies who have also been making improvements in Li-Ion battery anodes, yielding 20% greater energy density and doubling charge cycles. This would push Tesla ranges to over 440 miles, thus a 10% loss after ten years would still give you 400 miles of range.
- The electric energy for the cars has to come from somewhere. Switching the vehicular traffic from chemical energy (gasoline) to electric energy would increase the energy-need of a country by enough to require several new power-plants.
We are going to have to build new power plants regardless of EV adoption, but EVs are not the problem, it is the retirement of coal-fired plants. Actually, electricity demand has been pretty stable the last decade, mostly due to conservation efforts (currently being sabotaged by Trump). Yes, EVs will require more electricity, but the demand is offset by three major factors:
1) Most EVs will charge at night when there is plenty of spare capacity, so we will not outstrip generating capacity anytime soon.
2) An increase in EVs, means a decrease in gasoline/diesel. As it takes 4-6kWh to create 1 gallon of fuel from well to tank, that demand will fall as demand for petroleum fuels falls. Each gasoline car replaced with an EV means 500-800 gallons of fuel not needed, so that translates into a reduction of 2,000-4,800kWh of electricity demand per EV.
3) 40% of EV buyers opt for solar power on their homes, which offsets EV demand from the grid. That number will probably fall as more people buy EVs who don't own/rent a home, but again, the infrastructure will catch up. 100 years ago, people looking for gasoline generally bought it at pharmacies and hardware stores.
* Option 2: Build "green" energy-sources. HOWEVER these produce electric energy in a decentralized fashion, which causes severe imbalances in the electric grid, meaning that the voltage coming out of the socket is not constant over time, which is a MAJOR problem for electronics. Therefore, any larger switch to "green" energy-sources must be preceded by a massive update and overhaul of (at minimum significant portions of) the electric grid.
We have to modernize our grid regardless. Utilities have been neglecting grid maintenance and upgrades for decades, leaving us in the sorry state we are in now. But electrical power generation IS becoming decentralized (which I see as a good thing) whether utilities like it or not. They will either adapt, or die, they have no choice. Also, an upgraded and decentralized grid makes it easier for them to run. The utility/auto business model is changing, and cannot be stopped, anymore than blacksmiths and buggy whip makers could stop the automobile.
- Electricity is not everywhere. Only so much current can come out of an electric socket before the cable overheats and shorts out. Therefore, ANY infrastructure for supplying multiple parked cars with electricity must be based on special cables for high-power current which are currently only used for heavy-duty workshop machinery (and about 2 inches thick).
Yes, I know. However, most charging does not require high current connections. L1 charging (standard 110v/16A circuit) meets most people's needs, restoring 5 miles per hour of charging. L2 chargers can use a standard dryer socket (240v/30A) and restore around 20 miles per hour of charging. If you plug in when you come home then you have 8-10 hours charging time.
Superchargers are installed in commercial zones that already have access to industrial grade power. I have three within 25 miles of my house, so the odds that all would be taken out in a power outage is small.
Electricity is far more ubiquitous than gas stations. And because I get this question a lot: No, you can't charge in a blackout, but gas stations can't pump gas either. Also, gas stations run out of gasoline fast in emergency situations, even with power on. With an EV, if there's electricity, you can charge.
That means, additionally to the overhaul of the electric grid on the inter-city level, we would need a massive overhaul of the electric grid on the city-level.
True, but we need the overhaul now anyway, as utilities have allowed the grid to fall into disrepair. We also need to harden the grid against extreme weather and cyber-attacks. Again, the bill for a half-century of infrastructure neglect is now coming due. The money will have to be spent.
I don't have a car, but if I had one, with my current appartment I would have to park it at the sidewalk. How am I supposed to plug it in?
Good question. London and other EU cities asked the same questions and a number of solutions are being examined and adopted.
One way is to simply install sockets on light poles and use a product like Ubitricity:
https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/
Sockets are also now being installed in parking garages, shopping centers, and restaurants:
https://www.chargepoint.com/about/news/mcdonalds-and-novacharge-deploy-chargepoint-network-ev-charging-stations/
Also, chargers can be installed for employees to use while they work (we have installed one where we work (family business with 100+ employees) and plan to add more as employees switch to EVs.
A lot of the logistics remain to be worked out, but then the current gasoline system took half a century to build. EVs will take a lot less time as 80% of the "transport" infrastructure is already there. Charging stations don't require regular visits from tanker trucks full of electrons.
EVs are not a panacea, but they are a massive improvement over ICE. The shift is coming, and a LOT of business models will have to change as well.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)An important part of this switchover will be the increased use of home solar and (in some areas) wind power that will help mitigate the extra strain on the grid.
And even when car batteries have degraded too much for practical use in a car they can be used for powerwalls in homes. It's not like they're not headed to the landfill.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)instead of buying new electric ones.
The conversion would be cheaper than a new bus, would eliminate the polluting part and most of the parts that require expensive maintenance. Also, the city/county would then have large capacity rolling batteries for civil emergencies, or to provide storage to stabilize the grid (getting income from utility companies). With 400K+ School buses in U.S., at 160kWh per bus, that is 64GWh of energy on tap. Add solar to the mix and the fuel savings becomes even greater. Schools have a LOT of roof space.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)Honestly I have no idea, but I'm sure buying a large fleet of new electric buses would be expensive.
Do you see mechanics in the not-too-distant future start shifting away from doing expensive engine/transmission rebuilds into electric conversions? Or is it still going to be too expensive for all but the devoted hobbyist?
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)A similar eBus would cost $120-200K more (the variables are range and options). So, simply retrofitting existing diesels would be cheaper than buying a new one. The costs would be lower in the future due to falling battery prices and recycling battery packs EVs.
Diesel buses get about 6mpg, whereas eBuses get 3x-4x equivalent.
The issue is discussed in this video by EV fan boys (father and son) Zac & Jessy in this video podcast from this past week.
https://m.
Refitting will definitely be cheaper, and get cheaper.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)Efficiency drops, so you lose about 20% of the power. It really doesn't take me more than 30 seconds to plug in my car.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)The car can go to the charging site on its own and just park.
mitch96
(15,326 posts)BMW is testing out it’s induction (wireless) device in, where else California. A pad is mounted on the floor of the garage or charging station. The car just rolls over it’s ground pad to the proper location. No wires. Full charge in 3 ½ hours.
This makes sense. All they have to do is make it faster. Time will tell...
M
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Meadowoak
(6,534 posts)Is enough of a demand for them.
Dennis Donovan
(31,059 posts)Been a Porsche fan since being a teen.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)There is this narrative that EVs only compete against other EVs, which simply isn't true. The vast majority of trade ins for EV purchases are cars like the Camry, Prius, Accura, C Class, and 3 series, vehicles that burn gasoline. There are a small percentage of early adopters who are now trading in their Nissan Leaves, BMW i3s, Fiat 500e, etc, for an EV with longer range (overwhelmingly the Model 3 right now).
The major reason there is a lot of talk about EVs, but very few actual EVs manufactured, is that legacy automakers know that to adopt the EV model is to lose the money train. Dealerships also hate them with a passion as the sales model Tesla is using spells doom for them, and their de facto monopolies.
The Porsche Taycan will appeal to Porsche loyalists with lots of money. But at $150K+, there are much better EVs to be had for less money.
uponit7771
(93,072 posts)Quemado
(1,262 posts)Go to minute 4:56
Normally Porsche makes a nicer-looker car. Dropped the ball this time.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)produced styling duds before (remember the 9x4?). The trend in car styling seems to be spoilers on the back for aerodynamics, I have always viewed them as ugly, but some people really love them, especially the performance types that Porsche seems to be aiming the car for.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)The best Tesla Model S nips their Turbo model at half the price and the upcoming Roadster absolutely blows it away for the same price.
https://www.tesla.com/roadster
Even worse a Performance Model 3 at a paltry $56,000 will get you nearly the same specs as the Porsche only with a better range (>300 miles).
I seriously doubt the Taycan is keeping Elon up at night. But hey the more the merrier, anything that keeps EVs front and center in the public conscience is good. Expect some real disruption in the next decade.
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,947 posts)they will charge the batteries without having to plug into an outlet.
tinrobot
(11,621 posts)The amount of solar energy falling on the roof is tiny in comparison to the huge battery in the car.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)An 8 kW array will produce 20kWh-30kWh, which is enough to drive an EV 75-120 miles depending on your EV. That is 2-3x the average American’s daily driving needs.
Other factors are the angle and direction your roof faces.
For the most part, you don’t drain your battery every day, just as you don’t run you car to empty.
I have a fairly substantial array, and power my home and cars with sunlight. In ten years, solar has dropped from $8-$9 per watt installed to under $3, and the price continues to fall. The average PV panel was 185 watts and is now 350 watts. 1/3 the price and twice the power in a decade is pretty impressive. I see the same improvement in the next ten years (or less).
tinrobot
(11,621 posts)Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)I stand corrected. Yeah, the roof of the car would take a LONG time.
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,947 posts)the porcupine has the pricks on the outside.
hatrack
(62,956 posts).
fescuerescue
(4,475 posts)These are not aimed at middle-class consumers.
It's aimed at the 0.1%'ers who will snap them up for bragging rights.
machoneman
(4,128 posts)would buy a tomato if it has a Porsche nameplate symbol on the top!
Seriously, they will sell a bunch to Porsche fans yet production will be limited to only a few thousand, at first. They already do this with top end 911's like the GT3. Heck, they actually build road racers for sale to the public in very limited quantities.
Point is, they are no threat to Tesla's far cheaper and almost as quick electric cars.
bigtree
(91,894 posts)In Harris’ proposal, the California senator promises to help the country reach an aggressive set of environmental benchmarks. Her plan calls for phasing out sales of gas-powered cars by 2035, mandating carbon-neutral building standards and steering utilities to renewable sources of energy.
By 2045, the United States will have “a clean, carbon neutral economy” by “using progressive year-on-year benchmarks that target individual sectors, including energy, transportation, infrastructure, industry and agriculture that meet appropriate goals for reducing emissions,” Harris’ plan pledges.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article234670837.html
a kennedy
(33,913 posts)bells and whistles for about 20,000 or even 15,000?? DAMN.
Hermit-The-Prog
(36,631 posts)There are many revenue streams that are being protected. Astroturfing is used to keep people believing the myths about EVs, so they'll keep feeding those revenue streams.
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)That’s how I started. You can pick up a Leaf for under $10K, or a Volt for under $18K (though it’s a plug in hybrid and gets 38-53 miles electric before the gas generator kicks in).
If you just need a reliable car to get to work/school, there are a decent number of affordable choices.
Next week is National Drive Electric Week, and there will be events all over the country where you can see EVs, ride along and ask questions.
Go here to find one near you:
https://driveelectricweek.org/events.php#search-event
Demonaut
(9,495 posts)
littlemissmartypants
(28,433 posts)
sl8
(16,657 posts)Elon Musk challenges Porsche with Tesla Model S at Nürburgring
liberal N proud
(61,123 posts)NickB79
(19,976 posts)257 miles? How cute!
It's also got specs that put Porsche to shame.
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/04/elon-musk-tesla-roadster-range-will-be-above-1000-km/
Miguelito Loveless
(5,052 posts)Look for an event near you:
https://driveelectricweek.org/events.php#search-event
MineralMan
(149,438 posts)the average car buyer? I'm not seeing it at all.
Zorro
(17,656 posts)Their tech will filter down to less expensive cars.
I rented a RAV4 about a month ago and it has a lot of newer lane-maintaining capabilities.
I Steve a 2020 KIA Soul. It has those advanced features too, and cost $20,000. I like it very much. It's not an EV. The Soul EV will start at over $30k. Batteries are expensive. Still, the KIA Soul EV is relevant to car buyers. Why not talk about it?
Zorro
(17,656 posts)But I have no problem if you want to discuss the KIA Soul EV.
Hyundai is also building an EV now.
MineralMan
(149,438 posts)of how EVs will change the world. I'm not seeing how that will happen, frankly. Let's look at the KIA Soul EV, for example:
The base trim KIA Soul sells for about $19,000. For that, you get almost 30 mpg in mixed driving. The Soul EV will cost over $30,000. people buy cars like the Soul partly because they're inexpensive. If you have the base trim Soul, the LX trim, you also don't have to have a charging station where you park your car to keep it charged up. You just fill it's 14.3 gallon tank at any place that sells gasoline. The gasoline-fueled Soul has an unlimited driving range, since there are gas stations everywhere.
So, where is the incentive for anyone to buy the Soul EV? I'm not seeing it. It costs tons more, you need to install charging equipment in your garage (assuming you have a garage), and your driving range is limited. Before EVs become everyone's choice, those issues are going to have to be resolved.
Not everyone lives near mass transit that can efficiently take you to your workplace and bring you home in a reasonable amount of time. That's why everyone who can has a car.
For example, my wife and I are going to a Minnesota Twins game today. We could drive there in 20 minute, but parking is a hassle, so we're going to drive to downtown St. Paul and take the light rail to the game. If we're lucky, that trip will take 50 minutes, but is more likely to take more than an hour. Each way. Now, we don't care, and riding the light rail is fun, anyhow. But, if we had to do that on a daily basis, it would be unworkable.
I'm not even going to mention the cost of generating the electricity needed to charge all those EVs if everyone had one. Electricity isn't free. It has a cost. In most cases, it also requires burning fossil fuel in today's world.
Will EVs someday become what we all use? Probably. But Porsche and Tesla won't be the ones making the vehicles most people drive. That's certain.
Zorro
(17,656 posts)There's the federal tax credit of $7500, and apparently Minnesota is considering a $2500 rebate for the purchase of an EV. So there's a potential $10k off the $30k price.
One pays 1/3-1/5 the cost for electricity over the cost of gasoline for the equivalent MPG.
Electric cars don't require the routine maintenance costs required for gas cars. No oil changes, no radiator flushes, no belts/hoses to replace, etc.
Range is a key issue for the current KIA Soul EV, since it is apparently limited to ~100 miles on electricity (although the new KIA EV Soul reportedly will have 200+ miles of range). Range is also affected by weather, with cold weather further reducing range. However, battery technology is improving substantially, with current Teslas capable of 300+ miles between charges.
Rstrstx
(1,601 posts)Many states offer additional incentives or rebates if you buy an EV so you could end up effectively paying over $10k less than the sticker price. Also many places (like mine) let you choose electricity plans that use 100% renewable energy if you want it. And no, electricity isn't free but it's a lot cheaper than gas. It costs me about $1.80 in electricity to drive 80 miles. I also don't have to have oil changes, spark plug replacements, worry about timing belts, etc. The mechanical parts of an EV are much less complex than a traditional gas car. And my charging equipment consists entirely of a plug in the carport together with the cable that came with the car.
I agree that it will be several years (but not decades) before EVs become practical for many people. But for those that can afford the upfront extra cost of the vehicle they will see a good bit of that recouped over the years due to lower operating and maintenance costs.
I'm also not convinced that Tesla won't remain the top EV maker in the upcoming years. They're far ahead of other car makers and keep innovating; VW seems the most likely to challenge them in the next 5 years if they are truly serious about their stated goals. Meanwhile Tesla keeps cranking out tens of thousands of cars a month, which will go into hyperdrive when their Shanghai plant opens.
Zorro
(17,656 posts)Porsche chose Niagara Falls to introduce its new Taycan all-electric sports car on Wednesday. The thundering water flow can turn out 2.5 million kilowatts of hydropower — a powerful source of sustainable energy and a potent symbol for a product that aspires to be nearly pollution-free.
Another, more subtle reason for the backdrop: the two statues of Nikola Tesla looking down on the festivities, one from the Canadian side, the other from the U.S. side. Niagara Falls is the site where Tesla first tested his controversial alternating current electrical distribution system in the late 19th century, so there are Tesla memorials all over the place.
The Taycan is a billion-dollar bet on an electric-drive future, the first in what the high-end German car company hopes will be a long line of battery-powered high-performance cars and sport utility vehicles. And it is perhaps the most potent challenger yet to electric-car king Tesla Inc.
First, though, the car must pass muster with Porsche’s high-end customers and their sky-high expectations. With the Taycan, the company seeks a reputation for quality and performance on par with that of internal-combustion classics such as its storied 911 series. And its reception here in California — which accounts for 25% of Porsche sales in the U.S. — will be crucial.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-09-04/here-it-is-the-taycan-porsches-first-all-electric-sports-car