On civility...

[OneGrassRoot]

What kind of person is calling for civility and decorum in these times, with that message targeted primarily at Democrats/liberals/progressives?

I mean, what is their socioeconomic status, as well as their personality type?

My experience is that I see primarily politically and socially moderate white people calling for civility, both political and apolitical types. They seem to have given up on Trumpers being civil, but expect those under attack from Trumpism to uphold "niceness." Those I see calling for civility and chastising anyone on the left speaking out and standing up forcefully are those who don't seem to have been impacted by the oppression of Trumpism or systemic racism and classism.

Most of us speaking out forcefully using whateverthefuck language we so choose that conveys our message have been impacted. We have skin in the game, so to speak, and/or we are fighting against oppression of people who are marginalized and under attack. We're also fighting against overt corruption.

Niceness is a key aspect of what has gotten us here. (Being "nice" and "polite" is very different from being genuinely kind, btw.)

The right-wing has been uncivil since the advent of right-wing radio, suggesting violence against The Other (which includes Dems) every step of the way. Make no mistake: People perceived as on the left are seen as evil by Trump's base. Many of them want to, quite literally, annihilate us.

This is no time to be "nice" in the face of all the hatred, violence of all types, and corruption. In my strong opinion, it makes us Good Germans. It doesn't mean we have to be evil in return, but to remain silent or placate their hatefulness in the name of civility isn't helping anyone but Trump, Putin, etc.

[Mike 03]

1. Fascinating topic.

I want to see what people say about this. I struggle with this. Recently I found an article in Psychology Today that applies Game Theory to human interactions and comes to the conclusion that "Tit for Tat" strategy is the most beneficial strategy:

Put crudely, if you model the survival prospects for different kinds of creatures with different ways of interacting with others—from serial exploiters to serial co-operators and every shade in between—it turns out that the creatures who thrive in the long one are those that adopt a strategy called 'tit for tat'. This means that they always seek to co-operate with others, but withdraw that co-operation as soon as they are taken advantage of. Because this is the attitude which increases the survival value of a species, it would seem to follow that humans have evolved an in-built tendency to co-operation, along with a tendency to withdraw that co-operation if exploited. Hence, it is argued [that an] essential feature of ethics—reciprocity—is explained by evolution.

Link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/sg/blog/evolution-the-self/201607/the-prisoner-s-dilemma-and-the-virtues-tit-tat

I'm undecided. But I think about this frequently.

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully an interesting discussion will ensue.

[OneGrassRoot]

4. THAT is fascinating!

Thank you so much for this.

I appreciate that it lays out the premise that humans are, essentially a cooperative species as a starting point.

I'm an advocate of shunning -- not necessarily public shaming, but removing oneself from a relationship with bad actors which now includes Trumpists. That seems to fit with this idea of reciprocity.

They behave horribly so we withdraw our cooperation as far as personal relationship.

I do feel badly for people who work with the public and aren't owners of an establishment; to keep their job, they often have to interact with people who obviously hold hateful views no matter what.

Thanks again!

[Mike 03]

6. Glad you found this useful.

It really made me think. I do think Democrats, by and large, aspire to be serial cooperators.

This is a very difficult issue. What happens if you are practicing "tit for tat" with an ideology that isn't motivated to cooperate under any circumstances? How far down could we go? Do we still cooperate enough that "tit for tat" works?

Then there's what Gandhi said about "an eye for an eye leaves the world blind."

Your comments on shunning are interesting too. Public shaming does happen on Twitter frequently, and it seems to evoke a strong response in some people. (#MoscowMitch, Devin Nunes).

[2naSalit]

2. It kind of reminds me of

the formal style of warfare practiced by the English Army and the guerilla tactics the colonists used against them and the guerillas won. Seems we need to develop some guerilla tactics and use them real quick.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Good point. n/t

[Kid Berwyn]

3. Bullies and NAZIs expect their victims to be civil.

They only “respect” — meaning, “fear” — those who stand up to them.

John Kerry took the nice guy road in 2004 and Bush, Rove and the SwiftBoat liars did all but destroy his good name.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. Indeed. We've seen this repeatedly and must learn from it. n/t

[gratuitous]

14. Also, the public scolds only notice when liberals use uncivil language

Trump name-calls with abandon, derides the House's impeachment inquiry as "bullshit," and generally goes off on anyone or anything that displeases him. Do you hear the self-appointed schoolmarms tut-tutting him? You do not.

[OneGrassRoot]

21. THIS. n/

[Lady Freedom Returns]

5. Sorry to Mrs Obama in advance. .

But for me, when they go low, I go for the mountain oysters.

[OneGrassRoot]

9. LOL Thanks for the chuckle.

(On a personal note, I hope you're well. I've thought about you over the years when I had Wishadoo active.)

[Lady Freedom Returns]

13. Was just diagnosed with MS back in June.

And you can see the mess I'm in via the Lounge. But I'm going to handle it like I've handled all the other road bump in my life, like a tiger.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. ...

I'm so sorry things continue to be such a struggle. I swear, for many of us, that seems to be our normal. Good for you to not let it tear you down.

[MarcA]

7. Being civil to incivility is like being tolerant of intolerance.

It doesn't work. Much of the blame involves Institutions that care
about order and proce$$ but not truth and justice.

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Word. No justice, no peace. n/t

[2naSalit]

12. K&R

[lunatica]

16. Any abused and battered wife can tell you that

playing nice is not a shield.

The thing to understand is that there’s a difference in what an abuser demands in return for their abstaining from abuse. It isn’t a give and take, or equals being in a relationship. It is the abuser forcing the spouse to ‘be nice’ as defined only by the abuser. There is no give and take.

This applies to what Trump, Republicans and MAGATs believe should happen. There is no respect, no acceptance of differences in opinion, and no tolerance for differing views.

The only way to deal with this kind of abuse is to never give in, get the hell away and never go back. Because abusers never stop abusing.

[H2O Man]

17. Well said.

[OneGrassRoot]

19. Thank you so much for this. n/t

[H2O Man]

18. Recommended.

Very interesting. Both the OP and responses are worth thinking about.

In my opinion, "choice" is the best option. However anyone opts to respond to the Trumpets is fine with me. I can understand and appreciate any and all of the very wide range of options that different people take. I also think that an individual has the option of using different responses, based upon the context of how they are feeling on a particular day, and the situation they find themselves in.

I try -- but fail -- to use the example of Gandhi and King as often as possible. But I understand that they were great individuals, while the only "greatness" I may have is recognizing I am an imperfect, damaged human being. Thus, I try to be patient with myself, as well as with others. And I frequently fail at that, too.

However, I know that in certain circumstances -- those being an immediate threat to my family or friends -- the old side of me, which was too often violent, attempts to gurgle up to the surface. I'm old, and not as strong as I once was. But I could still do a fucking lot of damage, quickly.

Finding balance takes a lifetime.

[OneGrassRoot]

20. Thank you...