Trump won't be convicted in the Senate, and that's okay.

[DetlefK]

At some point, you have to cut your losses:

* You cannot convince the hard-core Trump-voters to vote democratic because they have a cult-mindset: Their beliefs are a part of their persona. Any criticism of their beliefs is taken as an attack on them as a person.

* You cannot convince republican Senators to convict and impeach Trump, because they all have seen what happens to Republicans who criticize Trump: Trump, the RNC and their oh-so-loyal republican fellows destroy the political career of everyone who dares to oppose the Fuhrer. Just look at what they did to McCain and Walsh.



Sooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Why should the Democrats fight a losing battle? Why should we worry about decisions that have already been made?



The goal of this impeachment-effort is not to impeach Trump. It has two entirely different goals:

1. Get the facts out to the american people.

2. Get Republicans on the record defending Trump.



Trump has already gotten the Republicans in so much shit: the border-wall is not coming, his tax-cut produced too much debt and too little economic growth, he's at war with the generals of the US military, he's at war with career-officials in US law-enforcement, Evangelicals are going to ever-more-ridiculous lengths to justify their support for him, the US has reached a new low in geopolitical power... And no one is talking any more about Trump's healthcare-reform or "Infrastructure"-week.

The republican voters who voted for him holding their nose are already starting to break away.

He has made it impossible for any decent person to defend him... And THIS is exactly the situation BOTH he AND the Democrats are maneuvering the Republicans into:

Defend the indefensible.

Do not defend the indefensible and the RNC will destroy you.

Defend the indefensible and the voters will destroy you.

Choose.

[Joe941]

1. It's not ok and I'm not resigned that he will be president for over another year.

He needs to be gone asap.

[Hortensis]

31. Me neither! Of course we KNEW long ago the senate wouldn't convict.

Not unless the senators' own power was endangered by not convicting, and that hasn't happened. Not yet. We knew impeachment would cause conservative voters to flock to Trump with passionately increased loyalty.

And we also knew that removing Trump would leave in power the massive and accelerating Republican corruption and authoritarianism that spawned him. It's dangerous to leave Trump in power, but there would also be gravely increased danger in removing him while empowering the rest to control national power.

On the bright side, now that we've lined Republican dominoes up on the national stage and started them tumbling, I'm hopeful for a devastating cascade over coming months of further revelations of corruption and betrayal by no means all related to Trump-Ukraine.

Pelosi said that all Trump's roads lead to Putin. Well, these days a LOT of Republican roads lead to Putin, to attacks on our own democracy, to massive election theft, to terrifying signs of growing kleptocracy, theocracy and archconservative fascism under the Republican banner.

[TheRealNorth]

40. Trump is also cutting checks to the threatened senators

[PufPuf23]

48. Trump himself is a smoke scream.

Items in our governance mosey along against the interests of most citizens and friends and Trump himself is the spectacle to distract from all the "little things" to destroy our federal government and measures in place to foster a just and egalitarian society.

Pelosi is wrong in saying that all Trump's roads lead to Putin. The statement is dangerous and obviously not true.

We need to get rid of Trump and drain the Trump influence ASAP. We need to win back the WH and Senate and build strength and consensus in rural and red areas sufficient to prove and re-enforce what good today and future the Democratic party can bring to everyone, not unlike what FDR did during the Depression.

While today it may look doubtful that there would not be a Senate conviction of Trump. much can change quickly as with Nixon.

Get it done.

[Hortensis]

49. Domestically, the antiliberal, antidemocracy, antiprogressive

Republican agenda is huge for sure. We really should be talking about what's happening domestically up and down the main forum all day every day.

Pelosi's statement relates to foreign policy; I believe it is overwhelmingly true and that, whatever's going on, Putin influences, or can when he chooses,Trump's actions in the Middle and Far East and the Americas, not just Europe.

[PufPuf23]

51. Thank you for your reply and nuance regards Pelosi's statement.

I made a great typo in the reply title, so good will keep it and perhaps recycle. lol

[Hortensis]

56. :) I thought maybe it was deliberate. Sounds valid. nt

[certainot]

34. ASAP. americans need OFFENSE. trump defenders need to see dire political consequences now and one

way to get their immediate attention is to protest the 87 universities that have been supporting 260 limbaugh stations for 30 years, broadcasting footballl on them

the possibility that some of those universities will start to look for alternatives and start a cascade of departing advertisers will scare the crap out of GOP politicians and think tanks that depend on those radio stations

it will also make it a lot easier for the GOP politicians who have been afraid of limbaugh to dump trump

[Buckeyeblue]

2. I agree with you. If the Democrats stopped now they would look weak

Not to mention, the facts in this case overwhelmingly support impeachment. If you were ever going to support impeachment of a president, this would be the case you would pick up. They need to keep Republicans saying stupid things to support Trump.

And, as you pointed out, the facts need presented to the public. This may be the best vehicle to do that.

[Scarsdale]

7. How many violations of the

Emoluments Clause has he already committed, and STILL continues to commit? Does a b.j. REALLY top THIS in the minds of the gop? They are making themselves look like total ASSES, defending the worst person ever to be placed into the WH. Had he been a democratic president, he would be gone by now. The gop would have impeached him at the very start, and we all know that.

[Eyeball_Kid]

39. You're only saying that the GOP is saturated with hypocrites. Ho-Hum.

Doing anything else would place them in what they believe is political jeopardy. Hypocrisy is a given.

[rainin]

3. We shouldn't accept defeat in the senate.

Republicans NEVER stop. They push and push for decades. They use the media, they expand their reach using talk radio and cable television. They never accept defeat and it's worked for them.

When it looks like we're losing, we must yell louder. It works for them.

[BlueMTexpat]

9. This. eom

[Buckeyeblue]

14. There is still a part of me that thinks the Republicans in the Senate will double cross him

And at the last second they will mostly all vote to convict. And then Mitch McConnell will look into the TV cameras and in his garbled way of speaking say, "I have a message to Trump supporters. You can stop supporting us but you better get used to an overwhelming Democratic majority. You better hide your guns..."

And just like that, he'll let the Trumpies know it's over for them.

[rainin]

16. Me, too. He's hurt so many of them. He can't hurt them once he's removed.

It's possible they will turn on him the minute it will mean his removal. If they turn too soon, they face being targeted. And bravery is a foreign concept to them.

[Zoonart]

26. I tend to agree also.

Here's where the fact that he has absolutely NO...ZERO... friends comes into play.

[customerserviceguy]

29. You're wrong about that

He will go on a tirade against any GOP'er who crosses him, there will be a base that will not give up on Trump no matter what. And he has the money (and ability to raise money) for primary challengers everywhere in the country.

As long as Donald Trump has breath in his body, he will be a constant source of trouble.

[Buckeyeblue]

33. But if the Republicans stick together he can really only pick a few of them to challenge

And depending on when the primary is it may be too late in some places. And he could face criminal charges if he pushes too hard.

[customerserviceguy]

45. That would require

courage, and the GOP is pretty devoid of it these days. Who's going to go first, besides the self-serving Mitt Romney?

I'm not sure how he would get criminal charges for advocating for a particular candidate in a local race. And, he'd have the money to spend to get name recognition for a write-in candidate.

[rainin]

35. Citizen tRump isn't as much of a threat as pResident tRump.

Convicted and removed, followed by indicted tRump...even less of a threat.

He will tweet and tweet and tweet. He might even continue to hold rallies if other people pay for it. But, will the money keep flowing for a convicted, removed, and indicted ex-pResident?

[customerserviceguy]

46. If you're talking about the country as a whole

yes, I agree. But, if one is a GOP officeholder who has incurred Trump's wrath, such a person would find Trump very threatening.

I wouldn't put it past Trump to tell his base to vote for a Democratic candidate, just to clear the decks for a "good" Republicon the next time around.

[TreasonousBastard]

27. That's what happened to Nixon. They never really liked him, and once his power over them...

was cancelled, it was all over.

[Joe941]

32. Yup. I agree.

[certainot]

36. they're scared of limbaugh more than trump and the 87 universities that ssupport limbaugh are

easy to protest until they start looking for apolitical alternatives.

limbaugh was moved to a smaller station off the loudest in colorado after 30 years and it might be because of long term low level activism at CU. denver's KOA may have heard about it and decided between CU football and limbaugh.

that can happen all over the country to many of the 260 limbaugh stations that depend on those universities. the GOP will freak out and that will make it worse. the ad industry would have to start asking talk radio advertisers if they really want to support global warming and trump and 'market forces' will destroy trump/putin's most important tool for intimidating the senate

[fescuerescue]

53. I didn't realize thatt Limbaugh had grown that powerful

No way should a propagandist be allowed to own that many radio stations.

[OnDoutside]

4. It's all about bringing his numbers down, and the positive in that, is that it will bring the GOP

numbers down too.

[Quemado]

5. A Senate acquittal could backfire.

The blue wave of 2018 demonstrated a clear anti-Trump sentiment is popular among voters. That blue wave could be further enhanced at the ballot box in 2020 by a Senate acquittal.

Unfortunately, we would have to wait another year to get rid of the bastard.

[certainot]

37. dems have to assume the dirty tricks and voter suppression x10. can't wait for election. ebola is

coming. they're getting geared up for an ebola scare, like in oct 2014 driven by guys like jerome corsi. the talk radio gods already talked about congolese immigrants joining the 'caravans' at the southern border.

leaving talk radio alone makes all sorts of kremlin option open.

[democratisphere]

6. I think this entire impeachment process should be slowed down

and dragged through 2020 while we wait to get Don McGahn, John Bolton along with many others to come before the House Intelligence Committee for Public Hearings. What is the rush; it only advantages drumpf with the russian controlled rethuglicon Senate that will clear him of impeachment and further allow him to continue his carnage on America and its Democracy.

[Pachamama]

8. I agree - I also think that the impeachment process allows for more investigations that could be

...vital to getting information out about the crimes of Trump and this White House. I also think the more that comes out, the worse for the GOP and it will become more difficult for them to defend Trump.

[democratisphere]

10. Absolutely agree with you!

[oldsoftie]

12. In a way, I've thought waiting may actually get more senators to vote to convict.

IF Trump wins that is
If he won, the Senate could vote to remove knowing the GOP still controls the Presidency. I dont think they believe Pence can win in '20 but the think trump can.

[Danascot]

30. Completely agree

and while we're waiting there are so many other crimes that can be investigated. We'll never convince the Trumpers but demonstrating that it isn't just Ukraine but many other things may help sway relatively non-political independents to get motivated. The more people who are pro-impeachment the harder it will go for the GOP. I don't think we're there yet.

[oldsoftie]

11. Saying that to a trump voting friend actually shut him up.

We dont usually go political stuff, but it was my fault for laughing at it when it came on the TV. He said "you know he wont be convicted"
I said "Yes, but he'll always be stained with being one of the few presidents to ever be impeached, and to a guy like him the insult is almost as bad as removal"
And he had no answer

[Mike Niendorff]

13. Exactly.

Direct message to ALL Republicans :

You created this, you own it.

Judgment Day is coming.


MDN

[lastlib]

19. Republick'ns will be confronted with a stark choice:

They can choose to be on the right side of infamy, and convict; or they can be buried by it.

Choose wisely--history will judge them, just as were those who stood with Richard Nixon.

[CousinIT]

15. ALSO - impeachment is unpardonable. It's a black mark on Orange Hitler's record...

...FOREVER. Goes into the history books.

[Nac Mac Feegle]

17. Hang that moron around the necks of those partisan hacks who put party above country..

Destroy the Republican party. They are The Party of Personal Responsibility(TM). Let them be responsible for enabling treason, fraud, theft, incompetence, and everything else the idiot in chief has brought to the office. Hang him around their necks like the proverbial albatross as a badge of shame.

He's their product, the damage is their responsibility. They are blatantly unworthy of their offices and must be removed. That party should be consigned to the garbage heap of history and used as a bad example. Like the Nazi party, enablers and complicit in the evil.

Go scorched earth, it's better than what they deserve.

[hadEnuf]

50. Exactly right

[bucolic_frolic]

18. Yes, exactly, Republicans are in a box and there is no good choice for them

They must rely on cheating and mental trickery to try to escape. There comes a time when logic and consequences matter.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. Courage. At the very least, the Democrats are doing a solemn duty. . . . nt

[RDANGELO]

21. Impeachment sets down a marker for history that his behavior was unacceptable.

Even if he is acquitted in the Senate.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Exactly. Especially if voters punish Republiconism in 2020. . . . nt

[Poiuyt]

41. I want to see trump be impeached for historical reasons

He wasn't just another bad president. I want school kids 100 years from now to realize that trump was so corrupt that the House felt the need to impeach him.

[Perseus]

22. I disagree 100%

I want the motherf^&* out of office, I want all the motherf^*&^s out of office.

If he is not impeached they will use their propaganda machine to elevate him to sainthood. Lets face it, USA citizens are one of the most politically ignorant people on earth, they are fanatics, mostly those on the right, presenting the fact to the USA citizens without removing the monster and his cronies will only preserve the current situation.

How many MAGA people do you really believe are going to say "yes, I was wrong"? I would put that percent to .001%

I remember years ago people in the USA making fun of the "fanatic" Muslims, but lets face it, republicans are more fanatic than anyone else, without the right punishment for the monster and his cronies, all these Muller/Impeachment efforts are useless.

For sake of discussion lets take out the presidency, lets talk about the monster as a private citizen. This monster has committed more crimes than Al Capone, we don't even know what human crimes the monster may have been involved in during his life, but I would not put it past him, so just as a private citizen, taking out all the treasonous actions, he should be in jail for fraud, money laundering, rape, sexual abuse, etc., and some in his family as well, so no, the goal is to go all the way and remove him from office, putting him jail along with his cronies who are also guilty of crimes and misdemeanors.

[RestoreAmerica2020]

23. Three reasons house must impeach, even if senate won't indict: #3 trump loses all pardoning power!

Robert Reich states that the senate may not indict trump, yet in an article with The Guardian he lays out three reasons why the house vote to impeach is essential, his third reason being the most significant in that " trump will be rendered impardonable" which is based on Article II, section 2 of the constitution gives a president the power to pardon anyone who has been convicted of offenses against the United States, with one exception: “in Cases of Impeachment.”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/30/trump-impeachment-inquiry-removal&ved=2ahUKEwiP2drrkJfmAhWKjp4KHV8wAOcQhlR6BAgCEAg&usg=AOvVaw2GSxib2m-mHOpdl-ZHS9R_

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Hmm, that's a point in favor of putting as many charges as possible into the indictment. . . . nt

[renate]

43. well, THAT is very interesting!

I've never heard anyone bring that up before in all of the discussions about impeachment.

[RestoreAmerica2020]

54. Nor had I..that's why it caught my attention. If this is the case, then odious guy in WH

..is screwed. If this is the case, Leader Pelosi, Democratic leadership have got this rata cornered.

[Duppers]

47. Big K & R. - for this post ⬆⬆

Losing pardoning power is a BFD!

BUT WHOOPS: according to Snopes, he retains his pardoning power!?!
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pardon-during-impeachment/

So...

[RestoreAmerica2020]

58. Thanks for link..it's unclear how exception is applied to a president that is mpeached.

Clinton was impeached by house, not indicted by senate, right? Did he lose pardoning power...just can't recall--will have to research. Re Reich's article..Snopes contradicts his findings so I'm with you at this point

Snopes
Except in cases of impeachment,” is not, as some have taken it, a Constitutional requirement that no pardons be issued during a presidential impeachment. Instead, it is widely understood to prohibit pardons that “restore the standing of a Federal officer who has been impeached and removed from his position.” As such, the claim is “False.” So.....hadn't heard or read about this exception

[MFGsunny]

63. "Rendered Impardonable"

I swear 'em are just the sweetest words!

[Merlot]

28. I would add a third goal to impeachment:

3. Rally democrats.

While it may be true that he won't be convicted in the senate, having the hearings was the right thing to do.

[Eyeball_Kid]

38. A Cult of Personality does NOT last forever.

Some or most followers will drop away out of sheer boredom. Some will get disgusted that Trumpy's promises are empty. Some will just tire of the one trick pony. Trumpy's magic charisma is showing signs of being overly ripe. His only rabid audience now is the Congressional GOP and and his dwindling base. He is NOT gaining favorability anywhere. As for the Congressional and the general GOP, some will eventually see the forest AND the trees, and as I mix metaphors, will see the handwriting on the wall.

Trumpy cannot govern in a representative government. He MUST be a dictator. It's the logic of his situation. He cannot negotiate. He cannot allow for dissenting opinions, he cannot come to compromises. He's too demented for all of that. His only option is authoritarian rule. He's strictly zero-sum. He must win everything while everyone else loses. GOPers MUST tag along and hang onto his shortening coattails, or they'll be left to contend with Trumpy's rabid dogs in primaries. Until then, GOPers will lie and support Trumpy's lies just to stay in his good graces. It's a depraved environment, and it's one of the GOP's making.

Trumpy will destroy everything and everyone in his path. It's only logical. He has no choice. He really doesn't. At some point in the near future, millions of us will be thanking the Democratically Controlled House for saving the nation. If they don't, then we simply don't have a Constitutional government. We have a dictatorship. GOPers really don't care at this point. It's power first, the Constitution-- an afterthought.

Oh, BTW, I'm not so certain that Trumpy will NOT be convicted in the Senate. Trumpy is not done spiraling downward. The further he descends into the abyss, the more supporters he'll lose. If he had the sense to elevate his game and become more open to compromise, we'd be looking at an even more dangerous dictator. But he doesn't have the mental capacity for it. Most people in the beginning stages of Alzheimer's or ischemic dementia harden their authoritarian sentiments because their neurological disease doesn't permit anything else. I suspect that all of the GOP resignations are from politicians who understand this and want out before the shit really hits the fan.

[matt819]

42. You're probably right on the conviction issue. About it not mattering? Not so sure.

Voting no does not make them accountable. To anyone. For anything.

They don't care. Membership in the cult is more important.

Voting no means they lose funding from RW billionaires, the RNC, their constituents. The blessing from the one anointed by god means everything to them. Above all, they know their constituents. They are scared. Of everything. Jews. Muslims. Non-white people. George Soros. Women. Gays. Young people, Greta specifically. And those constituents will continue to vote for them because they believe that their senator is the only one able to hold back the black, brown, female, and gay hordes. They will vote for him despite the evidence that RW policies are largely responsible for their economic plight.

Many of them are rich. And whether or not they are, they get their pension once they leave office. They'll be fine. Many of them will get sinecures from the RW universe - fox, Heritage, American Enterprise, etc. They will become lobbyists. There is no shame, largely because they don't believe they are wrong. And the world they live in reinforces this over and over and over. They don't care about their legacy because republicans don't care about this country or about its long-term health. They care only about themselves, and, again, they believe that have done nothing wrong. To them, they are on the right side of history.

Reports that unnamed republicans are disgusted with trump are BS. Because, see above.

[Collimator]

44. Detlefk, I know that you are not using the expression. . .

"That's okay" to mean that an acquittal is a good thing or even an unfortunate thing that we should just shrug our shoulders over and accept.

Like the vast majority of people in this world, I am not a political insider and I don't understand the multi-level chess game that is being played out on the board of history at this time. So, I am going to refrain from saying "this should happen" or "no, we need to do that".

Instead, I will make what many might see as a vapid comment.

Have you ever heard the expression, "Sometimes hopeless causes are the only ones worth fighting for"?

Justice for Trump may not be achieved through the political act of impeachment. But impeachment must be pursued. Because even if the act of impeachment is a hopeless cause due to the Republican controlled Senate, the larger, more significant cause is NOT hopeless.

A more just world for everyone is a possibility--not a perfect world--but a world that is incrementally better. The increments of improvement made seem painfully small at times. Like a tree branch growing cell by cell through a prison fence, we can't always measure the growth by what we see in our daily lives. And yet as long as there is endurance, there is growth.

There are generations of young people coming after us who see the connection between people of all backgrounds as well as the human race and the natural world. And yes, there are young people who have been taught fear and hatred from their elders, but they are in the minority.

It is for the ones with open hearts that we must press forward regardless of how uncertain the outcome. The effort to impeach is the only honorable option, no matter what comes of it.

[fescuerescue]

52. They vote RED no matter had BAD

That's their cultist mindset. Republican party above all.

They no they convicting Trump is an attack on their party and they can't face it.

[rso]

55. Impeachment

I think democrats should have drawn things out a bit more. Specifically, they should have waited until the Courts’ final ruling on the cases to have people like Bolton, Pompeo, Giuliani etc. testify. Any delay could be easily laid at the foot of Donnie and his sycophants, as they are the ones not cooperating and going to Court instead.

[Skittles]

57. also

it makes it harder for Trump to keep doing his quid pro quo act - I know he is still doing it (that's the gist of his ART OF THE DEAL) - but impeachment proceedings certainly make it more difficult

[Nitram]

59. IMO Congress has a constitutional duty to impeach Dump and remove him from office.

Just as the Congress has a constitutional duty to bring up a Supreme Court Justice nominee for a vote.

[Chemisse]

60. Precedent. We must make the statement that this is not okay, for the sake of our democracy.

While I hate to think of the damage he can do in one more year, if he were to be removed a more moderate GOP candidate might be harder to beat than a hobbled Trump.

[stuffmatters]

61. I think of the O.J. model: Not found guilty in court,overwhelmingly guiltly to public & ruined.

[backscatter712]

62. It is what it is. Yes, the right-wing scum won't vote to convict. Yes, still impeach the bastard.

1. It doesn't just put Trump on trial, as far as the public eye is concerned, it puts the entire GOP on trial. Every GOP senator that votes to acquit will have to go on the record to do that and will have to explain himself to his voters.

2. It blocks Trump and Pence from pardoning out of their mess. The Constitution specifically says the President cannot pardon in cases of impeachment. Between that and the fact they'll be facing state charges, they are indeed in deep shit.

3. It makes Trump and the GOP look like such monumental pieces of shit - it's going to be several more weeks of highly damaging evidence coming out and making Trump look like the criminal he is.