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H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 01:51 PM Dec 2019

The Trial of Donald Trump

“ Stated simply, impeachments are no place for small minds or low politics. …..Although the House and Senate are irreducibly political, the Constitution makes clear that impeachment calls for a profoundly different mentality. ….An impeachment along political party lines would only be acceptable where the president as captured or corrupted his own political party. ....Refusing to impeach a known tyrant out of partisan self-interest would constitute a failure of governance at least as profound as urging impeachment solely for partisan reasons.”
Laurence Tribe; To End a Presidency: The Power of Impeachment


My daughters asked me to compile a list of the books on impeachment that I do not have, as the holiday season is upon us. Hence, my dining room table has a variety of books, including those specifically on impeachment, and those about the Nixon and Clinton eras, piling up. By way of internet, I have found that there are four on the topic that I do not have in my library.

My son thinks it's a giggle to watch me pouring through those that now force us to consume our evening meal in another room. All of my children are used to hearing me talk to myself when reading or watching television, so I suppose it comes as no surprise when I'm in the middle of a heated debate with some paragraph and the boys say, “Will you please keep it down, Boomer?” My current response is, “Get out here! You won't believe this!” The older son finds it particularly annoying between the hours of 2 and 4 am/est. Last night, he told me if I didn't stop yelling at books, he would have to make an appointment at the local animal shelter to be put to sleep.

Hopefully, this helps to explain my long and tedious essays on DU:GD.

Today, I thought I'd talk about what we might expect in terms of format if and when the Senate hears the trial of Donald Trump in early 2020. While the Constitution grants the Senate the sole power to try impeachments, the ritual has only two examples in our nation's history. Thus, the path the trial will take is not as well defined as, say, a criminal or civil trial.

That is important to keep in mind for several reasons. Among them is the level of “proof” put into evidence needed for a conviction. In a criminal trial, of course, the prosecution must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's an ill-defined level. In a civil trial, it comes down to the preponderance of evidence, which means if it's 51-49, the jury may go with that 51.

But as Laurence Tribe points out, the verdict for impeachment is somewhere in between. He notes that an impeachment of a president is evidence of a national crisis. In theory, every Senator should put country first, though obviously party and personal issues may influence their decisions. Unfortunately, we see republicans putting self first, party second, and country last when it comes to all things Trump. But calling the president rude-but-accurate names in off-the-record conversations clearly isn't enough in times of national crisis.

This was anticipated. Thus, the Senators are required to take an oath to uphold the Constitution as the first step of an impeachment trial. This oath is distinct, as it is the only time a federal official is required to take an oath separate from their initial oath of office, for an official duty. This second oath is, in theory, to remind each Senator that their focus should be on country, rather than party of personal employment considerations.

The House will appoint those who will “manage” the case, acting as prosecutors. After the Senators are sworn in, the manager (or managers) will present an outline of the case. After this, the Senate calls upon the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court to oversee the case. In doing so, they remove the vice president from any role in the trial. Initially, this was done in part because the VP was whoever took second place in the election, not necessarily from the same party as the president, and who would have obvious potential conflicts of interest in the trial. More, it signals the importance of the national crisis that the Senate is tasked with resolving.

After that, the process is not defined, as noted before, to the degree that criminal and civil trials are. Thus, the Senate majority leader is in a position to exert great influence. The 2020 impeachment trial of Donald Trump will be under the influence of Mitch McConnell, a uniquely petty man who has been exclusively focused on personal power throughout his political career. His quest for power has overshadowed any beliefs of values that he may have once had.

Thus, in 2020, Mitch will be focused upon personal power, party, and country in that order. He wants to be re-elected and maintain his current position in the Senate. Knowing this, we can conclude that a fair trial in the Senate is not his priority. He wants to maintain the powers of the Elder Tortoise. Because advancing age has diminished his thought capacity, he is currently relying on his aides to help him assess the national mood.

The first thing he has them report upon is, of course, national polls. He is old enough to know that national polls on impeachment are relatively new – the first merely dates back to 1973 – and that they are rarely an accurate measure. If memory serves me correctly, a national poll in 2014 showed that the majority of Americans believed impeachment was mistakenly believed to be about the public's reactions to such things as economic policy. That is an example of the dangers of ignorance.

More important to Mitch are state-wide polls. Yet these, too, often reflect the level of ignorance that the citizens in a state – say, Kentucky – dwell within. Hence, Mitch's aides are also focusing on the levels of contacts that his flock of tortoises receive from the public. This includes phone calls, letters, and e-mails, weighted in that order. On-line petitions are given zero value.

Thus, in the upcoming impeachment trial, it is important to recognize that Mitch will no longer be representing one state. He will be working for all of us, Democrats, independents, and republicans alike, nation-wide. He will be, in other words, our employee. And it is essential that we let him know what job we want him to do – indeed, we forfeit the right to complain afterwards if we do not provide him with specific instructions.

Thus, the best thing that you and I can do this weekend is to write to Senator McConnell at the Russell Senate Office Building, 2 Constitutional Ave NE, Washington, DC, 20002, and tell him what to do. Keep in mind that even snail-mail letters are weighed differently: a hand-written letter is actually given more weight than a typed one.

Will you join me in this effort? Encourage family and friends to do the same?

Thank you for your consideration.
H2O Man

68 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Trial of Donald Trump (Original Post) H2O Man Dec 2019 OP
👍🏼 K&R... spanone Dec 2019 #1
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #2
Moscow Mitch is the key to how Wellstone ruled Dec 2019 #3
Right! H2O Man Dec 2019 #8
Mitch got lucky in 2018 Wellstone ruled Dec 2019 #13
I agree 100% H2O Man Dec 2019 #15
In the same age group and I for one Wellstone ruled Dec 2019 #20
Yep! H2O Man Dec 2019 #37
Oh boy,where to start. Wellstone ruled Dec 2019 #50
Count on it! pandr32 Dec 2019 #4
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #9
I admire your interest in the topic of impeachment, but I'd much rather that it were tRUMP and abqtommy Dec 2019 #5
Me, too! H2O Man Dec 2019 #10
I'm working on family and friends malaise Dec 2019 #6
Beautiful! H2O Man Dec 2019 #11
recommended. let's hope mitch decides that abandoning ship is his only hope. mopinko Dec 2019 #7
Yes, exactly! H2O Man Dec 2019 #12
There is a Russian contingent in Kentucky around Deripaska. Consequences run with ancianita Dec 2019 #28
Good question! H2O Man Dec 2019 #41
Thanks. ancianita Dec 2019 #57
MM's call line isn't taking messages even during Senate business hours; I emailed the message. ancianita Dec 2019 #61
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #62
Let's hope. ancianita Dec 2019 #67
I will send a hand written letter. It will be easy to compose. panader0 Dec 2019 #14
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #16
My letter is done and in the envelope. panader0 Dec 2019 #17
Thank you so much! H2O Man Dec 2019 #18
Snail mail does get delayed in screening process, so I hope people will write immediately or fax diva77 Dec 2019 #19
Good point. H2O Man Dec 2019 #38
K&R smirkymonkey Dec 2019 #21
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #39
Here's the letter I'll be sending: NBachers Dec 2019 #22
Perfect! H2O Man Dec 2019 #40
Great analysis jmbar2 Dec 2019 #23
Thank you, jmbar2 ! H2O Man Dec 2019 #46
Yes. Will do. And... PatrickforO Dec 2019 #24
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #47
It's been awhile Dan Dec 2019 #25
I think you might be referring to the wnylib Dec 2019 #32
Sorry, no. Dan Dec 2019 #33
OK. I see what you were referring to. wnylib Dec 2019 #34
Very interesting/ H2O Man Dec 2019 #36
Thanks for the book recommendation. wnylib Dec 2019 #54
P.S. -- I heard the interview of Oren Lyons by wnylib Dec 2019 #55
In the early 1970s, H2O Man Dec 2019 #58
When I was in grade school, the only things wnylib Dec 2019 #63
Parker's book on H2O Man Dec 2019 #64
This message was self-deleted by its author wnylib Dec 2019 #65
It is on my "To Do" list -- literally. KPN Dec 2019 #26
Thank you. H2O Man Dec 2019 #42
Lovely letter...and your family sounds lovely, too! Karadeniz Dec 2019 #27
Thank you! H2O Man Dec 2019 #43
Thanks for the call to action! burrowowl Dec 2019 #29
Thanks, burrowowl! H2O Man Dec 2019 #44
Good ideas. I will write and say, "Dear Sen McConnell... FailureToCommunicate Dec 2019 #30
Nice! H2O Man Dec 2019 #45
let Moscow Mitch know he can be primaried ... Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #31
It would seem H2O Man Dec 2019 #48
I am really interested in this Senate trial, when he is impeached. kentuck Dec 2019 #35
Thanks! H2O Man Dec 2019 #49
If you use snail-mail, your letter will never be read befeore thetrial is over! napi21 Dec 2019 #51
See posts 19 & 38 H2O Man Dec 2019 #52
On a totally different subject.... StevieM Dec 2019 #53
Good questions. H2O Man Dec 2019 #59
Well, my knowledge on the subject is somewhat limited. But I do enjoy your analyses a lot. StevieM Dec 2019 #66
It is an historic time. kentuck Dec 2019 #56
Definitely! H2O Man Dec 2019 #60
Just sent my postcard cp Dec 2019 #68
 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
3. Moscow Mitch is the key to how
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:01 PM
Dec 2019

a Senate Trial will be held. With his polling numbers being in the toilet,this will be a interesting study on how to destroy your Political Party for the sake of personal Power.

Each Senator who votes for Acquittal and will be public record. Each one of those will loose their Seat as they come up for reelection,watch and see.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
8. Right!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:38 PM
Dec 2019

Mitch himself may be at the highest risk ever for losing his seat. If the Democrats run the right candidate, with a strong campaign, we can retire him.

Although I have contempt for republicans as a species -- especially those in the House -- I think that there is a possibility that some of them recognize the dangers Trump poses. In fact, I think a growing number of them recognize he needs to be impeached. While that doesn't translate directly to their finding a spine or conscience, it is a possibility. Perhaps we can organize an effort to communicate with some of them in the weeks to come.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
13. Mitch got lucky in 2018
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:17 PM
Dec 2019

with the loss of three Dems giving him total control. And in each case,these Candidates played the safe card in their Campaigns. Had they went get in your face,they would have won.

Mitch knows how the Vote Records are used to overturn a Senate Seat and he will resign before giving up power.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
15. I agree 100%
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:27 PM
Dec 2019

You are exactly right. That is exactly the way I see it, too.

Mitch is aware that, at age 77, his abilities are on the decline. From what I have heard, he whines about being tired far more frequently than he did even a couple of years ago. And his staff are increasingly aware of the mind-body connections involved. To paraphrase a young Cassius Clay, Mitch has been living off the fat of the land, and it's time to give him his pension plan.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
20. In the same age group and I for one
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:50 PM
Dec 2019

see my own loss of Skills. Yes there are a few via Genetics are able to maintain their Skill Set into their late eighties or the rare Jimmy Carter type who have not lost a step.

McConnell falls into the lost a step or two group much like me. Always remember a quote from a Historian that applies today. Sick old men make Laws that kill healthy young men.

McConnell had the benefit of the Murdoch Media beating the Anti Obama and Anti Hillary drums of Racial hatred still in play in 2018. And we saw this in the Small Population States with a mega White Majority .

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
37. Yep!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 11:53 PM
Dec 2019

My younger son thinks it's a giggle to sing Neil Young's "Old Man" near me, then ask what it's like to have gone from being a young man to an old man. I recognize this as a sign of affection, not that I could do anything if it was an insult. But it is also a reminder that the amount of work I can accomplish is greatly reduced, and that includes both body and brain.

I also wanted to mention something about unions that you might find interesting. My cousin is a retired union carpenter. In 2016 and '18, he noticed that other union members were saying they liked Trump and the republican party. Together, we've sat down with a number of the guys, and found they had no idea about union history. My cousin has been advocating that his union start an educational program for new members, so that they know which party supports them.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
50. Oh boy,where to start.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:42 AM
Dec 2019

As a youngster in the late Forties,I would attend Teamster Union Meetings with my Dad as well as other Kids with there Dad's. Believe there were five or six of us who kind of hung out together for the next ten or twelve years. Memory skips me as to who was the Business Agent at the time. But the Local was formed in 1948 and still exists yet today,all be it in a whole different configuration.

Shortly after the Meeting came to order,then after the minutes were read and approve as well as the swearing of new members,then it was Labor History time. At that time the Teamsters were part of the AFL-CIO and the Labor History books were compiled by these folks. And we Kids learned the real meaning of Organized Labor and how Unions work for all not just a few. BTW,dues were 50 cents a month at that time and as the Men paid their half dollar dues they would receive a pin with the Month and the Teamster Logo to wear on their Caps,hats of jackets. And for we Kids that came along,we were also given a pin to wear. Oh and the B.A. would hand out a work book for the Kids to help understand just how a Union worked.

We are talking about post ww2,the old man and our family had paid and maintained Health Insurance with zero co-pays. Dad Retired thirty some years later with a Central States Pension and the best part was,he never had to worry about paying any Medical,dental or Vision bills in all those thirty plus years.

Yes,if Labor wants a lesson on how to expand their strength,they must educate the Nation as to just how Unions protect peoples rights as well as improving the Public good.

abqtommy

(14,118 posts)
5. I admire your interest in the topic of impeachment, but I'd much rather that it were tRUMP and
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:09 PM
Dec 2019

his hench-persons that were reading and showing the same interest.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
10. Me, too!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:43 PM
Dec 2019

We know that Trump's brain is wired in a manner that prevents him from properly processing information. And those in his mis-administration have to support him -- unless they resign -- in much the manner as his lawyer would in a criminal or civil case.

However, despite what resistance they may have, we do have the ability to communicate with Mitch, his aides, and other republican Senators. We should strike while the iron is hot.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
11. Beautiful!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:45 PM
Dec 2019

I am mobilizing the ground troops here, in my region, as well as through associates across the country.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
12. Yes, exactly!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 02:52 PM
Dec 2019

Mitch is as motivated by self-interest as is Trump. The major difference is that unlike Trump, he has a wee-bit of thinking that rises above the functioning of the reptilian brain found at the organ's stem. Thus, unlike Trump, he has an ability to anticipated consequences for his behaviors. In as perverse a manner as we can muster, we must help Mitch keep hope alive! (grin)

ancianita

(36,035 posts)
28. There is a Russian contingent in Kentucky around Deripaska. Consequences run with
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 04:46 PM
Dec 2019

Russians, too. They can't be discounted, given the roguery of Russians in Western countries.

McConnell's position as a tool might be about more than just breaking from Trump, the consequences of which might be worse than losing one's job. I think he'd rather live with Trump than die for this trial.

I'll make the call from Florida. Calls get a human to listen.

So. FWIW: The gravity of this situation calls for giving McConnell an ultimatum: either he and Republicans live up to their oaths of office, or I will be a full donor to each and every one of their statewide opponents in 2020. I don't even think he'll care.


Question: What specific instructions are you giving McConnell?

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
41. Good question!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:06 AM
Dec 2019

I'm glad to see that in post #22, one of DU's very best minds showed us the letter he wrote. I think it is outstanding, and that it highlights the important points to communicate with Mitch's office.

ancianita

(36,035 posts)
61. MM's call line isn't taking messages even during Senate business hours; I emailed the message.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:25 AM
Dec 2019

Last edited Sat Dec 7, 2019, 01:40 PM - Edit history (1)

(He's getting "high volume" as they say.)

Here it is:

Dear Senator McConnell:

You swore a public, official oath to do your job to protect and defend the Constitution with its 3-branch co-equal governance structure for the United States.

When you do your job as Majority Leader of the Senate,
— you don’t worry about keeping your job,
— or about getting paid by your donors;
— you don’t worry about retribution,
— you do not worry about having a nation of men who make laws conform to men;
instead, you keep your sworn oath to preserve a nation of laws that make men conform to law.

Preserve the longest existing democracy in human history. Do not let American democracy be chained to the interests of exploiters and haters of Western Democracy.

Honor your oath to remember that the Constitution defines an impeachment trial of the president, and not any other member of the First, Second or Third branch. Do not make the Senate Impeachment Trial an instrument of political deflection. Make the Senate trial an instrument of Constitutional Law first; facts first. Political meaning later, for campaigns and elections.

Before, during and after the Senate trial, millions of Americans are watching you, and how you execute your sworn oath.

Sincerely,


I'll also sent it in a stapled letter, per your advice.


H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
62. Thank you!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:39 AM
Dec 2019

I'll bet his office is getting a lot of calls. I know that our opposition has been organizing. But no matter -- we'll kick their behinds with letters.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
14. I will send a hand written letter. It will be easy to compose.
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:26 PM
Dec 2019

Thanks for the address.
I'm working on the old retired construction trash friends of mine. Some
are liberal, some are not, but all know that I have knowledge of the facts
(thanks to the great folks here at DU). I think I've swayed more than one.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
16. Thank you!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:30 PM
Dec 2019

And that is exactly how it is done -- one person at a time, who then convinces the next person. That was the most important lesson I learned from studying the tactics of the great Cesar Chavez. Besides being a political genius, he was such a good man.

diva77

(7,640 posts)
19. Snail mail does get delayed in screening process, so I hope people will write immediately or fax
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:50 PM
Dec 2019

(I'm sure everyone here is aware of this).

Link regarding info. to include when writing to a congressperson:

https://www.aallnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/writingMOC.pdf

K&R



H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
38. Good point.
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 11:58 PM
Dec 2019

I should have addressed this in the OP. I'm glad that you brought it to everyone's attention. And thank you for the link.

In the past, due to the nature of snail-mail, myself and others here have noted that there are some good options. Perhaps the easiest is to use a blank sheet of paper behind the letter, fold it as you would if you were to put the papers in an envelope, staple or tape it closed, and use one side for addresses and the stamp. This way, there is no question about if there is anything else inside. Another option is a postcard.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
39. Thank you!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:00 AM
Dec 2019

I was talking with a good friend from DU this morning, and the OP is pretty much the material I was bending her ear with.

NBachers

(17,108 posts)
22. Here's the letter I'll be sending:
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 03:58 PM
Dec 2019

NBachers


Senator Mitch McConnell
Russell Senate Office Building
2 Constitutional Ave NE
Washington, DC 20002

Dear Senator McConnell:

It is possible that there may be in impeachment trial of President Donald Trump in the Senate in 2020. As Senate Majority Leader, you will have an enormous amount of influence on how this trial is conducted.

You have taken an Oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States when you took the Oath of Office.

For the impeachment proceedings, you will be under another oath or affirmation that you will perform your duties honestly and with due diligence.

In Impeachment, you will be representing the entire population of the United States- Republicans, Democrats, Independents; everyone - not just Kentucky voters. The eyes of the Nation, and of the world, will be upon you.

It will be your obligation to put Country and Constitution over politics or personal power in these proceedings. You will need to enforce a fair, dignified, legal courtroom style of behavior for this serious process. Grandstanding, lies, and egregious behavior have no place in these proceedings.

This impeachment trial, if it happens, will be your lasting legacy. Please use your influence to keep it from devolving into a partisan circus.

Sincerely,

NBachers

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
40. Perfect!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:02 AM
Dec 2019

That is so good! Thank you for sharing it. I'd suggest others use it as a model for their own letter, if they aren't sure what to say!

jmbar2

(4,874 posts)
23. Great analysis
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 04:01 PM
Dec 2019

I'm all in. Haven't done a handwritten letter in years, but now is the time...


Thanks.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
46. Thank you, jmbar2 !
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:20 AM
Dec 2019

I only do handwritten letters to politicians these days. My handwriting isn't what it used to be ....at my age, I have to bring shopping lists when I go to the grocery store, and there are times I can't tell what it was I wrote. My writing starts out pretty good, but goes downhill fast. So I'm taking my time on this, as I want the letter I mail tomorrow to communicate a clear message.

Dan

(3,551 posts)
25. It's been awhile
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 04:11 PM
Dec 2019

But I remember reading something about the intent of the Founding Fathers when they were debating Impeachment. I remember the comment by Benjamin Franklin, where he said something like either there will be Impeachment or Assassination.

wnylib

(21,433 posts)
32. I think you might be referring to the
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 07:43 PM
Dec 2019

signing of rhe Declaration of Independence, when Franklin said, 'We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Work together and stick it out to succeed or we will each face failure alone.

wnylib

(21,433 posts)
34. OK. I see what you were referring to.
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 10:11 PM
Dec 2019

The Smithsonian llnk.only mentions the Roman. government influence on Franklin. But there was a stronger influence on Franklin which caused him to propose the Albany Union in 1744 and to later promote some of the ideas from it when the US constitution was being written.

Franklin and, to a lesser extent, Madison, were influenced by the oral constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. Franklin became familiar with the Iroquois government after printing minutes of a meeting between Iroquois.and colonial delegates. He studied it further after that.

Some of the.concepts in the Iroquois government. that influenced Franklin and other delegates were modified to suit European American customs and culture.

The Iroquois did have a system for impeachment, but it was quite different from European ideas (done by women) so the Roman method was probably a stronger influence -- except that the Iroquois system did allow for removal and replacement of leaders as well as of elected delegates while the Roman system allowed only for the removal of senators.

https'/www.uh.edu/engines/epi709.htm

If the link doesn't work, you can find the article by googling Iroquois and US government University of Houston.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
36. Very interesting/
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 11:43 PM
Dec 2019

I will suggest what I think is a more interesting reference resource, "Exiled in the Land of the Free: Democracy, Indian Nations, and the U.S. Constitution" (Clear Light Publishers; 1992). It contains works by eight of the top Indian leaders. My favorites are Oren Lyons, John Mohawk, and Vine Deloria, Jr. Oren is still living, though the other two have died.

Oren was, at the time, the Faith Keeper of the Turtle Clan of the Onondaga Nation. As such, he sat with Chief Paul Waterman on bothe the Onondaga Council of Chiefs, and the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) Grand Council. Thus, I've known Oren formany decades. And I had many conversations with Paul, about how one of his grandfathers (I'm unsure how many "greats&quot was among those who knew Ben Franklin.

"Impeaching" a chief (aka removing their antlers) could be accomplished by the Clan Mother in the case of their clan's representative on the council. Likewise, she had been the one who had selected him for that position. Such actions generally involve group discussions before selecting a chief, and can include warnings before removal.

There are numerous other good resources on this general subject, including a series of interviews with Paul that I published years ago. I see Oren every so often, including at boxing cards near Onondaga. He's a great man. Tapes of his speeches, as well as his interview by Bill Moyers, can be found on youtube.

wnylib

(21,433 posts)
54. Thanks for the book recommendation.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 07:54 AM
Dec 2019

I don't know Oren personally but I do know of him, the Faithkeepers, etc. I have a couple of Vine Deloria's books and also some of Arthur C Parker's works in a collection, Parker on the Iroquois.

I grew up in NW PA but now live in western NY. Have been to the Allegany and Cattaraugus territories many times. I am old enough to remember the construction of Kinzua Dam. My grandfather had met Parker. My grandmother was a distant cousin of Parker through his white grandmother, Martha Hoyt.

And yet, I did not know about the connection between Franklin and the Haudenosaunee until a college anthropology course.

wnylib

(21,433 posts)
55. P.S. -- I heard the interview of Oren Lyons by
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 09:01 AM
Dec 2019

Bill Moyers on you tube some time ago. It was wonderful. I could listen to that voice indefinitely. Think I will do it again.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
58. In the early 1970s,
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:02 AM
Dec 2019

Oren and Carmen Basilio had a heavyweight boxer, Greg Sorrentino. In the amateurs, my brother-in-law fought Greg twice. Greg went on to be a pretty good pro, though he wasn't big enough to compete against the top guys. I run into Greg every year at the NYS Golden Gloves in Buffalo. And fairly often, I see a couple of the other people I knew through my decades of work with Chief Waterman. Both Oren and Paul had boxed as amateurs.

(My great uncle taught Carmen to box, and promoted his early fights. Carmen used to stay at his house in Sherburne, NY, including when he became world champion. Carmen also was in my brother's corner for his pro debut.)

When my boys were little, they loved hanging out in Oren's cabin at Onondaga, while Oren, Paul, and I worked on various burial protection & repatriation issues. Recently at a fight card at Turning Stone, Oren was surprised to see how big my younger son had become!

There are other youtube recordings of Oren speaking to a variety of audiences that I'm sure you would enjoy. I think the world of him.

On a curious note: when I was in the first grade, the principal talked to my class about the town's history, including when Mohawk leader Joseph Brant was involved in the Revolutionary War there. I wa excited to tell my parents and siblings about what I had learned. My mother told me that her relatives from PA were friends with Brant, and that he had them adopt two Indian childen orphaned by the war.

wnylib

(21,433 posts)
63. When I was in grade school, the only things
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:52 AM
Dec 2019

we learned about Native people in our area were

1. the origin of our city's name (for the Erie nation obliterated in war with the Seneca) and

2. Chief Cornplanter (Gaiantwake) and his half brother, Handsome Lake (Sganyadaiyo), the Seneca prophet and founder of the Longhouse religion.

We were told how Cornplanter's peace.negotiations.with Native nations in the western Great Lakes region prevented war against the new US after the Revolution. Also learned about his land grant from President Washington "in perpetuity" for Cornplanter's peace efforts.

Then, when I was 12, that land was submerged by the Kinzua Dam project.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
64. Parker's book on
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:07 PM
Dec 2019

the Code of Handsome Lake is a fascinating read. (All of his books are.) Handsome Lake was an important figure at a very difficult time for the Iroquois and other Indians of the northeast. His vision while in a coma was extraordinary, and many of his predictions per the environment are coming to pass in our lifetimes.

His combining the Great Law with Quaker influences helped people survive. It was unfortunate that in his final years, his mind was not clear.Perhaps the earlier years of alcohol abuse took a toll. He is buried near the Longhouse at Onondaga.

Cornplanter was a highly intelligent leader, who understood the connections between the Original Instructions and the Great Law of Peace, and was able to apply them to the circumstances of his time. Surely he was important enough that his role should be taught in public schools today. In decades past, Paul tasked me with speaking at schools in our region about these issues.

Paul spoke seven languages, and loved the history of words. The Erie, as you likely know, wre named after the panther ....and certainly anyone who has heard a panther in the "wild" knows the sounds are erie, indeed!

Response to H2O Man (Reply #64)

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
43. Thank you!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:10 AM
Dec 2019

My four children are wonderful. Luckily, they all are interested in geneology, and have all taken one or more DNA tests. Otherwise, I'd wonder if I was really their father, as they are all much better human beings than me!

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
44. Thanks, burrowowl!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:13 AM
Dec 2019

It makes sense that we can make a powerful political action group on this forum. There are so many good, intelligent people here. I love the discussions on DU, and think we can channel our energies into meaningful actions.

FailureToCommunicate

(14,013 posts)
30. Good ideas. I will write and say, "Dear Sen McConnell...
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 04:55 PM
Dec 2019



(I know the postal service is still screening snail mail to Congress, so one has to hope any letter actually arrives in time.)

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,328 posts)
31. let Moscow Mitch know he can be primaried ...
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 05:20 PM
Dec 2019

Tell Moscow Mitch that he can be ditched if he doesn't get that cheating, spoiled New York brat out of office. (He's seen the billboards that advise ditching Putin's bitch).

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
48. It would seem
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:24 AM
Dec 2019

that Mitch must be aware that supporting Trump contains as many risks as being honest and convicting him. We need to reinforce that thought.

kentuck

(111,082 posts)
35. I am really interested in this Senate trial, when he is impeached.
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 11:32 PM
Dec 2019

I will be surprised if Chief Justice sits idly by and does not get involved in some way. When the Republicans attempt to bring in irrelevant witnesses, as if they made him withhold the funds from Ukraine? As if they were the ones that committed the crime of bribery? As if everyone at the trial is more guilty than Donald Trump?

Someone real will have to call it to order.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
49. Thanks!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:29 AM
Dec 2019



I think that Chief Justice Roberts is fully aware of the threats Trump poses to the institutions of our government. I think that he can be a positive influence on the trial.

napi21

(45,806 posts)
51. If you use snail-mail, your letter will never be read befeore thetrial is over!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 12:57 AM
Dec 2019

What you say USED TO BE TRUE, but they're still opening and inspecting every piece of mail and pkg. that's sent to the WH, Cong. & the Senate. How long that takes I have no idea, but assuming that job is NOT a top priority, I'm thinking it's going to be a very long time before anyone in the Senate ever sees it.

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
53. On a totally different subject....
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 01:34 AM
Dec 2019

Who are you picking in tomorrow's fight? Joshua or Ruiz?

And who do you think will win Fury vs. Wilder II, assuming it happens in February?

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
59. Good questions.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:19 AM
Dec 2019

Elsewhere on this thread, I did bring boxing history into the discussion. Since heavyweight champions tend to reflect and/or define their era -- Dempsey, Louis, and Ali, for example -- I think it is all connected ....if only in my mind! (grin)

Both fights are 50-50 on paper. Both Joshua and Ruiz have dropped some weight since their first bout, which could make it a tougher fight. The factor I keep thinking of is the mental aspect -- first, many champions reach a higher level in winning the title. The Cassius Clay who entered the ring against Liston wasn't as vulnerable as the Muhammad Ali that left the ring, as Angelo Dundee told my brother. Ruiz is likely to be a better fighter tonight, than he was when he won the title.

Joshua, on the other hand, may have some self-doubts that he didn't have before. That concerns me. However, he had only a short time to prepare for Ruiz being his late-minute substitute opponent last time. He may be as driven as Floyd Patterson on the night Floyd became the first to regain the heavyweight title.

I think Wilder deserves better promotion in the US than he gets. Consider how much the Ortiz fight cost to watch, versus the relatively low effort to really promote it. Despite his flaws, Wilder is a capable and always dangerous fighter.

Fury is the question mark. Again, a lot has to do with mental preparation. In many ways, he has come to no longer love boxing. That is perhaps understandable. Training camps are never pleasant. Fights take a toll on a man, even if one wins. While if Tyson trains hard and is focused, he could win, I'd give Wilder a slight edge, simply because he has been more active and clearly loves his role in the sport.

However, once that first bell rings, anything could happen in either fight. I suppose we learned that in the first Joshua vs Ruiz fight!

What do you think?

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
66. Well, my knowledge on the subject is somewhat limited. But I do enjoy your analyses a lot.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 01:02 PM
Dec 2019

Last edited Sat Dec 7, 2019, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

OK, I will give it a try. Here goes:

I heard that a lot of things threw Joshua off his mental game in the last fight. I can totally see how that would happen, in spite of a fighter's basic skill level. I remember when I was playing tennis all sorts of things would effect me, positively or negatively, on a given day.

I think the last minute substitution had to be an unsettling adjustment for him. And he was fighting outside of the UK for the first time. Finally, I thought I read that there was even something different about the ramp he walked down, and his ring entrance. They said that it was shorter than he was used to and it gave him less time to get his head into the game.

And then there is the question of whether he had a stye in his eye. If that is true then I cannot imagine it did not affect his performance.

Now as for Deontay Wilder, it sounds like your description of him is similar to the way you once described Rocky Marciano to me. I could be totally wrong, so please correct me if I am. But you talked about how Marciano was probably not as good as Holmes in his prime, and likely would have lost to him, but on the other hand, Rocky might very well have KOed him. Actually, I think I will just go into my inbox and recopy what you had written me, LOL.

"In truth, Larry probably would have defeated Rocky. But, Marciano might have KOed him. For if Rocky hurt an opponent, they didn't survive."

This kind of sounds like the way you are describing Wilder, and it does correspond to what I have heard about him in the past, at least if I understood it correctly. What do you think, is Wilder a Rocky Marciano type fighter?

Finally, maybe Tyson Fury still loves the sport but just isn't the type of person who comes across that way. I don't know nearly enough about him to make that judgement. But some people are just like that....they are hard to read.

kentuck

(111,082 posts)
56. It is an historic time.
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 09:06 AM
Dec 2019

The politicians in Washington are going to have to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

H2O Man

(73,536 posts)
60. Definitely!
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 11:22 AM
Dec 2019

I don't think this was what anyone in the Senate signed up for when they ran for office. But, no matter if they want it to be or not, they are faced with the most important issue possible. It will define their place in history.

cp

(6,626 posts)
68. Just sent my postcard
Sat Dec 7, 2019, 02:17 PM
Dec 2019

Thank you for the thoughtful post, H2O Man.

(Believe postcards get through much quicker.)

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