A Roving Mind

[H2O Man]

“Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.”
Isaac Asimov; The Roving Mind


I think that we can all agree that Trump's base is a cult. I'm not speaking of those in Washington who dislike the president, but are willing to publicly humiliate themselves for job security. Or those republicans across the country who don't think Trump is a “real” republican, but always vote along party lines.

Rather, I am thinking of those who attend his rallies, where they behave in the manner of religious experience, with all sense of individuality lost. The crowd becomes an individual organism, swaying and shouting praise in veneration to the object of their devotion. They are, as Asimov says, the most ignorant, uneducated, unimaginative, and unthinking among us. And they seek to force their god upon us.

I was speaking to an old friend last night, an aging hippie who helped finance my social activism for many decades. As Thanksgiving approaches, he dreads talking to his brother-in-law, who he describes as “aggressively stupid.” My friend said few things are as annoying as when, if he points out something bad Trump is doing, the guy says, “They all do it.”

My first response to such nonsense would be to ask who “they” are? The most likely answer is, “You know – all of them.” This provides the opportunity to point out that there have actually been but three past administrations with anything similar: Nixon formed his own “intelligence/dirty tricks” unit known as the plumbers; Reagan and Bush 1 had the National Security Council engage in illegal, hidden “foreign policies”; and Dick Cheney formed a Nixon-style intelligence unit run through the Office of the Vice President. By no coincidence, in each example, people were convicted of felony charges. This tends to take the fuzz of the “they all do it” peach.

Next, ask if the person values the Constitution? Is it more or less valuable than political party affiliation? When was the last time they read the Constitution? Specifically, the part about impeachment? Have they read the Federalist Papers? Specifically, numbers 65 and 66, which contain the Founding Fathers' thoughts on impeachment? What exactly do they say about presidents who have unseemly relationships with foreign powers, for personal advantage? Call it speculation on my part if you will, but I'd bet $10 to a penny they haven't read these documents.

I'd ask them to explain what exactly they believe the word “bribery” is intended to mean in the Impeachment Clause? Next, I'd ask them to describe why the Founding Fathers substituted the words “high crimes and misdemeanors” for the previously proposed “maladministration” in the Constitution? What is the difference? What advantages and disadvantages are contained in each?

My friend cracked up laughing, and said that I could talk circles around most people. I said that's a shame, at least in my opinion, because every citizen should be interested in and educated about the Constitution – what each section means, why it was included, and how we can best use it to maintain our democratic republic.

In my opinion, impeachment is intended to not only protect the nation from any individual action by a president – though there ar individual actions that should truly disqualify any person from holding that office – but more frequently, to determine that a series of actions show that the president simply cannot be trusted to not engage in future maladministration.

Enjoy this week, for we are both witnessing and participating in history.
H2O Man

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. Yup. "they all do it" is simply unbelievably lazy, isn't it?

For trump's cult, I actually wonder how they have enough sense to get out of bed, get themselves dressed and feed themselves. It is a truly special kind of stupid they possess. But it is more than that - the willful ignorance of mental laziness to the point that their working brains have atrophied into something the size of a pea.

[H2O Man]

2. Right.

It highlights the dangers of attempting shortcuts to logic and rational thought.

[mopinko]

3. bribery, according the the trumpkin in my life, who happens to be

a defrocked lawyer, insists that the statute applies only to u.s. gove officials, and not other governments.

yes, he waves his golden pigskin at me, even tho he, himself, set it on fire.

they live among us.

[H2O Man]

4. He obviously doesn't know

(or wants to ignore) that the Founding Fathers purposely did not restrict the Impeachment Clause to any statutes. There weren't a heck of a lot of federal statutes at the time, nor did they intend state laws to play any role in impeachment.

Perhaps this defrocked fellow could get a job with Trump?

[mopinko]

13. yeah, he also thinks it takes a crime to impeach.

and roger stone was indicted for the crime of protecting spanky's presidency from the big bad liberals.

a follower of scott adams. who creeps me the fuck out.

[NCLefty]

21. Sounds dreadful. I have expelled all Republicans from my bubble.

It sure is easier.

[mopinko]

24. well, it's touchy.

but i am very connected to this person, and other things make my tolerance worthwhile. sometimes, tho....

[Karadeniz]

5. I'm going to make a note of your points. Thanks!❤

[H2O Man]

11. Oh, that's nice!

I appreciate that!

And if you or anyone else wants more, I could go on and on.

[Timewas]

48. Always

I am always interested in your writing and read all of them, not always able to respond but have read them and will continue to do so.. Thank You

[malaise]

6. You nailed it

The LA Times has a good opinion piece today
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-11-17/trumps-ukraine-scandal-microcosm-bad-president

Ukraine scandal is a microcosm of what we already know: Trump’s presidency is a failure

In a nutshell it concludes that this is Don the Con and nothing will change.

[H2O Man]

12. Outstanding op-ed!

Thank you for that link!

Systems, as Malcolm X taught, can only produce what they are made of. He used the example of chickens never laying duck eggs. In the current example, we have the most rotten of eggs in the administration -- incapable of producing anything good.

[malaise]

25. It complements your OP

[coeur_de_lion]

29. What we do know is likely the tip of the iceberg

He runs these scams on several nations probably.

If what we see is really bad what we don't see is probably so much worse.

Once he's out of office it will all be aired out. Chilling to me to think about the crimes that are hidden, since the ones that are now out in the open are so much worse than we've ever seen in a president.

[malaise]

31. Yep

that's my bet - I hope Merkel writes a book when she retires.

[H2O Man]

45. I agree.

People generally behave in consistent ways. Thus, we'd be as surprised if we learned Jimmy Carter was a thief, as if we learned that Trump ever did something good. But we will not be surprised when we learn of more corruption on his part.

[coeur_de_lion]

7. A lady in my town

who lives just around the corner from me is always posting odd things on her facebook that "prove" Nancy Pelosi is inventing a conspiracy theory out of thin air. Other things she posts include:

1) Adam Schiff refuses to let Elise Stefanik question witnesses
2) The supposed name of the whistle blower
3) Hunter & Joe Biden are still on the board at Burisma
4) Adam Schiff refuses to release transcripts
5) Adam Schiff is the whistle blower
6) Nancy Pelosi using smear tactics against the trump

Luckily she isn't all that nice in person either so I just avoid her. She does like dogs. She isn't a completely useless person.

But it disgusts me to have "one of them" who live so close.

[mopinko]

14. yup. that's exactly what they are selling this week.

such lemmings.

[H2O Man]

15. I've likely told you

that I have old high school friends on facebook, who support Trump. I still like them -- not as buddies who visit each other or anything, but as guys who I've known forever. Few of them did well in high school, much less attended college. But they are intelligent in other ways -- fishing, farming, auto mechanics, etc. They have worked hard their whole adult lives, and have little to show for it.

They resent "government," and like that Trump is -- in their minds -- anti-establishment. They know this isn't the country we grew up in. But they aren't able to understand who their enemy is. So I am willing to talk to them. I'm not saying that I've changed all of their minds, or even the majority. But, little by little, I am getting some of them to see things a little differently. And we know from Malcolm X that in order for people to behave differently, you have to first help them think differently.

[coeur_de_lion]

26. No talking to this one I'm afraid

She behaves so strangely whenever I run into her that even if I didn't know she was a trump nut I would not engage with her other than to say a polite hello. Once at a party she threatened to punch her husband for talking to me and my husband and I honestly could not tell if she was kidding or not!

She's married to a nice guy. He was my neighbor for 10 years. They married late in life. I'm awfully glad he is happy. But she is not wrapped too tight.

[paleotn]

23. She's no Hitler...

but even Hitler loved his dogs.

[coeur_de_lion]

27. I feel badly for her

But I'm content to allow her to walk by without engaging her.

[paleotn]

30. I do too.

Tough situation we find ourselves in these days. With me it's family. We simply don't speak. It's mutual. Maybe someday things will change and we can all get back to some semblance of normal.

[coeur_de_lion]

53. I think it will take

a conviction of trump and even then they will say he was framed.

[lunatica]

8. Bringing it closer to home helps a lot too.

Asking all these questions regarding their boss, or any boss. Ask them if their boss took money from the company and jeopardized it just for their own monetary gain, say to buy himself a boat or to get his wife and family a more expensive house with a swimming pool. How would they feel if their boss didn’t care about their family’s health needs. Especially if someone in the family needed care for permanent things like diabetes or a heart condition. Ask them how they would deal with their boss lying to them about things being better in the future if only they take a pay cut now. Would they do the equivalent of impeaching that boss?

Everything Trump and the Republicans do is something they can personally relate to in their private lives if their boss did it. You can do that about school shootings or drugs or financial issues, especially if someone is benefitting while they struggle.

When your reality extends only as far as your immediate needs then the examples have to be drawn from their reality. No lofty ideas penetrate such realities.

[H2O Man]

34. Great point!

I have a few old high school friends who support Trump. One admits he can't stand Trump as a person, but he hates "government." He is sure that the Democrats are coming after his guns, which he keeps for hunting. I believe they were his father's. I do not try to address delusionary thinking, until after we reach a bit firmer ground.

But, with others (also friends with him), I ask questions such as: do you think Trump would have been your friend, and hung out, when you were teens? Do you think he'd seriously consider socializing with you today? Engage in discussions about the meaning of life, and value your opinion? So why do you think he gives a shit about you?

[lunatica]

50. Yes. It has to feel personal or they don't get it

They haven’t reached the stage of being able to relate to people outside their tribe yet. Empathy and sympathy are things they can only feel for those closest to them.

[PWPippinesq]

9. I enjoy YOUR roving mind, H2O Man.

And your clear and informative perspective always so well presented. Thank you.

[H2O Man]

35. Thank you!

I appreciate that! And I'm glad if you enjoyed this OP/thread.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

10. Asimov is one of my favorites

Thank you for this post. Great points that will definitely help this holiday, but I have some brushing up to do.
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[H2O Man]

36. Thanks!

I only have one person in my extended family that supports Trump. It's possible that I'll see him over the holiday, but we never talk about national politics. He's good on state and local politics, though. Him and I went to a Ringo concert last year, and had a blast.

I hope that you & yours have a nice holiday!

[saidsimplesimon]

16. "both"?

Every author loves a critic? We are "all" on this boat that floats.

[bobbieinok]

17. Visiting German U prof said Germans refused to go to mass church meetings---reminded of Nazi rallys

This was to a group of mostly Pentecostals who have emotional large, long 'praise and worship' services.

A student there said---after watching Riefenstahl's film Triump of the Will---that organizers of Pentecotal services could learn a lot from watching that film!!

ETA mid 90s we heard there was quite a run of people wanting to rent that film from video rental stores!!

[H2O Man]

37. When I was a

little boy -- ages up to 4 -- one of our neighbors was a Holocaust Survivor. Virtually all the rest of his family was murdered in the death camps, I learned later. He was a kind and gentle man, a talented artist. I remember him for giving me a stuffed animal, and my older siblings gifts. He gave my oldest brother a coin collection.

We moved shortly after I turned four, and I never saw him again. So I learned about his personal history before I learned about WW2.

I think of him when I see things in the news, or in person, that remind me of the nazis. "Crowd psychology" has always interested me, though lately, I find it disturbing more frequently. Trump's rallies, for example. They are the exact opposite potential than, say, the Women's March on DC when Trump took office.

[Uncle Joe]

18. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread H2O Man.

[H2O Man]

38. Thank you!

Keep on fighting the Good Fight, my Friend!

[Uncle Joe]

60. Likewise.

[llmart]

19. Thoughtful and thought provoking post.

I always enjoy your ruminations, H2O Man. However, right now, the one thing that I will take with me and use is the phrase "aggressively stupid". Perfect description.

[H2O Man]

39. Thank you!

I think we've all encountered one or more of the aggressively stupid sub-species. It can be frustrating to try to engage in conversation with them. (I find that being a hermit more relaxing these days.)

[lunatica]

51. I've used the term

Defensively aggressive since I used it in a class paper for Anthropology in college The paper was actually about families with economic hardship and how it impacts their lives, from the education they get to the jobs they get. All three are intimately tied to each other.

[smirkymonkey]

20. Thank you H2O Man.

Very thought provoking and insightful post.

[H2O Man]

40. Thanks, Buddy!

I hope you enjoy the upcoming hearings, and are here to discuss them! And I would not be surprised if some other information leaks .....things that will cause severe discomfort for Trump& Co.

[Hekate]

22. Asimov's books were part of my formative years, so thanks for the epigraph...

And thanks for your thoughts on the history we are living through. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[H2O Man]

41. I hope that

you & yours have a great Thanksgiving, too!

I have long liked Asimov ....reminds me of things I learned from some of the better classes I took many years ago. Reading the works of the great minds I was exposed to helps keep me rooted these days.

[Me.]

28. I Feel Compelled To Agree With Your Friend

You can talk circles around most people...

[H2O Man]

42. And every so often,

I might actually know a bit of what I'm talking about. The majority of the tim, though, I rely totally upon the Irish DNA to help me bluff.

Enjoy this week's hearings!

[Me.]

49. Really Looking Forward To Them

Was surprised at how riveted I was last wek

[Kurt V.]

32. Asimov is referring to those that would guide and lead us. the rest of the trumpers

i engage i do with compassion and what i feel as sorrow

[H2O Man]

43. So long as

you include those in elected office in DC, in state houses, and the rabid-right church leaders, I'm with you. The sheep are simply unconsciouse organic machines.

[Kali]

33. GREAT Asimov quote!

[H2O Man]

44. Thank you!

[MartyTheGreek]

46. I just googled today: How do Cults End...

We all know cults don't end too well and Trump loves drama and he's skilled at capturing the news cycle like the Fake Health scare to use up the air on Saturday's lost GOP election results for LA a very red state. I think we know, that he knows, he's politically going down so hence residence move to Florida and other last minute actions like pardoning war criminals. The expert in the article I found this morning says that Cult leaders need to constantly keep firing up the base so put on your seatbelts and hope that these Cult followers fade away so we can get on with healing our country. I think we're gonna need a new holiday or one big parade to celebrate the end of this fake fascist Camelot.

From the article: Trump, Cults and GOP

...four key characteristics. They 1) espouse an all-encompassing belief system; 2) exhibit excessive devotion to the leader; 3) avoid criticism of the group and its leader; and 4) feel disdain for non-members. That all sounds unnervingly familiar.

"I think you have to look at the effect of Trump's behavior and language on his base. He readily ridicules and chastises people. He readily pushes people aside if they're not worshipping him. We've all seen the videos of his aides praising him to high heaven. That's the kind of adulation cult leaders expect and demand."

https://psmag.com/news/a-sociologist-explains-the-similarities-between-cults-and-trumps-gop

[H2O Man]

47. Cults are curious,

and frequently dangerous to their members and others. I remember talking about the Jim Jones thing with Rubin Carter. And we discussed crowds, since we both had experiences in the ring, being surrounded by such organisms.

I remember that Lennon decided to have the Beatles stop touring, in large part from his experience of witnessing how he could influence it to make a wave by merely moving his guitar. Certainly a strange experience, especially if one had taken some LSD. Jim Morrison did some experiments with crowds, too, though alcohol eventually got in the way.

Cults are much like a crowd (some are small, some large), but with the added influences that you note. I don't know if Trump has actually studied cults, but he has certainly used his knowledge of crowds -- including the televison audience -- to his best benefit. But now he is faltering, knows he is not up to the presidency, and wants to do the most harm to our country before he is removed from office. As a narcissist, he will think he can control the crowds of his followers. But there, too, he will not be up to his fantasies. But a lot of people will likely suffer as a result.

[Ingersollman]

52. Asimov

was a genius! He had a way with words that I sorely miss.

[H2O Man]

55. Can't argue with that.

It's good, I think, when so much ignorance is blabbered in the media by republicans, to keep in mind that there have been Great Minds throughout human history .....and that there still actually are some among us. But they are rarely in the news, for they do not seek the spot light.

[malthaussen]

54. But "they" would just walk away, unconvinced.

I have a quirk: I don't like it when people say "feel" when they mean "think." The processes of each are so completely different.
But in certain cases -- when one is "following his gut," or "just knows" something, "feel" would be exactly appropriate, since they are doing no thinking at all. But alas, they're the ones who will often say something is their "opinion," when clearly they haven't done any of the work to hold an opinion. "I believe" is also a good one: belief does not necessitate thought, and indeed, thought may interfere with it.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

56. True.

The first supervisor I had in human services always focused on the distinction between "think" and "feel" when workers submitted their paperwork documenting interactions with clients. I try to keep that in mind when I write anything these days, though at my age, I am prone to forgetting and making errors.

Likewise, my years of expperience have resulted in a distinct understanding of "opinion." That is in large part from so many times I testified in court on various cases over the decades. In court, as you know, only a limite number of people are allowed to voice an "opinion." To be able to do so, they must be recognized by the court as having the necessary background of education and experience that can justify deeming them as "experts." Those lacking these qualifications are not allowed to voice their "opinion," since what they would actually be expressing is their "bias," due to lack of the necessary education and experience. I'd note that over the years, many (including on this forum) have found my pointing this out rather obnoxious, but that's a priceI'm willing to pay.

All of this brings me back to my conversations with that first supervisor. Most of the clients I worked with didn't actually have "opinions" on many topics. But they had a bias on many topics, based entirely upon their feelings.

[malthaussen]

57. That's a useful life-lesson, in my opinion. :)

[H2O Man]

58. My older daughter

is currently going for her big degree in a great university. Two weeks ago, she called me after one of her classes. She said the information they were studying was new to the other studnts, but she immediately recognized it as something I used to talk to her and her siblings about when they were little. She said that her level of understanding of it had increased as a young adult in class, but thanked me for introducing her to such concepts as a youngster.

I said that to say that at my age, passing "life-lessons" on to the generations that follow my own tends to be the most important thing I do.

[malthaussen]

62. That's what Elders do, eh?

My brother is Penobscot, and we used to hit a lot of powwows around SE PA. Friend of his was Lenape. She was around 48, and was bragging about how she was going to be an Elder soon. I'm two years older than her, so I teased her by telling her it wasn't anything special. She couldn't believe I was fifty.

-- Mal

[nolabear]

59. I resent it bitterly too. How DARE they. But they are deeply paranoid.

“They all do it” means 45 and ilk are just being honest and open about what goes on behind the curtain in government everywhere. And to a lesser extent it’s true. BUT IT SHOULDN’T BE THE GOAL! The whole point of theConstitution and tripartite system is to guard against it. The fact that these fools are proud of the get-everything-you-can-and-screw-everybody-you-can mentality speaks to just how important leadership that tries to move us out of that primitive approach is.

[H2O Man]

61. Thank you!

When my children were little, they learned one important lesson quickly: if I was addressing their behavior, the worst thing they could do is say, "Oh yeah? But how about so-and-so?" There was a stern consequence for attempting that weak shit.

I agree that there has been, in my lifetime, too much corruption in government at all levels. Yet, there have been only a very few that come close to what Trump is doing, and many of them faced the consequences of either felony convictions and/or going down in history as crooks.

And, no matter how one feels about the democratic presidents of, say, the last 60 years, not a single one has had any real scandal. I didn't agree with President Obama on everything, but he never disgraced the office in any way.